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== Under what conditions can [[WP:IGNOREALLRULES]] override MoS?  (re: closing comma in MDY dates) ==

{{archive top|<small>([[Wikipedia:Non-admin closure|non-admin closure]])</small> BMK has been blocked for violating 3RR for 48 hours by {{U|MSGJ}}. I don't see any point in continuing this. If there are any other concerns once the block expires, a new thread should be started. [[User:Amaury|Amaury]] (<small>[[User talk:Amaury|talk]] &#124; [[Special:Contributions/Amaury|contribs]]</small>) 01:33, 20 February 2019 (UTC)}}

[[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] has invoked [[WP:IGNOREALLRULES]] to override the guidance in [[MOS:DATE]] to editwar over date formatting at [[Joey Gibson (political activist)]].  He apparently has an issue with the trailing comma in American-style MDY date formats, declaring them [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Joey_Gibson_(political_activist)&diff=884038531&oldid=884038012 "still not needed",] [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Joey_Gibson_(political_activist)&diff=884039136&oldid=884038974 "when a comma is not needed, it's not needed".]

::  Gibson hosted a rally on April 2, 2017{{red|␣}} which was met by thousands of counter-protesters. ''(BMK's version)''
::  Gibson hosted a rally on April 2, 2017{{green|,}} which was met by thousands of counter-protesters. ''(MoS-compliant version)''

Ignoring the editwarring violations, under what conditions can [[WP:IGNOREALLRULES]] legitimately be invoked to override the MoS, and does this case fall within them? [[User:Curly Turkey|Curly&nbsp;"JFC"&nbsp;Turkey]]&nbsp;<span style="color: Red;">🍁</span>&nbsp;[[User talk:Curly Turkey|''¡gobble!'']] 04:12, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
:Let me repeat what I wrote on [[Talk:Joey Gibson (political activist)]]:
::'''Well, here's how I look at it, if a comma ain't needed, there's no necessity for a comma.  Read the sentence out loud, there's no pause after that date, it flows naturally into "which was met by...".  That's not case with a previous date, "On February 25, 2018, Gibson announced..." where a pause is natural.  The comma is the pause, so a comma is appropriate there. ... Not a long pause, a tiny caesura, a mere uptake of breath.'''
:Why is this the case? Because a comma is not an abstract typographical invention disconnected from reality, its purpose is to mimic how people talk. After all, writing is merely (merely?) codified speech, which existed long before writing, and long before the comma.{{parabr}} Sometimes, many time, maybe even '''''most''''' times, a comma after a date is appropriate, but no grammarian will tell you that is '''''always''''' the case.  There are times when not having a comma is the better choice. [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 04:30, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
:: "it's purpose is to mimic how people talk"{{cn}} – We're not seriously going to buy the idea that a comma is a {{em|visual pause}}, are we?  If this is a legitimate argument, then [[MOS:DATE]] will have to change. [[User:Curly Turkey|Curly&nbsp;"JFC"&nbsp;Turkey]]&nbsp;<span style="color: Red;">🍁</span>&nbsp;[[User talk:Curly Turkey|''¡gobble!'']] 04:34, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
:::CT, do you know '''''anything''''' about this subject?  If you're just kind of vamping in the hope that you'll pick up some traction, you're in danger of exposing your ignorance. And I said nothing about a "visual pause".  I am talking about talking, what does visuality have to do with it?  What do '''''you''''' think the function of a comma is?{{parabr}}And, of course, the notion that [[MOS:DATE]] has to be completely revamped is hogwash, pure rhetorical overkill. [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 04:42, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
::::{{small|Incidentally, if anyone's interested, the '''''real''''' reason this is here is that Curly Turkey just flat out doesn't like me.  I've never actually been able to determine why, but he seems to think that I done him wrong at some time in the past, so now he occasionally parachutes into an article I'm editing and sticks in his oar -- as he did on [[Joey Gibson (political activist)]], an article he's never edited before today -- just to kinda of annoy me.  He used to do it more often, but this is the first instance in a while.  It's the kind of thing you just have to put up with, like sand in your ice cream at the beach. [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 04:42, 19 February 2019 (UTC)}}
:::::BTW, I think I'm done with this discussion.  I don't believe that Curly Turkey's complaint is anything more than another way to lash out at me, it's not in any way a serious request -- does he really expect the MOS talk page to decide what the proper usage of [[WP:IAR]] is??  That's something that's been discussed from Day 1, and has not been, and can not be, determined -- that's really the genius of IAR.  In any case, it's outside the scope of this page, and CT's complaint is disingenuous at best, so I'm outta here. [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 04:47, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
: Well, [[User:Primergrey|Primergrey]] "parachuted in" to [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Joey_Gibson_(political_activist)&diff=884041969&oldid=884039314 revert] BMK, and BMK [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Joey_Gibson_(political_activist)&curid=55506101&diff=884044910&oldid=884041969 3RRed] it back.  Is this legit? [[User:Curly Turkey|Curly "JFC" Turkey]] <span style="color: Red;">🍁</span> [[User talk:Curly Turkey|''¡gobble!'']] 06:20, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
:::I missed that, but I also just put the comma back, so that's a 3:1 ratio at least. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 06:44, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
::I've had trouble with BeyondMyKen before. Seems to be a hard-liner who won't compromise or yield to common sense—including the common sense contained within our centralised guidelines. To override MOS, in my view, requires cogent argument in a particular context. Where has that been expressed? [[User:Tony1|<b style="color:darkgreen">Tony</b>]] [[User talk:Tony1|<span style="color:darkgreen">(talk)</span>]] 06:27, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
* As phrased, this is a nonsensical question, seeking to restrain an anti-rule – an escape valve to get away from unhelpful application of rules – by trying to pin it down with an unhelpful rule about when it can be invoked. :-)<p>More seriously, and as to the case at hand, this simply isn't an IAR matter, it's someone editwarring to impose a style quirk that reliable sources consider substandard English. IAR is invoked when a rule impedes someone from objectively {{em|improving the encyclopedia}}. Defying punctation norms to suit personal whims is objectively a detriment to our content, and subjectively an improvement only to someone who shares the exact same peccadillo and who is apparently in a class of people who do not read or absorb style guides (not just ours, but "real world" ones, which are consistent: parenthesizing commas always come in pairs except when the second one is replaced by other punctuation like "." or "?"). That's actually a fairly large class of people, but they're still in the wrong on this and have no business insisting on style changes, against either general English norms as codified in major style guides, or against our own style guidelines (based on the former). There simply is no IAR to be found anywhere in that. There's no rule against saying "IAR!" in your revert, but it will not save you from a 3RR block, etc. No one takes IAR claims seriously when the rule is not being defied to actually make an improvement.</p><p><small>[I decline to comment on whether there's a specific [[WP:TE|tendentiousness]] pattern with BMK in particular, since WT:MOS isn't a disciplinary venue. If this sort of thing seems habitual, and user- and article-talk discussion has no effect on it, it may be a [[WP:ANI]] or [[WP:ANEW]] matter, or even [[WP:AE]] if they've received a {{tlx|Ds/alert|mos}} within the last 12 months and are being genuinely disruptive.]</small><br /><span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'">— [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 06:44, 19 February 2019 (UTC)</p>
*To answer the original question, there are self-evidently no "conditions" under which IAR can or cannot be invoked. If we start attaching rules to IAR then we're kind of missing the point of it. In the specific case mentioned here, however, there doesn't seem to be a good case for ignoring the rules. It would create a strange exception to every other usage in the prose of articles. &nbsp;&mdash;&nbsp;[[User:Amakuru|Amakuru]] ([[User talk:Amakuru|talk]]) 07:43, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
{{archive bottom}}

*And to address the underlying {{em|actual style question}} behind the dispute: BMK's allegation amounts to "everyone arguing against me is wrong, and MoS is wrong, obviously, cuz everyone knows a comma doesn't go here", but this is just flat-out counterfactual. To quote from ''The Chicago Manual of Style'' (16th ed., sect. 6.17, "Commas in pairs"), since I have that handy in digital form:
** 'Whenever a comma is used to set off an element (such as “1928” or “Minnesota” in the first two examples below), a second comma is required if the phrase or sentence continues beyond the element being set off. This principle applies to many of the uses for commas described in this section [No, I'm not pasting in the entire section]. An exception is made for commas within the title of a work (third example): {{xt|June 5, 1928, lives on in the memories of only a handful of us.}}; {{xt|Sledding in Duluth, Minnesota, is facilitated by that city’s hills and frigid winters.}}; but {{xt|''Look Homeward, Angel'' was not the working title of the manuscript.}}'
:What's probably happened here is that BMK reads a lot of certain news publishers' output, with a [[house style]] that drops a lot of punctuation, and has then assumed that particular "abbreviated" style is some kind of universal norm and rule in English. It just isn't true, and WP is [[WP:NOT#NEWS|not written in news style]], as a matter of actual policy. That said, it is never required to cite off-site style guides to bring an article into conformity with MoS; people can't "IAR" you for not having book citations. It is enough that the guideline says what it does, since WP built it with editorial consensus from such sources in the first place (and more importantly from years of negotiation about, and adjustment for, what is actually best for Wikipedia's needs to communicate to its audience; it is not a rote regurgitation of any particular "rule books").  I'm just citing ''CMoS'' on this particular matter to put away any doubt about this comma nit-pick, about the idea that MoS has some kind of "mistake" or "made up nonsense" in it.  This should forestall any kind of "I wanna delete this line from MoS because it's wrong" thread; let's just disprove that idea right this second and save everyone the trouble.<br /><span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 11:01, 19 February 2019 (UTC)</p>

This user has done the same removing a comma following a state name: [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Frank_Gehry&diff=prev&oldid=883952058&diffmode=source]. [[User:Reywas92|Reywas92]]<sup>[[User talk:Reywas92|'''Talk''']]</sup> 19:55, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
::I actually predicted that would be the case: "I'm almost willing to bet cash you wrongly try to delete those commas, too." [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User_talk:SMcCandlish&type=revision&diff=884065614&oldid=884054756&diffmode=source] Heh. This is why I'm certain it's due to importing style ideas from somewhere else and mistakenly treating them as something like a [[natural law]]. It fits a specific pattern common in some flavors of news journalism, an insistence on throwing away certain punctuation to save trivial amounts of space (at the expense of clarity). This problem of "I learned and prefer {{var|X}} from [insert one of: my favorite news site, my job, my 5th grade teacher, Daddy, the obscure style manual required in my community-college English class], and since I know it better I will assert that it is the One True Way to write and that MoS is wrong" is a pretty common cause of MoS-related grumbling. But there's not much we can do about it, other than be patient; people do eventually come around to the fact that this is a guideline about how to write WP not an article describing "official standards" of English. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 04:09, 20 February 2019 (UTC)
: That's a case that's been the subject of debate—whether there should be a comma when the placename is used as a [[noun adjunct]].  I seem to recall there was a discussion about it just recently, but I don't recall if there was a consensus on how to handle it. [[User:Curly Turkey|Curly&nbsp;"JFC"&nbsp;Turkey]]&nbsp;<span style="color: Red;">🍁</span>&nbsp;[[User talk:Curly Turkey|''¡gobble!'']] 01:19, 20 February 2019 (UTC)
::If a preponderance of real-world style guides do not advise drawing such a distinction (or even mention one), and/or there's not a truly compelling Wikipedia-specific reason to draw it (like frequent hair-pulling disputes about it), inserting some MoS line-item about this involves a risk of it being interpreted as exactly the kind of "made-up nonsense" that people fear MoS contains or will contain.<!--
--><p>I can't see a reason that we'd treat a noun-phrase adjunct (an NP acting as an adjectival modifier of another noun) differently; there's nothing broken about "They sold their Clovis, California, home in 2014."  It doesn't structurally make sense as "They sold their Clovis, California home in 2014.", though most people's brains wouldn't melt. But trying to lay out a rule for editors to drop the second comma in that but retain it in "They bought a house in Clovis, California, in 1998" would be a [[WP:CREEP]] nightmare of the kind we've already had to wrestle with before: lots of "I just can't get it" problems, and people disputing it as nonsense or at best as an attested style that's too complicated to employ here.</p><!--
--><p>When such a place name is used in a larger compound construction (the adjectival noun phrase being just part of the compound modifier), like "They sold their Clovis, California-based business in 2014", the hyphen is a replacement for the second comma, just as would be terminal punctuation ("They moved to Weed, Texas.") I don't think even ''Chicago'' spells all this out very clearly (as it does for actual terminal punctuation), though their examples illustrate such cases. But we don't seem to have any active problem of editors doing daft things like "They moved to Weed, Texas, – a much smaller community – the same year." (or "... –, the same year").  We just intuitively know that things like ", –" are not idiomatic in English writing. <small>[They actually used to be, in the 1800s; [[Ralph Waldo Emerson|Emerson]] used such patterns, as illustrated at [[WP:EMERSON]], an essay created for an unrelated reason.]</small><br /><span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 04:09, 20 February 2019 (UTC)</p>

== Discussion of the "Style discussions ongoing" talk page section ==
May I suggest that this section be kept at the ''top'' of the page? It's a losing battle keeping it at the bottom. BTW I added a hidden "Do not archive until 2029" tag so that problem's handled. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color: red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color: blue;">Eng</b>]] 08:05, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
:I'm not much caring; someone wanted to put into some kind of sidebar template or something.  I only bother moving it back to the bottom when updating it anyway. [shrug]  <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 11:04, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
:This should probably be on [[Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Discussions of note]] or some such (deliberately not using the 'noticeboard' nomenclature given the past-year-or-two's discussion about having a MOS noticeboard), with some active content transcluded here into some {{tl|to do}}/{{tl|cent}}-ish kind of thing and the inactive content not. --[[User:Izno|Izno]] ([[User talk:Izno|talk]]) 13:56, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
::Perhaps Izno is right, but I've moved this to the top of the page for the time being. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color: red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color: blue;">Eng</b>]] 14:20, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
:::Yeah, there are multiple ways to approach this.  I didn't recall that the noticeboard idea had been discussed that recently (it was an RfC something like 5–8 years ago). I don't think a noticeboard is an appropriate direction, since we do not "enforce" MoS like a policy, and there's already been F-loads too much drama resulting from certain individuals' attempts to make MoS excessively emphatic, nit-picky, and at times nationalistic. We don't need a [[WP:NOT#BUREAUCRACY|bureaucracy]] for handling formatting trivia, and tensions already run too high too often about such matters. (If someone's being genuinely disruptive, ANI or AE or ANEW can and does already handle it.) The kinds of "not a noticeboard" informational pages used for topical tracking of deletion discussions are probably a better model (e.g. [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Sports]]). <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 23:29, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

== Pronunciation of redundant parts of foreign names ==

I'm asking for the general case, but my question arises more specifically from treatment of Thailand-related proper nouns. The current convention is to include the Thai spelling of a name after the bold title, followed by the pronunciation. But this leads to words which aren't part of the English name appearing in the transcribed version. Take [[Chulalongkorn University]], for example. The name in Thai is {{langx|th|จุฬาลงกรณ์มหาวิทยาลัย}}, {{RTGS|Chulalongkon Mahawitthayalai}}. The IPA pronunciation is given for the entire name, but the ''Mahawitthayalai'' part means "university", and is actually redundant. [[Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Pronunciation]] says, "If the name consists of more than one word, include pronunciation only for the words that need it (all of [[Jean van Heijenoort]] but only ''Cholmondeley'' in [[Thomas P. G. Cholmondeley]])." But is {{IPA|th|ma.hǎː.wít.tʰa.jāː.lāj|}} needed here? Readers who look at the bold title '''Chulalongkorn University''' will expect to only find the pronunciation for ''Chulalongkorn'', and will be confused where the ''Mahawitthayalai'' comes from. But readers who are looking at the Thai name would also presumably want to know the pronunciation in its entirety. How should this be dealt with? 

Another example is [[Charoen Krung Road]]. It's {{lang|th|ถนนเจริญกรุง}} in Thai, {{RTGS|Thanon Charoen Krung}}. But the &#123;&#123;[[Template:RTGS|RTGS]]&#125;&#125; template isn't needed here, since the article title already follows the RTGS transcription. So the appearance of {{IPA|th|tʰā.nǒn|}} in the pronunciation guide is even more confusing to reader who doesn't know Thai. There are also thousands of other streets, bridges railway stations, etc. Would repeating the pronunciation of the same few words for all of them be too redundant? Should they be included or omitted? --[[User:Paul 012|Paul_012]] ([[User talk:Paul 012|talk]]) 02:36, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
: It's an editorial decision, but I agree with you—the lead really only needs the IPA for ''Chulalongkorn'', and probably doesn't need even the Thai transcription, unless there are multiple ways ''Chulalongkorn'' could be written in Thai. [[User:Curly Turkey|Curly&nbsp;"JFC"&nbsp;Turkey]]&nbsp;<span style="color: Red;">🍁</span>&nbsp;[[User talk:Curly Turkey|''¡gobble!'']] 03:44, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

== RfC on drug name ==

Requests for comment are sought at {{section link|Talk:2010–2017 Toronto serial homicides#RfC on drug name}} on how to state the name of a drug mentioned in court documents about a living person. –&nbsp;[[User:Reidgreg|Reidgreg]] ([[User talk:Reidgreg|talk]]) 16:34, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

== Yet another dash question ==

Very simple question: should it be '''[[Deer Park–West Werribee railway line]]''', or '''Deer Park – West Werribee railway line'''? 

I moved it to its current location a while ago after noting "Los Angeles–New York flight" was preferred by [[MOS:DASH]], but now I’m not sure if it falls into the category of ranges with spaces in the elements. Any advice is appreciated. [[User:Triptothecottage|Triptothecottage]] ([[User talk:Triptothecottage|talk]]) 09:41, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
:<small>Oh boy, this will really put the cat among the pigeons. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color: red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color: blue;">Eng</b>]] 09:58, 24 February 2019 (UTC)</small>
:To put it another way, there is an inconsistency near [[MOS:ENBETWEEN]], where the first bullet includes this example:
:: {{Tq|a New York–Los Angeles flight}}
: (unspaced), but the subsection just before that says:
:: {{Tq|The en dash in a range is always unspaced, except when either or both elements of the range include at least one space}}
: and lists examples like:
:: {{Tq|Christmas 2001 – Easter 2002}}
: I suggest that the first example shown above be changed to:
:: {{Tq|a New York – Los Angeles flight}}
: (spaced) to be consistent with the written text. <span style="color:red">—[</span>[[User:AlanM1|<span style="font-variant:small-caps;color:green">Alan</span><span style="color:blue">M</span><span style="color:purple">1</span>]]([[User talk:AlanM1#top|talk]])<span style="color:red">]—</span> 11:58, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
:::The difference is the first range are dates, while the flight example are places. When the section was hashed out in a massive RFC some years ago, there was strong opposition to having "New York–Los Angeles flight" be punctuated differently from "Chicago–Atlanta flight". I don't think it should be changed. [[User:Oknazevad|oknazevad]] ([[User talk:Oknazevad|talk]]) 13:49, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
::::Some of us didn't like the spaces in dates, either, but that's how it came down.  I would not be in favor of re-opening any of this, given all the last 8 years of working toward consistency with the consensus guidelines. [[User:Dicklyon|Dicklyon]] ([[User talk:Dicklyon|talk]]) 19:25, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
:::::Agreed. This isn't worth changing, even if we could agree on what to change it to. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 10:20, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
::<s>I don't see any inconsistency.</s> [[MOS:ENTO]] (ranges that might otherwise be expressed with to or through) and [[MOS:ENBETWEEN]] (compounds when the connection might otherwise be expressed with to, versus, and, or between) are distinct, separate subsections. I don't see any reason to presume that the spacing rule described under [[MOS:ENTO]] would apply to [[MOS:ENBETWEEN]]. --[[User:Paul 012|Paul_012]] ([[User talk:Paul 012|talk]]) 18:59, 24 February 2019 (UTC) PS Well, one could say that prescribing different styles for different uses of the dash is inconsistent, but the guidance is clearly structured, and I don't think there's significant potential for confusion in the way the MOS page itself is written. Though it is indeed a bit counter-intuitive and could confuse editors who hadn't taken the time to study the MOS. --[[User:Paul 012|Paul_012]] ([[User talk:Paul 012|talk]]) 19:12, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
:::When I wrote the above, I missed the hatnote on the earlier section {{Tq|Here the ranges are ranges of numbers, dates, or times...}}. I change my objection to that it's inconsistent and counter-intuitive to have different styles depending on the use case, even acknowledging there may be underlying reasons for it. MOS should not be just (or even primarily) for use by experts{{Snd}} they don't need it. <span style="color:red">—[</span>[[User:AlanM1|<span style="font-variant:small-caps;color:green">Alan</span><span style="color:blue">M</span><span style="color:purple">1</span>]]([[User talk:AlanM1#top|talk]])<span style="color:red">]—</span> 20:05, 24 February 2019 (UTC)

Good grief. Thanks for the answers – I was not interested in upsetting anyone's apple cart, I just wanted to know what the correct interpretation of the consensus guideline was. I missed the hatnote too, which makes it quite plain. [[User:Triptothecottage|Triptothecottage]] ([[User talk:Triptothecottage|talk]]) 11:28, 25 February 2019 (UTC)

==IAR for [[MOS:IM]]==
The MOS is also quite clear with regards to certain image placement: "Each image should be inside the level 2 section to which it relates, within the section defined by the most recent <nowiki>==Heading==</nowiki> delimited by two equal signs, or at the top of the lead section. Do not place images immediately above section headings."

