Wikipedia:Featured article review/Nigel Kneale/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Wikipedia talk:Featured article review. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was kept by Nikkimaria via FACBot (talk) 3:41, 31 July 2021 (UTC) [1].

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Nigel Kneale

Notified: Angmering, WikiProject BBC, WikiProject Biography/Arts and entertainment, WikiProject Isle of Man, 2021-03-24

I am nominating this featured article for review because the article is bloated, with numerous paragraphs per section. The article also has unreliable sources (including IMDB) and inconsistent formatting of references. No edits have been made since I posted the notice. Z1720 (talk) 23:33, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

• This revision from the time this FA was nominated in 2007 indicates not much has change. Same amount of references, same section length. 👨x🐱 (talk) 23:50, 27 April 2021 (UTC)
• I've divide the sections further so they're not bloated anymore, but for some the body text is now all italicized. I don't know what happen, I checked and I didn't see any incomplete italics in the source code to cause that. What happen? 👨x🐱 (talk) 00:20, 28 April 2021 (UTC)
  • @HumanxAnthro: - I have corrected the italics issue. There was an issue with incomplete italics in the Halloween 3 section. Hog Farm _Talk 14:29, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

• I will say, however, that the IMDb cite issue was far less severe than I thought it would be judging by the comments made. IMDb cites were used only a very, very small minority of the time, and it turns out we probably didn't need as all they did was cite release date, Kneale and other actors and filmmakers for credits in productions. Plus, all the other sources are HQ and reliable, so this article may not be in the red zone after all. 👨x🐱 (talk) 16:19, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

• Okay, so looking around, I'm trying to figure out what all still needs to be done here. There's two uncited spots, which I've tagged, as well as a large number of harv errors, most of which could probably be fixed by converting everything over to sfns. I haven't given this the full read-over, but this ought to be saveable, I think. Hog Farm _Talk 17:55, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
  • The layout has been vastly improved by sub-headings, so thanks to HxA for that edit. The IMDB references have been removed, but there are some other sources that might not be high quality. One is the Quartermass Homepage (Andrew Pixley): there is a book source for this organization but I cannot determine its editorial oversight of the website. Also, is ScreenOnline high quality? Z1720 (talk) 18:39, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
    • ScreenOnline seems to be affiliated with the British Film Institute. The Quatermass Home Page is partially written by Kneale himself, so it's a primary source and usage needs checked to make sure it's okay. The source I'm most concerned about is Off the Telly. Hog Farm _Talk 18:44, 1 May 2021 (UTC)

• Presumeably the Pixley & Nigel 1986 ref that's flagging an error should be Pixley & Kneale 1986, right? I can correct that, which will fix some of the harv errors, but since that is one of the sources challenged by Z1720 above, it may be better just to find an alternate source for that. Hog Farm _Talk 14:57, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
• Could we get an update on status here? `Nikkimaria (talk) 01:17, 15 May 2021 (UTC)

• HumanxAnthro? Nikkimaria (talk) 21:31, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

• I'm still updating the cite format. It's just taking a little bit to do so because of multiple sources that are from the same publication and authors. We're almost there. 👨x🐱 (talk) 21:49, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

• @Hog Farm, Z1720, and HumanxAnthro: What's the status of this review? Nikkimaria (talk) 01:20, 19 June 2021 (UTC)

HF

Okay, so looking at this this isn't in horrible shape, but there's still some stuff that needs worked on here

• It's unclear which source the "Hammer n.d." one is referring to, and it's flagging a no-target error.
• "Dugoid & n.d. (b)." - this ref seems to have some sort of sfn error here
• I'm unsure about the reliability of Off the Telly. The Quatermass Home Page is a primary source partially written by Kneale, so it's probably okay for usage here. If someone could give a look over the prose, that would be nice - I think this is close to keepable. Hog Farm _Talk 02:46, 19 June 2021 (UTC)

