View source for Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Dungeons & Dragons/Forgotten Realms

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== TfD nomination of Template:{{ucfirst:Forgotten-Realms-Wikia}} ==

[[Template:{{ucfirst:Forgotten-Realms-Wikia}}]] has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at [[Wikipedia:Templates for deletion#{{{2|Template:Forgotten-Realms-Wikia}}}|the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page]]. Thank you.<!--Template:Tfdnotice--> — [[User:Jeepday|Jeepday]] <small>([[User talk:Jeepday|talk]])</small> 03:54, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

== FR Wiki ==
What to do about the [http://forgottenrealms.wikicities.com FR Wiki], should we start moving info over there? The regional sites (i.e. [[Northwest Faerûn]]) are great to have here, but the lesser known places will always be stubs, as I see it, and might be better suited at FR Wiki? Any opinions?[[User:Poulsen|Poulsen]] 14:37, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
:I didn't know about this Wiki. Goals of this wikiproject are:
:* Not reinventing the wheel
:* Centralising information
:* Focusing on state geography
:Obviously, there are conflicts with FR Wiki. Could you contact them and ask if they want to participate? Whatever is their answer, since they ar use GNU licence, we should start copying their informations, as you suggest. A proposal would be to copy-and-paste and let [[survival of the fittest]] determines which one will eventually succeed in the long run (for now on, notice there is nothing about Cormyr in FR Wiki, which is quite worrying regarding their completeness). [[User_talk:Vrykolaka|Reply]] to [[User:Vrykolaka|David Latapie]] 21:38, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
::I've already made a notice in their main discussion page, I'll write here when/if they respond. Until now the only thing on there is Drizzt and a few Drizzt-related items, so this FR-database is far the best.[[User:Poulsen|Poulsen]] 21:58, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
:::no answer after more than one week :/[[User_talk:Vrykolaka|Reply]] to [[User:Vrykolaka|David Latapie]] 02:46, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
::::Hi, I'm the admin of FR Wiki. I've just come off of a busy period in my life but I'm ready to help. 
Further to your comments: FR wiki is not all about Drizzt, that's just what I had to start with when I took over from the previous admin. I've personally been adding more articles, but as I stated on the main page I'm only one man and I need help from you guys to get it further off the ground. Admin positions are available.
I'm willing to help with the mapping project but I would also like some people to help me. We can talk about a merger if there is significant demand for it.
[[User:hashimashadoo|hash]] 09:47, 20 January 2006 (GMT)
:Just to clarify - when I wrote it was all about Drizzt, it was November 23rd, and it *was* all about Drizzt, as the then admin "Drizzt" seemed to have an interest in that specific topic.. Anyways, I'ld love to help out as much as my time allows, I'm just a little confused as to what extent we can freely copy material from wikipedia to wikicities? [[User:Poulsen|Poulsen]] 09:58, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
::Alright, just answered that myself - as long as we're reproducing the free content here at another free content webside it is no problem, so I'm with you hash. [[User:Poulsen|Poulsen]] 10:02, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
:And the rest of you? Poulsen has already moved a tonne of geographical stuff to FR wiki. I'm looking to get as many editors as possible. [[User:Hashimashadoo|hash]] 14:36, 27 January 2006 (GMT)

===Spam banner by FR Wiki moved===

I've just moved a banner from the top of this WikiProject page that tells people to ignore this project and submit material to the FR Wiki instead. From what I could see, they make no attempt to co-ordinate articles back here on Wikipedia. While a degree of cooperation is probably desirable, Wikipedia is a general encyclopedia and people should be able to find some level of information about Forgotten Realms here.

So I'm suggesting that their banner is deleted entirly. If they want to have an advert here (or on a Forgotten Realms portal page, should one be created) that is another thing, but their current message is negative hype that will hurt this project. 00:45, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
:I (founder of this very Wikiproject) created another banner yesterday. Only today did I see your message I am currently responding too. As I stated multiple times, I am very concerned about imperfect duplication of data. Tell me what you think of my initiative, because I really don't know what to think of it (it seems they are not playing fair, but I can't say much more).

* [[Template:Forgotten-Realms-Wikia|Template]] 
* [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Cold_Lands&oldid=115942958 Example] <small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[User:David Latapie|David Latapie]] ([[User talk:David Latapie|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/David Latapie|contribs]]) 15:08, 18 March 2007 (UTC).</small><!-- HagermanBot Auto-Unsigned -->

::Guys, it's not a competition. It's not a "spam banner". It's not about "our wiki is better than your wiki". Many of the Forgotten Realms related detail and information is much too specific for Wikipedia, and would be deleted if added here. The editors at FR-wiki ''could'' come back here and reproduce the same information, but different templates, layouts and styles are used on that wiki, so much extra work is involved. In essence this is merely duplicating data, when a simple summary of the topic and a link to the FR-wiki at Wikipedia would be more appropriate. [[User:Fw190a8|Fw190a8]] 03:03, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

:::How about every wikimedia system in the world come and put their mark in every article in Wikipedia ? every article will be filled with SPAMs, making them un-readable. I don't think so. --[[User:Cynehelm|Cynehelm]] 15:47, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

::::Your assertion is non-sensical, [[User:Cynehelm|Cynehelm]]. There are very few other "wikimedia systems" which might contain an article on (for example) Amn, the fictional Forgotten Realms country, with greater detail than Wikipedia. Even fewer have actually marked the fact that they have greater detail than Wikipedia. (One has: Forgotten Realms Wiki.) Aside from this, the original discussion here relates to the removal of a banner at the top of a project page. This project had already been declared inactive by its founder, [[User:David Latapie|David Latapie]], who has encouraged the use of Forgotten Realms Wiki, to a point. Please note that this [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AWikiProject_Forgotten_Realms&diff=106371638&oldid=102606590 banner was added] by the very founder of the project. Cynehelm, I would like to encourage you to read Wikipedia's [[WP:CIV|civility policy]] with regard to your last comment because it could have been phrased more constructively. [[User:Fw190a8|Fw190a8]] 01:43, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

::::There you are, promoting the FR wiki yet again. Listen, if this project is DEAD doesn't mean that all FR articles here are dead, doesn't mean people stop updating fr articles, they can do so regardless of this project. i myself a fr freaak never noticed this project until someone invited me. The goal of this project was focused on the "Geography" of FR, which does not cover every fr articles. If you want to put that fr wiki has an article thing, i think you can put them in the external link or references sections. I didn't check with wiipedia policy, but what you are doing now is a bad demonstration. Soon there will be tons of templates such as bob's web site has an article about this, my shop sell this thing, etc. 
--[[User:Cynehelm|Cynehelm]] 03:33, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

:Hey, you two, stop it. While I do '''''slightly''''' agree with Cynehelm, I think it would be best if the box remained, but was instead re-worded to sound a little less hostile, even though it probably wasn't meant to be. Maybe something allong the lines of "Another wiki, called Forgotten Realms Wiki, also features information on this subject.". [[User:James.Denholm|James.Denholm]] 10:16, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