The same user as above believes that because [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=St._Francis_Dam&diff=prev&oldid=884012957&diffmode=source "MOS is not policy, it is not mandatory"] that this should be ignored for no clear reason. He claims it provides [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=St._Francis_Dam&diff=next&oldid=884013176&diffmode=source "VISUAL BALANCE"] to the article, but in this case the images are cleanly alternating left and right with no excess images stacking on top of each other so putting the images within the relevant sections is perfectly visually balanced. I think they look bad being in the wrong section and breaking the horizontal header line. What would be a good reason to ignore the MOS for image placement? [[User:Reywas92|Reywas92]]<sup>[[User talk:Reywas92|'''Talk''']]</sup> 19:55, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
:(a) I can't even tell what the section you quoted is trying to say, and (b) MOS is to be applied with common sense, which may override rigidly stated rules. I can't really tell what's going on in the particular article you linked. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color: red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color: blue;">Eng</b>]] 00:53, 20 February 2019 (UTC)
::Same user as in the IAR thread above, already blocked for similar "my way or the highway" editwarring.  It's not a valid [[WP:IAR]], since what the editor wants to do isn't an improvement of any kind, but introduced problems for no benefit.  For one thing, it separated the image from the material to which it pertains, and as a more immediately obvious problem, it confusingly caused the heading to wrap to the right of the image (though this might vary by viewport size, etc.)<p>Meta: We (the entire community, or rather the image and layout geeks in it, who care) may need to revisit [[MOS:IMAGE]], [[Help:Pictures]], and image-related parts of [[MOS:ACCESS]] to make sure they all still make sense in 2019 and on mobile devices.  I'm not sure all of this material has kept pace with display issues, former display issues possibly no longer being issues, changes to MediaWiki, and so on.  A lot of this stuff probably needs a round of focused test-casing to see what actually happens today under what circumstances, on the desktop and mobile sites, and on different devices.<br /><span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 04:25, 20 February 2019 (UTC)</p>
::This section says that the images should be placed in the relevant section below the header like at [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=St._Francis_Dam&diff=next&oldid=884012957&diffmode=source#Present-day_remains], not in the previous section above the header like at [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=St._Francis_Dam&diff=prev&oldid=884012957&diffmode=source#Present-day_remains]. I see no common sense argument that the latter should override the MOS-compliant former. [[User:Reywas92|Reywas92]]<sup>[[User talk:Reywas92|'''Talk''']]</sup> 08:12, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

Apparently my bringing [[Daniel Burnham]] [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Daniel_Burnham&type=revision&diff=885773699&oldid=885772589&diffmode=source into compliance with the MOS] is "harassment". [[User:Beyond My Ken]] has placed the images back above the header lines in the previous section, claiming "better layout" with no explanation why this is better. Thoughts? {{ping|SMcCandlish}} [[User:Reywas92|Reywas92]]<sup>[[User talk:Reywas92|'''Talk''']]</sup> 08:11, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
:{{ping|Reywas92}} I put it back to what it's supposed to be [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=St._Francis_Dam&type=revision&diff=884201653&oldid=884013627&diffmode=source]. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 11:12, 2 March 2019 (UTC)

== Why did my addition get reverted? (Word Variation and Repetitiveness) ==

Hi Wikipedia folks,
I would like to know why my addition to the article with the section titled “Word Variation and Repetitiveness” was reverted/deleted. Repetitiveness is a problem I see in Wikipedia pages sometimes, and there’s no mention of it on this article, even though this would be the perfect place to have it. As the spirit of that addition would be productive and helpful for the article, at the very least we should talk about it here instead of reverting it. Or I can make the addition, and the other users who are more knowledgeable about how these pages work can tweak and edit it as they see fit. I greatly welcome and appreciate any feedback, insights, or comments. Thanks everyone!
Thanks [[User:Mrbeastmodeallday|Mrbeastmodeallday]] ([[User talk:Mrbeastmodeallday|talk]]) 21:44, 5 March 2019 (UTC)

:Seems to be: '''New content added to this page should directly address a ''persistently recurring'' style issue.''' As this page, including this talk page, applies to all articles, it should be read by many people.  There is an unusually high bar for additions to the article page, and even for this talk page. [[User:Gah4|Gah4]] ([[User talk:Gah4|talk]]) 22:07, 5 March 2019 (UTC)
::Our Manual of Style is already very long; it has to be because Wikipedia is an international encyclopedia that covers almost everything, but it doesn't need to cover every aspect of good writing. It just needs to cover the things that are particular to Wikipedia, things that have caused conflict, places where standardization is helpful, etc. We want the MoS to be readable and no longer than it needs to be. I hope that helps. <span style="background-color:#EEF6FD"><span class="nowrap">&nbsp;[[User:SchreiberBike|SchreiberBike ]]&#124;[[User talk:SchreiberBike#top| ⌨&nbsp;]]</span></span> 22:20, 5 March 2019 (UTC)
:::Repetitiveness and other forms of redundancy are frequent writing faults, but a matter of basic copy-editing; they're not the sort of thing that people fight about. Most everything in MoS was added to forestall cyclical, same-every-time editorial disputes, and the few exceptions are matters of technical need. [[WP:How to write better articles]] is a better place for general writing advice, including on redundancy. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 10:09, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

== The birthplace that changed ==

Is the way that birthplaces are described in the infoboxes at [[Gandhi]], [[Miloš Zeman]] and [[Andrej Babiš]] described in a MOS somewhere? [[User:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|Gråbergs Gråa Sång]] ([[User talk:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|talk]]) 09:28, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
: Is [[Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Capital_letters#Place_names| this]] what you mean? Not sure if you meant that those infoboxes are using "now" in the birthplace. Also [[Template:Infobox_person]] has some guidance in the table, but that's not the infobox being used in those articles. I often take out "now" or "present day" out of articles. It depends on the situation. But I figure that most of the place names are linked anyhow and if anyone really wants to know, they can click the link and see what the current place name is. I just did this for an article that kept saying something like "Bombay (present day Mumbai)". Other editors may have additional guidance. [[User:PopularOutcast|<b style="color:#008080">Popular</b><b style="color:#8A2BE2">Outcast</b>]]<sup>[[User talk:PopularOutcast|talk2me!]]</sup> 14:58, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

::Thanks for replying. What I meant was "British India" vs just "India" etc. Your first link says "If a different name is appropriate in a given historical or other context, then that may be used instead, although it is normal to follow the first occurrence of such a name with the standard modern name in parentheses." The template says "Use the name of the birthplace at the time of birth, e.g.: Saigon (prior to 1976) or Ho Chi Minh City (post-1976)." IMO this is clear enough, but that is my view. Thanks again! [[User:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|Gråbergs Gråa Sång]] ([[User talk:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|talk]]) 16:01, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

== Punctuation (commas) in connection with title(s) and honorific suffixes ==

{{user|AlbanGeller}} and myself had a discussion on his talk page regarding when/where/whether to use commas where title(s) and honorific suffixes occur (such as in the article [[Peter Carington, 6th Baron Carrington]]), and he suggested that I bring the subject up here to see if there could be more input.

[[User:HandsomeFella|HandsomeFella]] ([[User talk:HandsomeFella|talk]]) 08:49, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
:Use the comma. It's just better semantics with an appositive. Maybe more importantly, anyone not intimately familiar with generational labeling in English (and MOS's particular take on how to write that labeling), and British treatment of post-nominal titles, could easily misinterpret "Peter Carington 6th Baron Carrington" as "Peter Carington VI, Barron Carrington".  Some people's "death to commas" habits (generally imported from [[WP:NOT#NEWS|news style]] and [[WP:SSF|highly specialized technical writing]]) has to give way to clear communication at Wikipedia. The majority of actual British usage I've seen (off-site, I mean) favors the commas, though I've not exhaustively researched this.  FWIW, ''Encyclopædia Britannica'' also includes the comma [https://www.britannica.com/biography/Peter-Carington-6th-Baron-Carrington-of-Upton]. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 10:39, 2 March 2019 (UTC)

::Actually, it was the comma after Lord Carrington's lifespan I was referring to. Pinging {{ping|SMcCandlish|AlbanGeller}}. [[User:HandsomeFella|HandsomeFella]] ([[User talk:HandsomeFella|talk]]) 19:14, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
:::Footnote ''k'' under [[MOS:COMMAS]] doesn't address round-bracket parentheses in particular, but it also doesn't suggest that what it does address is an exhaustive list. Since a clause-delimiting dash would merge with and replace the final comma of the appositive (in this case, a post-noms list with its own internal commas), and a dash-delimited parenthetical can be converted into a brackets-delimited one and vice versa, a round bracket in this kind of construction should also merge away that final comma. But if a bracketed parenthetical were properly part of an item being bracketed, it would still get a comma after it. That is, if the second post-nom in the list had its own brackets, e.g. "XY (Z)", a comma would come after that in the list of them. Unless it were the last of them and were followed by comma-replacing alternative punctuation per footnote ''k''.  :-) <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 20:19, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
:No, you absolutely do not need a comma after the dates. It looks ridiculous and it's not standard practice. I've deleted many of these extraneous commas over the years. As well as final commas after the list of postnoms but before the dates. Also completely pointless. -- [[User:Necrothesp|Necrothesp]] ([[User talk:Necrothesp|talk]]) 10:28, 5 March 2019 (UTC)
::Agree with others above. This is a case of two consecutive parentheticals: the comma-delimited post-noms and the parenthesis-delimited dates. Without the post-noms, no comma is necessary. With them, it could seem reasonable to include the dates as well (with a trailing comma to complete the list), which is what the Carington editor appears to have done. I would prefer to keep them separate because they have different purposes and delimiters. The left parenthesis terminates the post-noms and no comma follows the dates. Would be good for MOS to address this issue. [[User:Jmar67|Jmar67]] ([[User talk:Jmar67|talk]]) 05:13, 9 March 2019 (UTC)

== [[First-magnitude star]] or [[First magnitude star]]? ==
Circling back to the compound modifier question from above once more, it seems I have been "corrected" [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Template:POTD_protected/2019-02-26&curid=60063524&diff=884934277&oldid=884924482 here], when someone said should be "First magnitude star" rather than "First-magnitude star". Does that qualify as a valid exception? Usage in sources seems mixed. Pinging {{ping|Modulus12}} who made the change. &nbsp;&mdash;&nbsp;[[User:Amakuru|Amakuru]] ([[User talk:Amakuru|talk]]) 23:44, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
:Of course [https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=first+magnitude+star%2Cfirst-magnitude+star&year_start=1950&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1%3B%2Cfirst%20magnitude%20star%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2Cfirst%20-%20magnitude%20star%3B%2Cc0 it's mixed].  Useful hyphens are very often dropped in such contexts.  For our readers' sake, we prefer not to drop them. [[User:Dicklyon|Dicklyon]] ([[User talk:Dicklyon|talk]]) 23:58, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
:By the way, I do see the compound-modifier question above, but not a compound modifier question, if you get my drift. [[User:Dicklyon|Dicklyon]] ([[User talk:Dicklyon|talk]]) 00:01, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
::[[File:smiley.png|25px]] &nbsp;&mdash;&nbsp;[[User:Amakuru|Amakuru]] ([[User talk:Amakuru|talk]]) 00:05, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
:Your ping didn't work because you [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style&diff=884938029&oldid=884937839 didn't add it on a new line] (see [[Help:Fixing failed pings]]) but luckily I have this page on my watchlist. I've no objection to adding a hyphen now that the article has been moved. And in related POTD style discussions, I saw that the ''[[Coup d'état]]'' article was swapped back to italics... Not sure if anyone wants to re-open that debate. [[User:Modulus12|Modulus12]] ([[User talk:Modulus12|talk]]) 02:17, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
::Ha, that is ridiculous. There can be no "debate" - "coup d'etat" is a vastly more common English term than the actual textbook example of a non-foreign term "esprit de corps", which is given at [[MOS:FOREIGNITALICS]]. If people want to apply different rules then they should do it via a change in the MOS, not via individual articles. Thanks &nbsp;&mdash;&nbsp;[[User:Amakuru|Amakuru]] ([[User talk:Amakuru|talk]]) 09:35, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
:Hyphenate it. This is another [[WP:SSF]] case.  A phrase like this, without the hyphen, is only sensible to people already familiar with the subject matter. Without the familiarity, one wonders "What's a ''magnitude star'', and which one came second?". <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 10:55, 9 March 2019 (UTC)

== Contradiction between [[MOS:HYPHEN]] and [[MOS:ENBETWEEN]] ==

There seem to be two contradictory lines in the manual of style:
* {{xt|But never insert a hyphen into a proper name (Middle Eastern cuisine, not Middle-Eastern cuisine)}} (from the MOS:HYPHEN section)
* {{xt|but a family of Japanese-American traders or a family of Japanese Americans}} (from the MOS:ENBETWEEN section)
It seems to me that [[Japanese American]] would count as a proper name in the smae way that "Middle Eastern" would. This became an issue at [[WP:ERRORS]], regarding today's OTD entry {{xt|"African-American teenager Trayvon Martin was killed while walking..."}}. Should "African-American" be hyphenated? I don't have a strong opinion one way or the other, but it seems like one or other of the above lines needs amending. Thanks &nbsp;&mdash;&nbsp;[[User:Amakuru|Amakuru]] ([[User talk:Amakuru|talk]]) 09:23, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
:{{u|Amakuru}}, Middle Eastern cuisine is a proper name. ''Japanese-American'' in {{xt|Japanese-American traders}} is an adjective. Right above that section in ENBETWEEN it says {{xt|for people and things identifying with multiple nationalities, use a hyphen when applied as an adjective or a space as a noun.}} I am not sure there is a contradiction.  [[User:PopularOutcast|<b style="color:#008080">Popular</b><b style="color:#8A2BE2">Outcast</b>]]<sup>[[User talk:PopularOutcast|talk2me!]]</sup> 10:13, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
::{{ping|PopularOutcast}} so are you saying that the "Japanese American" and "African American" constructs are not equivalent? Because obviously "African" is a not a nationality, and the phrase "African American" is not meant to imply any connection with the continent of Africa. So the line you mention can't apply there. Thanks &nbsp;&mdash;&nbsp;[[User:Amakuru|Amakuru]] ([[User talk:Amakuru|talk]]) 10:19, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
:::{{u|Amakuru}}, I am saying they are equivalent. Your initial argument didn't seem to indicate that you objected to this format because you do not consider African a nationality. You may want to take a look at [[African Americans]], specifically the lead and the section on terminology.  [[User:PopularOutcast|<b style="color:#008080">Popular</b><b style="color:#8A2BE2">Outcast</b>]]<sup>[[User talk:PopularOutcast|talk2me!]]</sup> 10:31, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
:::Editing to add that on the front page ''African-American'' was used as an adjective in {{xt|African-American teenager}}. [[User:PopularOutcast|<b style="color:#008080">Popular</b><b style="color:#8A2BE2">Outcast</b>]]<sup>[[User talk:PopularOutcast|talk2me!]]</sup> 10:39, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
::::{{ping|PopularOutcast}} I don't "object" to anything, I'm just saying there's a contradiction that needs clearing up. Even if you think it's all crystal clear, the two lines are still open to different interpretations. Perhaps "Middle Eastern" (the adjective form of [[Middle East]]) and "African American" (the adjective form of [[African American]]) are different things, but if so that should be explicitly stated, and why. So that we don't need to debate this issue in the future. Thanks &nbsp;&mdash;&nbsp;[[User:Amakuru|Amakuru]] ([[User talk:Amakuru|talk]]) 10:45, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
:::::{{u|Amakuru}}, Right, so then back to my original reply. ENBETWEEN makes the distinction to add a hyphen for people or things that identify with multiple nationalities when used as an adjective. Middle Eastern is not multiple nationalities. I will stop here though because I don't see the contradiction and someone else might be better able to assist the both of us. Cheers.  [[User:PopularOutcast|<b style="color:#008080">Popular</b><b style="color:#8A2BE2">Outcast</b>]]<sup>[[User talk:PopularOutcast|talk2me!]]</sup> 11:00, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
::::::Alright, thanks. If what you say is correct, we just need to add a clarifier to the Middle Eastern line to that effect, but let's wait for some more views. (Although as I already noted, African is not a nationality... and an African American is not someone with dual citizenship between [[Africa]] and [[United States]], just so that's clear!) &nbsp;&mdash;&nbsp;[[User:Amakuru|Amakuru]] ([[User talk:Amakuru|talk]]) 11:05, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
:::::::Right, since "African American" is not a case of someone holding a dual citizenship or such, but the name of an ethnic group in one country, it shouldn't be hyphenated when used as an adjective. A quick survey of news and book sources confirms this. Removal of the hyphen was the correct action. And the sentence at the [[African Americans]] article should be removed; neither reference attached to it actually supports its claim, and they're just general references to the definition of the term that probably were separated from the preceding sentence (which they actually support) in a careless previous edit. [[User:Oknazevad|oknazevad]] ([[User talk:Oknazevad|talk]]) 13:06, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
:::::::PS, I did remove that sentence. I also want to note that recently there was a large set of proposed moves that was withdrawn by the proposed that essentially release on that sentence for arguing against those moves, which means the justification was in error. See [[Talk:African-American gospel]]. [[User:Oknazevad|oknazevad]] ([[User talk:Oknazevad|talk]]) 13:23, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
*Agree with oknazevad, PopularOutcase et al. [[User:Tony1|<b style="color:darkgreen">Tony</b>]] [[User talk:Tony1|<span style="color:darkgreen">(talk)</span>]] 13:09, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
*:{{ping|Tony1}} As far as I can tell, oknazevad and PopularOutcase are saying the opposite thing. ok is advocating no hyphen in African American teenager, while Popular is saying there should be a hyphen. What think you? &nbsp;&mdash;&nbsp;[[User:Amakuru|Amakuru]] ([[User talk:Amakuru|talk]]) 16:44, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
*::My bad. I agree with Oknazevad. No hyphen is by far the most-commonly used. And I somehow get the feeling (unverified) that African American writers prefer it. I presume the hyphen is used when it's a double adjective (is it? ... "African-American health statistics"?). [[User:Tony1|<b style="color:darkgreen">Tony</b>]] [[User talk:Tony1|<span style="color:darkgreen">(talk)</span>]] 04:28, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
*:::I would use the hyphen.  African American is a compound noun, and we don't really mean an American teenager who is African, but rather a teenager who is an African American.  It's a subtle enough difference in this case that dropping the hyphen is common and not really harmful, but I prefer consistent use of the hyphen to make it read easier.  And African American is a compound of two proper name terms, but is not a proper name like Golden Gate is (which is why we don't write Golden-Gate Bridge). [[User:Dicklyon|Dicklyon]] ([[User talk:Dicklyon|talk]]) 16:06, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
::::::[[User:Dicklyon|Dicklyon]]—I doubt either "African" or "American" is a proper name. Unsure of what a "proper name term" is, too. [[User:Tony1|<b style="color:darkgreen">Tony</b>]] [[User talk:Tony1|<span style="color:darkgreen">(talk)</span>]] 08:15, 10 March 2019 (UTC)
:::::::True.  But they're derivations from proper names, of the sort that get capped. [[User:Dicklyon|Dicklyon]] ([[User talk:Dicklyon|talk]]) 16:04, 10 March 2019 (UTC)
:::::But that's just it, "African American" is a single proper noun term, being the name for the ethnic group of people descended from slaves of the American south. I mean, at this point we're getting into fraught realms of discussion involving ethnic identities and national origins and such, which are almost inherently minefields, but it remains that while etymologically coming from two words, it's not a compound of two separate words but a single term. [[User:Oknazevad|oknazevad]] ([[User talk:Oknazevad|talk]]) 17:07, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
::::::I disagree that African American is a name for a group.  It's a descriptive compound.  [https://www.grammarphobia.com/blog/2012/01/hyphenated-americans.html Here] is one analysis that agrees with me.  I expect you have some on the other side? [[User:Dicklyon|Dicklyon]] ([[User talk:Dicklyon|talk]]) 18:52, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
:::::::Yep, they're all over the [[African American]] article. [[User:Oknazevad|oknazevad]] ([[User talk:Oknazevad|talk]]) 18:58, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
* For those advocating no hyphen, please consider ''Japanese English teacher'' (a Japanese teacher of English) versus ''Japanese-English teacher'' (a teacher of dual cultural backgrounds).  Without the hyphen, the "Japanese" describes "English teacher": [Japanese [English [teacher]]] vs [Japanese-English [teacher]].  Thus it's possible to misparse ''African American teenager'' as [African [American [teenager]]], whereas ''African-American teenager'' is unambiguous. [[User:Curly Turkey|Curly&nbsp;"JFC"&nbsp;Turkey]]&nbsp;<span style="color: Red;">🍁</span>&nbsp;[[User talk:Curly Turkey|''¡gobble!'']] 23:44, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
::Agree.  WP is not here to promote grammatical consistency or improvement, but to convey information to readers.  Phrases of the form "African American teenager" can be confusing to many readers if we don't hyphenate, so we hyphenate.  It's a simple as that.  --[[User:A D Monroe III|A&#8239;D&#8239;Monroe&#8239;III]]<sup>([[User talk:A D Monroe III#top|talk]])</sup>  18:20, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
* I disagree strongly with Oknevazad, for four reasons: Most strongly, it's for the same ambiguity-avoiding reason that Curly Turkey and A D Monroe III object. It's also a random-looking and, to many, inexplicable inconsistency with all other compound modifier hyphenation. The underlying premise is faulty; it's a true compound referring to Africa and [the United States of] America; there is no place "African America", so it it not like "New York" or "United States" not having a hyphen in them when used adjectivally. Finally, the claim that the non-hyphenated form (as an adjective) is the most common is failing to account for the fact that [[news style]] (which [[WP:NOT#NEWS|WP is not written in]]) accounts for the vast majority of occurrences of things like "African American traditions", and news style is unusually hostile to hyphenation, thus badly skewing the results; it's invalid statistics. And on a matter like this, we don't care about statistics anyway, but consistency and the likelihood that editors will comply with it rather than argue to death over it. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 10:31, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
*:That's all well and good, but in this case our MOS clearly says not to hyphenate proper names. And African American is clearly a proper name. Much like Middle East is. So we're in keeping with reliable sources and our house style by not doing so. Let's be honest, the phrase "African American teenager..." cannot possibly be misconstrued. But anwyay, I was thinking from Tony and Oknazevad's comments that this would be a fairly easy one to resolve, but it seems from the more recent comments like an RFC may be required to nail this one down properly. Thanks &nbsp;&mdash;&nbsp;[[User:Amakuru|Amakuru]] ([[User talk:Amakuru|talk]]) 21:31, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
*::"African American" is not a name (a type of noun), and not a noun at all. It is an adjective, as you clearly understand yourself when you use it to modify the noun "teenager". And for that matter, it is also incorrect that we must avoid hyphenating proper names. [[Peter Swinnerton-Dyer]], for instance, should be hyphenated. —[[User:David Eppstein|David Eppstein]] ([[User talk:David Eppstein|talk]]) 21:38, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
*:::{{ping|David Eppstein}} yes, I know "African American teenager" is an adjective, but then so is "Middle Eastern" in the textbook example at [[MOS:HYPHEN]], "Middle Eastern cuisine". The point is that the terms are adjectives which are derived from proper nouns. So we need to either (a) hyphenate both "African American" and "Middle Eastern" when they are used as adjectives, (b) hyphenate neither of them, or (c) explain in the MOS why one is hyphenated and the other is not. I don't mind which of a, b or c we choose, but we should do one of them. That's the purpose of my post here. As for Peter Swinnerton-Dyer, that's a bit of a red herring. The hyphen there is because it's part of his name, and is present in the noun form too. The more relevant point is that if he had, say, a theorem named after him we would always call it the "Peter Swinnerton-Dyer theorem", not the "Peter-Swinnerton-Dyer theorem", even though in that case his name is being used as a compound modifier. &nbsp;&mdash;&nbsp;[[User:Amakuru|Amakuru]] ([[User talk:Amakuru|talk]]) 07:11, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
*::::They're still not grammatically parallel. If they were parallel, there would be an "African America" that African American people come from, but there isn't; "African" modifies the people, not the place. However, Middle Eastern people are not the same as Eastern people whose ancestors came from the Middle; they are people from the Middle East. So since these are constructed differently I don't see why it is obvious that they should be hyphenated identically. As for things named after S-D, the one you're looking for is probably the [[Birch–Swinnerton-Dyer conjecture]]. —[[User:David Eppstein|David Eppstein]] ([[User talk:David Eppstein|talk]]) 07:18, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
*:::::That's also not a parallel case. Birch and Swinnerton-Dyer are two different people, and that is a dash, not a hyphen. We would call it the [[Birch–Swinnerton conjecture]] even if there were no Dyer in the mix at all. The kind of example I'm talking about is [[Barack Obama citizenship conspiracy theories]] rather than [[Barack-Obama citizenship conspiracy theories]]. Anyway, I don't dispute your opinion - if you and the the rest of the community think it should be "African-American teenager" then that's fine. But it's clear, from the differing opinions on the issue expressed here, that this is an issue that needs resolution. Thanks &nbsp;&mdash;&nbsp;[[User:Amakuru|Amakuru]] ([[User talk:Amakuru|talk]]) 07:49, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
*::::::"Double-barrelled" surnames aren't a parallel case; they "arrived" here pre-hyphenated. The hyphen is a formal part of such a name (for individuals and families that use the hyphen) for the same reason the diacritic belongs in the name of [[Abimael Guzmán]] but not [[Ryan Guzman]].  "New York" has no permanent hyphen in it, so it is not hyphenated internally in an adjectival construction, like "New York-style pizza". <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 10:42, 6 March 2019 (UTC)
*:: [[User:Amakuru|Amakuru]]: What do we gain by granting "African American" a no-hyphen exception?  What do we lose by not granting this exception?  What concrete problem would be solved by avoiding "African-American teenager"?—and think of how "wrong" it'd look to see "African American and Mexican-American teenagers ..." [[User:Curly Turkey|Curly&nbsp;"JFC"&nbsp;Turkey]]&nbsp;<span style="color: Red;">🍁</span>&nbsp;[[User talk:Curly Turkey|''¡gobble!'']] 00:54, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
*::: {{ping|Curly Turkey}} I don't know what we gain or lose, perhaps nothing. But like I say, I don't myself favour one form or the other, I think we just need to clarify. Is there a fundamental difference between "African-Amreican teenager" and "Middle Eastern cuisine" that means we hyphenate one but not the other? I think whatever we decide should probably cover "Japanese-American teenager" and "Mexican-American teenager" too, as well as "African-American teenager", as I don't think there's a fundamental difference between those. None of those terms are strictly about simple dual nationality, they are more a description of a group of people, i.e. Mexican Americans, Japanese Americans... those are Americans (perhaps with no other citizenship), but who are culturally or through ancestry linked to Japan/Mexico/Africa. Thanks &nbsp;&mdash;&nbsp;[[User:Amakuru|Amakuru]] ([[User talk:Amakuru|talk]]) 07:11, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
*:::: I have no problem with (maybe even would prefer) "Middle-Eastern cuisine", and prefer it to a rule with numerous hard-to-understand exceptions.  I hoped the "Japanese[-]English teacher" example would clarify that the presence or absence of a hyphen has semantic importance.  Somebody pointed out that "Africa" is not a country, but neither is "Asia" or "Jew", and I'd hyphenate "Asian-American teenager" and "Jewish-American teenager". [[User:Curly Turkey|Curly&nbsp;"JFC"&nbsp;Turkey]]&nbsp;<span style="color: Red;">🍁</span>&nbsp;[[User talk:Curly Turkey|''¡gobble!'']] 23:23, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
*:::::I wasn't intending to imply above that it has to do with "countries" in particular (a word with more than one meaning anyway).  "African American" isn't a unitary noun like "New York", but a descriptive compound, a shorthand for "American of African ancestry" (New York isn't a new part of York, or York moved from one place to another; it's evocative not descriptive).  There are edge cases; is "Middle East" a shorthand for something like "the East, but the middle-ish part of it"?  It arguably was 100 years ago, when terms like "Near East" and "Middle East" were used in a subjective, hand-waving way without very concrete meanings – "Near East" even included Ottoman-controlled parts of Europe for some people.  But not today.  MoS didn't make this stuff up; it's just following what other English-language style guides advise (other than news ones, which lean anti-hyphen about everything). And that would not have a hyphen in "Middle Eastern cuisine". Such a hyphen isn't conventional in unitary placenames (even unofficial ones), but it is in "A modifying B" compound adjectives, as in "a Filipino-Canadian pool player", while an en dash is used in "A relating independently with B" ones, as in "the Philippines–Canada trade agreements". Neither relationship exists between "New" and "York" in "New York politicians" or "Middle" and "East" in "Middle Eastern cuisine", though this is maybe less certain about the latter case. N-grams are not terribly helpful on this; they always show suppression of the hyphen for all such constructions, because news style is anti-hyphen in general, and skews the results (Google's N-gram database is full of news material). However, if you compare plots of phrases like "Middle[-]Eastern politics" to those for, say, "African[-]American actor", you'll find that the hyphen nearly never occurs in the regional reference, while its suppression in the ethnic one is much milder. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 10:42, 6 March 2019 (UTC)
*I sense that, with a few notable dissensions, we may have a consensus here that the preferred usage is: "African-American teenager", "Mexican-American teenager" etc. but retain "Middle Eastern cuisine", "New York train crash", "Birch–Swinnerton-Dyer conjecture", "Barack Obama citizenship conspiracy theories" etc. If there's general agreement for this, perhaps some sort of explanatory note can be added to the proper name line because it may not be immediately obvious that African American does not count as a regular proper name in this context. Thanks &nbsp;&mdash;&nbsp;[[User:Amakuru|Amakuru]] ([[User talk:Amakuru|talk]]) 10:44, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

