Talk:Unity Dow/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Mujinga (talk · contribs) 10:11, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

Initial comments

Hi SusunW, I'll be happy to take this on for review for the Wikipedia:WikiProject Women in Green/Meetup/1. I am looking forward to giving it a detailed read. Cheers, Mujinga (talk) 10:11, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

Mujinga Happy to see you here. I always enjoy our collaborations to improve articles. Thanks for taking the time to review her. SusunW (talk) 12:45, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

Hiya that's nice to see your comments here and below. I'll carry on now, I'm back at the computer again for a bit. Let me know if you want more time to work on things but you look finished. Cheers, Mujinga (talk) 15:02, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

SusunW this is all goig well, I've replied to your responses and completed my sweep which includes infobox and lead. Back to you! Mujinga (talk) 16:08, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

Mujinga I have addressed everything, but some are still needing your input. Your turn... SusunW (talk) 17:23, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

SusunW it's been a pleasure working with you on this, thanks for the prompt and informative replies. and congrats on another good article! Mujinga (talk) 15:28, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

Mujinga I feel the same. Always enjoy our collaborations and I appreciate your attention to detail in helping improve them. Would you update that you reviewed it here so that the outcomes are correct? Thanks!SusunW (talk) 15:52, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

Oh yes thanks for the reminder. Good luck with your current projects! Mujinga (talk) 15:58, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

Good Article review progress box Criteria: 1a. prose () 1b. MoS 2a. ref layout 2b. cites WP:RS () 2c. no WP:OR () 2d. no WP:CV 3a. broadness 3b. focus () 4. neutral () 5. stable () 6a. free or tagged images () 6b. pics relevant () Note: this represents where the article stands relative to the Good Article criteria. Criteria marked are unassessed

Review

Pictures

• All three pix are appropriately licensed and useful for the article

Thanks to GRuban, as I know very little about photos after 1977 or for living people. SusunW (talk) 14:53, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

Yes, images can be tricky. Just a thought on the caption "Minister Dow and Macsuzy Mondon" - since Mondon was also a minister then maybe "Ministers Dow and Macsuzy Mondon" or "Minister Dow and Minister Macsuzy Mondon" Mujinga (talk) 15:04, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

Cool, also noted (Seychelles), as I think it might not be obvious.  Done SusunW (talk) 15:33, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

Infobox

• Second husband Karl J. Stahl is not I believe mentioned in the body.

No he isn't. You will note in the history that he was the only husband listed when I started. I removed it as could find nothing that indicated the two were married. (I searched all the Botswana papers, google, scholar, etc.) Ipigott finally found a German reference in which Stahl says she is his wife. But, obviously as it was difficult to find, it is not widely published, and because it is a BLP, I did not want to further elaborate and merely cited it in the infobox.

Hmmm this is an interesting one, since she isn't actually mentioned by name in the source. Since I've been picked up before on a GA nom for having things in the infobox not mentioned in the text and since it doesn't seem to be widely reported they are married I would suggest to remove it. But also happy to discuss further Mujinga (talk) 13:04, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

That's why I cited it. And yes, I tried to make sure everything mentioned in the info box was included in the text except that. Everything in the German piece confirms he is her husband, (she is a High Court judge (2009), member of the BaKgatla tribe, she works on AIDS prevention/awareness, is a women's rights activist, works against violence toward women and organ harvesting, and will be a visiting professor at Columbia in 2009.) This confirms that he did indeed take photos of her at Columbia in 2009. It's not contentious, so I'd rather leave that in, just without further comment. SusunW (talk) 14:17, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

Seems fine to me, you might have to return to it if you go on to nominate for FA and I woud def say that is worth doing since it's a high quality article on an inspiring woman Mujinga (talk) 15:27, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

• Is her residence still Mochudi, Kgatleng District?