== Template ==
=== New entries ===
==== Government ====
As for your suggestion about adding a ''government'' entry in the template box, this is a good idea. Do you know how to do it or do you want me to do it? I would be better if you did it, as you would be able to teach to others as well. You know, give a fish or teach how to fish… [[User_talk:Vrykolaka|Reply]] to [[User:Vrykolaka|David Latapie]] 21:38, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

== Proposed rearrangement ==

:[[Northwest Faerûn]]
::[[High Forest]] 
::[[Waterdeep (city)]] <- <s>[[Skullport]]</s>
::[[Silver Marches]] <- <s>[[Mithral Hall]]</s>
:::[[Silverymoon]]
::[[Anauroch]] <- <s>[[Empire of Shadows]]</s>, <s>[[Hlaungadath]]</s>, <s>[[Reghed]]</s>
::[[The Savage Frontier]]
::[[Sword Coast]] <- <s>[[Icewind Dale]]</s>, <s>[[Luskan]]</s>, <s>[[Mirabar]]</s>, <s>[[Ten Towns]]</s>
:[[North Faerûn]]
::[[Cormanthor]] <- <s>[[Myth Drannor]]</s>
::[[The Vast]]
::[[The Dalelands]] <- <s>[[Archendale]]</s>, <s>[[Battledale]]</s>, <s>[[Daggerdale]]</s>, <s>[[Deepingdale]]</s>, <s>[[Featherdale]]</s>, <s>[[Freedale]]</s>, <s>[[Harrowdale (Forgotten Realms)]]</s>, <s>[[High Dale]]</s>, <s>[[Mistledale]]</s>, <s>[[Moondale]]</s>, <s>[[Sessrendale]]</s>, <s>[[Shadowdale]]</s>, <s>[[Scardale]]</s>, <s>[[Tarkhaldale]]</s>, <s>[[Tasseldale]]</s>, <s>[[Teshendale]]</s>
::[[The Moonsea]] <- [[The Ride]], [[Thar (Forgotten Realms)]], [[The Tortured Land]]</s>, <s>[[Dragonspine Mountains]]</s>, <s>[[Melvaunt]]</s>, <s>[[Mulmaster]]</s>, <s>[[Northkeep]]</s>, <s>[[Voonlar]]</s>, <s>[[Zhentil Keep]]</s>, <s>[[Phlan]]</s>
:[[Northeast Faerûn]]
::[[The Unapproachable East]] (east and northeast) <- <s>[[Great Dale]]</s>, <s>[[Impiltur]]<s>, <s>[[Rashemen]]</s>, <s>[[Aglarond (Forgotten Realms)]]</s> (<- <s>[[Altumbel]]</s>), <s>[[Thay]]</s>, <s>[[Thesk]]</s> (<- <s>[[Ashanath]]</s>, <s>[[Telflamm]]</s>)
::[[The Cold Lands]] <- <s>[[Sossal]]</s>, <s>[[Damara (Forgotten Realms)]]</s>, <s>[[Vaasa (Forgotten Realms)]]</s> 
:::[[Narfell]]
::[[The Hordelands]] <- <s>[[Winterkeep]]</s>
:[[West Faerûn]]
::[[Western Heartlands]] <- <s>[[Castle Darkhold]]</s>, <s>[[Daggerford]]</s>, <s>[[Dragonspear Castle]]</s>, <s>[[Evereska]]</s>, <s>[[High Moor]]</s>, <s>[[Scornubel]]</s>, <s>[[Secomber]]</s>
::[[Lands of Intrigue]]
:::[[Tethyr]] <- <s>[[Erlkazar]]</s>, <s>[[Edificant Library]]</s>
:::[[Calimshan]]
:::[[Amn (Forgotten Realms)|Amn]]
::::[[Athkatla]] <- <s>[[Waukeen's Promenade]]</s>
:[[Interior Faerûn]]
::[[Cormyr]], [[Dragon Coast]], [[Sembia]]
::[[The Vilhon Reach]] <- <s>[[Chondath]]</s>, [[Sespech]], <s>[[Turmish]]</s>, <s>[[Shining Plains]]</s>, <s>[[Hlondeth]]</s>
:[[East Faerûn]]
::[[Old Kingdoms (Forgotten Realms)]] <- <s>[[Murghôm]]</s>, <s>[[Semphar]]</s>, <s>[[Chessenta]]</s>, <s>[[Mulhorand]]</s>, <s>[[Unther]]</s>
:[[Southwest Faerûn]]
::[[Chultan peninsula]] <- <s>[[Chult]]</s>, <s>[[Tashalar]]</s>, <s>[[Samarach]]</s>, [[Thindol]]
:[[South Faerûn]]
::[[Shaar]], [[Halruaa]]
::[[Lake of Steam]] <- [[Lapaliiya]], <s>[[Border Kingdoms]]</s>
:[[Southeast Faerûn]]
::[[Ulgarth]]
::[[Shining South]] (south and southeast) <- <s>[[Dambrath]]</s>, <s>[[Durpar]]</s>, <s>[[Estagund]]</s>, <s>[[Rethild]]</s>, <s>[[Var the Golden]]</s>, [[Veldorn]], <s>[[Great Rift]]</s>, <s>[[Luiren]]</s>
:[[Underdark]]
::[[Menzoberranzan]]
:[[Island Kingdoms of Faerûn]] <- <s>[[Moonshae Isles]]</s>, [[Nelanther Isles]], <s>[[Lantan]]</s>, <s>[[Nimbral]]</s>, <s>[[Tharsult]]</s>, <s>[[Prespur]]</s>
::[[Evermeet]]
:[[Lost Empires of Faerûn]] <- <s>[[Athalantar]]</s>, <s>[[Eaerlann]]</s>, <s>[[Guge (Forgotten Realms)]]</s>, <s>[[Illefarn]]</s>, <s>[[Ilythiir]]</s>, <s>[[Imaskar]]</s>, <s>[[Jhaamdath]]</s>, <s>[[Miyeritar]]</s>, <s>[[Netheril]]</s>, <s>[[Raumathar]]</s>, <s>[[Shantel Othreier]]</s>, <s>[[Coramshan]]</s>, <s>[[Eastern Shaar]]</s>, <s>[[Pelvuria]]</s>, <s>[[Ammarindar]]</s>, <s>[[Deep Shanatar]]</s>

The main goal of the mergings is to cut down on stubs, and create pages, not of long prose, but overview of each region, with links and references to further reading. Minor geographical sites will be merged with countries or regions, there will still be 9 geographical regions, plus three additional meta-regions, Underdark, Island Kingdoms of Faerûn (minor islands across Faerûn), Lost Empires of Faerûn (historical countries). 
:''Last update by [[User:Poulsen|Poulsen]] 00:09, 17 December 2005 (UTC)''.
:: Poulsen: the [[Geographical_index_of_Toril#Geopolitical_sorting_.28Faer.C3.BBn_only.29|rough geopolitical sorting]] should ''only'' sort sovereign places (plus some places like Western Heartlands) Your above rearrangement is only for ''internal work'', what to merge and what not to. That is why ''Erlkazar'', for instance, is at the same level as Tethyr on the geopolitical sorting, while it is not (because it will be merged) in your above rearrangement. [[User_talk:Vrykolaka|Reply]] to [[User:Vrykolaka|David Latapie]] 06:11, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

==Discussion of above arrangement==
I will rearrange the discussion, as it becomes too dense. I use history to know what you changed, I think it is the best idea. Until you reply, I keep the old text under comments. If everything's OK, I will remove it late.