== Request for neutral input regarding Mormons ==

I have absolutely no horse in this race and couldn't care less on whether the Mormons call themselves "LDS" or "COJC", but, as pointed out [[Wikipedia:Bot requests#Use of 'Mormon Church' and 'LDS Church' formally requested to be discontinued|here]], the discussion at [[Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Latter Day Saints#changes based on recent style request from LDS Church?]] has fizzled out without any kind of consensus as to what Wikipedia should be calling these people, so there are minor good-faith back and forth changes and reverts going on all over the project. While I normally feel the MOS is too overreaching, this is something Wikipedia ''should'' micromanage to the extent of coming up with a single approved name otherwise people will be changing "Mormon", "Latter-day Saint" and "Church of Jesus Christ" back and forth for eternity; if people have a spare few minutes can they pop over there and try to get this settled on one name or another?&nbsp;&#8209;&nbsp;[[User:Iridescent|Iridescent]] 09:11, 10 March 2019 (UTC)
:{{tq|back and forth for eternity}}. Does this proves the True Eternity for ever ? Or do we have ''Jesus cries, but the caravan goes further'' ?  [[User:Pldx1|Pldx1]] ([[User talk:Pldx1|talk]]) 09:48, 11 March 2019 (UTC)

== Explanatory supplements to this guideline.  Wikipedia:Specialized-style fallacy ==
Is [[Wikipedia:Specialized-style fallacy]] an explanatory supplement to this guideline?  If yes, it should be linked prominently. If no, that page should not be making the claim.  —[[User:SmokeyJoe|SmokeyJoe]] ([[User talk:SmokeyJoe|talk]]) 14:43, 10 January 2019 (UTC)
:I would call it a strongly supported '''essay''' (at least it is strongly supported by the editors who regularly contribute to discussions on MOS pages) related to MOS guidance.  I’m less sure that “supplement” is the right word. [[User:Blueboar|Blueboar]] ([[User talk:Blueboar|talk]]) 14:53, 10 January 2019 (UTC)
:: I am not sure about the word “supplement”, but it is not the worst choice, and that word is used on many essays that have been decided to not be mere opinion but an important explanation that should be read when interpreting policy on a particular angle. —[[User:SmokeyJoe|SmokeyJoe]] ([[User talk:SmokeyJoe|talk]]) 15:01, 10 January 2019 (UTC)
* '''Agree, it should be linked'''. And I would add another related essay (or "supplement" as it has been called in this discussion) to the list: [[Wikipedia:Common-style fallacy]]. [[User:Cherkash|cherkash]] ([[User talk:Cherkash|talk]]) 01:13, 18 January 2019 (UTC)
*Happy for it to be linked. [[User:Tony1|<b style="color:darkgreen">Tony</b>]] [[User talk:Tony1|<span style="color:darkgreen">(talk)</span>]] 01:47, 18 January 2019 (UTC)
*Don't care what tag it has; {{tlx|Essay}} is fine. {{tlx|Supplement}} is just a kind of essay (as is {{tlx|information page}}, {{tlx|WikiProject style advice}}, etc., etc.).  '''Of course it should remain linked here''', since it's pertinent, and frequently referenced (not just in MoS discussions but especially often in [[WP:RM]] ones, which often hinge on MoS-related matters).  Even our policy pages routinely link to useful essays. The essay is being subjected to what appears to be a coordinated attack by "usual suspects" in anti-MoS activism; see the (snowball opposed) [[Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Specialized-style fallacy|MfD opened one day earlier]]. Cf. [[WP:FORUMSHOPPING]], [[WP:MEATPUPPET]], [[WP:FACTION]], and [[WP:GAMING]]. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 04:17, 18 January 2019 (UTC)
{{u|SmokeyJoe}}: So where have the proposed links been placed, specifically? I couldn't find any new links, despite this discussion and its contributors seeming to agree on the need for them. [[User:Cherkash|cherkash]] ([[User talk:Cherkash|talk]]) 02:16, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

== Hyphens vs. dashes in geographic names ==

It seems there's no clear guidance on which of the two alternatives should be used in geographic names. E.g. in the case of [[Austria-Hungary]], a hyphen is advised by the MOS. Whereas, logically and per closer reading of the en-dash/hyphen policies, even this case is not so clear. Specifically, Austria and Hungary were essentially two parts joined together, and so per most other similar cases there should be an en-dash (Austr'''ia–'''Hungary). On the other hand, it has also been known as Austr'''o-'''Hungary (where it's clearly the combining form that's intended here, and hence the hyphen).

Other recently discussed cases are:
* [[Karachay-Cherkessia]] (KC)
* [[Kabardino-Balkaria]] (KB)
* [[Khanty-Mansi Autonomous Okrug]] (KM)

In the case of KC and KB, the original Russian versions of their names both use the combining form (similar to Greco-Roman or Anglo-American), namely Russian transliterations are ''Karacha'''yevo-'''Cherkesiya'' for KC (I'm ignoring ''-siya'' to ''-ssia'' transition as not relevant to the subject) and ''Kabard'''ino-'''Balkariya'' for KB. But then somehow KB is the only one that retains this Russian form in English: KC changes what should have been "Karachayevo-" to "Karachay-", whereas KB forms what seems to be a combining adjectivial form "Kabardino-" from the noun "Kabardin" (a variation of the name for [[Kabardians]]).

Other cases from the fairly modern history include:
* [[Checheno-Ingush Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic]], where again two nationalities have formed the name on essentially equal terms. And so either Chech'''en–'''Ingush (with a dash) or Chech'''eno-'''Ingush (with a hyphen) would be appropriate – solely depending on which grammatical form is used.
* Same goes for [[Buryat-Mongol Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic]] and [[State of Buryat-Mongolia]]. The first is the equal-terms use: both "Buryat" and "Mongol" are nouns denoting nationalities – and so it should be used with an en-dash: Buryat–Mongol ASSR. Whereas the second one seems to be a combining form: it would be Buryatiya–Mongolia (like Austria–Hungary) if it were an equal-parts form, but instead it's on the pattern of Austro-Hungary (with a hyphen).

And so by looking at these examples, it seems that the choice between hyphen and en-dash should be guided by the grammatical/semantical meaning of the compound name in question, instead of applying a hard and fast "always use hyphen" exception rule (as seems to be superficially prescribed by MOS).

Pinging editors from other related recent discussions to opine on this: {{u|SMcCandlish}}, {{u|Dicklyon}}, {{u|Tony1}}. [[User:Cherkash|cherkash]] ([[User talk:Cherkash|talk]]) 02:57, 18 January 2019 (UTC)
:Where it's two parallel names that connected, I prefer the en dash.  But I often don't know how to interpret whether that's what it is.  Sounds like you've figured some out. [[User:Dicklyon|Dicklyon]] ([[User talk:Dicklyon|talk]]) 03:07, 18 January 2019 (UTC)
:I also prefer the en dash as reasoned and described above. (I would also prefer a dash for ''Austria–Hungary'' even though it is almost always found in printed sources as the hyphenated ''Austria-Hungary''). [[User:Doremo|Doremo]] ([[User talk:Doremo|talk]]) 03:21, 18 January 2019 (UTC)
::Also, "the original Russian versions of the names" is a [[red herring]].  The [[Russian language]] has its own orthographic rules which differ from those of English. WP isn't dictated to by [[WP:OFFICIALNAME|officialese]] much less non-English officialese, or transliteration by non-native English speakers from foreign officialese into the Latin alphabet. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 08:39, 11 March 2019 (UTC)
* '''En dash'''.  The entire point of the en dash (in such a construction – it's also used for an unrelated syntactic purpose, as in this parenthetical) is juxtaposition of two or more equal, comparable, or parallel entities, to indicate a relationship among them, a conflict between them, their joint output, or their merger. Incidence of hyphen usage in place of this is frequent primarily because some style guides eschew dashes for this purpose, including most news style guides, but not academic ones. An encyclopedia is essentially an academic work, [[WP:NOT#NEWS|not news]], so we use the en-dash style for a reason. Informal online writing and the fact that most keyboards have a hyphen key but no dash key is another cause of hyphens substituting for dashes, but WP is not written in random lazy schmoe's blog and forum posts style, either. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 03:55, 18 January 2019 (UTC)
** {{u|SMcCandlish}}: Did you ignore the cases using a combining form ([[Kabardino-Balkaria]], Austro-Hungary) on purpose? It doesn't seem that either "always use hyphen" (as advocated by the MOS) or "always use dash" (as advocated by you) could be the answer here. I think we'll have to keep distinguishing between the two depending on the etymology and semantics of the name. [[User:Cherkash|cherkash]] ([[User talk:Cherkash|talk]]) 04:22, 11 March 2019 (UTC)
***Combining forms always use a hyphen because they are prefixes and prefixes that are not fully merged into a word are hyphenated. Thus ''Austro-'', ''Sino-'', etc., just like ''pre-'' and ''post-'' and ''meta-'' and ''semi-''. They aren't names in their own right, but derived 'of or relating to&nbsp;...' adjectival prefixes.  (There's a special exception for converting a prefix's or suffix's hyphen into an en dash when the affix is added to a unitary compound that has its own internal hyphen or space: ''pre–Austro-Hungarian'', ''post–Winston Churchill Britain''. Various style guides omit that idea (besides journalism ones which are just anti-dash), while some don't; we've retained it, though it may be a bit fussy.) <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 08:36, 11 March 2019 (UTC)
****Ok, I'm with you here, {{u|SMcCandlish}}. But this latest comment of yours contradicts your top-level comment that starts with the bold "En dash" (which I construed as "always use an en-dash" – was that not your initial opinion?) – and in fact calls for distinguishing between hyphenated and dashed cases, as I hinted towards in my original inquiry here. [[User:Cherkash|cherkash]] ([[User talk:Cherkash|talk]]) 02:06, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
****:To be clear, I'm not contradicting your original comment; it should obviously be "Austria–Hungary". In news style, this would be written "Austria-Hungary", just because news is the anti-dash realm. Since WP isn't written in news style ([[WP:NOT#NEWS]]), MoS has no reason to care.  Some non-news publishers are also anti-dash and use hyphens for everything like this; the ones that would write "Austria-Hungary" would also write "Mexican-American War" and "Dunning-Kruger effect".  WP isn't among them, so we shouldn't be writing "Austria-Hungary". It just causes confusion.  The material probably needs to be clarified (see below). <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 13:20, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
* '''Comment'''. This parses as: we are using em--da because we are academic, and we are academic because we are using em--da. Part of the people will say this is a circular-reasoning, to underline that circular shape is combined with reasoning, allowing to build a higher concept. Part of the people will say this is circular--reasoning, to underline the juxtaposition between reasoning and fallacy (oxymore). Dissenters will use circular---reasoning to underline the opposition between the two concepts (oxy--more and more). Indeed, how academic we are !  [[User:Pldx1|Pldx1]] ([[User talk:Pldx1|talk]]) 09:12, 18 January 2019 (UTC)
**Agree with SMcCandlish. And the number of academics who don't "bother" with en dashes is striking – even for page ranges, where all of the major US and UK styleguides insist on one. Wikipedia is more professional than that. [[User:Tony1|<b style="color:darkgreen">Tony</b>]] [[User talk:Tony1|<span style="color:darkgreen">(talk)</span>]] 09:44, 18 January 2019 (UTC)
**Pldx1's circular-reasoning fantasy is just that: imaginary.  We're academic because we're an encyclopedia, which is an academic book-publishing endeavor, not fiction, not editorial, not humor, not news, not govermentese, not signage, not research papers, not advocacy material, not anything else. It's written like an academic book because it is one.  Almost all of our style disputation is caused by people refusing to accept this and expecting to be able to write like this is a blog, a newspaper, a novel, a legal document, an action alert, or a paper in ''Journal of Applied Econometrics''.  We use academic style based on that of leading style guides for academic book publishing because of WP's academic-book nature; it isn't the use of that style that makes WP an encyclopedia and not something else; [[WP:ENC]], [[WP:5P]] and other founding principles define what WP is. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 08:36, 11 March 2019 (UTC)
* {{strong|Here's the problem}}: It looks to me like "Wrong: Austria–Hungary; the hyphenated Austria-Hungary was a single jurisdiction during its 1867–1918 existence" was added by someone to encapsulate some kind of personal opinion or to rationalize an existing article title instead of moving it, and without any consideration of conflict with the rest of the dashes guideline and with actual practice (virtually all of our articles on places that are merged polities and whose names have a horizontal line in them separating the two formerly separate place names use an en dash, and RM regularly moves them to do so). All such places are "single jurisdictions during [their] existence" under the compound name, so the rationale in that quoted bit just doesn't work. {{em|I think this line should simply be removed.}} I'd been wondering why we keep getting recurrent confusion about dashes and hyphens in place names, and this is clearly the source of it. (Or most of it. Odd cases like Guinea-Bissau, "the Guinea of Bissau", and Wilkes-Barre, a town named in remote honor of people with no connection to the place, generate some questions. However, they reflect patterns of hyphen usage that no longer survive in contemporary English. They're nomenclatural fossils, like all the "St James Church"-style locations in the UK and Ireland without a possessive apostrophe.) <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 13:20, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