• Close without FARC - I've fixed the Hammer n.d. referencing error. The Off the Telly source is written by Graham Kibble-White, who seems to be a subject-matter expert. With the Quatermass Home Page source being primary, I think the sources are all okay enough. I can't figure out the Dugoid & n.d. reference error, but it'll probably be fine. Do you see any other things that need work here, @Z1720 and HumanxAnthro:? Hog Farm _Talk 21:45, 3 July 2021 (UTC)
  • I was working on other stuff in the past month. For this article, I just focused on cite formatting and adding more section headings. Any comments about prose or content to include can be given by someone more experienced in detecting HQ prose. 👨x🐱 (talk) 22:35, 3 July 2021 (UTC)
    • I skimmed it a couple weeks ago. I'll give it a read-through soon, but this is looking like it ought to be keepable. DrKay is generally pretty good with referencing errors, so maybe they can figure out the Dugoid n.d. (b) one I'm struggling with. Hog Farm _Talk 22:41, 3 July 2021 (UTC)
      • Done! DrKay (talk) 07:23, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

Z1720

During a copyedit, here are some questions and requests for clarification:

• The Times 2006 reference link seems to be broken and doesn't point to the article. (Although this might just be some weird thing that the website is doing for me?)
  • Archived. Hog Farm _Talk 05:42, 4 July 2021 (UTC)
• Birthdate is in the lede, but not the body. I can't find a source that verifies it, so I did not add it myself. Does anyone have a source for it?
  • The Times 2006 reference link I just archived includes it, so I have sourced it to there.
• "He was educated at St Ninian's High School, Douglas, and after leaving studied law, training to become an advocate at the Manx Bar." Do sources say where he studied law?
  • The two sources did not verify that he studied law, so this was removed. Z1720 (talk) 15:41, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
• "His son, Matthew Kneale, would later win the same award in 1988 for his novel Whore Banquets." I don't think this sentence is necessary in this article as it doesn't directly concern Kneale and feels like WP:TRIVIA. I suggest its removal.
  • Removed
• "the first adult television science-fiction production," The first in the world? The first in Britain?
  • I don't have access to this, and can't find it online, so we might have to leave as-is. Z1720 (talk) 15:41, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
• "held a large television audience gripped across its six weeks," I'm not sure this is WP:WIKIVOICE. I can't access the article to check it, so I can't determine whether it should be deleted or rephrased.
  • Gripped is the exact word the sources uses, so in-text attribution may be the best way to go. Hog Farm _Talk 06:08, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

This takes me to "1958–1966: Film screenplays and adaptations". I'll continue this later, but feel free to fix the above in the meantime. Z1720 (talk) 04:55, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

• I've addressed a handful of these, hopefully others more familiar with the subject matter can pitch in as well. Hog Farm _Talk 05:42, 4 July 2021 (UTC)
  • I addressed the remaining notes above. Z1720 (talk) 15:41, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