=== Regions ===
Reuse your above index. Regions (such as ''Land of Intrigue'', ''Old Empires''...) should ''not'' have their own article but would help people figuring out how are the Realms and so are useful for a general mapping (like a “welcome screen”).
Example: where is Nicaragua? In Central America. I guess you see the point.

=== (Temporary) Merging ===
Good idea with these additional infos:
* Provided enough information is given, the place will ultimately get its own article. Think CIA World Factbook.
* Let's use your [[User_talk:David_Latapie/Thesk_variant2|own variant]] as a starter (a very good one, I like it very much)
* Modify it that way:
** ''2. Official Material'' => ''2. Official Material (Thesk)''  
** ''3. External Links'' => ''3. External Links (Thesk)''
Granted, it does not respect stantard Wikipedia style, but our article doesn't respect it either, so...
* Moved articles should have a redirect, right to the section (not the page: ''Thesk#Telflamm'' instead of ''Thesk'').
* Maybe also an introductory notice like ''this is a concantenated article about...'' in order to avoid good-will people to change the whole thing. I'm not sure it is necessary, though, as we are the only one working on it :-) So let's consider this as an option.

In the midst of your edits, I tried to merge the sources/links/.. in my variant, in the moved-to location, [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Forgotten Realms/Concatenated article]], to 1) not have redundant section names, and 2) concentrate the links/info in one place, making it easier to access. [[User:Poulsen|Poulsen]] 11:25, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

=== Free cities vs. other cities ===
* As you said, oddities like Waukeen's Promenade should be merged with the corresponding city (Athkatla, in that case)

* Attention: I continually speak of ''sovereign '''places''''', not sovereign states — this is on purpose. I consider Waterdeep (or arguably Telflamm) as a sovereign place. They are free cities. I don't know for Baldur's Gate, but Athkatla definitely is '''not''' a sovereign place. It is capital city. Check the [[Geographical_index_of_Toril#Cities-states|Cities-states]] entry. This project is about sovereign places, I'd like to avoid any confusion on this. A possibility could be to use the FR Cities templates for non-sovereign cities exclusively — which, on you list, would leave only Athkatla as a candidate.

* Clusters of free cities (like Ten Towns or the various cities in Western Heartlands) should be grouped together. Renaissance's Venice should have its own entry, but not Middle Ages's Lyon, for instance.

Oh, I had never seen that index before, that's immensely helpful! @Athkatla, you're right about it being the only city eligible. So let us (me) leave the city templates alone and take one problem at a time, the merging/non-merging-question.[[User:Poulsen|Poulsen]] 11:25, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

<!--  O L D   T E X T

:Hi
:I'm a bit relunctant to do it because it means some informations (like several maps and templates, as well as highly specific links) would be lost.
:On the other hand, I agree with you it would make more sense to give higher visibility to some places. Actually, even once the article will be more than stubs (one can dream…), it would still be a good idea, as it would help people localising places.
:Can we get the best of both? I have a proposal: make redirects to anchors in main file (i.e.:Theask''#Telflamm''). <del>I don't know if</del> It is possible to get several template on the same page. <del>I hope as we could avoid losing any information.</del> I came up with an example for [[Thesk]]. I also added a [[User_talk:David_Latapie/Thesk_variant|variant]] [[User_talk:Vrykolaka|Reply]] to [[User:Vrykolaka|David Latapie]] 02:09, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
::Me again. I noticed some non-sovereign states (like Waukeen's Promenade) in your classification. I suggest the core classification remain state (well, sovereign places)-based. It means three things:
::# articles such as Waukeen's Promenade should not have their own template. It makes no sense :-)
::# the present concatenation of several sovereign places into one should be considered as a temporary situation (howerver long it last). As such, we should always keep in mind, that provided enough information is given, the place will ultimately get its own article. Think CIA World Factbook.
::# Moved articles (if we decide to do so) should have a redirect, right to the section (not the page: ''Thesk#Telflamm'' instead of ''Thesk''). And no information should be put on the article itself but the redirection
::I'm not sure I'm understandable… [[User_talk:Vrykolaka|Reply]] to [[User:Vrykolaka|David Latapie]] 02:44, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
:::I went through the entire FR places category, and so I found a few oddities, like Waukeen's - which should definitely be merged with Athkatla. It's so insignificant.
:::: I tend to agree. I guess it is because of the videogame, but I did not even read the page. Go on, merge :-) [[User_talk:Vrykolaka|Reply]] to [[User:Vrykolaka|David Latapie]] 10:36, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
:::I think your 'CIA World Fact Book' analogy is good, and I can agree that every sovereign state should get its own page, so I'll scrap the ''Lands of Intrigue'', and similar concepts.
::: Better idea: don't create specific articles for this concepts, but keep them mentionned somewhere, as they help figuring out the grand schemes of the Realms (where is Nicaragua? In Central America. I guess you see the point).
::: However, I still think that the more places are in one page, the more people will see it and (dare I hope) contribute a few lines here and there. If you read through the external links on your (variant) Thesk page, it's exactly the same pages used in all three articles - I've made my [[User_talk:David_Latapie/Thesk_variant2|own variant]] in your user pages, just to keep the stuff together (hope you don't mind).
:::: Not at all :-) Actually, I would have preferred to put these variants under the Wikiproject, but I don't know if it is possible to create subpages out of user pages. If it is possible, I think it is a better solution. What do you think? As for your variant, it is very good, I like it very much. Just one thing, that I don't really know what to think about: I would sugget the main entries (namely ''2. Official Material'' and ''3. External Links'') have a extension mentionning they are talking about Thek only, not the other related place. So it would be ''2. Official Material (Thesk)'' and ''3. External Links (Thesk)''. Granted, it does not respect stantard Wikipedia style, but our article doesn't respect it either, so...
::: I've also made a [[:Template:Infobox Forgotten Realms Cities]] - for Baldur's Gate, Athkatla, and so on - I added it to my variant even though it might be a good idea only to use it with substantial city articles, as the info in the infobox might be more useful in the written article itself (like with Telflamm). I also edited a 'minor country' box into my variant, but come to think of it, that info might also be more useful in the article itself. [[User:Poulsen|Poulsen]] 12:18, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
:::: Attention: I continually speak of ''sovereign '''places''''', not sovereign states — this is on purpose. I consider Waterdeep (or arguably Telflamm) as a sovereign place. They are free cities. I don't know for Baldur's Gate, but Athkatla definitely is '''not''' a sovereign place. It is capital city. Check the [[Geographical_index_of_Toril#Cities-states|Cities-states]] entry. This project is about sovereign places, I'd like to avoid any confusion on this. A possibility could be to use the FR Cities templates for non-sovereign cities exclusively — which, on you list, would leave only Athkatla as a candidate.
:::Hmm, [[Thesk]] is actually rather uncomplicated to merge - the hardest will be to merge articles with many sources each, I've tried to edit my variant in a way to seperate the sources - it's hard to get your head around I think.[[User:Poulsen|Poulsen]] 14:09, 4 December 2005 (UTC)-->