== Category:Wikipedia style guidelines is confusing for a new user ==

[[:Category:Wikipedia style guidelines]] is confusing. It lists both legitimate guidelines and essays. Essays are not guidelines, yet are listed there. They are two: [[Wikipedia:India - South Asia nomenclature|1]] and [[Wikipedia:India - South Asia nomenclature|2]]. I suggest making them separate from the legitimate guidelines for the sake of preventing new users' confusion.--[[User:Adûnâi|Adûnâi]] ([[User talk:Adûnâi|talk]]) 12:11, 10 March 2019 (UTC)
:[[WP:Be bold|Be bold]]. --[[User:Izno|Izno]] ([[User talk:Izno|talk]]) 14:12, 10 March 2019 (UTC)
:::We have this problem all over .....that is essays and user pages are seen in policy and guidelines cats.--[[User:Moxy|Moxy]] ([[User talk:Moxy|talk]]) 03:15, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
:I fixed that one. You linked to the same page twice. The essay's categorization error was caused by attempting to pipe-link a category without preceding its name with ":"; the fix was just doing <code><nowiki>[[:Category:Wikipedia style guidelines|style guidelines]]</nowiki></code>. It wasn't an intentional attempt to mark the page as a style guideline. I also added [[:Category:Wikipedia essays on style]] to it. I did find another essays in there, [[Wikipedia:Use feminine pronouns]], which was intentionally mis-categorized, and I've fixed that. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 14:46, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
:I've removed some pages that were essays from the category, but I'm not sure what the status is for the following guidelines - [[Wikipedia:Manual of Style/India-related articles]], [[Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Serbia-related articles]], [[Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Russia-related articles]], [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Athletics/Manual of Style/Competitions]], [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Athletics/Manual of Style/Biographies]], [[Wikipedia:VG/MOS/ESports]], [[Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Accessibility/Colors]] and [[Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Article message boxes]]. Are these guidelines? --[[User:Gonnym|Gonnym]] ([[User talk:Gonnym|talk]]) 14:54, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
::The esports one is definitively a draft. The color one I think could reasonably be called a supplement (in the true sense of the word) since it doesn't provide any guidance at all from what I can see, though it reasonably follows from the rest of the accessibility pages that if you want to be AAA compliant (which I don't believe we mandate), those are the colors and hues to use. --[[User:Izno|Izno]] ([[User talk:Izno|talk]]) 17:29, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
:::"I've removed some pages that were essays from the category" – which pages?  As for MOS:ACCESS subpages and such, I would leave them categorized as-is; they're part of MOS:ACCESS, basically, just broken out into subpages.  Maybe we could create some kind of MoS supplements category for them, if we really want to. <small>[Never mind; that already exists, and the subpages of MOS:ACCESS and MOS:CHEM are now in it.]</small>  The ones created by and living under wikiprojects are [[WP:PROJPAGE]] essays. I'll re-cat. those as needed (and rename the e-sports one to have a name that makes sense).  The athletics ones are categorized as PROJPAGEs, in [[:Category:WikiProject style advice]] and in a category called [[:Category:Wikipedia Manual of Style (sports)]]. I'm not sure we need that category, since there is no such MoS page and most sports-related style pages aren't part of MoS.  But it probably won't do any harm; I've added a note at the top of it explaining that the category's contents range from essays to guidelines.  As for the others, I'm not really sure.  I guess the question is primarily whether the ones on India, Russia, and Serbia are actually followed.  <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 21:06, 12 March 2019 (UTC); updated: 00:17, 13 March 2019 (UTC)
:::Updates:
:::* I moved the esports one to [[WP:WikiProject Video games/Esports style advice]], and cleaned up its conflicts with the real MoS. Since it's just a handful of points specific to pro gamers, I have opened a merge discussion at [[WT:MOSVG#Merge from Wikipedia:WikiProject Video games/Esports style advice]].
:::* The India one claims to {{em|be}} a guideline and has been listed in the {{tlx|Style}} navbox for years. I've just [[WP:BOLD]]ly put the MoS header tag on it.
:::* The Russia and Serbia ones make no such claims; both are explicitly tagged as dormant [[WP:PROPOSAL]]s, so I have put them both in [[:Category:Wikipedia style guideline proposals]], removed their MoS headers, and given them the {{tlx|Proposal}} header.
::: <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 22:03, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
::::You can check my contributions as I haven't done a lot of editing since so they are at the top. I think, based on the text description placed in [[:Category:Wikipedia style guidelines]], that pages added to this category AND to its sub-categories should all be guideline-level pages. Those I removed from the category (and placed in Category:WikiProject style advice/Category:Wikipedia style guideline proposals/Category:User essays on style) all did not have the guideline tag at the top. As a side note, I think that pages which aren't guidelines, should not be sub-pages of the manual of style, as that misrepresents them as part of the accepted MoS. --[[User:Gonnym|Gonnym]] ([[User talk:Gonnym|talk]]) 21:44, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
:::::We need not get [[WP:NOT#BUREAUCRACY|{{em|too}} nitpicky]] about the page naming and categorization. These are not article categories, but internal categories for our own page-management purposes. Something has the force of a guideline because it represents actual best practices, editors who care to have discussed it, and editors in general follow it; not because of what template is at the top of it. E.g., [[WP:BRD]], [[WP:COI]], [[WP:ROPE]], [[WP:AADD]], [[WP:NOTHERE]], and [[WP:ENC]] have an authority verging on policy level (the community treats them as actionable, including for deletion, user blocking/banning, and so on), but are essays.  Similarly, [[WP:5P]] is effectively a policy but not tagged as anything, and [[WP:MEDRS]] verges on policy but is technically a guideline.  It's more utilitarian to keep things like MOS:ACCESS's sub-pages grouped with the main guideline. They're basically giant footnotes that have been moved to subpages to reduce clutter, and same goes for those of [[MOS:CHEM]].  Anyway, I tracked down what you were doing, and made some further cleanup, including applying the right templates and categories, merging some shortcut templates into banners, removing duplicate banners, etc., etc.  Removed some wording from the MoS subpages that seemed to indicate wikiproject control, and removed "guideline" and "part of MoS" claims from the wikiproject pages.  I put the MOS:CHEM subpages back in the MoS category tree, under a new [[:Category:Wikipedia Manual of Style (chemistry)]] and tagged them as supplement essays; same with [[:Category:Wikipedia Manual of Style (accessibility)]], other than many of them are how-tos or other material, not guideline supplements. I think these are the only two MoS guidelines with a pack of sub-page stuff around them. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 00:13, 13 March 2019 (UTC)
::::::Nice work on the cleaning. I do however, disagree with your opinion that it doesn't matter if we add non-guidelines to a guideline category. The category tree makes it perfectly clear, that if it is a guideline it belongs in category X, if it is an essay in Y and so on. I agree that having stuff in the MoS category is for our own management purposes, but if the category is a mix of two (or more) different "things" then it is not useful. There is a reason why there is a category for [[:Category:Wikipedia Manual of Style]] and one for [[:Category:Wikipedia essays and information pages about the Manual of Style]]. Not going to revert your changes, but just stating it out there that I don't agree with them. --[[User:Gonnym|Gonnym]] ([[User talk:Gonnym|talk]]) 10:00, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

== HTML character code &amp;#8202; in ''Other uses (em dash only)'' ==

Let's preclude the first example in {{§l|MOS|Other uses (em dash only)}} with a clarification that a hair space will be used. It may prevent readers from unnecessarily looking up the HTML character code mentioned—{{mxtn|&amp;#8202;}}. Turns out it's explained in the very next sentence, yet this is easily overlooked when a reader's first inclination may be to immediately look it up without reading on, as was the case for me. Perhaps it's barely worth suggesting, but I believe it will be an improvement, slight though it may be.

Current paragraph:
{{quote|An [[#Indentation|indented]] em dash may be used before a name or other source when attributing below a [[#Block quotations|block quotation]], poem, etc. For example, {{mxt|{{tlp|in5}}—&amp;#8202;Charlotte Brontë}} will produce:<br />
{{in5}}—&#8202;Charlotte Brontë

This dash should not be fully spaced, though it is best for [[Wikipedia:Reuse|metadata]] and [[Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Accessibility|accessibility]] reasons to [[hair-space]] it from the name with the HTML character code {{mxt|&amp;#8202;}}.<!--(hidden on talk){{efn|name=hairspace|The [[hair space]] should be done as {{mxt|&amp;#8202;}} because the actual Unicode character (&#8202;) is almost invisible, and the alternative code "{{!mxt|&amp;hairsp;}}" is not standard and not supported in many browsers.}}--> Most of Wikipedia's quotation templates with attribution-related parameters already provide this formatting.}}

Amended:
{{quote|An [[#Indentation|indented]] em dash may be used before a name or other source when attributing below a [[#Block quotations|block quotation]], poem, etc. This dash should not be fully spaced, though it is best for [[Wikipedia:Reuse|metadata]] and [[Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Accessibility|accessibility]] reasons to [[hair-space]] it from the name with the HTML character code {{mxt|&amp;#8202;}}.<!--(hidden on talk){{efn|name=hairspace|The [[hair space]] should be done as {{mxt|&amp;#8202;}} because the actual Unicode character (&#8202;) is almost invisible, and the alternative code "{{!mxt|&amp;hairsp;}}" is not standard and not supported in many browsers.}}--> Most of Wikipedia's quotation templates with attribution-related parameters already provide this formatting.

For example, {{mxt|{{tlp|in5}}—&amp;#8202;Charlotte Brontë}} will produce:<br />

{{in5}}—&#8202;Charlotte Brontë}}

I can't imagine anyone would object. Nothing's rewritten and the only difference is that I moved the example to end of the paragraph. I'd do it myself, but I'm hesitant. Prior MOS edits I thought were minor and non-controversial have been reverted nonetheless.

Anyways, I'm curious to hear your thoughts. Regards, [[User:Jay D. Easy|Jay&nbsp;D.&nbsp;Easy]]&nbsp;([[User talk:Jay D. Easy|talk]]) 19:23, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

{{Quote box |salign=right|quote = Many are cold, but few are frozen.|author = {{mdash}}{{hsp}}Matthew 22:14}}
:We shouldn't be encouraging use of {in5} and other such debris. {{t|quote}} has an ''|author='' parameter which adds the emdash and spacing anyway. For some reason {quote box} doesn't add the dash -- what a mess Wikipedia templates are -- so a good example might be
::<code><nowiki>{{Quote box |salign=right|quote = Many are cold, but few are frozen.|author = {{mdash}}{{hsp}}Matthew 22:14}}</nowiki></code>
:which gives the result seen at right. I don't know why we'd bother with the #8202 fiddling when we have nice mnemonic templates. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color: red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color: blue;">Eng</b>]] 21:38, 6 March 2019 (UTC)
* I'm fine with Jay D. Easy's rearrangement.  I see where EEng is coming from, but MoS wants people to use {{tlx|quote}} (which supports the parameter he mentioned, and which we already explain will do this markup for you), or {{tag|blockquote}}, which does not (thus the explanation).  {{tlx|Quote box}} isn't one of our standardized quotation templates, but old detritus that should probably be merged out of existence, or at best confined to use outside mainspace, like on people's talk page or whatever.  We don't have a reason to use it in an example. And {{tlx|in5}} isn't "debris", it's one of the recommended ways of indenting, unlike abuse of <code>:</code> [[MOS:DLIST|description list markup]] to produce a broken d-list just to get the visual appearance of an indentation. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 16:02, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
::*There certainly are times articles fitly use {quote box} but it doesn't matter to me -- I was just looking for a use case to exemplify  hairspace.
::*Where would we ever use {in5}?
::*Since {quote} has the ''|author'' syntax which does all this formatting, and < blockquote> doesn't, then let's just tell people to use {quote} with ''|author'' and drop this stuff about hairspaces and so on. 
::[[User:EEng#s|<b style="color: red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color: blue;">Eng</b>]] 16:54, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
::::There is no {{tlx|Quote box}} usage in any article that could not be replaced with another template that behaved more consistently.  We would "ever" use {{tlx|in5}} any time we wanted to indent a short line (there's another template, {{tlx|block indent}}, for larger material); this is covered at [[MOS:INDENT]]. We don't have any reason to try to force people to use templates when HTML {{tag|blockquote|o}} works fine and is easier for some of them and more flexible in some situations (various block templates don't behave well inside other blocks, next to images, etc.).  I.e., basically you're doing [[WP:CREEP]] to try to avoid doing WP:CREEP. :-) <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:SMcCandlish|SMcCandlish]] ([[User talk:SMcCandlish#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|contribs]]) 16:02, 7 March 2019 (UTC)</small>
:::::Well, mystery person, what template would we use instead of {quote box}, and please give an example of a use if {in5} in an article. Oh, and I believe the problem with quotes and images was fixed long ago. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color: red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color: blue;">Eng</b>]] 13:08, 9 March 2019 (UTC)
::::::That was me.  For other quotation templates, see [[:Category:Quotation templates]]; AFAIR, only {{tlx|quote box}} has inconsistent output (if you want to cite the source below the quotation, you have to manually include the em dash, and this makes it difficult to convert between quotation templates, requiring manual re-editing, not just a template replacement. [I think the fix for this would be to create a temporary copy that auto-dashed like all the rest of these templates, then use AWB or something to first point all extant calls to the new copy, then change then original to use the same in-built dash code as the other templates, then tediously replace all the extant calls to the temporary template to now not have manual dash markup and to call the (repaired) original template again, finally redirect the copy to the original (or just remove the copy). That would fix the issue without there ever being instances of in-article content both having a manual dash and a template-provided one, and it would preserve the page history of the original template. More of a pain in the butt than I would take on personally.]  Articles with {{tlx|in5}} include: [[Lyndon B. Johnson]], [[Supreme Court of the United States]], [[Methylphenidate]], [[Community (TV series)]], [[2017 NFL Draft]] (and other articles in that series), [[1966 FIFA World Cup]] (and other articles in that series), [[Bengal cat]], [[Warsaw Ghetto Uprising]], [[O Canada]], [[San Francisco]], [[DNA virus]], [[Mars Science Laboratory]], etc..  There's still lots and lots of abuse of <code>:</code> (i.e, of {{tag|dd}}) for visual indentation to fix in mainspace, and that might be something a bot can do.  It needs to be fixed since it generates invalid markup (as in actually fails validation).  A perhaps simpler fix would be to have MediaWiki generate different HTML when <code>:</code> is used, depending on whether it's preceded by a <code>;</code> ({{tag|dt}}) line, but over a decade after the devs were asked to do this, zero progress has been made, and we're left with working around it directly.  Talk pages are pretty much a lost cause, though fixing this at the MW level would also make our talk pages much more palatable for blind editors. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 13:44, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
:::::::I meant, give an example of in5 used in an article for a quotation. And if you'll tell me what to use instead of {quote box} I'll be happy to start using it. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color: red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color: blue;">Eng</b>]] 16:58, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

== Requested move: Chairman ==

For anyone interested, please see [[Talk:Chairman#Requested move 22 March 2019]]. [[User:SlimVirgin|SarahSV]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:SlimVirgin|(talk)]]</sup></small> 20:56, 23 March 2019 (UTC)

== MoS relevant discussion ==

There's a discussion at [[Talk:Chairman#Requested move 22 March 2019]] in which one issue is how to interpret or apply [[MOS:GNL]], so it may be of interest to editors here. [[User:Peter coxhead|Peter coxhead]] ([[User talk:Peter coxhead|talk]]) 22:23, 28 March 2019 (UTC)

{{Clear}}
==Italicized publication names==
Why don't the standards for italicizing publication names (such as ''The New York Times'') appear anywhere here? Am I missing something?--[[User:MainlyTwelve|MainlyTwelve]] ([[User talk:MainlyTwelve|talk]]) 19:52, 3 April 2019 (UTC)
:MoS has many sub-pages. Including every detail from all of them would basically be merging them all into one monolithic page.  Title formatting is in [[MOS:TITLES]]. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 21:22, 3 April 2019 (UTC)
::Thanks!--[[User:MainlyTwelve|MainlyTwelve]] ([[User talk:MainlyTwelve|talk]]) 13:50, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

{{Clear}}
== Navbox images ==

I ran across [[:Template:Goshen, New York]] today with images and have never seen such a Navbox before. My first inclination was just to remove them as distractions that have nothing to do with the navigational purpose of the box. The closest policy I could find was [[WP:Navigation template#Navigation templates are not arbitrarily decorative]] and the "implied" standard format from the examples and common usage. Any other comments? [[User:MB|<b style="color:#00FF00">MB</b>]] 23:07, 5 April 2019 (UTC)
:I agree. IF the town had an official (free) symbol/coat of arms/etc. that could be used as identification, (eg like [[:Template:California]]) but random photos that at that size make it unclear what's being shown do not help. --[[User:Masem|M<span style="font-variant: small-caps">asem</span>]] ([[User Talk:Masem|t]]) 23:27, 5 April 2019 (UTC)
::Agree with Masem. And in practical terms, even on my big browser pane the pics are so small they may as well be abstract art. And they certaintly should be ''bigger''. So let's rid ourselves of them. [[User:Tony1|<b style="color:darkgreen">Tony</b>]] [[User talk:Tony1|<span style="color:darkgreen">(talk)</span>]] 00:47, 6 April 2019 (UTC)
:::{{done}} [[User:MB|<b style="color:#00FF00">MB</b>]] 01:10, 6 April 2019 (UTC)

== [[MOS:GENDERID]] and death ==

There's a discussion over at [[Talk:David Burgess (immigration lawyer)|Talk:Sonia Burgess]].

Sonia Burgess was a trans woman who it seems had started socially transitioning - among friends and family and in public. At the time of her death she was still presenting male and using her old name at work. Her friends and family used her new name and pronouns when quoted by the press after her death.

Some are arguing that the article name should not be changed because she continued to use the old name at work, and that she hadn't made a statement herself in a reliable source about which name she preferred to be called.