Gonna keep going,

• "Kneale commented in a 2003 interview that "I reckon I closed down at least two film companies." While interesting, I don't think this quote is encyclopedic as there is no evidence in this article that Kneale's involvement with these film companies caused thier demise. I think it should be removed.
  • Agree. Removed. Hog Farm _Talk 04:52, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
• "1963–1974: Return to BBC" has a citation needed tag that needs to be resolved.
  • Resolved. Reworded plot to match information verified in source. Z1720 (talk) 15:41, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
• "The island locations scenes for the production were filmed on the Isle of Man, Kneale's homeland." Did Kneale influence its filming in the Isle of Man? If not, delete per WP:TRIVIA
  • I removed it per WP:TRIVIA. Z1720 (talk) 15:41, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
• ""It lingered through the summer and slowly died as a project," he later commented." Not sure if this sentence is redundant. Do we need a quote from him here?
  • I'm not convinced it adds, much either. Removed. Hog Farm _Talk 04:52, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
• "The series was not a success, although Kneale later remained personally pleased with it." Not a commerical success?
  • Yes, changed. Hog Farm _Talk 01:42, 8 July 2021 (UTC)
• "and he and his wife spent some time living at the Sheraton Hotel" Is this Kneale, or Landis?
  • Changed and verified that it's Kneale. Z1720 (talk) 15:41, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
• "and cited as one of the programme's finest episodes" by who?
  • I've removed this bit. The source calls it "equally good" when comparing to other episodes, but doesn't really support the superlative here. Hog Farm _Talk 01:39, 8 July 2021 (UTC)
• I did a large copyedit of the Legacy section by merging short paragraphs, removing quotes that can be or were already described by the prose, and other grammar changes. Please review and let me know if the changes were unhelpful. I don't like the heavy use of quotes, but I think the article can justify keeping them.
• "Kerr became a successful children's writer, with the Mog series of books[3] and When Hitler Stole Pink Rabbit, which was based on her own experiences of fleeing Nazi Germany in her youth." Is this important information to have in a biography article about Kneale? I think this should be placed in Kerr's article instead.
  • I personally would think it's fine, since both members of the couple were accomplished writers and that Kneale worked with some of Kerr's stuff later. I think the current bit is about the maximum length that would be appropriate, but my personal opinion is that it's generally okay Hog Farm _Talk 04:52, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
• "Kneale was proud of his son's success as a writer. When his novel English Passengers won the Whitbread Book of the Year award in 2001, his father commented that: "Matthew's much better than I am. I just wrote screenplays."[91]" Is this necessary in this article? Seems unencyclopedic
  • Yeah, seems off-topic. Removed. Hog Farm _Talk 04:52, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
• Should information about Kneale's younger brother be placed at the beginning of the Family section, as it is assumed that Kneale met his brother before his wife? This will keep things in a somewhat chronological order.
  • Moved. Hog Farm _Talk 04:52, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
• "Between the lines" doesn't seem to be cited in the article.
  • Removed entirely. Not used, and no link to even attempt to use it. Hog Farm _Talk 04:56, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
• I put the sources in columns to save on whitespace and scrolling. If this is unhelpful, please revert.
• Kneale won the Bram Stoker Award for Lifetime Achievement, as noted in a template at the bottom of the page, but this is not mentioned in the article.
  • I can't find a secondary source to confirm this, so I removed its mention in the lede. Z1720 (talk) 15:41, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
• In external links, why is "Article by Mark Holcomb from The Believer, March/April 2010" included? Can it be used as a source?
  • It'll take somebody having access to the source. Link is currently broken, but used the Wayback Machine and determined that it's only a brief abstract of something longer, anyway. Hog Farm _Talk 04:55, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
• From the lede: "In 2000, he received the Lifetime Achievement Award from the Horror Writers Association." Is this the Bram Stoker Award? This isn't cited in the body.
  • Removed Z1720 (talk) 15:41, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

Those are my comments. Z1720 (talk) 01:34, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

• Move to FARC - I'm not gonna be able to address all of these. Tried posting in a few places to try to get some help, but it doesn't look like there's any interest in finishing this one off. I guess we'll have to let this one go, sadly. Hog Farm _Talk 01:15, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
• This article is close to a save, but I am too busy in July to work on this. @FAR coordinators: Can this be placed on hold until August, when I can devote more time to it? If another editor wants to work on it in the meantime, I encourage them to do so. Z1720 (talk) 00:21, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

• We can keep it open for that time. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:25, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

• Close as keep I resolved the remaining issues I mentioned above. I think this article is ready to keep and I am happy to resolve concerns from other reviews. Please ping if you review to ensure I've seen the comments. Thanks! Z1720 (talk) 15:47, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
• I see Z1720 has addressed the stuff I couldn't get to. Close without FARC. Hog Farm _Talk 15:48, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
• Closing note: This removal candidate has been kept, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please leave the {{featured article review}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:41, 31 July 2021 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.