== Maps ==

I was just wondering if it is kocher to be using WotC's maps of Faerûn? Wouldn't they be considered copyright work? It might be safer to make our own. &mdash; [[User:RJHall|RJH]] 15:54, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
:: This is why I added the '''fair use''' template. And I sincerely think this Wikipedia project gives publicity to Forgotten Realms. Companies never say no to  free ads :-)
::: Well the '''fair use''' clause says, "For each use of this image, please provide a detailed rationale as to why this image qualifies as fair use." I'm not seeing that in these images. So as a precaution it would make sense to me to come up with a boiler-plate clause; otherwise the images may get challenged and subsequently deleted. I don't believe that "free ads" falls under that law. [[Fair_use#Fair use under United States law|Fair use]] was intended for such purposes as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, or research. :) &mdash; [[User:RJHall|RJH]] 17:31, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

== Proposal for new template entries ==
Hi,

I added a section for [[Wikipedia:WikiProject_Forgotten_Realms#Proposed|proposing new template entries]]. My first proposal is worship.<br />
''comments : only for major worships. See ''Chondath'' for example''<br />
[[User_talk:Vrykolaka|Reply]] to [[User:Vrykolaka|David Latapie]] 06:07, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

:Is there a FR city template for page entries such as [[Silverymoon]]? &mdash; [[User:RJHall|RJH]] 23:27, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

::There's a [[:Template:Infobox Forgotten Realms Cities]], maybe you can use that? or change it in a way so you can.[[User:Poulsen|Poulsen]] 23:42, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

:::That works. Thanks. &mdash; [[User:RJHall|RJH]] 19:38, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

:Worship sounds relevant, so I'ld say go ahead. Though, with the massive mergings, a lot of places have lost that country template because of space issues. [[User:Poulsen|Poulsen]] 10:04, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

== Geography focus ==

I'm curious and confused about why this project is focused solely on the [[geography]] of [[Faerûn]]. The Fogotten Realms encompasses much more than this, and several regular contributors to FR-related wikipedia articles have stressed they prefer instead to edit works on the characters, deities, history and species of FR. So why the focus on geography? 

It's an admirable task, but it seems needlessly narrow to make it so specific when a WikiProjectFR should encompass all FR has to offer. -[[User:Erolos|Erolos]] 20:31, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
:David Latapie studies geography so I think that is why he focused the project on that. But I think a bigger scope would be great. [[User:Poulsen|Poulsen]] 22:34, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
::Poulsen sum it up quite well. Also, I was thinking of a ''Grand Tour of the Realms''/''Elminster's Ecolologies'' or ''CIA World Factbook'' thing. Maybe should we rename the Wikiproject ''Forgotten Realms Geography'' and make a big ''Forgotten Realms'' project for encompassing everything. I'm OK with this, although I would not help on the rest. Go ahead[[User_talk:Vrykolaka|Reply]] to [[User:Vrykolaka|David Latapie]] 18:40, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

== WikiProject RPGs ==
Hello - while looking at articles for [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Role-playing games]] I've stumbled upon one of your templates.  It's funny to discover that the project has a (taxonomic) descendant that predates it by quite a bit!  Anyway, hello from us at WP:RPG, and let us know if we can help in any way! [[User:Percy Snoodle|Percy Snoodle]] 13:02, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
:Hi. Yes I see you put a {{tl|ForgottenRealms-stub}} over there. Thanks. &mdash; [[User:RJHall|RJH]] 22:04, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

== Active? ==
Is this project still active? last substantial edit to this page is around the 20th january, and the FR wiki seems equally quiet, although I've been adding some stuff over there (including some stuff I borrowed here). It's not much, but if you see soemthing you like, feel free to paste it over here :) FR Wiki Contribs[http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Special:Contributions/Zerak-Tul] [[User:Zerak-Tul|Zerak-Tul]] 20:10, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
:Yeah, I haven't had an answer from any members of this project for a long while now. I'm wondering where everyone's gone. [[User:Hashimashadoo|hash]] 15:31, 18 April 2006 (GMT)
::I pop over every once in a while to see what's happening. Otherwise the only thing I've done lately is throw together a [[High Forest]] page. &mdash; [[User:RJHall|RJH]] 22:08, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

== Copyrights ==

Hello everyone. I'd like to help the Wikiproject Forgotten Realms the best way I can. I have a small wiki for my home campaign, but I usually refrain from publishing its address because of the use of images and text (altough small) copyrighted by WotC. Lots of information here is IP of WotC. How's that work? Just like any fan home page? I mean, we can post all fluffy stuff here? Like the Maps discussion above, where should we stop? --[[User:Dsaraujo|Anand]] 17:57, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
:Hello, hello. It looks like any of the pages under [[:Category:Forgotten Realms stubs]] could use some expansion, if you're interested. :) &mdash; [[User:RJHall|RJH]] 22:11, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
:As far as how far we can go is concerned, I believe most of it is a case of ''"look for precedent"'' and then try to model it at that level. Having said that, some pages do tend to extend beyond the definition of being encyclopedic. I believe the main aim should be to provide enough information for people to gain an understanding of what the topic is about ''(ie as would any encyclopedia)'', but not go too far that you are basically copying large sections from the source material or spelling everything out such that people can use this material as a ''"one stop shop"'' for everything they need on the topic. Somewhere in that grey area lies the answer. [[User:Enigmatical|Enigmatical]] 04:36, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

==Currency of the Realms==

I know this is beyond the scope of this project, but bear with me for a second.  I've just been thinking about an article detailing the monetary currency of the Realms, or failing that adding sections on money and economics to articles on the various nations and areas.  I have the information courtesy of ''Power of Faerun'' and ''City of Splendors: Waterdeep,'' but don't know if it'd fly as an article.  Good idea?  Bad idea?  Suggestions?  [[User:Rogue 9|Rogue 9]] 17:15, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

== FR-related template ==

Since that many in the wikipedia community voiced that they don't live the way the FR people/places/events are described as if thsoe were real in the real world, 

I propose to add a "This is a FR-related Article" templte, 
so that this can be put on every FR-related page. 

It will look like this : {{tl|ForgottenRealmsArticle}}

The wording could use some help, if anyone. 

I have tried this on [[Elminster]] already. 

Voice your opnion if you like.

:This template has a fair use image in it, so it is unsuitable. Secondly, it serves no purpose, since articles state (usually in the first line) that they relate to the Forgotten Realms. I think this just adds unecessary clutter to the article. Sorry. [[User:AgentLewis|Lewis]] 22:01, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

== Netheril deleted! ==

Great!