I believe this to be abiding by the letter but not the spirit of [[MOS:GENDERID]], and I wonder if the guideline could be improved to account for situations like this where the wishes of the article subject are obvious and clear but they never made a "self-designation" in a reliable source. --[[User:Wickedterrier|Wickedterrier]] ([[User talk:Wickedterrier|talk]]) 12:10, 13 March 2019 (UTC)
:The key here is the concept of Recognizability... we need to ask: which name did the subject use in public?  And: Which name would a reader searching for information about the subject expect us to use.  [[User:Blueboar|Blueboar]] ([[User talk:Blueboar|talk]]) 12:43, 13 March 2019 (UTC)
:: Not the overriding concern for BLPs, in this case Burgess lived their life as Sonia Burgess and at the time of their death, appears to have only used the name David Burgess when working at the legal practice. The "most correct" and "most respectful" self-identification should default to "under what name did they live their life", not what name did they write under, or what name did they use to avoid discrimination. --[[User:Fæ|Fæ]] ([[User talk:Fæ|talk]]) 14:27, 13 March 2019 (UTC)
:::And why does Burgess have an article at all? Because of their professional life, in which he was David Burgess, not their personal life, in which she was Sonia Burgess. -- [[User:Necrothesp|Necrothesp]] ([[User talk:Necrothesp|talk]]) 15:08, 13 March 2019 (UTC)
::::Exactly. We use the name readers are more likely to recognize -- for example, stage names for actors, pen names for authors. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color: red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color: blue;">Eng</b>]] 15:12, 13 March 2019 (UTC)
{{collapse top |left=y |width=90% |bg=LightGrey |title=Off-topic flame-fest that's all predicated on a mistaken assumption about who created the article:}}
:::: "why does Burgess have an article at all?" - Let's be honest, because we all know the real reason... the article exists only because of their trans status, in violation of [[WP:NOTMEMORIAL]] by trans activist editors. Otherwise this is [[WP:ROUTINE]] tabloid coverage of the murder of a [[WP:RUNOFTHEMILL]] lawyer. --[[User:Netoholic|Netoholic]] [[User talk:Netoholic|@]]  16:41, 13 March 2019 (UTC)
::::::This isn't really the place to talk about the Sonia Burgess article, but I'll say one thing: if you look through the page's history and talk page, you will see that the person who created it (and has made the most contributions to it) has, over the years, successfully resisted any attempt to have the article use the name Sonia or female pronouns. There might be genuine cause to question the subject's notability, but this idea that the article only exists because of some sinister cabal of trans activists reveals a pretty warped perspective. [[user:WanderingWanda|Wandering<span style="color:#e3256b;">Wanda</span>]] (they/them) ([[User_talk:WanderingWanda|t]]/[[Special:Contributions/WanderingWanda|c]]) 23:27, 13 March 2019 (UTC)
[[File:2004 mathe-03.jpg|thumb|upright=2|Collegiate discussion on tangents{{right|-[[User:EEng#s|<b style="color: red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color: blue;">Eng</b>]]}}]]
::::: What a bizarre personal attack to make against all editors with an opinion different from yours. Are you really stating that those of us that write about how GENDERID should be used respectfully for transwomen, is now condemned as a "trans activist editor"? Classic [[WP:BATTLEGROUND]] behaviour which, "let's be honest" increasingly looks like lobbying to knock collegiate discussion off on tangents. --[[User:Fæ|Fæ]] ([[User talk:Fæ|talk]]) 14:12, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
{{anchor|startling}}
::::::That's a rather startling statement given so many of your comments at [[WP:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2019-02-28/Humour]]. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color: red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color: blue;">Eng</b>]] 15:38, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
::::::: Are you really subscribing to the conspiracy theory that ''the article exists only because of their trans status, in violation of [[WP:NOTMEMORIAL]] by trans activist editors''?
::::::: There is a definite battleground environment being created here, a pattern established by the same old suspects trying to provoke and trigger editors with opinions they do not like to see freely and logically expressed so that their targets fall foul of Wikipedia policies. If you love free speech, why not try letting others express their views without making hostile personal attacks and scaring away anyone that might feel differently, that would be a good start. --[[User:Fæ|Fæ]] ([[User talk:Fæ|talk]]) 16:12, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
:::::::::No, I'm not subscribing to any conspiracy theory. I am saying that for you to complain about "personal attacks ... against all editors with an opinion different from yours" is laughable. Stop trying to control everyone. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color: red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color: blue;">Eng</b>]] 20:19, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
::::::::''If you love free speech, why not try letting others express their views''- that's a bit rich considering that you just tried to remove harmless picture illustrating "tangents" on this page on the grounds that it was "hostile".Removing others' contributions on talk pages is against [[WP:TPO]],do not do that.[[User:Smeat75|Smeat75]] ([[User talk:Smeat75|talk]]) 16:44, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
::::::::::<small>Actually, I was illustrating the difference between ''collegiate'' and ''collegial''. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color: red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color: blue;">Eng</b>]] 20:19, 14 March 2019 (UTC)</small>
:::::::::::Especially amusing, too, since it appears to be a classroom lost {{em|in}} a bunch of tangents (discussion-wise) even if they really are talking {{em|about}} tangents (in the maths sense). <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 04:16, 2 April 2019 (UTC)
::::::::: Trimming an irrelevant and deliberately sarcastic image from a discussion, is not against TPO. However ''precisely'' following those guidelines I have converted the image to a link, as per TPO the only purpose of which is to take this discussion off on irrelevant tangents and was never the subject of this discussion. Thanks for the advice. --[[User:Fæ|Fæ]] ([[User talk:Fæ|talk]]) 16:54, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
::::::::::See, here you go again with the "only purpose" mindreading. What a narrowminded scold you are. Wherever you work must be one sad and dreary place. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color: red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color: blue;">Eng</b>]] 20:19, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
::::::::::: Again the word "scold", being provocative by using language that has a long history of degrading women. It appears that you know exactly what you are doing, you have encouraged me to take better look these patterns. --[[User:Fæ|Fæ]] ([[User talk:Fæ|talk]]) 20:50, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
::::::::::::Oh my fucking lord, you really are completely off your rocker. [https://www.google.com/books/edition/How_Tough_Could_It_Be/sefPEuc4BpQC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=bill+bennett+national+scold&pg=PA128] [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color: red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color: blue;">Eng</b>]] 22:08, 14 March 2019 (UTC) <small>P.S. Watch it with the comma splices.</small>
::::::::::::: Please show where I have stated I am mentally ill, or retract your statement. Your macho locker room "jokes" appear to be thinly disguised personal attacks intended to drive people away from sensible discussion about gender. --[[User:Fæ|Fæ]] ([[User talk:Fæ|talk]]) 22:30, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::If the shoe fits, wear it. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color: red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color: blue;">Eng</b>]] 03:02, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
::::::::::::::[[User:EEng#s|<b style="color: red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color: blue;">Eng</b>]]: "scold" [https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/scold absolutely has a gendered meaning]. Regardless of whether that was your intent, your comment there was an unambiguous personal attack that added nothing to the discussion. I think you should strike through it or another uninvolved editor should do so and/or hat this portion of the thread.  [[User:Nblund |<span style="background-color: #CC79A7; color:white;">'''Nblund'''</span>]]<sup> [[User talk:Nblund|talk]]</sup> 22:52, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::I will not. If ''scold'' offends you I invite you to mentally substitute ''kvetch''. Shouldn't you two be at a seminar somewhere? Oh, sorry... an ''ovanar''? [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color: red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color: blue;">Eng</b>]] 03:02, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::: Seriously? [[user:WanderingWanda|Wandering<span style="color:#e3256b;">Wanda</span>]] (they/them) ([[User_talk:WanderingWanda|t]]/[[Special:Contributions/WanderingWanda|c]]) 03:10, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::::Obviously not. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color: red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color: blue;">Eng</b>]] 03:16, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
::::::::::::::::: It is worth highlighting that [[Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions]] applies to this page and this discussion, which includes ''"discretionary sanctions may be used against editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process."'' --[[User:Fæ|Fæ]] ([[User talk:Fæ|talk]]) 04:18, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::::: Yes, especially given why you ended up at ANI and ArbCom recently. LOL. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 04:29, 2 April 2019 (UTC)
{{collapse bottom}}
: I think you're missing this line from GENDERID: {{tq|This applies in references to any phase of that person's life, unless the subject has indicated a preference otherwise}}. This subject clearly had a delineated preference - private vs. professional. This means that in the portions of the article which discuss their professional setting, we should firmly use the male name and identification. In sections about their personal life, we use the female. And in portions which are mixed, we can avoid awkward constructions - like using only their last name, etc.  As far as the title, it should be based strictly on the context of their most solid basis of notability and most likely search vector - in this case, their professional legal identity. -- [[User:Netoholic|Netoholic]] [[User talk:Netoholic|@]]  17:23, 13 March 2019 (UTC)
::Is there a source for the claim that Burgess indicated some other preference? Coverage at the time refers to Burgess's previous name, but calls her a woman and uses female pronouns when discussing her. And [https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-16167368 the BBC says] Burgess "wished to be known as Sonia and dressed as a woman." So the most up-to-date reliable sources indicate that Burgess lived as a woman and wanted to be called Sonia. I don't see much ambiguity as far as [[WP:GENDERID]] goes. {{ping|Blueboar}}: I think the "recognizably" argument could apply to anyone who became famous before transitioning. That's what redirects are for.  [[User:Nblund |<span style="background-color: #CC79A7; color:white;">'''Nblund'''</span>]]<sup> [[User talk:Nblund|talk]]</sup> 23:59, 13 March 2019 (UTC)
:::Yes, it certainly does apply to anyone who became notable under one name, and then (subsequently) changed to a different name - regardless of the reason for the name change. [[User:Blueboar|Blueboar]] ([[User talk:Blueboar|talk]]) 16:31, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
::::And [[MOS:GENDERID]] clearly applies in those cases (e.g. [[Chaz Bono]], [[Caitlyn Jenner]], [[Chelsea Manning]]), so how is it not a spurious argument to say that the key question is recognizability when that appears to be contradicted by both practice and by the explicit wording of the policy?  [[User:Nblund |<span style="background-color: #CC79A7; color:white;">'''Nblund'''</span>]]<sup> [[User talk:Nblund|talk]]</sup> 16:53, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
:::::I am not familiar with the history of the Bono article, but I am familiar with the Manning and Jenner articles... in both of those cases we actually delayed adopting the name changes until it was clear that the majority of reliable sources had adopted the “new” names.  In other words, we waited until the subject could be considered notable under the new name.  In both cases, the “new” name was initially rejected... then (as more sources used the “new” name) it was adopted here as a redirect while the article stayed at the “old” name... and finally (as the number of sources using the “new” name increased) the “new” name was adopted as the article title and the “old” name was shifted to being a redirect. In the Manning case, this shift happened somewhat quickly (over about a week)... Jenner took longer (a few months).  The key was that those who supported change were able to demonstrate that both Jenner and Manning were now just as Recognizable under their “new” names as they were under their “old” names.  It also helped that both Manning’s and Jenner’s transitions were two of the first ''very'' public cases of transition.  They both could claim that their transitions were a second claim to notability - beyond their original deeds.  One last comment... Today, transitioning isn’t viewed as being such a big deal (the general public is much more used to the idea than it was back when Manning and Jenner announced).  What this means is that an announcement may relult in less press coverage.  Paradoxically, the more people accept transitioning as a concept, the longer it will take for a specific person’s transition to become recognizable.  [[User:Blueboar|Blueboar]] ([[User talk:Blueboar|talk]]) 18:07, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
::::::That's explicitly not what [[MOS:GENDERID]] says. It says that we should defer to the most recent self-identity regardless of what most sources say. Perhaps the Manning case predates the consensus on this. In Jenner's case, I don't see any serious debate about how to do things: [[Talk:Caitlyn_Jenner/Archive_4#Requested_move_1_June_2015|this RfC]], in which an editor argued that [[WP:COMMONNAME]] applied to the bio in was snow closed just over a week after Jenner came out on 20/20. Editors unanimously cited the MOS:ID text to note that there was no reason to wait to rename the article, and I don't see any pushback on that point. That seems to fly in the face of what you're saying - can you cite some kind of recent discussion on this? [[User:Nblund |<span style="background-color: #CC79A7; color:white;">'''Nblund'''</span>]]<sup> [[User talk:Nblund|talk]]</sup> 19:22, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
Just wanted to reiterate that there is a RM discussion happening right now over on the Burgess talk page: [[Talk:David_Burgess_(immigration_lawyer)#Requested_move_12_March_2019]] [[user:WanderingWanda|Wandering<span style="color:#e3256b;">Wanda</span>]] (they/them) ([[User_talk:WanderingWanda|t]]/[[Special:Contributions/WanderingWanda|c]]) 18:52, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

*'''MOS:GENDERID is not about article titles.''' And it states, "The MoS does not specify when and how to present former names, or whether to use the former or present name first." And [[MOS:IDENTITY]], which MOS:GENDERID, is a part of, states, "Disputes over how to refer to a person or group are addressed by Wikipedia [[WP:Content policies|content policies]], such as those on [[Wikipedia:Verifiability|verifiability]], and [[Wikipedia:Neutral point of view|neutral point of view]] (and [[Wikipedia:Article titles|article titles]] when the term appears in the title of an article)." Even if MOS:GENDERID stated something about article titles, the guideline can't override what the [[WP:Article titles]] policy states. As for previous cases pointing to MOS:IDENTITY to rename articles, it's not the first time that MOS:IDENTITY (now known as MOS:GENDERID for the gender aspect) has been used more broadly than it should be. And the Chelsea Manning article title case was a huge case that made the news; news articles were talking about Wikipedia editors debating what name to use with regard to Chelsea Manning's article title. Some editors felt under scrutiny, which led to them voting the way they did. As for pronouns in the Chelsea Manning article, while some editors were wanting to only use feminine pronouns for her, it was [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?oldid=624116331&diff=prev noted] that she supported "female pronouns [being] used for only post-announcement material" after being asked "Should the female pronoun be used throughout, for all life stages, including childhood? Only for post-announcement material? Or not at all?" [[User:Flyer22 Reborn|Flyer22 Reborn]] ([[User talk:Flyer22 Reborn|talk]]) 06:49, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
** @[[User:Flyer22 Reborn|Flyer22 Reborn]]  That's a good point, but I'm unclear on what that sentence indicates. I read that policy as saying that we don't outright prohibit mentioning a person's former name, but it's hard for me to imagine that we would say "use the preferred pronouns/gendered nouns but not the preferred name" - e.g. "Bruce Jenner is a woman". Is there some record of how that sentence came about?  [[User:Nblund |<span style="background-color: #CC79A7; color:white;">'''Nblund'''</span>]]<sup> [[User talk:Nblund|talk]]</sup> 15:03, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
**:Nblund, I'm not clear on what you mean regarding what the guideline is saying. As for how that piece came about, I'd need to check the archives. [[User:Flyer22 Reborn|Flyer22 Reborn]] ([[User talk:Flyer22 Reborn|talk]]) 09:02, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
**::In other words: I read that policy as saying that there is no consensus on whether or not to ''mention'' former names in some fashion. E.g. there is no consensus on whether it is appropriate to present Manning's name in some places in the article. Nevertheless, ''presenting'' a former name is not the same as actually using it to refer to a person - using the former name as the article title is more than just presenting the former name - it is sort of abrogating the existence of the new one. I can't think of any examples of articles where someone has transitioned where we still use their old name for the article title. [[User:Nblund |<span style="background-color: #CC79A7; color:white;">'''Nblund'''</span>]]<sup> [[User talk:Nblund|talk]]</sup> 15:38, 19 March 2019 (UTC)
**::'''edit''' [[User:Genericusername57]]'s [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style&diff=888169220&oldid=888158063 comment below] is probably a clearer rendition of the point I'm getting at: it's a [[use-mention]] distinction (a thing I just learned existed) [[User:Nblund |<span style="background-color: #CC79A7; color:white;">'''Nblund'''</span>]]<sup> [[User talk:Nblund|talk]]</sup> 15:51, 19 March 2019 (UTC)
**:::I actually don't think that that distinction is the answer to this question. [[MOS:MULTIPLENAMES]] provides guidance on '''whether''' to mention non-primary names, and that bit in [[MOS:GENDERID]] explicitly says there's no guidance '''when''' and '''how''' to do so; but neither helps with the question of '''which name is primary''' in difficult cases like this one. I'd lean towards keeping "David" and "him" (but still mentioning "Sonia" in the lead): if the person chose to publicly maintain a male identity, I don't think we should second-guess that after his death. [[User:Genericusername57|gnu]][[User talk:Genericusername57|<span style="color:#ff7000">57</span>]] 17:30, 19 March 2019 (UTC)
**::::Sorry, I didn't mean to put words in your mouth - I realize this doesn't settle the core question of which name is "preferred" in this case, but it helped clarify my question about whether [[MOS:GENDERID]] meant to indicate that previous names were treated differently from previous pronouns. If we agreed that "David" is the preferred term, then the title, pronouns, and primary name used would all need to line up, and vice versa if we decided "Sonia" was the preference. In other words, we wouldn't leave the article title as "David Burgess" but then use Sonia/female pronouns in the body. Right? [[User:Nblund |<span style="background-color: #CC79A7; color:white;">'''Nblund'''</span>]]<sup> [[User talk:Nblund|talk]]</sup> 17:44, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

: {{tq|it was noted that she supported "female pronouns [being] used for only post-announcement material"}} This comes from one single statement from Manning's lawyer, while she was still imprisoned, and the lawyer prefaced it by saying {{tq|Here is what I would recommend}} and not, say, "here is what Manning has told me she prefers".  [[user:WanderingWanda|Wandering<span style="color:#e3256b;">Wanda</span>]] (they/them) ([[User_talk:WanderingWanda|t]]/[[Special:Contributions/WanderingWanda|c]]) 17:29, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
::Are you doubting that Manning's lawyer presented the matter accurately? That it wasn't also Manning's view? If it wasn't also Manning's view, why would the lawyer state that? Maybe [[User:SlimVirgin|SlimVirgin]], who reported the matter, has more insight on that. And Manning is not the only case of a famous transgender person preferring different pronouns for two different phases of their life. In Jenner's case, Jenner [https://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/25/business/media/bruce-jenner-says-he-identifies-as-a-woman.html originally] preferred to be called Bruce, and to be referred to by masculine pronouns, for her life before her transition. I'm not sure if she still does this, but there were a number of times that she talked about her life as Bruce as though Bruce is a different person. She saw Bruce as a different person and referred to Bruce by masculine pronouns. [[User:Flyer22 Reborn|Flyer22 Reborn]] ([[User talk:Flyer22 Reborn|talk]]) 09:02, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
:::{{tq|Are you doubting that Manning's lawyer presented the matter accurately?}}<br> I think it's a possibility.<br>{{tq|And Manning is not the only case of a famous transgender person preferring different pronouns for two different phases of their life.}}<br>If that is someone's clear preference, based on one or more reliable sources, sure, let's go with their preference. In a case like that, though, there should be a clarifying aside that says something like "So-and-so has stated that they prefer..." etc. with a source to back it up. [[user:WanderingWanda|Wandering<span style="color:#e3256b;">Wanda</span>]] (they/them) ([[User_talk:WanderingWanda|t]]/[[Special:Contributions/WanderingWanda|c]]) 00:41, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
::::There was no indication from Manning that the lawyer got it wrong. As for clarifying text, we did that for Jenner. [[User:Flyer22 Reborn|Flyer22 Reborn]] ([[User talk:Flyer22 Reborn|talk]]) 10:53, 19 March 2019 (UTC)
::::Another example of a transgender person preferring different pronouns for two different phases of their life is [[Janae Kroc]]. I meant to mention Kroc earlier, but I couldn't remember the name. Just saw Kroc on my watchlist with [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Janae_Kroc&diff=888261803&oldid=887479670 this] edit. [[User:Flyer22 Reborn|Flyer22 Reborn]] ([[User talk:Flyer22 Reborn|talk]]) 13:35, 19 March 2019 (UTC) 
::::: Certainly a useful example, though the sources need careful review. In the most recent interview I can find ([https://www.reddit.com/r/powerlifting/comments/75rd7q/janae_marie_kroc_ama_69pm_edt_live_thread/ Oct 2017]), she states "As far as how to address me (and this can be different for everyone) I prefer the name Janae and female pronouns at any time but when I present as male (or a gender blurry version of male these days) many of my male friends and family still refer to me as Matt and use male pronouns and while I don't prefer it I'm not offended by it either. I have always been easy going and if it makes it easier in that situation then whatever. The only thing that would make me uncomfortable would be to be referred to as Matt or have male pronouns used when I'm clearly presenting as female." On this basis the current article lede is incorrect as pronouns for a woman should be used. In terms of style the article appears to emphasize pronouns, when for many of the paragraphs they would be written without any gendered pronouns. Anyway, a bit off topic for a discussion about BDPs. --[[User:Fæ|Fæ]] ([[User talk:Fæ|talk]]) 13:57, 19 March 2019 (UTC)
::::::Apparently, Kroc has stated different things on the matter and has indeed used masculine pronouns for pre-transition. We see [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Janae_Kroc&diff=792030762&oldid=786977054 this] indefinitely blocked account stating, "Janae is genderfluid and has indicated a preference for using male pronouns for pre-transition life as Matt, please respect this." We see [[User:Ahecht|Ahecht]] [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Janae_Kroc&diff=838618738&oldid=838617254 stating], "Janae has used male pronouns when referring to Matt in the past tense." We see the IP [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Janae_Kroc&diff=888261803&oldid=887479670 stating], "Kroc's pronouns are she/her, though she sometimes refers to herself in the past as 'he.' I changed male pronouns here to her last name so as to avoid misgendering." There's also been discussion on the talk page about it. Editors should figure the matter out and stick to it. If the article is not to mismatch, then oh well. The article mismatching will be confusing for readers anyway, unless a preference for mismatching is clarified early on. [[User:Flyer22 Reborn|Flyer22 Reborn]] ([[User talk:Flyer22 Reborn|talk]]) 15:47, 19 March 2019 (UTC)  
::::::: From the article talk page, all discussions are years old. It seems unreasonable to rely on interviews pre-transition as evidence that a transwoman identifies as a man, that is the very nature of ''transitioning''. Similarly we should prefer and respect recent sources post-transition for self-id over sources during somebody's transition or recent transition; again there very nature of a person transitioning is to discover and define their self identity. I have added a few sources on the article talk page from ''late 2017 and 2018'', which all so far support Krocs preference and use of female pronouns exclusively and show journalists for reliable publications consistently using female pronouns. If you know of other recent sources, please do add them. --[[User:Fæ|Fæ]] ([[User talk:Fæ|talk]]) 16:04, 19 March 2019 (UTC)
::::::::"Trans woman identifies as a man"? Huh? Jenner was not truly identifying as a man by using masculine pronouns and the name "Bruce" to refer to her pre-transition life. Like I stated above, "there were a number of times that she talked about her life as Bruce as though Bruce is a different person. She saw Bruce as a different person and referred to Bruce by masculine pronouns." There are a lot of trans people -- including trans men -- who use the previous gender pronouns and previous name to refer to their pre-transition life. As I've stated on this site more than once, not all transgender people are the same. Not all of them think alike. If they did, Jenner would not have gotten the various criticisms she's gotten from the transgender community. Kroc's article, with sources, [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Janae_Kroc&oldid=888261803#Personal_life currently states], "In July 2015, Kroc came out as both [[transgender]] and [[gender fluid]]. Janae is living as both genders, describing often feeling like two completely different people trying to share a body, fighting for control. After a solitary use of 'her' in an open letter (misrepresented plurally as 'pronouns'), HuffPo interpreted this as a preference. Janae has used male pronouns when referring to Matt in the past tense. Kroc has written of picking a gender to identify with 'more' in the context of hypothetically being 'forced' to." Those sources are from 2015 and 2016. Unless Kroc has come out and stated that she is no longer genderfluid, or no longer prefers to use the name "Matt" and masculine pronouns for her pre-transition life, we shouldn't assume that it's no longer the case. Again, the IP stated, "Kroc's pronouns are she/her, though she sometimes refers to herself in the past as 'he.'" That Kroc uses feminine pronouns for her true gender identity doesn't mean that she no longer considers Matt a different person/no longer uses masculine pronouns when referring to that person. The article also states, "In October, Janae referred to an interview where male pronouns are used to refer to Matt as 'one of my best interviews'. In the interview Janae mentions being 4 weeks into estrogen therapy, and taking a testosterone blocker." I'll repeat this on the talk page. [[User:Flyer22 Reborn|Flyer22 Reborn]] ([[User talk:Flyer22 Reborn|talk]]) 17:08, 19 March 2019 (UTC) 
:::::::I don't know what I was trying to do with that edit, as what I said and what I did appear to be opposite. I probably accidentally reverted to the wrong revision. --[[User:Ahecht|Ahecht]] ([[User talk:Ahecht|<span style="color:#FFF;background:#04A;display:inline-block;padding:1px;vertical-align:-.3em;font:bold 50%/1 sans-serif;text-align:center">TALK<br />PAGE</span>]]) 17:10, 19 March 2019 (UTC)
::::::::[[User:Ahecht|Ahecht]], like me, I think you were going by what the sourced article states. [[User:Flyer22 Reborn|Flyer22 Reborn]] ([[User talk:Flyer22 Reborn|talk]]) 17:15, 19 March 2019 (UTC)
When should Wikipedia respect a trans person's identity? Always and without exception.
::::{{lang|la|Re}} "Are you doubting that Manning's lawyer presented the matter accurately?" being answered by "I think it's a possibility."  That's what we call [[WP:NOR|original research]].  Lawyers making statements on behalf of their clients are presumed to be representing those clients' wishes and interests; that's their job, and they can be disbarred for failing to do it.  To suggest it didn't happen in this case is an extraordinary claim requiring extraordinary sources. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 04:37, 2 April 2019 (UTC)


That doesn't mean that Wikipedia should ''never'' repeat a trans person's deadname. In order to fufill its mission of being a comprehensive, neutral, and uncensored encyclopedia sometimes it needs to repeat deadnames, in the same way that sometimes it needs to repeat other unpleasant or offensive things like racist or queerphobic slurs.

