Talk:Harlan Ellison/Archive 5: Difference between revisions

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This is an archive of past discussions about Harlan Ellison. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

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Date of Death

Most sources say he died on June 28, 2018. The L.A. Times mistakenly say he died the night before. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.38.189.88 (talk) 17:17, 29 June 2018 (UTC)

His own web page says 28 Jun, as does the original Twitter notice from Christine Valada. Moscow Mule (talk) 18:50, 29 June 2018 (UTC)

It might be relevant that un-verified Twitter accounts are never WP:RS, so information from that source would be inadmissible; perhaps "Vulture" is a RS and, in turn, did better fact-checking on the account owner and assertions, but the fact remains that we can't keep restoring a bare link to the Tweet in the article. 2600:8800:1880:91E:5604:A6FF:FE38:4B26 (talk) 03:23, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

Disputed statement

The following statement appears regarding City on the Edge of Forever: "Ellison also novelized the story at that time, for the Star Trek Fotonovel series." This is incorrect; it's possible the person who added it is not familiar with the (somewhat hard to find) book series which consisted of images from the episode with captions taken verbatim from the episode. It was not a novelization in any way shape or form, and was in fact simply a reproduction of the TV episode, which Ellison took issue with. I recommend this statement be deleted unless there's a source that says Ellison was involved in the actual production of the Fotonovel which, given his objections to the changes to his script and the fact his original script had only just been published, makes no sense. 136.159.160.8 (talk) 22:11, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

I agree that it's dubious and should be removed. -Jason A. Quest (talk) 01:30, 14 July 2018 (UTC)

I edited it to clarify it was in 1977 and was the aired version of the script and was not done by Ellison, though a brief interview with him is included in the Fotonovel. Sir Rhosis (talk) 22:23, 15 July 2018 (UTC)

It's still misleading: it's an abridged photo comic, not a novelization (which usually involves expanding on a photoplay). -Jason A. Quest (talk) 00:55, 16 July 2018 (UTC)

No mention of his sister?

His documentary says he stopped speaking to his sister after his mother's funeral, and his IMDb page mentions an older sister named Beverly. His FindAGrave page shows the graves of his parents and sister along with his own. She died in 2010. How is she not at all mentioned in this article, even as a quick mention in his early life? https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/190968329/beverly-c-rabnick

I've since added that information, but I'm not crazy about how I phrased it if anyone can do a better job.

An Erroneous Ellison Award

I removed the Saturn Award accredited to him, which had Citation #93 and this link:

http://harlanellison.com/awards.htm

To quote Harlan Ellison's Awards at Ellison Webderland (maintained by Rick Wyatt)

"Saturn Award (of the Academy of Science Fiction, Fantasy, and Horror Films) 1976 Superior Achievement and Merit in Fantasy Film: A Boy and His Dog (awarded despite Ellison's work on ABAHD being uncredited)"

This is contradicted by Wikipedia's entry for 3rd Saturn Awards, which states that neither Ellison nor anyone was awarded a Saturn award in 1976, though Ellison did receive a Golden Scroll award. The Academy had only the Golden Scroll Award until it was renamed the Saturn Award in 1978. A Boy and His Dog was nominated for Best Science Fiction Film, but not for Best Fantasy Film. The fantasy film to win the Golden Scroll in 1976 was Doc Savage: Man of Bronze.

I have emailed webmaster Rick Wyatt to give him the correction.RickRiffel2020 (talk) 21:48, 3 September 2019 (UTC)RickRiffel2020 3 September 2019

Popularity?

So, how many books did he sell? Ellison has always been a writer more popular among the media than the sci-fi readers, to me. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:346:580:1FD0:502B:6FE2:67D6:75FC (talk) 16:02, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

Hugos.

Right …

How are we defining ‘Hugo Awards,’ here?

At various point, the article tells us Ellison won eight Hugos.

Whereas the list of Hugos he won … run’s to eleven items …

What’s happening … ?