They deleted [[Netheril]] whithout even considering the whole wikiproject. See my reply: [[User_talk:Awyong_Jeffrey_Mordecai_Salleh#Netheril|reply]]. If anyone has an archive of it…<br /><small>[[User:David Latapie|David Latapie]] ([[User_talk:David Latapie|✒]] | [[Special:Emailuser/David Latapie|@]])</small> 08:01, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

:Deleting parts of the project without looking at the overall picture, that's just incredible. If they don't have a back-up, we can use the [http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Netheril FR Wiki article], but the list of resources will be lost. [[User:Poulsen|Poulsen]] 08:48, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

::ignore that.. [[User:Zerak-Tul|Zerak-Tul]] 12:30, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

:::About the discussion of Netheril's deletion, you can find it at [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Netheril]]. I suspect Netheril was nothing more than a redirect to [[Lost Empires of Faerûn]], or at least it should be according to our taxonomy. I've recreated the redirect. [[User:Poulsen|Poulsen]] 13:34, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

== Project Directory ==

Hello. The [[WP:COUNCIL|WikiProject Council]] is currently in the process of developing a master directory of the existing WikiProjects to replace and update the existing [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Directory]].  These WikiProjects are of vital importance in helping wikipedia achieve its goal of becoming truly encyclopedic. Please review the following pages: 
*[[User:Badbilltucker/Culture Directory]], 
*[[User:Badbilltucker/Culture Directory 2]], 
*[[User:Badbilltucker/Philosophy and religion Directory]], 
*[[User:Badbilltucker/Sports Directory]], 
*[[User:Badbilltucker/Geographical Directory]], 
*[[User:Badbilltucker/Geographical Directory/United States]], (note: This page will be retitled to more accurately reflect its contents)
*[[User:Badbilltucker/History and society directory]], and
*[[User:Badbilltucker/Science directory]]

and make any changes to the entries for your project that you see fit. There is also a directory of portals, at [[User:B2T2/Portal]], listing all the existing portals. Feel free to add any of them to the portals or comments section of your entries in the directory.
The three columns regarding [[:Category:WikiProject assessments|assessment]], [[:Category:WikiProject peer reviews|peer review]], and [[:Category:Wikipedia collaborations|collaboration]] are included in the directory for both the use of the projects themselves and for that of others. Having such departments will allow a project to more quickly and easily identify its most important articles and its articles in greatest need of improvement. If you have not already done so, please consider whether your project would benefit from having departments which deal in these matters. 
It is my hope to have the existing directory replaced by the updated and corrected version of the directory above by November 1. Please feel free to make any changes you see fit to the entries for your project before then. If you should have any questions regarding this matter, please do not hesitate to contact me. Thank you. [[User:Badbilltucker2|B2T2]] 21:24, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

:Sorry if you tried to update it before, and the corrections were gone. I have now put the new draft in the old directory pages, so the links should work better. My apologies for any confusion this may have caused you. [[User:Badbilltucker2|B2T2]] 00:13, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

== Moonsea article ==

the article on the [[Moonsea]] seems to be innacurate.  I can eventually fix some of it up, but my internet connection is at work and my books are at home, so its difficult to fix.  I left a comment on the talk page; if someone could check it out and verify it that would be awesome.  If no one fixes it after this weekend, I'll try to work on it.  [[User:PStrait|PStrait]] 02:19, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

== Fair Use Image in Banner ==

I noticed your banner; it has a fair use image in it which I believe is prohibited in templates.  Just a heads-up.  See ya.  '''''[[User:DoomsDay349|<span style="color:darkblue;">Dooms</span>]][[User talk:DoomsDay349|<span style="color:lightblue;">Day34</span>]][[User:DoomsDay349/Esperanza|<span style="color:darkgreen;">9</span>]]''''' 00:06, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

== Joining ==

Hi was wondering how I go about joining this project.  Created a wikipedia account specially so don't be put off by my lack of any edits

== Proposal to change the focus of WikiProject Forgotten Realms ==

I noticed that Mr. Poulsen who started this has removed himself from the list, good speed then.
Is project going to rot ? Or would someone step forward and arrange things?

One more thing is that, this project is titled as WikiProject Forgotten Realms.
However its goal is only to cover the geography of FR, not people, not history, not products. 
I propose that either the project name should be changed, or that the goal be changed to cover ALL FR articles.

Of course, provided this project is not dead yet.--[[User:Cynehelm|Cynehelm]] 23:23, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

:LOL.  I look to join the project and it almost immediately dies.  NatashaUK - the kiss of death to wikipedia.  Ah well.  Cynehelm - I totally agree with your comment.  I thikn the project should be extended - there's no point in just discussing the geography of the realms and not its peoples/cultures/etc.  I'm gonna carry on as if the project is going and make a start tonight on some of the religiomn stubs.[[User:NatashaUK|NatashaUK]] 13:00, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

:I'm still here.  If the project needs a coordinator or something, I could step up, but I've never really been heavily involved in a particular Wikiproject before, much less tried to run one.  [[User:Rogue 9|Rogue 9]] 12:02, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

:Thanks for you.  Howver i am afrid that this project has to move on, deciding ''why'' it exists. Next, it has to decide ''what'' to do. ''We'', as participating members, should put these together. 

:I propose that the goal of this project be changed to cover ALL FR-realted topics including people, events, religion, out-universe products, etc. The reason is simple : it is pointless to simple describe ''places'' in the Forgotten Realms without discussing its ''history'', its ''current states'', which would in turn involved people, relogion, organizations, which eventually covers the FR world. 

Let everyone voice their opnion.--[[User:Cynehelm|Cynehelm]] 15:11, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

:I've changed the title of this discussion section to "Proposal to change the focus of WikiProject Forgotten Realms" as it is more meaningful than "What now?". I've also moved the notice stuck at the top of the main page that says this WikiProject is inactive as it is obviously going to make people avoid joining the project. (To be honest I can't find anywhere on that external wiki that coordinates '''any''' work on Wikipedia articles on the Realms, so think that it should be treated as spam and deleted completely, but I'll allow you to discuss that first.)

:I've also added a supporter section and put myself into it. I'll help out when I can, but I'll mostly be working on things relating to Realmspace (where FR meets Spelljammer). I agree with the call for the focus of this project to be changed to all Forgotten Realms material (and think that that should be put onto the main page). I even think that novels, computer games and FR spin-off campaign settings (Arcane Age, Al-Qadim, Kara-Tur Maztica and The Horde) should fall under the remit of this project (unless/until a WikiProject dedicated to those other things takes over). However, that doesn't stop the WikiProject from putting geography of Faerun at the top of the to-do list if they want to. 00:33, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

=== Some clarification on this project ===
Poulsen did not started this project. I did. But Poulsen was the second greatest contributor after me. My goal was to create an entry for any country, or at least a reference (I am a geographer, by the way, must be professional habit :)). I fulfilled my goal and was a bit disappointed that no one helped more on it. Shall this project have a second awakening now? Well, better late than never as they say…

If you want to expand it, go for it. I will personally not delve into non-geographical topic but may help in the overall structure. Nevertheless, I encourage people to work on http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com, so as to avoid fragmentation of data. They have my blessing for the continuation (not that it is technically required, but still) and are a better tool for encyclopedias on fictional things. See also [[Template:Forgotten-Realms-Wikia]].