But a trans person's preferred name should always be the primary way an article refers to them. That goes for for biographical articles, non-biographical articles, titles, infoboxes, prose. Everything. If that contradicts Wikipedia's current policies and guidelines then the policies and guidelines need to be changed. 

The [[1976 Summer Olympics]] article should say that Caitlyn Jenner won the gold medal for the decathlon. ''But that's falsifying history!'' No it's not. Referring to someone's past using their current name is a normal practice. There is nothing incorrect or weird about the sentence [https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/06/books/review/michelle-obama-becoming-memoir.html "Michelle Obama went to Princeton."] 

My position on this is perfectly mainstream and middle-of-the-road. Go ask Google or Wolfram Alpha "who won the 1976 olympic men's decathlon" and see who pops up in the infobox. Look at what [https://www.glaad.org/reference/style the Reuters style guide says]: {{tq|Always use a transgender person's chosen name....If you are not sure which gender pronoun to use, ask. If you can't ask, then use the one that is consistent with the way a person presents himself or herself.}} Look at this  [https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/05/insider/reporting-limits-of-language-transgender-genderneutral-pronouns.html ''New York Times Insider'' piece] which talks about how the ''Times'' is a perfectly boring and mainstream publication that {{tq|is not looking to lead the discussion, set the rules or break new ground}} and yet chooses to use people's preferred pronouns and names when reporting on transgender subjects.

Earlier someone complained about trans activists, but who are the real trans activists here? Mainstream publications decided years ago it's not acceptable to misgender transgender people. Calling trans people what they want to be called is mainstream. Finding any excuse to misgender trans people is activism.  [[user:WanderingWanda|Wandering<span style="color:#e3256b;">Wanda</span>]] (they/them) ([[User_talk:WanderingWanda|t]]/[[Special:Contributions/WanderingWanda|c]]) 07:41, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

*Identity is a constant negotiation - it is never to one-sided. You would not accept if I declared my identity as Godking over you. You would not accept if I declared my identity even as [[User:Jimbo Wales]]. To think of identity as one-side declaration which must be abided "always and without exception" is not only arrogant and authoritarian, its fruitless.  Are you naive enough to think that newspaper style guides accommodate that out of a bounty of compassion? No. They fear call-out culture. They fear mob justice. They fear, ironically, "bad press". Your Obama example is simply not equivalent because if a newspaper had written "Michelle LaVaughn Robinson went to Princeton", it would not cause a social media flurry among a vocal and aggressive population of "marriage tradition" activists.  But using a trans person's "deadname" as you call it would fire up trans activists immediately. And now here on Wikipedia, a very accommodating guideline has been implemented, but you want more. You want, in the case of [[David Burgess (immigration lawyer)|David Burgess]], now to ignore the repeated preference of that person to be identified as male in their professional life. They certainly did not consider it a dead name, so why are you pushing to do so? You're past the point of wanting individuals to be respected for their choices... you've already abandoned any consideration for the preference of non-trans people to have some continuity and [[WP:VERIFIABILITY]] in Wikipedia articles... but now you are willing to sacrifice even a trans person's (Burgess') preferences for the sake of some even greater demands. That doesn't show respect for the preferences of individuals, not at all. -- [[User:Netoholic|Netoholic]] [[User talk:Netoholic|@]]  09:20, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
*: Here's a thought experiment, where <s>you make</s> there are inflammatory statements about trans people, try writing Jews instead and see if it looks like an attack. Would <s>you write that</s> Jews control newspapers by using "mob justice", or does that <s>you think</s> now read as a conspiracy theory defaming Jewish people? How <s>you</s> we write about trans people should require the same level of respect and adherence to verifiable fact. Using Wikipedia to promote <s>your own</s> fantasy anti-trans conspiracy theories is not appropriate on any talk page. Certainly not on this page which is subject to Arbcom discretionary sanctions. By the way, deriding a transwoman's self identification by comparing it to calling yourself "Godking" is not a joke, it is an <s>deliberate</s> attack against trans people. Thanks --[[User:Fæ|Fæ]] ([[User talk:Fæ|talk]]) 09:42, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
*:: If you believe the concerns I raise are any kind of "deliberate attack" on any population and not made in good faith, then you should raise that elsewhere. That is a very serious accusation and demands serious consideration.  But I feel I must caution you not to fall back into the pattern of conspiratorial actions documented in [[Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Fæ#Findings of fact]]: {{tq|7) Fæ has responded to good faith concerns by attempting to link the people with concerns to the campaign against him.}}. -- [[User:Netoholic|Netoholic]] [[User talk:Netoholic|@]]  10:01, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
*::: 6 years, 7 months, 26 days ago? How about you take 10 minutes to understand why Arbcom DS apply here, and whether you have already broken them, today, not 6 years ago.
*::: As a general antidote to heated discussion, how about everyone takes a chill pill and consider Arbcom's reminder to everyone in a very similar case, more than 5 years ago: ''"All editors [...] are reminded to maintain decorum and civility when engaged in discussions on Wikipedia, and to avoid commentary that demeans any other person, intentionally or not."''' [[Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Manning_naming_dispute#Editors_reminded|ref]]
*::: I promise to stick to this, and if everyone else could we might get to a sensible conclusion a lot faster. In this spirit I have struck a few words from my thought experiment paragraph, showing that I have taken time to hear you. --[[User:Fæ|Fæ]] ([[User talk:Fæ|talk]]) 11:59, 15 March 2019 (UTC) 
*:I'm not sacrificing anybody's preferences or ignoring anything. Just today I weighed in on an article about a living trans person who came out as a woman and then, apparently, decided to go back into the closet and actively revert to their male name. I argued that their article should respect their wishes and should no longer refer to them as female.
*:In the case of Sonia Burgess, I weighed what the sources said and made a determination. Her close friends and family made it clear she was living as a woman and would want to be remembered as a woman. The BBC referred to her as a woman when they reported on her death and so did the prosecutor for the trial of the person who killed her. It would be nice if Sonia Burgess was alive and could tell us how she wants her Wikipedia article to refer to her, but since she's not, well, we have to make a choice one way or the other, and my choice is well supported by the facts. [[user:WanderingWanda|Wandering<span style="color:#e3256b;">Wanda</span>]] (they/them) ([[User_talk:WanderingWanda|t]]/[[Special:Contributions/WanderingWanda|c]]) 11:51, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
*:Since I talked about activism I feel I should add: while I agree that Wikipedia articles should be middle-of-the-road and not activist, there is nothing wrong with activism and I do not consider it to be a dirty word. [[Civil_rights_movement|Social change]] does not happen without people getting "fired up" and "vocal" and "activist" and "aggressive". [[user:WanderingWanda|Wandering<span style="color:#e3256b;">Wanda</span>]] (they/them) ([[User_talk:WanderingWanda|t]]/[[Special:Contributions/WanderingWanda|c]]) 23:43, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
*::{{tq|Social change does not happen without people getting "fired up" and "vocal" and "activist" and "aggressive"}}. Making this remark here looks like a logical fallacy. When some people are "vocal", "activist", "aggressive", this doesn't prove that said people are concurring to any valuable social change. This only proves that they are "vocal", etc. while trying to play a trump card. Going back to what is discussed, one can see that the wp:en article is less and less about the professional accomplisments of lawyer David Burgess, and more and more about his private life. But if you really want to put the focus on the said private life, you will have to discuss how a distinguished transgender 63 years old British lawyer was behaving towards an 35 years old Sri Lankan person, poor and isolated, whose capacity to have an educated consent was questionned in court (diminished responsibility). Moreover, you shouldn't forget that Nina Kanagasingham ended {{tq|found dead in her cell with a plastic bag on her head, and each hand tied to the bed frame}}... and doesn't got  a funeral service in any impressive, grey-stone, porticoed place overlooking Trafalgar Square. Indeed, some social changes are long overdue. [[User:Pldx1|Pldx1]] ([[User talk:Pldx1|talk]]) 10:31, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
*:::I don't completely understand what you're trying to say, I'm sorry, but I agree that not all activism is good. A civil rights march is good activism, a KKK march is bad activism. My point is that there's nothing inherently wrong with activism. As for Sonia Burgess, if you think there are details that aren't being covered in her article that should be covered, by all means add them, provided they're relevant and well sourced and aren't just speculation. [[user:WanderingWanda|Wandering<span style="color:#e3256b;">Wanda</span>]] (they/them) ([[User_talk:WanderingWanda|t]]/[[Special:Contributions/WanderingWanda|c]]) 14:07, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
*::::While there is nothing wrong with activism in general, We do have a policy that notes that Wikipedia is not the right venue for it (per [[WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS]]). [[User:Blueboar|Blueboar]] ([[User talk:Blueboar|talk]]) 15:23, 19 March 2019 (UTC)
*::::: To date there is no evidence that reliable sources are not being carefully examined, that [[wp:BLP|BLP]] is being ignored, or that anyone who is concerned for the respectful handling of biographies of trans people is out to disrupt Wikipedia or [[WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS|misunderstands why it exists out of either incompetence or "activism"]]. Theoretical activism seems a pointless discussion to have here. Thanks --[[User:Fæ|Fæ]] ([[User talk:Fæ|talk]]) 15:33, 19 March 2019 (UTC)
* I would think the compromise position is this: Keep the article at the common (masculine) name, note in the first or second sentence that the subject's gender identity changed, and they used the feminine name in private life, and thereafter either use "she/her/hers", or avoid pronouns entirely.  <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 04:39, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

== Abbreviation of "Saint" in British church articles. ==

I am wanting some clarification from the Wikipedia community on an aspect of the MOS which, in my view, is in some confusion and conflict. Another editor has been changing the article names for some British churches to include a full stop / period with the abbreviation of "Saint" ("St." instead of "St") on the basis of both [[MOS:POINTS]] and [[WP:CHURCH]]. However, as POINTS states, full stops at the end of contractions in British English is "optional". It has also, in my experience, long and overwhelmingly been the usual style in modern British English to not use full stops in common contractions such as "St". Both POINTS and CHURCH seem to me to reflect a North American bias about such abbreviations which has not considered the fact that contraction abbreviations without a full stop is not only optional but also the much more common modern use in British English. I would appreciate other editors views about this and the application of the MOS to British church names in articles. If this is not the correct place to discuss these matters then please advise me where this is. Thank you. [[User:Anglicanus|Anglicanus]] ([[User talk:Anglicanus|talk]]) 00:50, 20 March 2019 (UTC)
: This should be simple... as POINTS says, it’s optional.  So, if you are starting a new article, you can use the point or not - as YOU think best.  If you are editing in an existing article, it is polite to defer to the punctuation choice that exists.  If that existing punctuation really, really bothers you... go to the talk page and ask politely whether anyone would object to a switch (90% of the time no one will... but the remaining 10% can be a doozy of a fight). [[User:Blueboar|Blueboar]] ([[User talk:Blueboar|talk]]) 01:09, 20 March 2019 (UTC)
::Thanks [[User:Blueboar|Blueboar]] :  I also found this in the MOS which I believe supports my view : "An abbreviation may or may not be terminated with a full point (also called a period or stop). A consistent style should be maintained within an article. North American usage is typically to end all abbreviations with a period/point (Dr. Smith of 42 Drummond St.) but in common British and Australian usage, no period/point is used if the abbreviation (contraction) ends in the last letter of the unabbreviated form (Dr Smith of 42 Drummond St) unless confusion could result." [[User:Anglicanus|Anglicanus]] ([[User talk:Anglicanus|talk]]) 01:15, 20 March 2019 (UTC)
:::I'm travelling & mouseless, so can't copy the link but there is long discussion touching on this at pump policy talk, archive 137. I can't see it supports what [[WP:CHURCH]] currently says, which [[User:SilkTork]] (for it is he) is relying on.  Certainly in the UK, usage varies, and how the church spells its own name should usually be decisive. Maybe someone could add the link. [[User:Johnbod|Johnbod]] ([[User talk:Johnbod|talk]]) 01:34, 20 March 2019 (UTC)
:::: Agree with Anglicanus. "Optional" seems like an oversimplification or misunderstanding of the British rule, which both my own understanding and the sources I can find suggest is as Anglicanus says ([https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/punctuation/punctuation-in-abbreviations][http://www.sussex.ac.uk/informatics/punctuation/capsandabbr/abbr][https://grammar.collinsdictionary.com/easy-learning/the-full-stop][http://www.bbcamerica.com/anglophenia/2014/09/punctuation-day-brits-call-period-full-stop]). I'd argue therefore the full stop should not be used for British institutions, and elsewhere, the 'first use' rule should be kept, as usual for linguistic variations in line with [[WP:ENGVAR]]. [[User:TSP|TSP]] ([[User talk:TSP|talk]]) 01:57, 20 March 2019 (UTC)
::::: It may be worth pointing out that using a period after abbreviations works well if you have a wider space between sentences than between words within a sentence (the old double-space style used with typewriters, or at least the space-and-a-half or so used by LaTeX).  Unfortunately HTML collapses multiple spaces, which means that periods after abbreviations &mdash; especially when the next word starts with a capital letter, as in this case &mdash; tempt the reader to think that the sentence is complete.
::::: This is why I personally have adopted the "British" style in online communications, in spite of being American myself.  The "American" style is problematic in the context of the HTML convention, and forcing it into British-related articles seems especially strange. --[[User:Trovatore|Trovatore]] ([[User talk:Trovatore|talk]]) 02:15, 20 March 2019 (UTC)
:::::: Calling the convention to drop the full stop at the end of abbreviations "British" is an over-simplification.  It is a recent trend brought on (I strongly suspect) by headline writers and other journalists.  Certainly the British convention when I was at school was for titles such as "Dr." or "Rev." to have full stops after them.  Turning back to saints, I would strongly recommend following the style the particular church itself uses; after all we allow other bodies styles (such as iPlayer or eBay) which fit no known stylistic rules. [[User:Martin of Sheffield|Martin of Sheffield]] ([[User talk:Martin of Sheffield|talk]]) 08:02, 20 March 2019 (UTC)

I hadn't realised what I was doing was likely to be controversial, as it appeared to me that I was following consensus as outlined in [[MOS:POINTS]] and [[WP:CHURCH]]. Indeed, I [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Necrothesp&diff=888537840&oldid=888315663 explained to a user] who had moved [[St. Paul's, Deptford]] to [[St Paul's, Deptford]], why I was restoring the page to St. Paul. For me this is like the disagreement over using The Beatles or the Beatles. Either way is fine, and neither way alters meaning, but is purely stylistic. Such stylistic usage will vary with time, location, editorial and publication preference, etc. Given the guidance in [[MOS:POINTS]] and [[WP:CHURCH]] I had assumed that the community had settled on using St. Paul rather than St Paul, especially as St. Paul is widely considered outside of Wikipedia to be the modern usage, and is used, albeit inconsistently, in the UK. It is useful to have a house style, and to stick with it. I don't think it is helpful to say that whoever first writes an article gets to determine future punctuation or layout as that leads to inconsistency. And I would much prefer there were a central guideline that people could follow, rather than having random ad-hoc local discussions, let alone having to wait for some kind of response from people on articles which don't get much editorial attention. Personally I'm OK with either St. Paul or St Paul. But I would rather it were consistent. I'd rather we said all such usage should be St. or St across Wikipedia as that is our house style (and once that was established there should be no need for anyone to make any page moves let alone ask others for consensus to make such moves), or we established clearly in guidelines that we use St. for all articles other than UK articles where St would apply. Actually, my real preference would be for the Foundation to write software that allowed UK readers by default to see St Paul (and colour) and non-UK readers by default to see St. Paul (and color), and allowed users to over-ride those defaults if they wished. [[User:SilkTork|SilkTork]] ([[User talk:SilkTork|talk]]) 09:56, 20 March 2019 (UTC)

Common modern British usage is ''not'' to use the full stop. If you look at British church categories, the vast majority of the articles therein (and there are many hundreds) do not use the full stop and this has been our clear convention for years. That ''is'' our house style with regard to Commonwealth articles (except Canada, of course). If we had consistent house styles for everything across Wikipedia, then we would doubtless use American English for everything; we do not per [[WP:ENGVAR]]. House style depends on the national origin of the article. What we ''do'' want is consistency between classes of article (i.e. all British articles should use common British style, which is obvious from looking at the relevant categories). These edits should be ceased and reverted immediately and the relevant guidelines rewritten to rid them of the American bias that seems to have crept into them. -- [[User:Necrothesp|Necrothesp]] ([[User talk:Necrothesp|talk]]) 10:31, 20 March 2019 (UTC)

:Whatever house style is used should be supported by a guideline that others can refer to. At the moment the guidelines that we have ([[MOS:POINTS]] and [[WP:CHURCH]]) support using a dot/period after an abbreviation, and [[MOS:POINTS]] is vague on UK usage, and actual UK usage is inconsistent, with different editors using the period or not either through personal taste or different interpretation of existing guidelines. If people want UK abbreviations to be shown without a dot/period, then that should to be written into a guideline rather than left to random choice. We could set up a RfA to see what the wider consensus is. The RfA could ask if the abbreviation period guidelines ([[MOS:POINTS]] and [[WP:CHURCH]]) should be:
:* a) left as they are, with users deciding among themselves to use the period or not in UK articles  
:* b) adjusted to make reference to the guidelines at [[MOS:ENGVAR]], bringing abbreviations clearly under that guideline, and updating [[MOS:ENGVAR]] to include the use of abbreviation periods as a regional variation, which would more clearly and firmly allow editors to use abbreviation periods or not in UK articles depending on circumstances such as local usage in reliable sources   
:* c) adjust guidelines to specifically make UK articles exempt from using the abbreviation period, which would grant consistency across all UK articles in line with UK spelling  
:* d) adjust guidelines to make the abbreviation period the standard Wikipedia house style for all articles, UK articles included. 
: I'm not entirely sure at the moment which option I would favour, though I feel the current situation is not clear, so I would be unlikely to support a. In essence, I don't much care if we use the abbreviation period or not, as long as it is clear to everyone what we should do. [[User:SilkTork|SilkTork]] ([[User talk:SilkTork|talk]]) 11:22, 20 March 2019 (UTC)
::Note that it's not just UK articles. Australian, New Zealand and South African articles are also among those that generally use this style. This suggests that Commonwealth English as a whole favours non-use of the full stop. I would therefore favour (c), but with the expansion to most other Commonwealth countries (with the usual exception of Canada) and probably Ireland too. As I said, the vast majority of these articles already omit the full stop, so for consistency's sake (a), (b) and most definitely (d) don't work for me. -- [[User:Necrothesp|Necrothesp]] ([[User talk:Necrothesp|talk]]) 11:52, 20 March 2019 (UTC)
::: I think [[MOS:POINTS]] needs to be adjusted one way or another in any case, because it is currently self-contradictory.
:::: "Modern style is to use a full point (period) after a shortening ... but no full point with an acronym." vs "Contractions that do not contain an apostrophe almost always take a period in North American English, but the point is optional in British English: Doctor can be abbreviated Dr. in American and Canadian English, but Dr. or Dr in British English."  
::: Unless British English is not modern, these can't both be correct.
::: I think there's reasonable evidence that omitting the period in this case is most usual in British use - I provided four sources above. (I didn't cherry-pick these, they were simply the first four guides I found giving any guidance at all.) [[User:TSP|TSP]] ([[User talk:TSP|talk]]) 12:33, 20 March 2019 (UTC)
::::Yes, the "modern style" comment is a bit bizarre. I would have actually said it was quite archaic in British English. -- [[User:Necrothesp|Necrothesp]] ([[User talk:Necrothesp|talk]]) 13:11, 20 March 2019 (UTC)