Cuddy2977 (talk) 17:54, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

Marriage to Susan Allen Toth: incorrect

Susan Allen Toth was never married to Harlan Ellison. She married the architect James Stageberg in 1985 and they were married till his death. Her last b ookw as about caring for him in his final years.

https://collection.mndigital.org/catalog/p16022coll38:225?pn=false#/kaltura_video

https://www.startribune.com/obituaries/detail/12637084/

https://www.amazon.com/No-Saints-around-Here-Caregivers/dp/0816692866 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.125.196.140 (talk) 03:11, 26 March 2021 (UTC)

A cursory look at the material suggests that Susan Toth and Susan Allen Toth are two separate people. 75.137.172.90 (talk) 15:31, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

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+== Date of Death ==
-== A character representing 'Harlan' in popular fiction ==
+Most sources say he died on June 28, 2018. The L.A. Times mistakenly
-In the recent SF movie 'War of the Worlds' there's a character, who speaks as if he may be a writer of some kind, who's named 'Harlan'. I think there's a strong possibility this character is based at least in part on Harlan Ellison.
+say he died the night before.  <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/207.38.189.88|207.38.189.88]] ([[User talk:207.38.189.88#top|talk]]) 17:17, 29 June 2018 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
+:His [http://harlanellison.com/ own web page] says 28 Jun, as does the [http://www.vulture.com/2018/06/writer-harlan-ellison-dead-at-84.html original Twitter notice from Christine Valada]. [[User:Moscow Mule|Moscow Mule]] ([[User talk:Moscow Mule|talk]]) 18:50, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
+::It might be relevant that un-verified Twitter accounts are never [[WP:RS]], so information from that source would be inadmissible; perhaps "Vulture" is a RS and, in turn, did better fact-checking on the account owner and assertions, but the fact remains that we can't keep restoring a bare link to the Tweet in the article. [[Special:Contributions/2600:8800:1880:91E:5604:A6FF:FE38:4B26|2600:8800:1880:91E:5604:A6FF:FE38:4B26]] ([[User talk:2600:8800:1880:91E:5604:A6FF:FE38:4B26|talk]]) 03:23, 5 July 2018 (UTC)
+==Disputed statement==
-[[User:Magicsinglez|Magicsinglez]] ([[User talk:Magicsinglez|talk]]) 14:55, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
+The following statement appears regarding City on the Edge of Forever: "Ellison also novelized the story at that time, for the Star Trek Fotonovel series." This is incorrect; it's possible the person who added it is not familiar with the (somewhat hard to find) book series which consisted of images from the episode with captions taken verbatim from the episode. It was not a novelization in any way shape or form, and was in fact simply a reproduction of the TV episode, which Ellison took issue with. I recommend this statement be deleted unless there's a source that says Ellison was involved in the actual production of the Fotonovel which, given his objections to the changes to his script and the fact his original script had only just been published, makes no sense. [[Special:Contributions/136.159.160.8|136.159.160.8]] ([[User talk:136.159.160.8|talk]]) 22:11, 13 July 2018 (UTC)
+:I agree that it's dubious and should be removed. -[[User:JasonAQuest|Jason A. Quest]] ([[User talk:JasonAQuest|talk]]) 01:30, 14 July 2018 (UTC)
+::I edited it to clarify it was in 1977 and was the aired version of the script and was not done by Ellison, though a brief interview with him is included in the Fotonovel.  [[User:Sir Rhosis|Sir Rhosis]] ([[User talk:Sir Rhosis|talk]]) 22:23, 15 July 2018 (UTC)
+:::It's still misleading: it's an abridged [[photo comic]], not a [[novelization]] (which usually involves expanding on a photoplay). -[[User:JasonAQuest|Jason A. Quest]] ([[User talk:JasonAQuest|talk]]) 00:55, 16 July 2018 (UTC)
+==No mention of his sister?==
+His documentary says he stopped speaking to his sister after his mother's funeral, and his IMDb page mentions an older sister named Beverly. His FindAGrave page shows the graves of his parents and sister along with his own. She died in 2010.  How is she not at all mentioned in this article, even as a quick mention in his early life?
+https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/190968329/beverly-c-rabnick
+I've since added that information, but I'm not crazy about how I phrased it if anyone can do a better job.
-In the Scooby Doo Mystery Incorporated season one episode 12 cartoon, they do send ups of HP Lovecraft, Robert E Howard and Harlan Ellison.  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/184.76.68.56|184.76.68.56]] ([[User talk:184.76.68.56|talk]]) 07:41, 21 October 2010 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