If you want to contact me, please send me an e-mail notification (see my signature) as I don't have time to check Wikipedia. At the very least, post me a notification on my talk page.<br /><small>[[User:David Latapie|David Latapie]] ([[User_talk:David Latapie|✒]] | [[Special:Emailuser/David Latapie|@]])</small> 02:50, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

:As [[User:David Latapie|David Latapie]] said, he was the founder of the project. I was intrigued by the structure of the geographical articles, and put some time into that subject. However, I lost the interest for the project in the long run as I have no real content to add, merely doing structuring and spell/grammar fixing. So that's why I left - I hope you get the project up and running again. [[User:Poulsen|Poulsen]] 11:31, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

:I think that geography is important, but what makes the Forgotten Realms the greatest campaign setting of all time is its lore, so I think we should concentrate on describing, in the limit of copyright, characters, events and places. I see geography as a good start, but if anyone here is still interested, I propose we move on to a new level. <br />[[User:Kelvon|Kelvon]] 03:30, 26 April 2007 (EET)

== Wikipedia Day Awards ==

Hello, all. It was initially my hope to try to have this done as part of [[Wikipedia:Esperanza|Esperanza's]] proposal for an appreciation week to end on Wikipedia Day, January 15. However, several people have once again proposed the entirety of Esperanza for deletion, so that might not work. It was the intention of the Appreciation Week proposal to set aside a given time when the various individuals who have made significant, valuable contributions to the encyclopedia would be recognized and honored. I believe that, with some effort, this could still be done. My proposal is to, with luck, try to organize the various WikiProjects and other entities of wikipedia to take part in a larger celebrartion of its contributors to take place in January, probably beginning January 15, 2007. I have created yet another new subpage for myself (a weakness of mine, I'm afraid) at [[User talk:Badbilltucker/Appreciation Week]] where I would greatly appreciate any indications from the members of this project as to whether and how they might be willing and/or able to assist in recognizing the contributions of our editors. Thank you for your attention. [[User:Badbilltucker|Badbilltucker]] 17:26, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

== Wikipedia/forgottenrealms-wikia.com cooperation ==

I'm very concerned about imperfect duplication of content. Is there any plan about ensuring there is no subtantial difference between the two wikis? It must be made by a human, at least because of the real-world links that do not make sense in Wikia (and the introductory text also.

I think the best thing is that someone just subscribe to all present FR entries in Wikipedia, check the differences and updae accordingly. This is a very time-consuming and ungrateful job, though.

Any thoughts on this?<br /><small>[[User:David Latapie|David Latapie]] ([[User_talk:David Latapie|✒]] | [[Special:Emailuser/David Latapie|@]])</small> 15:03, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

:That would be a huge job, and what's the point? Creating duplicate articles in both Wikipedia and FR is far harder than it may sound. The two projects use different templates, template names, different image names, different writing convensions, different styles etc. etc. So each page will take a lot of work before it can be forked over. And as it is currently, the FR Wikia has only about enough editors to keep it active, and this wiki project seems to have even less people. 
:Further more Wikipedia is problematic (e.g. they deleted ''[[Netheril]]'' at one point, geez..). And seemingly this project is only geography related, so yeah..
:Last but not lest, regarding [[Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Forgotten_Realms#Spam_banner_by_FR_Wiki_moved|this comment]] - that was by no means a FR Wikia spam banner. The banner was put up by Latapie because he felt his project was dead, and he might as well lead people somewhere where they could find what they were looking for. We at the FR Wikia didn't initiate or create this banner. [[User:Zerak-Tul|Zerak-Tul]] 20:18, 3 April 2007 (UTC) [http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/User_talk:Zerak-Tul @ Wikia]


==Template==
While working on the [[User:Triddle/stubsensor/20070206|stubsenor project]] I found this tag {{tl|Forgotten-Realms-Wikia}} 
<div>''Please consider contributing at [http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/{{PAGENAME}} the Forgotten Realms Wikia entry for {{PAGENAME}}] instead.</div>'' on the page [[Tethyr]].  My first impression is that it is spam for a non-Wikipedia site.  Can anyone tell me why it should be on any article in Wikipedia? At first glance it appears to be a request for money to be donated, but after reading some of the entries above I see it is an attempt to encourage editors to contribute their time at http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com instead of at Wikipedia.  [[User:Jeepday|Jeepday]] <small>([[User talk:Jeepday|talk]])</small> 03:38, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
:Please read the sections above, this was already discussed at length.. The banner was not created nor added to Wikipedia articles by any editor of the FR Wiki, only David Latapie used the template, as well as authored it - yet we came out of it looking as spammers.. [[User:Zerak-Tul|Zerak-Tul]] 21:03, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

== New guideline on fiction: Delete FR-related articles? == 
I would like to call the attention of members of this project to the recently revised guideline at [[WP:FICT]], which now states that all sub-articles on fictional subjects must independently meet a new (stricter) notability ruling than what was in place prior to the new guideline. If enforced, the new guideline would likely result in the deletion and/or merging of hundreds of articles on fictional subjects, such as fictional characters, television episodes, fictional locations, etc. There is active discussion / disagreement related to this issue at [[Wikipedia talk:Notability (fiction)]], and in the interests of ensuring the topic is fully discussed by interested editors, I would invite members of this project to participate in that discussion (whether you agree with the new guideline or not). [[User:Fairsing|Fairsing]] 21:54, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

==Slew of Deletions==
:Don't know if people are even paying attention around here anymore, but [[Dove Falconhand]], [[Qilué Veladorn‎]], [[Dragonbait]], [[Alustriel Silverhand‎]], [[Wulfgar (Forgotten Realms)‎]] and [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Game-related#Game-related deletions|a slew of other D&D articles]] are up for deletion.  [[Szass Tam]] has already been deleted. [[User:BOZ|BOZ]] 12:39, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
Yes I've been watching those. Unfortunately it is difficult sometimes to find independent sources for some of this material; a necessity to meet the [[WP:FICT]] notability requirements. I found a few for [[Bruenor Battlehammer]], for example, but [[Furyondy]] is proving quite difficult. It may be that Wikipedia just isn't the best place to host this type of material. Possibly some of it could be migrated over to one of the other sister projects? Otherwise another wiki entirely may be the best bet. &mdash; [[User:RJHall|RJH]] ([[User_talk:RJHall|''talk'']]) 19:41, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

== Menzoberranzan on the main wiki site for deletion ==

I feel that thispage does not need to be deleted as a lot of people do not knowof the FR wiki site.  <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/63.97.226.5|63.97.226.5]] ([[User talk:63.97.226.5|talk]]) 20:06, 27 November 2007 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
==Sarrukh: The worst article I have ever seen==
I have added a note to the article [[Talk:Sarrukh]] to say that this is possibly the worst Dungeons and Dragons article I have ever read. This article really needs to be merged with a more notable topic before it gets deleted. Since I am not an "expert" on this topic, I am appealling for assistance here. --[[User:Gavin.collins|Gavin Collins]] ([[User talk:Gavin.collins|talk]]) 09:51, 18 January 2008 (UTC)


==Forgotten Realms project: Articles of unclear notability==
Hello,

there are currently 50 articles in the scope of this project which are tagged with [[Template:Notability|notability concerns]]. I have listed them [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Notability/Listing by project/Page 3#Forgotten Realms project|here]]. (Note: this listing is based on a database snapshot of {{date|2008-03-12}} and may be slightly outdated.)