Do folks feel there is enough interest to open a RfC? And, if so, are the options I listed the appropriate ones? [[User:SilkTork|SilkTork]] ([[User talk:SilkTork|talk]]) 13:38, 20 March 2019 (UTC)
:I would say that it is unnecessary, given we already have hundreds of articles titled in this way and the convention has existed for many years. If it ain't broke, why waste energy trying to fix it? We just need to reword the guidelines to make it clear. -- [[User:Necrothesp|Necrothesp]] ([[User talk:Necrothesp|talk]]) 13:51, 20 March 2019 (UTC)
::That's what the RfC would be about - rewording the guidelines. Getting in enough people to form a consensus. [[User:SilkTork|SilkTork]] ([[User talk:SilkTork|talk]]) 16:23, 20 March 2019 (UTC)
:::We don't need an RfC about this  "St. Foo" is normal in American (and much Canadian) English; "St Foo" is normal in British and most Commonwealth English.  ENGVAR works fine here. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."  Where we have an actual problem is "sloppy British" style, in which all the dots are dropped, even from non-contraction abbreviations (e.g., you'll see some British people write "eg" and "ie" and "aka" and "Prof Smith").  This should be fixed on sight to conform to [[MOS:POINTS]] – and to major British style guides like ''New Hart's Rules'' (AKA ''Oxford Style Manual'' AKA ''Oxford Guide to Style''), ''Fowler's Dictionary of English Usage'' (the last several editions), etc.  Where the "eg" style is coming from is particular British newspapers doing it out of expediency and to make headlines slightly smaller (they all have their own conflicting style guides, unlike US newspapers which are overwhelmingly dominated by a single style guide, ''Associated Press Stylebook''), plus people just being confused/lazy and forgetting that the British dot-dropping rule applies to contractions that start and end with the same letters as the whole word ("Dr" for "Doctor" but "Prof." for "Professor"). <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 04:51, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

== Change MOS:SCAREQUOTES shortcut to here ==

I came across a particular egregious case of mass scarequoting and wanted to reference the MOS, but found that the most complete treatment (with examples), here at [[Wikipedia:Manual of Style#Quotation point of view]] (new anchor I added to avoid linking to only the subsection "Point of view"), was not the target of [[MOS:SCAREQUOTES]]. I would like to change MOS:SCAREQUOTES to link the same place as [[MOS:QUOTEPOV]], the section here. Seems like if the main MOS covers it in most detail, that should be the location of the shortcut. Objections? [[User:DIYeditor|—DIYeditor]] ([[User talk:DIYeditor|talk]]) 05:07, 20 March 2019 (UTC)
:I think you're headed in the right direction, but the QUOTEPOV and the Typography section below it both have mentions of usage scare quotes. Scare quotes are used for doubt or to disparage, and so favor keeping the redirect as it is.  <span style="font-family:Palatino,'Palatino Linotype',serif; letter-spacing: .1em;">[[User:Senator2029|<b style="color:#09F;">Senator2029</b>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Senator2029|<b style="color:#09F;">“Talk”</b>]]</span>  15:51, 21 March 2019 (UTC)
::I combined the different treatments of this in [[User:DIYeditor/sandbox/Scare quotes]], what do you think about moving that to [[Wikipedia:Manual of style/Scare quotes]] and pointing both redirects to the unified location? Potentially this could have an even more detailed discussion of the different ways this could be acceptable or not. [[User:DIYeditor|—DIYeditor]] ([[User talk:DIYeditor|talk]]) 02:44, 24 March 2019 (UTC)
:::I'm not too happy about creating yet another MOS subpage. We've got more than enough of those already. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color: red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color: blue;">Eng</b>]] 03:00, 24 March 2019 (UTC)
::::I thought that might be a response. How about making that text into a new and consolidated section on the MOS, rather than in 3 separate places? [[User:DIYeditor|—DIYeditor]] ([[User talk:DIYeditor|talk]]) 03:07, 24 March 2019 (UTC)
:::::Agree with consolidation but not with a tiny subpage.  We have many that need to merge out of existence. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 02:20, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

== Beginning a sentence with a lowercase letter ==

Is this appropriate on Wikipedia? It seems wrong to me, so I changed [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Japanese_grammar&type=revision&diff=890076502&oldid=887132186 a sentence here] to avoid it beginning with ''ka''. I've tried searching for any mention of this here, but it is difficult to parse any discussion of this topic from the many other capitalization discussions.[[User:文法楽しい|文法楽しい]] ([[User talk:文法楽しい|talk]]) 22:14, 29 March 2019 (UTC)
:In my opinion, never. That edit looks fine to me; it would also have been acceptable simply to cap the K, but recasting avoids any possible confusion with a proper name or the like.—[[User:Odysseus1479|Odysseus]][[User talk:Odysseus1479|'''<span style="color:#6A5ACD">1</span><span style="color:#9400D3">4</span><span style="color:purple">7</span>''']][[Special:Contributions/Odysseus1479|'''<span style="color:maroon">9</span>''']] 22:29, 29 March 2019 (UTC)
:"iPhone sales have been flat since the product launch in 2018." Not based on expertise in the MOS, just my two cents. [[User:DIYeditor|—DIYeditor]] ([[User talk:DIYeditor|talk]]) 18:32, 30 March 2019 (UTC)
::"The sales of iPhones have been flat since the product launch". The number of instances where you can't reword the sentence to avoid the issue is vanishingly rare; this is a situation that should ordinarily never arise. The relevant (admittedly well-hidden) guideline is at [[Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Trademarks#Trademarks that begin with a lowercase letter]].&nbsp;&#8209;&nbsp;[[User:Iridescent|Iridescent]] 19:15, 30 March 2019 (UTC)
:::Then [[iPhone]] needs to be fixed, or can it not be reworded? - '''iPhone''' ({{IPAc-en|ˈ|aɪ|f|oʊ|n}} {{respell|EYE|fone}}) is a line of [[smartphone]]s designed and marketed by [[Apple Inc.]] [[User:DIYeditor|—DIYeditor]] ([[User talk:DIYeditor|talk]]) 04:36, 31 March 2019 (UTC)
::::I've {{em|literally}} just given you the link to the relevant guideline. The boldface title recapitulation at the start of the lead is treated as a special case.&nbsp;&#8209;&nbsp;[[User:Iridescent|Iridescent]] 08:25, 31 March 2019 (UTC)
:::::Sorry, my mistake, I did not look at that link at all. Makes sense. [[User:DIYeditor|—DIYeditor]] ([[User talk:DIYeditor|talk]]) 17:30, 31 March 2019 (UTC)
:Yeah, just rewrite to avoid it (and same for trademarks starting with numerals). A lot of journalists have given up, and will start sentences with lower case if they feel they have to because of the extreme pressure they're under to save column space. But WP is under no such editorial thumb, and we have no reason to use an awkward construction just to save a few characters. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 11:08, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

== [[MOS:ENBETWEEN]]: Remove a confusing assertion someone added, which conflicts with the rest of the guideline ==

I proposed this cleanup at the end of a longer thread on hyphens and en dashes, and confusion about place-naming. It was not opposed, but was archived not long after, so I'm re-opening it for discussion rather than just doing it:

It looks to me like "Wrong: ''Austria–Hungary''; the hyphenated Austria-Hungary was a single jurisdiction during its 1867–1918 existence" was added by someone to encapsulate some kind of personal opinion or to rationalize an existing article title instead of moving it, and without any consideration of conflict with the rest of the dashes guideline and with actual practice (virtually all of our articles on places that are merged polities and whose names have a horizontal line in them separating the two formerly separate place names use an en dash, and RM regularly moves them to do so). All such places are "single jurisdictions during [their] existence" under the compound name, so the rationale in that quoted bit just doesn't work. 

I think this line should simply be removed. I'd been wondering why we keep getting recurrent confusion about dashes and hyphens in place names, and this is clearly the source of it. <small>(Or most of it. Odd cases like Guinea-Bissau, "the Guinea of Bissau", and Wilkes-Barre, a town named in remote honor of people with no connection to the place, generate some questions. However, they reflect patterns of hyphen usage that no longer survive in contemporary English. They're nomenclatural fossils, like all the "St James Church"-style locations in the UK and Ireland without a possessive apostrophe or apostrophe-''s''.)</small> <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 06:35, 3 April 2019 (UTC)
: I noticed the Austria-Hungary entry once and reacted the same way. I don't understand the reasoning for preferring the hyphen or prohibiting the dash. [[User:Jmar67|Jmar67]] ([[User talk:Jmar67|talk]]) 14:39, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

== Does a DMY date establish British English for the purposes of MOS:RETAIN? ==

[[MOS:RETAIN]] and [[MOS:DATERET]] say that the initial variety of English and the date format, respectively, should be retained. Assuming no national ties or special circumstances, does the initial use of a date format establish the variety of English for an article, and vice-versa? Does the first use of a DMY date require subsequent use of British (or other Commonwealth) English? Does the use of American spelling preclude or discourage the use of DMY dates? If an article is found to have developed a mix of American English with DMY dates, assuming each is consistent, does that justify changing one of them to comply with the other? If so, is this explained somewhere in the MOS? I've read various style articles and template documentation, and found these discussions: [[Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 151#DATETIES: Is DMY format now acceptable for the U.S.?]] and [[Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 195#Question about ENGVAR, date formats, and metric vs. imperial]], but it's still not clear to me. Are there other discussions, principles, or consensus that are easier to understand?

An example case is [[Sahle-Work Zewde]] (let's leave aside national ties to Ethiopia). The first version of the article had a DMY date, but no other identifiable variety of English. Several years later, someone added the word "center". Several months later, someone else changed "center" to "centre". Despite my revert on the basis of MOS:RETAIN, they reinstated the change and added a <nowiki>"{{Commonwealth English}}"</nowiki> template on the basis that the DMY date had established it. I haven't commented yet on the talk page there, because I'm not sure whether it's usual practice or not, so I wanted to ask here. 

My personal preferences are:
# Don't go around changing date or English varieties unnecessarily. If you see someone doing that, revert and explain it politely to them.
# Dates in the format: "1 January 2019" are acceptable enough with American spelling (at least in articles that are not about American subjects) that going around changing one or the other is unnecessary.
# 
The first is mainstream - am I in the minority on the second? --[[User:IamNotU|IamNotU]] ([[User talk:IamNotU|talk]]) 15:24, 27 March 2019 (UTC)

:The establishment of DMY does '''not''' mean that BritEng should be applied. While most Commonwealth countries will follow with both DMY and BritEnglish, there are non-Commonwealth countries that use dmy but would not use BritEnglish (like many South American countries).  Date format and English variety are treated very separately, and one should not go to change one based on the state of the other. --[[User:Masem|M<span style="font-variant: small-caps">asem</span>]] ([[User Talk:Masem|t]]) 15:30, 27 March 2019 (UTC)

:Agreed per argumentation by Masem above: DMY is '''not''' a basis for establishing BrE. Nor is MDY a basis for establishing AmE; the very British publication ''[[The Economist]]'' uses MDY format. [[User:Doremo|Doremo]] ([[User talk:Doremo|talk]]) 15:59, 27 March 2019 (UTC)
::''The Economist'' may be very British, but it sells more in the US than UK & obviously can't be bothered to vary its date format. [[User:Johnbod|Johnbod]] ([[User talk:Johnbod|talk]]) 16:38, 27 March 2019 (UTC)
:::It's hardly surprising that an internationally targeted British publication sells more copies in a market of 327 million (US) than 66 million (UK). [[User:Doremo|Doremo]] ([[User talk:Doremo|talk]]) 16:50, 27 March 2019 (UTC)
::::And your point is? In fact it is probably the only one that does. On the last figures WP gives, only 14% of sales are to the UK, which is certainly unusual. [[User:Johnbod|Johnbod]] ([[User talk:Johnbod|talk]]) 16:57, 27 March 2019 (UTC)
:::::The point is that you seem to be claiming that ''The Economist'' isn't really a British publication because it doesn't have a majority of UK subscribers. I'm certainly not convinced of that. [[User:Doremo|Doremo]] ([[User talk:Doremo|talk]]) 17:06, 27 March 2019 (UTC)
::::::I suggest you read what I said more carefully. Actually I don't think the Economist does use MDY ''number'' dates, or not in the UK - what version are you looking at?  [[User:Johnbod|Johnbod]] ([[User talk:Johnbod|talk]]) 17:27, 27 March 2019 (UTC)
*If it is a case of establishing priority, I would say the date format is usually going to be quite strong evidence, unless say there is a Latin American subject or editor involved. [[User:Johnbod|Johnbod]] ([[User talk:Johnbod|talk]]) 16:38, 27 March 2019 (UTC)
:Dates are a favorite of pedants, and there's plenty of variation in how people like expressing dates, especially on the internet. I wouldn't say the use of a dating scheme should count as establishing Engvar for our purposes. [[User:David Fuchs|<span style="color: #cc6600;">Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs</span>]]<sup><small>[[User talk:David Fuchs|<span style="color: #ff6600;">(talk)</span>]]</small></sup> 17:24, 27 March 2019 (UTC)
:Agree with David and Masem here. There's insufficient one-to-one correlation between engvar and date format to use the presence of one to definitively determine the other. [[User:Oknazevad|oknazevad]] ([[User talk:Oknazevad|talk]]) 17:49, 27 March 2019 (UTC)
::Which is why we have separate [[WP:ENGVAR]] and [[WP:DATEVAR]]. --[[User:Izno|Izno]] ([[User talk:Izno|talk]]) 20:49, 27 March 2019 (UTC)
*Date formats are the tools of Satan. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color: red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color: blue;">Eng</b>]] 20:59, 27 March 2019 (UTC)
*'''No.''' We've been over this about 1,000 times at [[WT:MOSNUM]]. Date formatting is generally a per-publisher matter. For example, the US military prefers DMY format, while various non-American publishers, especially online news sites, use MD,Y format (likely because their [[Content management system|CMS]] came configured that way by default and they didn't bother changing it). <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 05:26, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

*Also '''no'''. Concur with Masem: "{{tq| Date format and English variety are treated very separately, and one should not go to change one based on the state of the other.}}" &diams;&nbsp;[[User:J. Johnson|J.&nbsp;Johnson&nbsp;(JJ)]] ([[User_talk:J. Johnson#top|talk]]) 20:08, 3 April 2019 (UTC)
* '''No.''' Appearance of dmy in English needn't indicate a British source: it may indicate translated text, or text aimed at an international audience that is in English becauses it's the international ''lingua franca'' and uses dmy (or ymd) because [[Date_format_by_country|that's what almost all countries use]]. [[User:Mathglot|Mathglot]] ([[User talk:Mathglot|talk]]) 23:10, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

===MOS change re independence of dates and ENGVAR===
* I suggest MOS updates to explicitly note the lack of correlation. I don't see it covered at the moment. [[User:Jmar67|Jmar67]] ([[User talk:Jmar67|talk]]) 20:29, 3 April 2019 (UTC)
*: It {{em|does}} seem to come up frequently, though [[MOS:DATE]] would be the place for that. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 21:12, 3 April 2019 (UTC)
*::Here's a start: [https://en.wikipedia.org/?diff=890846505]. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color: red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color: blue;">Eng</b>]] 22:29, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

== Labeling images as "Figures" in captions ==

The article [[Seabee]] [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Seabee&oldid=890050248 previously had] its images labeled as figures with "Fig. #" in each caption, with references to them in the text. This is not explicitly mentioned at [[Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Captions]] but it is clearly nonstandard. I see this as quite unnecessary if the images are appropriately placed in the relevant section. My removal of these apparently "[https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Reywas92&type=revision&diff=890671242&oldid=890663389&diffmode=source amounts to vandalism]" because one must be "academically advanced" to understand the relationship between an image and the adjacent text it relates to. [[Naval Mobile Construction Battalion 11]] is another example, and [[Naval Mobile Construction Battalion 133]] shows how easily these can get out of order when images are reorganized. This is a rare enough case that the MOS doesn't appear to explicitly mention this, other than perhaps "The text of captions should not be specially formatted", but does anyone have thoughts on it? [[User:Reywas92|Reywas92]]<sup>[[User talk:Reywas92|'''Talk''']]</sup> 23:59, 2 April 2019 (UTC)
:Yes, not our style, except in a minority of cases where a set of similar images is needed, and needs keying from the text. Not here. [[User:Johnbod|Johnbod]] ([[User talk:Johnbod|talk]]) 00:03, 3 April 2019 (UTC)
::Looking at [[Naval Mobile Construction Battalion 11]] and [[Naval Mobile Construction Battalion 133]], it's really hard to follow. The references in the text to figures interrupt the reading flow, and for most of them I have to scroll to find the correct figure (then try to find my place in the text again). And some figures aren't mentioned in the text at all. When they are called out, the image is seldom necessary to the understanding of the text (here's a picture of the ship). MOS says "Avoid referring to images as being to the left, the right, above or below, because image placement varies with platform, and is meaningless to people using screen readers; instead, '''use captions to identify images'''. The first image in [[Naval Mobile Construction Battalion 133]] doesn't even have a caption, just fig 1. Not helpful to those who use screen readers. [[User:Schazjmd|Schazjmd]] ([[User talk:Schazjmd|talk]]) 00:13, 3 April 2019 (UTC)
:::And ''figure'' properly refers not to photographs, but to illustrations.  And it sounds a bit Victorian.  And it's ambiguous with other uses of ''figure'' (e.g. to mean 'numeral'). <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 01:49, 3 April 2019 (UTC)
::::It's common in U.S. publications to designate any illustrative material, including photos. I very frequently employed it in my work writing software documentation. This article was apparently based on such a publication. [[User:Jmar67|Jmar67]] ([[User talk:Jmar67|talk]]) 02:43, 3 April 2019 (UTC)
:::::"Someone somewhere in some field does it anyway" is a poor rationale to do something unhelpful. And screenshots from a program or OS are technically illustrations (digital ones) not photographs anyway. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 06:38, 3 April 2019 (UTC)
::::::Due to the length of the article, I can't determine whether numbering is useful here (I edit with the mobile version). If the text needs to refer to specific illustrations, then some sort of numbering is helpful. In publications, numbering also permits a potentially useful list of figures as part of the table of contents. [[User:Jmar67|Jmar67]] ([[User talk:Jmar67|talk]]) 12:14, 3 April 2019 (UTC)
:I also object to figure-numbering unless there is a ''very'' compelling special-case reason, and I would put it in the MOS, as I do see both new and old editors doing it. Same topic came up in [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Chemistry#Figure numbers and MOS]] recently, where nobody supported figure-numbering but several opposed it. [[User:DMacks|DMacks]] ([[User talk:DMacks|talk]]) 06:46, 3 April 2019 (UTC)
::I also encounter it frequently enough (not just lately, but in my entire tenure here) that I also think we should address it, but at [[MOS:IMAGES]], not in the main MoS page, which is already really dense. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 10:54, 3 April 2019 (UTC)
:::I agree that it should go in an image/caption-specific subpage in the set of MOS pages. [[Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Captions]] and [[Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Images#References_from_article_text]] are the two sides of this equation (writing the caption and referring to an image from the prose). [[Wikipedia:Manual of Style#Captions]] is a bullet-point summary of [[Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Captions]] and I'm not sure this is important enough to include there. [[User:DMacks|DMacks]] ([[User talk:DMacks|talk]]) 18:04, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

I believe the ''distinction'' made between "figures" (diagrams, "graphics", etc.) and photographs (images, etc.) is an older one, arising from technical aspects of printing, also evidenced in the older practice of printing photographs on separate stock that was then bound in a book. Modern printing technology does not require such separate handling, and the modern practice is, as Jmar67 says, to simply and generically call all non-text illustrative material "figures". On that basis I see no objection to calling an "image" a "figure".

But the issue raised is not so much the ''term'' used – would "{{tq|images labeled as <s>figures</s> <u>images</u> with "<s>Fig.</s> <u>Images</u> #" in each caption}}" ''not'' be an issue? – as the ''labeling'' of each image, and particularly, ''labeling with a serial index number''. While images generally stand apart from the text (with any explanations needed done in the caption), occasionally there is a need to refer unambiguously to a specific image (such as a map), and therefore some kind title or label is needed. It might be helpful to provide some guidance on this, perhaps with a suggestion that labels can also be anchors.

Journals and technical documents routinely serially number all figures (a serial number being easier to locate than arbitrary text). The problem with doing this with explicit numbering is that additions or deletions of figures may require extensive renumbering. Note that there is a similar situation in regard of numbering equations. For equations we have the {{tl|NumBlk}} and {{tl|EquationRef}} templates, which provide automatic serial numbering of equations similar to how the &lt;ref> system handles notes. I don't know that we have anything similar for figures. In lieu of some similar automated system (and at the risk of establishing a "customary style" such that future editors will object to any other way) I think we should provide some guidance for labeling or titling figures ("images"). &diams;&nbsp;[[User:J. Johnson|J.&nbsp;Johnson&nbsp;(JJ)]] ([[User_talk:J. Johnson#top|talk]]) 20:02, 3 April 2019 (UTC)
:I concur that the numbering is an issue, but the [[WP:SELFREF]] practice of unnecessarily "talking at" the reader ("see Fig. 2", "as shown in the image to the left", etc.) is also problematic and should be avoided when possible.  So, when is it not possible?  Doesn't proper captioning always make it possible?   Isn't context otherwise going to resolve it?  When would one need to tell the reader that something is shown on a map, when it's obvious the map is included to show it?  While using non-numeric labeling,, and anchors, is more sensible in this medium that numbering or referring to layout position, I'm skeptical we should encourage people to do this.  If there really are good use cases, how to we distinguish them from crappy ones? <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 21:19, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

::When the text addresses some point that is identified on a map, why should we ''not'' specify which map?