Again, its a BLP. Honestly, I wouldn't put where she lives in an article, but it was there and she is a public figure, so... This from April 2021 says she still lives there. (Last sentence in the article), but it doesn't appear to be a high-quality source. This says she and her daughter are running the Dow Academy in their "home village", but doesn't say they live there. Not sure about whether I need to document it in the info box, or remove it. Your thoughts? SusunW (talk) 16:57, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

Yes I agree that it's prob not necessary to specify where a living person lives unless it is hugely relevant, so again I would suggest to remove it Mujinga (talk) 13:04, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

I guess as a politician, it might be relevant what district a person represents, but since she is a "special elected" MP, not sure if she does have a specific constituency. A compromise of a sort. I took it out of the lede and added a sentence under career that she and her daughter operate the Dow Academy there. SusunW (talk) 14:17, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

Oh nice, i was going to ping you but then got called away from keyboard and you sorted everything in the meantime! Mujinga (talk) 15:25, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

Lead

• I'll come back to this last

I always write it last. One sentence to show notability and then the rest after I am familiar with the entirety of who they are ;) SusunW (talk) 17:21, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

• I think "The works examine social practices and the way in which indulgence and silence about social wrongs lead to ideological confusion and exploitation" could be beefed up in the way the other sentences about her work have been

Not sure but does The works examine social practices and the way in which indulgence and silence about social wrongs lead to ideological confusion, because people do not question authority even if it appears to be corrupted, and exploitation through abuse, violence, and suppression of people's rights. work? SusunW (talk) 17:21, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

If you don't mind me saying so that still seems like there's too many words. I'd suggest something stream-lined like "The works examine exploitation through abuse, violence, and suppression of human rights" Mujinga (talk) 13:08, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

 Done SusunW (talk) 14:19, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

• very nice intro, seems to cover everything, at first I thought it might be a bit on the long side but the three paragraphs are all good

I particularly wanted to emphasize that she had been involved in all sides of the law of the country, i.e. as a plaintiff, counsel, judge, and legislator. I tried to make it concise but yes, it was hard. SusunW (talk) 17:21, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

Early life and education

• University of Botswana and Swaziland → University of Botswana and Swaziland

 Done SusunW (talk) 12:46, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

Middle career (1991–2009)

• discrimination against woman → discrimination against women

 Done

• "they held" - sugggest "the judges held" or "the court held"

 Done

• "In 2004, Dow served with Ghanaian Charlotte Abaka, former chair of the Committee on the Elimination of Discrimination against Women;[30] Feride Acar [tr], founding chair of the Middle East Technical University's gender and women's studies programme, in Ankara, Turkey;[30][31] Dorcas Coker-Appiah, Ghanaian lawyer and co-founder of the Gender Studies and Human Rights Documentation Centre in Accra;[30][32] and South African, Tiyanjana Maluwa, a law professor at Pennsylvania State University, as part of a United Nations mission to review the domestic application in Sierra Leone of international women's human rights.[30]" - suggest to move up the phrase so its:

"In 2004, Dow served as part of a United Nations mission to review the domestic application in Sierra Leone of international women's human rights with: Ghanaian Charlotte Abaka, former chair of the Committee on the Elimination of Discrimination against Women;[30] Feride Acar [tr], founding chair of the Middle East Technical University's gender and women's studies programme, in Ankara, Turkey;[30][31] Dorcas Coker-Appiah, Ghanaian lawyer and co-founder of the Gender Studies and Human Rights Documentation Centre in Accra;[30][32] and South African, Tiyanjana Maluwa, a law professor at Pennsylvania State University [30]"

 Done

• "2002 by the Basarwa people" → "2002 by the Basarwa people", first mention of Barwa after lead

Didn't link it here. First occurrence of Basarwa people is linked in "Early life" section. (She had a great grandmother who was Basarwa.)

ah ok, in early life it says "Mosarwa indigenous people". Umm so your call on whether or not to link again, i'm fine with either option Mujinga (talk) 15:07, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

• "native or aboriginal people" - could just say indigenous?

 Done

• "30%" per MOS:PERCENT this should be "30 percent" (US-Eng) or "30 per cent" (BR-Eng). It's actually a question which this article is, since its templated EngvarB, which says "This maintenance template adds articles to the hidden category Category:EngvarB to denote articles that have non-specific spelling that cannot be identified as American English or Canadian English spelling". Best to resolve it one way or the other, especially if you want to take this on to FA, which so far I am getting the impression it easily could be.