I would encourage members of this project to have a look at these articles, and see whether [[WP:INDY|independent sources]] can be added, whether the articles can be [[WP:MERGE|merged]] into an article of larger scope, or possibly be [[WP:Guide to deletion|deleted]]. Any help in cleaning up this backlog is appreciated. For further information, see [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Notability]]. 

If you have any questions, please leave a message on the [[WT:WikiProject Notability|Notability project page]] or on [[User talk:B. Wolterding|my personal talk page]]. (I'm not watching ''this'' page however.) Thanks! --[[User:B. Wolterding|B. Wolterding]] ([[User talk:B. Wolterding|talk]]) 15:38, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

== Closure proposal ==

Hello,

this project seems currently inactive, and most of its articles are flagged for cleanup. If someone still has this page watchlisted, please see [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Forgotten Realms/Closure]] for a proposal how to close the project and handle the remaining issues consistently. Thanks, --[[User:B. Wolterding|B. Wolterding]] ([[User talk:B. Wolterding|talk]]) 09:15, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

: I will now start to implement the proposal. --[[User:B. Wolterding|B. Wolterding]] ([[User talk:B. Wolterding|talk]]) 19:59, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

== Historical ==

Following the MfD, I have now flagged the page as historical. If anybody disagrees, and wants to revive the project, feel free to revert. --[[User:B. Wolterding|B. Wolterding]] ([[User talk:B. Wolterding|talk]]) 19:59, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

== WikiProject Media franchises ==

'''Dear WikiProject Forgotten Realms participants'''...[[Wikipedia:WikiProject Media franchises|WikiProject Media franchises]] needs some help from other projects which are similar. Media franchises' scope deals primarily with the coordination of articles within the hundreds if not thousands of media franchises which exist. Sometimes a franchise might just need color coordination of the various templates used; it could mean creating an article for the franchise as a jump off point for the children of it; or the creation of a new templating system for media franchise articles. The project primarily focuses on multimedia franchises. It would be great if some of this project's participants would come over and help the project get back on solid footing. Also, if you know of similar projects which have not received this, let {{User|Lady Aleena}} know. Please come and take a look at the project and see if you wish to lend a hand. You can sign up [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Media franchises/Participants|here]] if you wish. Thank you. [[User:Lady Aleena|LA]]  @ 21:25, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

==Franchise naming convention discussion at [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Media franchises|WikiProject Media franchises]]==
'''Dear WikiProject Forgotten Realms participants'''...[[Wikipedia:WikiProject Media franchises|WikiProject Media franchises]] is currently [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Media franchises#Naming convention?|discussing a naming convention]] for franchise articles. Since this may affect one or more articles in your project, we would like to get the opinions of all related projects before implimenting any sweeping changes. Please come and help us decide. Thanks! [[User:Lady Aleena|LA]] ([[User talk:Lady Aleena|T]]) @ 22:28, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

== Work force? ==

Since this project has been inactive lately and [[WP:DND|the Dungeons & Dragons WikiProject]] has been covering most of its articles, I was wondering if there would be any opposition against creating a Forgotten Realms work/task force of the D&D project. Please add comments at [[WT:D&D]]. Thanks! -[[User:Drilnoth|Drilnoth]] ([[User talk:Drilnoth|talk]]) 18:59, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

== A call for formal cooperation between this 'work team' and [http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/ Forgotten Realms Wiki] ==

Forgotten Realms Wiki has been brought up several times in the discussion page.

In its early days, it seems to have been written off because it had too much focus on Drizzt.

Then I think Forgotten Realms Wiki expanded beyond that. I think more Wikipedians who like Forgotten Realms were getting frustrated by the 'delitionism' that has been affecting [[Dungeons and Dragons]] articles as a whole and there has been a "brain drain" from here to there.

Then that unhelpful 'abandon ship' style banner was put up here. It was me who moved the banner in the [[Wikipedia:WikiProject_Dungeons_%26_Dragons/Forgotten_Realms#Work_on_this_project_is_more_or_less_stalled|Work on this project is more or less stalled]] section and I said it was 'spam'. Maybe I shouldn't have used that word 'spam', as that seems to have caused a lot of unhelpful controversy. I still think the banner is wrong (although, if you check the page I didn't actually remove it). I have used Forgotten Realms Wiki and find the website extremely useful (and it gets more and more useful every day). But a banner put on this website that tells people to abandon this WikiProject (now one of the D&D WikProject teams) is very unconstructive.

Having said that, I said before that cooperation would be desirable. There has been talk of cooperation here (see [[Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Dungeons_%26_Dragons/Forgotten_Realms#Wikipedia.2Fforgottenrealms-wikia.com_cooperation|Wikipedia/forgottenrealms-wikia.com cooperation]]), but conversation about this died off last year.

Given that this WikiProject has stalled to the extent that nobody bothered to comment on the proposal to absorb this project as a 'work team' I think that we need to find a way to reinvent this work team in a way that is fun for Forgotten Realms fans.

And I think that I would like to see a 'positive' banner both here and somewhere over on Forgotten Realms Wiki that encourages joint work on the following things:
*Research on identifying all primary and secondary sources of Forgotten Realms canon (where secondary sources are probably more vital to Wikipedia than Forgotten Realms Wiki),
*Creation of a library of fan made images relating to Forgotten Realms that can be used in both places,
*Work on Forgotten Realms Wiki to turn it into a good "secondary source" for information on Forgotten Realms (so that '''all''' Wikipedia articles can be backed up by articles on FR Wiki),
*Work on Wikipedia to link all Forgotten Realms articles over to an appropriate article on Forgotten Realms Wiki (either by citating the FR Wiki article as a secondary source '''or''', if the FR Wiki article is one of the ones that is mostly copied and pasted from here, including it as a source of further reading - so that as the FR Wiki article expands, it '''can''' provide further reading),
*A program to ensure that '''no''' Forgotten Realms article is deleted, without that article content being offered to Forgotten Realms Wiki '''before''' deletion takes place (this would ensure that any subject relating to the Realms that is 'not important enough to be on Wikipedia' is still available over on FR Wiki),
*A retro-active program to ensure that all text of any previously deleted Forgotten Realms articles can be pulled out of the archive (by a friendly admin) and made available to FR Wiki,
*Some sort of outreach program to jointly inform Forgotten Realms fans about the work of both this work team and Forgotten Realms Wiki (so that if they '''are''' motivated to join in they know where to come for advice) and
*An education program (probably via tutorials and welcome banners) that can quickly explain the issues that the 'deletionist' are concerned about and help FR fans to write articles that are '''not''' going to get deleted.

This last thing is probably something that will be useful to the main part of this D&D WikiProject, but I think that some sort of 'how to' articles can ensure that people don't have bad experiences over here and then join the 'FR Wiki brain drain'. I think that both Wikipedia and Forgotten Realms Wiki have a part to play in educating people about the Realms. If we can help people with wiki skills to avoid making basic errors that lead to articles picking up tags, then they are going to have more fun here and may edit more articles. I am convinced that if a fan knew they could spend another minute to stop their work being challanged, that most of them would want to spend that minute to improve their work (rather than leave it to other people to rescue their articles).