::A topic often warrants multiple maps, often overlapping in scope but at different scales, with different but overlapping sets of elements. If the maps are more than mere ornamentation they likely contain elements the text addresses, and the reader may be seriously confused if he looks at the wrong map. Generally we rely on adjacency: there is an implication to refer to the nearest map.  However, this does not always work. In particular, there is a problem with mobile devices: they don't properly display a lot of maps, leaving the reader looking at the wrong map.

::Note that I am ''not'' saying we should ''encourage'' people to label and/or title their images (though that seems to be a good idea). I am saying that given certain cases where it would be useful, should we have some guidance. &diams;&nbsp;[[User:J. Johnson|J.&nbsp;Johnson&nbsp;(JJ)]] ([[User_talk:J. Johnson#top|talk]]) 19:44, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

== Question on [[MOS:CONSECUTIVE]] ==

I requested a change to the MP for a sentence ending with "[[Florenz Ziegfeld Jr.]]." (quotation marks just to highlight the string here), asking to eliminate the second period and citing [[MOS:CONSECUTIVE]]. The admin challenged the request by saying that the first period was "abbreviation punctuation" and not "terminal punctuation". Surely the intent is to cover this situation as well, i.e., do not duplicate a character (period) that serves as terminal punctuation, regardless of the character's function. At least that was what I learned in school. Does anyone think that the quoted phrase is correct and should not be changed? It definitely looks strange. [[User:Jmar67|Jmar67]] ([[User talk:Jmar67|talk]]) 02:58, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

:I just fixed it, as I have done for years, even though that guideline says "word or phrase" not abbreviation. [https://www.chicagomanualofstyle.org/qanda/data/faq/topics/Punctuation/faq0040.html Chicago Manual reference] [[User:Art LaPella|Art LaPella]] ([[User talk:Art LaPella|talk]]) 03:17, 2 April 2019 (UTC)
::It seems impossible to believe there was any question about this. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color: red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color: blue;">Eng</b>]] 19:16, 2 April 2019 (UTC)
:::Yes, and ''abbreviations'' is a subset of ''words'', so there is no problem in the guideline phrasing (here, or in ''Chicago'', which we don't follow, though it has informed a lot of what MoS says). <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 01:54, 3 April 2019 (UTC)
:"The admin" is wrong (and being an admin doesn't give anyone more authority over a content or style matter; it's unrelated to adminship tasks). <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 01:54, 3 April 2019 (UTC)
::The admin challenged my request in good faith based on his interpretation. He did not claim that he was right or refuse to make the change. Based on the MOS wording, I could not immediately prove that I was right (although I was convinced I was) and decided to ask here to gain some support. [[User:Jmar67|Jmar67]] ([[User talk:Jmar67|talk]]) 02:30, 3 April 2019 (UTC)
::It would be good to add an example of an abbreviation ending a sentence. [[User:Jmar67|Jmar67]] ([[User talk:Jmar67|talk]]) 03:03, 3 April 2019 (UTC)
:::It has one (the "...&nbsp;Sammy Davis Jr." example). <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 08:04, 3 April 2019 (UTC)
::::It was added after my post and apparently in response to it. [[User:Jmar67|Jmar67]] ([[User talk:Jmar67|talk]]) 11:13, 3 April 2019 (UTC)
:::::Yar.  Just noting that it's resolved. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 21:12, 3 April 2019 (UTC)
::::::It was I who added it, but in retrospect I realize I was unthinkingly violating my precept that MOS should not speak to points which are universal to all good English writing, unless they have for some reason been a repeated problem here at WP. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color: red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color: blue;">Eng</b>]] 14:27, 4 April 2019 (UTC)
:::::::Adding the example was useful because it illustrates a case the other example did not, that of consecutive periods. I agree that we should not have needed to point that out because the majority of editors would have seen it as an error and fixed it. However, when an editor has to have someone else make a change (in this case the admin), it helps to provide an MOS link that provides clear guidance, ideally with examples of what is wrong. I was reluctant to justify the change by saying "It should be obvious that this is an error." I never anticipated that someone might object to the request. [[User:Jmar67|Jmar67]] ([[User talk:Jmar67|talk]]) 21:33, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

== First-use acronym expansion within a quotation ==

Unless this is handled somewhere in the MoS I haven't found, I propose that we add to the MoS that if the first use of an acronym occurs within a quotation, the "expanded" acronym should be added in brackets after the acronym; and that if a link is appropriate, that the link occur on the expansion rather than the acronym.  As an example, taken from [[Ethiopian Airlines Flight 409#Investigation|this article section]] I've edited, the first-use acronym "CRM" would look like this:

:''"...resulting in a loss of control and their failure to abide by CRM <nowiki>[</nowiki>[[Crew Resource Management]]<nowiki>]</nowiki> principles of mutual support..."''

This proposal resolves a discrepancy between:

* The MoS rule [[Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Abbreviations|here]] that "The abbreviation style used in quotations from written sources should always be written exactly as in the original source"; and
* The MoS rule [[Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Abbreviations|here]] that "When an abbreviation will be used in an article, first introduce it using the full expression".

Supporting my proposal:

* I believe it's important to expand first-use acronyms for the lay reader, per the above policies
* I believe we should not put words in the mouth of the original speaker or writer by just substituting the expansion for the acronym, particularly because browsers' in-page search will not find the quotation if we change it silently with a straight substitution
* I believe in-quotation expansion is better than defining it before or after the quotation, for understandability as the reader reads, and also because doing so would be very clunky
* I believe it is widely understood that in English, brackets indicate words not spoken or written in the original.  
* My proposal to link the expansion rather than the acronym is only because to me, it seems more apt because the expansion within brackets is a definition, and a link dives even deeper on the definition.

(I originally posted about this at the help desk [[Wikipedia:Help_desk#Style_question:_acronym_expansion_within_a_quotation|here]], where [[User:Teratix]] suggested I bring this up on an MoS talk page.)  [[User:On Sober Reflection|On Sober Reflection]] ([[User talk:On Sober Reflection|talk]]) 12:19, 27 March 2019 (UTC)

::No need for anything new in the guideline. The use of brackets to explain something unfamiliar in a quotation is, as you note, well established; linking here is completely natural; and this isn't peculiar to acronyms. What you did makes perfect sense. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color: red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color: blue;">Eng</b>]] 13:50, 27 March 2019 (UTC)
:::I'd just like to say that this is one of the most clean proposals that I've seen in a long time.[[User:Naraht|Naraht]] ([[User talk:Naraht|talk]]) 14:01, 27 March 2019 (UTC)
::::I agree, but there's still no need for a change to the guideline. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color: red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color: blue;">Eng</b>]] 22:11, 27 March 2019 (UTC)

*My personal preference would be  "[[Crew Resource Management]] (CRM)". [[User:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|Gråbergs Gråa Sång]] ([[User talk:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|talk]]) 18:45, 27 March 2019 (UTC)
*:You're changing the quotation. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color: red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color: blue;">Eng</b>]] 19:17, 27 March 2019 (UTC)
::Huh? I'm replying to the OP. [[User:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|Gråbergs Gråa Sång]] ([[User talk:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|talk]]) 20:49, 27 March 2019 (UTC)
:::Ok, now I get it. Quote. Disregard. [[User:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|Gråbergs Gråa Sång]] ([[User talk:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|talk]]) 20:52, 27 March 2019 (UTC)
::::Well, you're onto something. The cleaner approach is to mention "[[crew resource management]] (CRM)" in the introductory material before the quote, so that "CRM" in the quote needs no explanation. That's much smoother than injecting a square-bracketed editorial explanation in mid-quote, when this "pre-mentioning" tactic is practical in the context.  When it's not and an insertion is necessary, I agree with EEng that our existing rules already permit this, so not guideline change is needed. PS: It's not a proper name, so "crew resource management" not "Crew Resource Management". <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 05:25, 2 April 2019 (UTC); revised: 02:09, 3 April 2019 (UTC)
::::: I'm against altering an original quote to add an expansion. While adding it in introductory material is cleaner, I'd take care to ensure that the source clearly specifies the expansion ''somewhere'' in the text, if not in the quoted part, to ensure that Wikipedia editors are not making an assumption about what the expansion means. Most of the time, there's no issue there (as in the CRM example).  Although even here, absent a positive statement in that source, are you 100% sure or just 98% sure it's ''crew resource management'' and not ''[[cockpit resource management]]'' (a redirect in this case, but different words nevertheless)? If it's not expanded somewhere in the source, we shouldn't either. [[User:Mathglot|Mathglot]] ([[User talk:Mathglot|talk]]) 23:26, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

::::::Yes. Brackets are not for augmenting quotatons. I disagree that "{{tq| in-quotation expansion is better}}" than ''anything''. If the quoted material includes an expansion, but for some reason it is not suitable (too cumbersome?) for direct quotation, then brackets might be used for a summary paraphrase. But if the expansion was elsewhere in the source (or nowhere), then it should be presented prior to the quotation. Surely there are very few cases (if any) where this cannot be done. &diams;&nbsp;[[User:J. Johnson|J.&nbsp;Johnson&nbsp;(JJ)]] ([[User_talk:J. Johnson#top|talk]]) 19:54, 5 April 2019 (UTC)

== Spin-off of MOS:GENDERID into its own sub-guideline ==

Please see 
*[[Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Gender identity]]

[[MOS:GENDERID]] is the focus of intense discussion in many places. This topic is overdue for having its own subarticle in the Wikipedia Manual of Style.

To establish this article, I attempted to avoid even presenting guidance, and instead compiled a list of many prior discussions on which basis we will collectively establish consensus.

If anyone has something to say about this then please comment on the talk page there at [[Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Gender identity]]. Thanks. [[User:Bluerasberry|<span style="background:#cedff2;color:#11e">''' Blue Rasberry '''</span>]][[User talk:Bluerasberry|<span style="background:#cedff2;color:#11e">(talk)</span>]] 23:36, 24 March 2019 (UTC)
:[[User:Bluerasberry|Bluerasberry]], I question the title of the page since that page, in its [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Gender_identity&oldid=890260276 current state], is not actually a guideline and [[Wikipedia:Gender identity]] is more of a guideline page than that one is. [[User:Flyer22 Reborn|Flyer22 Reborn]] ([[User talk:Flyer22 Reborn|talk]]) 00:14, 2 April 2019 (UTC)
::It was also tagged {{tlx|Essay}}, which would definitely mean move it somewhere else, like under [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Gender Studies]] or something. I've changed this to {{tlx|Draft proposal}}, since the intent appears to be actually drafting new language and proposing it, after the listed discussions are analyzed.  I could see that living under "WP:Manual of Style" temporarily (several other draft proposals have).<p>However, only about a year or two ago we had a discussion about another draft of an identity-related MoS addition (which actually had a lot of input into it and substance to it, unlike this one). I even proposed integrating parts of it into [[MOS:IDENTITY]], but the entire thing was rejected, moved somewhere else, and tagged with {{tlx|Failed proposal}}. A repeat is fairly likely.  Back around 2016 or so there were also a slew of competing "harassment"-related proposals (all also deeply entwined with gender-identity politicking), and they all also came to nought.  I don't think this will work either, because it's yet another attempt to [[WP:POLICYFORK]] instead of to propose a {{em|small}} incremental change to the existing guideline, and see if the community will accept it, and whether it has any longer-term fallout; then propose another small change.  This kind kind of "suddenly remake Wikipedia in my own image, as drafted off on some other page by me and my buddies" stuff never works.<br /><span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 05:22, 2 April 2019 (UTC)</p>
:::{{ping|Flyer22 Reborn|SMcCandlish}} At [[Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Gender_identity#Recommendations]] it says, "there is not yet identified consensus to make recommendations", which I think is where consensus for the Manual of Style is right now. I favor centralizing conversation on this topic in one place, and I think many people would watch and reply if conversation progressed there. [[User:Bluerasberry|<span style="background:#cedff2;color:#11e">''' Blue Rasberry '''</span>]][[User talk:Bluerasberry|<span style="background:#cedff2;color:#11e">(talk)</span>]] 13:53, 2 April 2019 (UTC)
::::The page at which to do that is this one, since people watchlist it and it's where MoS changes get hashed out, by people who actually have some experience thinking through what [[WP:Writing policy is hard|unintended effects]] any changes to these guidelines may have. Perhaps also later at [[WP:VPPOL]], if the change seems major and also well-developed enough that the entire community needs to look it over. Some page no one's ever heard of isn't going to be very effective for this, and is apt to fall into [[WP:FALSECONSENSUS]] problems. (See, e.g., all the various "harassment"-related proposals a few years ago; they all turned into half echo chamber and half flame war, with no consensus emerging for any of them.) <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 01:47, 3 April 2019 (UTC); note added: 02:06, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

::::[[User:Bluerasberry|Bluerasberry]], yes, I saw that. Per what I stated above, I still don't think that the page should be titled as though it's a guideline. The page is not really a proposal. At least not yet. And we already have enough newbies and other less inexperienced editors confusing essays and other pages for guidelines and policies. [[User:Flyer22 Reborn|Flyer22 Reborn]] ([[User talk:Flyer22 Reborn|talk]]) 01:10, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

:::I kind of agree with SMc. The MoS's guidelines on gender identity do need to be reconsidered and updated, but if the goal here is to come up with a whole page's worth of new guidelines and then get the community to agree to them, I am a little skeptical.
:::I do think the page is useful in the form it is now, however, with its annotated discussion timeline and its links to gender identity guidelines and essays. I could also see its talk page becoming a central place to talk about gender identity guidelines. I assume if, in the end, the page wound up as more of a link repository and discussion hub, rather than a set of specific recommendations, that it would have to be considered an "essay" and not an official part of the MoS? But I wonder, in that case, if it would be appropriate for the MoS to still link to it. [[user:WanderingWanda|Wandering<span style="color:#e3256b;">Wanda</span>]] (they/them) ([[User_talk:WanderingWanda|t]]/[[Special:Contributions/WanderingWanda|c]]) 14:47, 2 April 2019 (UTC)
::::A few MoS pages have informational supplement sub-pages ([[MOS:ACCESS]] has several). However, an index of previous discussions (which is all this is at present) really belongs as a subpage of [[Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive index]], and wouldn't have its own talk page. However, about three years ago, a conceptually similar set of pages – hand-maintained sub-indexes of topics of particular interest to particular editors – was deleted at MfD (I think one of them got user-spaced by request rather than deleted) as basically a canvassing and PoV-pushing factory, since the exercise naturally involved a lot of cherry-picking of what to include, and the few people who were (and in this new case, are) creating and maintaining those pages are all of a single mind-set with a single goal of changing an extant guideline (an extant consensus) to something else. It has [[WP:NOT#ADVOCACY]] issues. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 01:47, 3 April 2019 (UTC)
:As another approach, you could have a seperate guideline page that is wholly subservient to GENDERID, designed to provide more explanation and considerations into how to apply, rather than trying to define any new rules that GENDERID does not already say. It is like how [[WP:NFCC]] is a policy page on non-free content, whereas [[WP:NFC]] is meant more of a guideline and explanatory. Not only could this be done for GENDERID but also for issues related to dead naming, etc. since these all are closely linked. AGain, the new page should not be "new" rules, but how to interprete the existing ones, provide examples and guidance, etc. --[[User:Masem|M<span style="font-variant: small-caps">asem</span>]] ([[User Talk:Masem|t]]) 14:45, 2 April 2019 (UTC)
::Possibly, yes. This is basically what all the MoS sub-guidelines are. However, almost all of them are old, and were spun out out simply for length reasons ([[WP:SUMMARY]], [[WP:SPLIT]]). Getting the community to accept new ones is very difficult. After 18 years, how much new style guide can we possibly need? Most proposals to change or add to MoS at this stage are poorly reasoned (and PoV-pushing), and are rejected. I'll come back around to where I started on this: It's more practical to suggest specific, incremental changes, right here, and see if they get accepted, and to submit any really substantive changes as an RfC at [[WP:VPPOL]] or a [[WP:PROPOSAL]] at [[WP:VPPRO]], and cross-reference from the other VP page, and use [[WP:CENT]], and so on. No section of MoS has been subject to more heated debate and outright strife. The idea that we can just draft a sweeping change and everyone will go along with it is pure fantasy, I'm afraid. Changing a single word in this section is a challenge. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 01:47, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

I'm curious why this is called [[Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Gender identity]] rather than simply [[Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Identity]], where we can document all of the various ways people self-define and self-identify and how we should defer to those. Gender, sexual orientation, racial identity, ability status, political persuasion, social class, religion, and so many more ways that people can identify which may contradict older [[WP:V|reliable sources]]. To devote a MOS guideline to only one aspect of [[intersectionality|intersectional]] identity is exclusionary. -- [[User:Netoholic|Netoholic]] [[User talk:Netoholic|@]]  19:26, 2 April 2019 (UTC)
:Whether the scope of the page should be expanded is worth considering, but I disagree that focusing in on one particular group is necessarily "exclusionary". Gender identity seems to generate an especially large amount of argument and confusion on here, so it's easy to understand why it might get special attention. [[user:WanderingWanda|Wandering<span style="color:#e3256b;">Wanda</span>]] (they/them) ([[User_talk:WanderingWanda|t]]/[[Special:Contributions/WanderingWanda|c]]) 23:00, 2 April 2019 (UTC)
:{{ec}} See previous comment; exactly what you suggest (a general ''identity'' guideline page) was already drafted, hashed out in great detail by many people, left stable for a while, proposed for formal adoption here, and ended up a {{tlx|Rejected proposal}}. (It began as "WP:Naming conventions (identity)" which now just redirects to MOS:IDENTITY. The draft is archived at [[Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Identity (failed proposal)]]; the discussion about it is archived at [[Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 194#Merge draft WP:Naming conventions (identity) to MOS:IDENTITY?]]). Even MOS:IDENTITY's material on ''Arab''/''Arabic''/''Arabian'' and other such terms was relocated to [[MOS:WTW]], and only after a lot of wrangling to keep any of it at all. There's a general community hostility to "legislating" about this stuff in the guidelines. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 01:47, 3 April 2019 (UTC)
:: Thanks for the links. Certainly if a broader identity guideline has failed to gain consensus, then its probably a waste of time and resources to deal with a more specific subset of identity, as it involves all the same issues.  Should we mark [[Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Gender identity]] as a [[WP:REDUNDANTFORK]] of a {{tl|failed proposal}}? -- [[User:Netoholic|Netoholic]] [[User talk:Netoholic|@]]  02:19, 3 April 2019 (UTC)
::: {{tq|if a broader identity guideline has failed to gain consensus, then its probably a waste of time and resources to deal with a more specific subset}} - This makes no sense to me at all. In general, broader proposals are naturally going to be harder to get consensus on than narrower proposals. [[user:WanderingWanda|Wandering<span style="color:#e3256b;">Wanda</span>]] (they/them) ([[User_talk:WanderingWanda|t]]/[[Special:Contributions/WanderingWanda|c]]) 15:40, 4 April 2019 (UTC)
:::We don't need a broader MOS guideline for identity in general because gender identity presents special ''style'' considerations, especially with regard to gendered language (i.e. he vs. she pronouns, etc.)  that ''other'' forms of self-identity (race, ethnicity, linguistic, national origin, sexual orientation, etc. etc.) do not necessarily present.  While those topics may have content-based considerations, and may need guidance in other parts of the Wikipedia help system, those considerations are not ''style'' considerations.  The Manual of Style deals primarily with ''how to properly use language'' like grammar and spelling and the like, and not with the myriad other issues regarding identity.  Of the various expressions of identity, gender itself presents a ''style'' concern, such as "which is the correct pronoun to use".  --[[User:Jayron32|<span style="color:#009">Jayron</span>]][[User talk:Jayron32|<b style="color:#090">''32''</b>]] 16:23, 4 April 2019 (UTC)
:::: The other identity categories also have their own special style considerations, such as what term(s) for ethnicity someone may want to identify with ("Black" vs. "African-American"). Likewise, what terms they want to use to describe their ability status (ex. "deaf" vs "hard of hearing"). Certainly people want to define how to classify their political ideologies ("alt-right" vs "conservative"). And obviously sexual orientation has a myriad of terms across a spectrum.  It seems incredibly narrow and dismissive to only focus on one class of identity (especially, and not being dismissive, trans status which applies to a much smaller set of articles than some of these other considerations). -- [[User:Netoholic|Netoholic]] [[User talk:Netoholic|@]]  10:58, 6 April 2019 (UTC)
:::::Those are important decisions to make, and perhaps Wikipedia should deal with them, but those are not the bailiwick of the ''style'' guide, which should deal with issues of grammar and spelling and punctuation and capital letters and the like.  The MOS is not designed for handling every aspect of editing Wikipedia, merely those aspects that deal with ''style''.  --[[User:Jayron32|<span style="color:#009">Jayron</span>]][[User talk:Jayron32|<b style="color:#090">''32''</b>]] 14:09, 9 April 2019 (UTC)