 Done maybe? Changed to 30 per cent. That template went on the file in 2017. (Honestly had never even noticed it, but as we all know, I am not technical, so messing with templates and the like are usually above my pay grade.) At any rate, the article was in poor shape (a hodgepodge of uncited statements and styles) when I stumbled across it. I rarely work on BLPs, but I thought her to be extremely notable and felt that once I knew about the state of the article, I couldn't leave it as it was. I write in AE, but had Ian review it and "Britishize" (or is that "Britishise"?) it. So, it should now be in BR-Eng. I removed the EngvarB template, but if something else needs to go on it, I have no clue.

great thanks for that reply, i bet the article is much improved from when you cam across it!! Yes I wasn't sure whether Br-Eng or US-Eng was appropriate, knowing you write in US and Botswana once was colonized by the British Empire. Since it's been Britishized(?) and I use Br-Eng hopefully i can pick up anythign else on that front and I'll try to add the right Br-Eng template, so  Done Mujinga (talk) 15:10, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

• " in the fall semester" - could chop that out, doesn't add much

 Done

Think I have cleared this section, unless you think something else needs to be done? SusunW (talk) 13:14, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

I've replied on a few points and agree we are pretty much done here Mujinga (talk) 15:14, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

Later career (2010–present)

• could add link to President of Kenya

 Done

• would say its good to link to Constitution of Kenya

 Done

• "decision was made to prepare the proper climate" - climate reads a biut jarringly, maybe its easier to say "prepare fully" or something. btw what an excellent case to take on

Her career is truly amazing. She has a doppelgänger in Belize whose career is eerily similar. I'm not sure. "Prepare fully" makes it sound like she needed to develop their case, but that wasn't the situation. When working in human rights law, it is rare to start with a case with huge national risk, because you could be setting back advances for generations. So for example, before the US national landmark case Brown v. Board of Education, legal strategists took regional cases like Mendez v. Westminster, Sipuel v. Board of Regents of the University of Oklahoma, and others to court to establish that the doctrine of separate but equal was discriminatory. Once they had established the background in regional cases, they took on a national case. In similar fashion, Dow and the Southern African Litigation Centre knew they needed a precedent with a smaller scope to "pave the way" so to speak and establish the idea that LGBT+ people were entitled to the same rights as the rest of the society. I'm not sure exactly how to word all of that, but I've changed it to read to establish precedent for LGBT rights in a case with less risk of harm. If that works then done.

That makes sense!  Done Mujinga (talk) 15:15, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

• "was in violation of the Constitution, Sections 3, 12 and 13, which grant the right to freedom of expression, freedom of association and freedom of assembly" feels a bit garbled, would suggest "was in violation of sections 3, 12 and 13 of the constitution, which grant the right to freedom of expression, freedom of association and freedom of assembly respectively"

 Done

• Infrastructre → Infrastructure

 Done

• "Dow said of the move that it would give her an opportunity as a backbencher to work more broadly on national issues, which as a minister, she could not do, as it required focus on issues of interest to a specific portfolio" - sources suggest it was a cabinet reshuffle which is worth mentioning and maybe you can quote qwhat she said directly eg from the sunday Standard: "As a minister you speak predominantly about your portfolio. But the backbench gives you the liberty to interrogate a wide variety of issues of national interest. The only limitation is my party position on a given subject"

 Done

I think I'm done with this section as well, but advise if there are other changes needed. SusunW (talk) 13:48, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

Writing

• amazing she also has time to write fiction!

I know, right?

• "AIDS crisis" - could link HIV/AIDS_in_Africa#Southern_Africa

 Done

• "Each of Dow's works examines social practices and the abuse of women. She tackles sexual abuse of children, the AIDS crisis, gender imbalances, and social practices which lead to an imbalance of power relationships" - i think these two sentence could be smashed into one and that would get rid of the repetition of "social practices"

Okay, I've changed it to read Each of Dow's works examines social practices which lead to an imbalance of power relationships and fuel violence against women, child sexual abuse, the AIDS crisis, and gender inequality. If that works  Done.

• "women, living" - i don't think comma is needed

 Done

• "secrets" is a bit vague

I am at a loss as to what would be a better word. The source is speaking about hiding/suppressing information, failing to disclose with the purposeful intent of misleading or confusing the villagers, silence even when one knows something is awry. Complicity might work? or conspiracy?, but the review also talks about the daughter of the perpetrator remaining silent though she suspects her father, which would be more like Omission (law). Basically back to the theme that silence allows bad things to happen. How do we get there? Got any suggestions?