I hope that with awareness of the issues and with cooperation, Forgotten Realms fans can be encouraged to work on both of these projects. Perhaps, in future, Wikipedia will be more of a summary of Forgotten Realms and Forgotten Realms Wiki will have full details on the colour of Drizzt's belly button fluff. So if that is the reality of where both of these resources are going, we should accept that situation and then reinvent the 'home page' of this 'work team' to ensure that people know how much FR coverage is needed here and that 'much more detailed coverage is desired by (what ''should be'') our 'sister project' over at Forgotten Realms Wiki'.

I think that if we can do some (or hopefully all) of these things, we can get the most use out of people with wiki editing skills. And I especially think that an outreach program that passes on news to places like the [http://forum.candlekeep.com/ Candlekeep forum], the multiple FR forums at [http://forums.gleemax.com/forumdisplay.php?f=715 Wizards of the Coast's forum] and the [http://www.thepiazza.org.uk/bb/viewforum.php?f=18 Forgotten Realms Forgotten Realms forum at The Piazza] would be a good way to gain secondary support by FR fans with no wiki skills. (I recently used The Piazza to ask for artwork for the [[giff]] article, so the same sort of thing could ''easily'' be done for Forgotten Realms subjects.) [[User:David Shepheard|Big Mac]] ([[User talk:David Shepheard|talk]]) 00:18, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

:FYI: I have posted a similar call for formal cooperation over at the FR Wiki forum. Here is the topic: [http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/index.php?title=Forum:A_call_for_formal_cooperation_between_this_wiki_and_the_D%26D_WikiProject_%27work_team%27_for_Forgotten_Realms&t=20090121011922 A call for formal cooperation between this wiki and the D&D WikiProject 'work team' for Forgotten Realms].  <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:David Shepheard|David Shepheard]] ([[User talk:David Shepheard|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/David Shepheard|contribs]]) 01:22, 21 January 2009 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
::I think that cooperation would be a great idea, but I can guarentee you that there would be a fair bit of opposition from the members of the Wikipedia community who think that there should be no reference to Wikia. Regardless, if you're planning to try and revive this project, I can help get the page moves and rewrites finished... I did very little when I made it into a task force, but will help out however I can if it's restarted! -[[User:Drilnoth|Drilnoth]] ([[User talk:Drilnoth|talk]]) 14:37, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
:::I'm sure that there would be '''some''' users who don't want Wikia promoted. However, with other users making claims that a large amount of D&D is not notable, it seems ethical to work in cooperation with a community that '''does''' want to move and reuse unwanted content. One thing I think we can argue is that Forgotten Realms Wiki is '''not''' the same thing as Wikia - they are just a community that is using Wikia to host their wiki. As far as I know Wikipedia users are not forbidden from using other wikis, so it is inevitable that a subset of editors at most other wikis are also Wikipedians. I think to say: "take this content down" and also say "don't cooperate with the people who want to take it and put it up" would be highly unreasonable of any people who might choose to try to derail any cooperation. But I think we will argue that case '''if''' someone stands in the way. All I am currently proposing is that D&D WikiProject (not Wikipedia as a whole) formally recognises Forgotten Realms Wiki as the best place for more detailed information about Forgotten Realms and then cooperates with that wiki to do what is best for the both wikis. Anyhoo, if we '''can''' get this part of D&D WikiProject restarted, your assistance would be very useful. [[User:David Shepheard|Big Mac]] ([[User talk:David Shepheard|talk]]) 01:22, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

:I'm sorry it's taken so long for me to reply here. [[User:David Shepheard|David]], your post above is very well thought out and constructive. I still feel that on the one hand, Wikipedia says "you cannot put Realms-related stuff here, because it is written in-universe, not notable enough, etc" and on the other hand it says "you cannot go to the Forgotten Realms Wiki and edit there, because you are abandoning ship". To me this does not make sense.

:I think it would be far more useful if editors were to think about what information needs adding, then decide whether that information has a place on Wikipedia. If it does, it can go in both places. If it doesn't, it can go on the Forgotten Realms Wiki. It would not be "abandoning ship" to put this information there, because there is no place for it on Wikipedia.

:I particularly like your ideas on moving information to FR-Wiki if deletion rears its head, and providing FR-Wiki articles as further reading. That's not to say that FR-Wiki articles are the ''only'' places it is possible to read further information outside Wikipedia. Zerak's point over on the [http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/index.php?title=Forum:A_call_for_formal_cooperation_between_this_wiki_and_the_D%26D_WikiProject_%27work_team%27_for_Forgotten_Realms&t=20090121011922 discussion] at FR-Wiki is still quite valid: sources for FR-related articles on Wikipedia would have to be 3rd party, limiting the amount of information that will be able to remain here. I hope the revival of this project under a slightly different guise will be more fruitful than the first attempt. Is there anywhere I can see what everyone has been up to on the Wikipedia end of this project? If not, perhaps we can set something up that will enable us to maintain some sort of inter-wiki communication. [[User:Fw190a8|Fw190a8]] ([[User talk:Fw190a8|talk]]) 12:07, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

::Thanks for the reply [[User:Fw190a8|Fw190a8]]. I've been delayed too, so no appologies are necessary. My time spent wiki-editing is now pretty restricted, which is why I'd now prefer to work in a more informed way and be more certain that my work will not be reverted.

::One thing that I think could be very useful is some sort of joint article that looks at Wikipedia's Notability guidelines and Forgotten Realms Wiki's similar (obviously less restrictive) policy and then gives the editor advice about the sort of level of detail that is appropriate for both wikis. A comparison of a good FR Wikipedia article and the same article on Forgotten Realms Wiki could help to highlight what should and shouldn't be here.

::On a secondary note, I think that a small amount of "brain-drain" over to Forgotten Realms Wiki is more constructive than having frustrated wiki editors that edit war with deletionists. The number of FR fans that have time to write about the Realms is finite, so isn't something that should be wasted. (And people who go over to Forgotten Realms Wiki with the blessing of the team here are far more likely to return and help later.) The editors over at Forgotten Realms Wiki form a pool of people with both the talant and the knowlege to help out on this wiki, so it would be crazy not to encourage them to help out here. As far as I am concerned, both of these projects are already united in principle. All I'm really asking for is to organise that, so that we don't get needless duplication of effort (on either side).

::There is a main page for [[Wikipedia:WikiProject_Dungeons_&_Dragons|WikiProject Dungeons & Dragons]]. If you surf over to that you will be delighted to see that 3 D&D articles have had Featured Article status, a further 18 (including some FR ones) are Good and 10 are B articles. There has recently been a '''real''' push to actually improve some of these D&D articles. I think that [[User:BOZ|BOZ]] has been responsible for a lot of good work, but he is not the only person working on this. But I think that if the FR community could search through the FR articles that are not yet FA articles, they could find out what is wrong with them and help to rectify those flaws. (And as I already said, a strategy to salvage the articles that can't be saved would be good for Forgotten Realms Wiki.) [[User:David Shepheard|Big Mac]] ([[User talk:David Shepheard|talk]]) 01:51, 14 April 2009 (UTC)