Thanks, I word searched secrets in the source but it didn't help. For me "secrets" is vague because who is keeping secrets from who. Maybe institutional secrecy then? Or state silence on persecution of women?

I like institutional secrecy, but I think it's more than state silence, it's also societal silence. Perhaps country rife with police corruption, ritual murder, institutional secrecy, and societal silence. If that works then done. SusunW (talk) 15:48, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

Very nice, that's superclear now! Mujinga (talk) 15:50, 17 October 2021 (UTC)  Done

• "she will not be viewed" - in the sense of she refuses to be viewed? or the villagers believe she won't be? Mujinga (talk) 15:31, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

The latter, have adjusted to Bokaa, because the villagers believe she will not be viewed in the negative light the authorities hold them... If that is good then  Done

great thanks for clarification! Mujinga (talk) 15:31, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

• "Innocent, was" - i don't think comma is needed

 Done

• "Juggling Truths was" → Juggling Truths, was

 Done

• "Using the character, Monei," → Using the character of Monei,

 Done

• "killing the monitor lizard" → killing a monitor lizard

 Done

• "learn to whistle; and tales of a male monster who swallows children and a priest who sexually preys on young girls" suggest "learn to whistle. There are tales of a male monster who swallows children and a priest who sexually preys on young girls"

 Done

• "Devoid of quick fixes, Dow approaches her analysis of social complexity using a variety of social interventions" not keen on this sentence, eg the repetition of "social" and I'm not sure what "devoid of quick fixes" adds

Perhaps Dow approaches her analysis of social complexity using a variety of interventions, recognising that there are no simple solutions. It that works then done.

great yeah that works for me! Mujinga (talk) 15:31, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

• stopping here for now Mujinga (talk) 11:26, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

Honestly the writing section was the hardest section for me to write. Interpreting what people "get" from a work of art, be it an image or their words is weird to me. It either speaks to you or it doesn't, IMO. So I wasn't at all sure about it. I truly appreciate your attention to detail and help in improving it. I haven't completed all of the section as there are parts that I don't know how to fix and await your guidance. SusunW (talk) 14:51, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

It's reading pretty good so far! Continuing from "Dow's 2007 book The Heavens May Fall" ... Mujinga (talk) 15:32, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

• "In Dow's eyes, society is constantly changing; as a result, custom, gender, identity, language, and social construction and institutions are fluid" the two "and"s at the end read a bit strange to me

Removed first and, i.e. language, social construction, and institutions...

• " perceptions have transformed," their perceptions of things or how they are perceived?

I think both, but specifically, as the book is a fictionalized autobiography, probably the latter as the reviewer talks about it being at the time of the citizenship challenge, when her children were seen as "foreigners" rather than Batswana. I've expanded it to The book is dedicated to her three children, reiterating how perceptions about them have transformed, as they are African, but also share a more complex identity because their father was a US national. In the time the story unfolds they would have been seen by society as foreign. If that works then done.

great,  Done Mujinga (talk) 13:09, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

• teen-aged → teenaged

 Done

• their problem → its problem

 Done

Unless you disagree, I think were done with this section too. SusunW (talk) 16:01, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

Honours and awards

• Maybe better to start a new sentence for "and a nominee for the Harvard Law School's"

 Done SusunW (talk) 16:04, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

Academic

• all good

Literary

• all good

See also

• all good

Notes

• all good

References

• error at: Gaotlhobogwe, Monkagedi (4 June 2009). "BaKgatla Women Ready for Friday's Bojale Launch". Mmegi. Retrieved 7 October 2021. |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20211007182116/https://www.mmegi.bw/news/bakgatla-women-ready-for-fridays-bojale-launch/news |archive-date=7 October 2021 |location=Gaborone, Botswana |url-status=live}}

Thanks for catching that. Weird error, as the problem was not with the link but the date. Anyway it's fixed.  Done SusunW (talk) 16:08, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

External links

• Writer site (https://cca.ukzn.ac.za/images/tow/TOW2004/dow.htm) gives "The page can’t be found" for me

Another area I rarely look at. My bad. I assumed it was a link to her personal webpage, but it isn't. I found a link in archive.org, but it is merely a review of some of her writing by an unnamed web page, so I have deleted it, as we have academic reviews documented. SusunW (talk) 16:14, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

cool, makes sense Mujinga (talk) 12:47, 18 October 2021 (UTC)