-— More than a send-up to Ellison, he plays himself in the episode. [[Special:Contributions/68.97.129.237|68.97.129.237]] ([[User talk:68.97.129.237|talk]]) 01:09, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
+== An Erroneous Ellison Award ==
-There is also a character named "Harlan" in the film "Miracle Mile" (1988) who is in the room during a conversation which refers to Ellison's oft-cited favorite barbecue restaurant, Dr. Hogly Wogly's Tyler Texas Barbecue in Panarama City, CA. This is confirmed by the writer/director of the movie as a reference to Ellison but is probably not significant enough to cite in the article[[Special:Contributions/207.221.248.253|207.221.248.253]] ([[User talk:207.221.248.253|talk]]) 14:51, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
+I removed the Saturn Award accredited to him, which had Citation #93 and this link:
-I clearly recall owning as a child an early-1970s-vintage issue of a ''[[Justice League of America]]'' comic which had a story entitled something along the lines of "The Dangerous Dreams of Harle Ellis".  The title character was very clearly drawn as Ellison (and an editorial note admitted as much), and of course it referenced the ''Dangerous Visions'' books.  However, I have been unable to find any confirmation that it actually existed -- but as at that age I had no idea who Ellison was or what the ''Dangerous Visions'' books were, I'm quite certain I'm remembering a genuine book.  Does this ring a bell for anyone else? [[Special:Contributions/50.243.35.65|50.243.35.65]] ([[User talk:50.243.35.65|talk]]) 15:46, 14 November 2017 (UTC)
+http://harlanellison.com/awards.htm
-== Bloody Sunday recount is inaccurate ==
+To quote Harlan Ellison's Awards at Ellison Webderland (maintained by Rick Wyatt)
-The text of the article claims, "[Ellison] participated in the 1965 Bloody Sunday March from Selma to Montgomery, Alabama, led by Martin Luther King, Jr."
-However:
+"Saturn Award (of the Academy of Science Fiction, Fantasy, and Horror Films)
-# Martin Luther King did not lead the Bloody Sunday March. According to [[ Selma_to_Montgomery_marches#.22Bloody_Sunday.22_events | Bloody Sunday events ]] the march was led by John Lewis, the Reverend Hosea Williams, Bob Mants, and Albert Turner.
+Superior Achievement and Merit in Fantasy Film: A Boy and His Dog
-# Martin Luther King did not even attend the Bloody Sunday March (see [[ Martin_Luther_King_Jr.#Selma_voting_rights_movement_and_.22Bloody_Sunday.22.2C_1965 | Martin Luther King -- Bloody Sunday ]]).
+(awarded despite Ellison's work on ABAHD being uncredited)"
-# [https://web.archive.org/web/20050331061227/http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/features/20050320-9999-1a20harlan.html The citation provided] only says "Among his exploits: ... marching to Selma with Martin Luther King"
+This is contradicted by Wikipedia's entry for 3rd Saturn Awards, which states that neither Ellison nor anyone was awarded a Saturn award in 1976, though Ellison did receive a Golden Scroll award. The Academy had only the Golden Scroll Award until it was renamed the Saturn Award in 1978. A Boy and His Dog was nominated for Best Science Fiction Film, but not for Best Fantasy Film. The fantasy film to win the Golden Scroll in 1976 was Doc Savage: Man of Bronze.
-Most likely, Mr Ellison ''did'' participate in a Selma-to-Montgomery march with Dr King. One can speculate that it was the third march, which was the largest, and took place two or three weeks ''after'' Bloody Sunday.
-Without a more specific citation, I think the wording should remain general. [[User:Cryptarch|Cryptarch]] ([[User talk:Cryptarch|talk]]) 10:17, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
+I have emailed webmaster Rick Wyatt to give him the correction.[[User:RickRiffel2020|RickRiffel2020]] ([[User talk:RickRiffel2020|talk]]) 21:48, 3 September 2019 (UTC)RickRiffel2020 3 September 2019
-== External links modified ==
+== Popularity? ==
-Hello fellow Wikipedians,
+So, how many books did he sell? Ellison has always been a writer more popular among the media than the sci-fi readers, to me.  <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/2601:346:580:1FD0:502B:6FE2:67D6:75FC|2601:346:580:1FD0:502B:6FE2:67D6:75FC]] ([[User talk:2601:346:580:1FD0:502B:6FE2:67D6:75FC#top|talk]]) 16:02, 31 May 2020 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
-I have just modified 8 external links on [[Harlan Ellison]]. Please take a moment to review [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?diff=prev&oldid=807812300 my edit]. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit [[User:Cyberpower678/FaQs#InternetArchiveBot|this simple FaQ]] for additional information. I made the following changes:
-*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20131003135818/http://librarycatalog.wgfoundation.org/title/titleAwards.ashx?id=2484 to http://librarycatalog.wgfoundation.org/title/titleAwards.ashx?id=2484
-*Added archive https://www.webcitation.org/5yVVAZbCS?url=http://www.thehugoawards.org/hugo-history/1968-hugo-awards/ to http://www.thehugoawards.org/hugo-history/1968-hugo-awards/
-*Added archive https://archive.is/20120714062343/http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2007/06/29/it-is-finished/ to http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2007/06/29/it-is-finished/
-*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110430205354/http://www.tv.com/harlan-ellison/person/30560/trivia.html to http://www.tv.com/harlan-ellison/person/30560/trivia.html
-*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20130509115710/http://www.horror.org/laawd.htm to http://www.horror.org/laawd.htm
-*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110701114233/http://www.sfwa.org/nebula-awards/nebula-weekend/events-program/grandmaster/ to http://www.sfwa.org/nebula-awards/nebula-weekend/events-program/grandmaster/
-*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.empmuseum.org/exhibitions/index.asp?categoryID=203
-*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20060321091809/http://www.worldtalkradio.com/archive.asp?aid=4239 to http://www.worldtalkradio.com/archive.asp?aid=4239
+== Hugos. ==
-When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
+Right …
-{{sourcecheck|checked=false|needhelp=}}
+How are we defining ‘Hugo Awards,’ here?
-Cheers.—[[User:InternetArchiveBot|'''<span style="color:darkgrey;font-family:monospace">InternetArchiveBot</span>''']] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">([[User talk:InternetArchiveBot|Report bug]])</span> 07:14, 30 October 2017 (UTC)
+At various point, the article tells us Ellison won eight Hugos.
-== External links modified ==
+Whereas the list of Hugos he won … run’s to eleven items …
-Hello fellow Wikipedians,
+What’s happening … ?
-I have just modified 5 external links on [[Harlan Ellison]]. Please take a moment to review [[special:diff/820424519|my edit]]. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit [[User:Cyberpower678/FaQs#InternetArchiveBot|this simple FaQ]] for additional information. I made the following changes:
-*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070415065440/http://hubcap.clemson.edu/~sparks/ellison.html to http://hubcap.clemson.edu/~sparks/ellison.html
-*Added archive https://archive.is/20120715222130/http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2007/08/16/you-boys-play-nice-now/ to http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2007/08/16/you-boys-play-nice-now/
-*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120822223641/http://www.islets.net/collections/edgeworks1.html to http://www.islets.net/collections/edgeworks1.html
-*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20121016202223/http://locusmag.com/SFAwards/Db/NomLit44.html to http://www.locusmag.com/SFAwards/Db/NomLit44.html
-*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080922082643/http://www.nextbook.org/cultural/feature.html?id=896 to http://www.nextbook.org/cultural/feature.html?id=896
+[[User:Cuddy2977|Cuddy2977]] ([[User talk:Cuddy2977|talk]]) 17:54, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
-When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
+== Marriage to Susan Allen Toth: incorrect ==
-{{sourcecheck|checked=false|needhelp=}}
+Susan Allen Toth was never married to Harlan Ellison. She married the architect James Stageberg in 1985 and they were married till his death. Her last b ookw as about caring for him in his final years.
-Cheers.—[[User:InternetArchiveBot|'''<span style="color:darkgrey;font-family:monospace">InternetArchiveBot</span>''']] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">([[User talk:InternetArchiveBot|Report bug]])</span> 17:53, 14 January 2018 (UTC)
+https://collection.mndigital.org/catalog/p16022coll38:225?pn=false#/kaltura_video
-== External links modified (January 2018) ==
+https://www.startribune.com/obituaries/detail/12637084/
-Hello fellow Wikipedians,
+https://www.amazon.com/No-Saints-around-Here-Caregivers/dp/0816692866  <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/97.125.196.140|97.125.196.140]] ([[User talk:97.125.196.140#top|talk]]) 03:11, 26 March 2021 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
-I have just modified 2 external links on [[Harlan Ellison]]. Please take a moment to review [[special:diff/821619277|my edit]]. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit [[User:Cyberpower678/FaQs#InternetArchiveBot|this simple FaQ]] for additional information. I made the following changes:
-*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120903050655/http://www.philsp.com/homeville/fmi/s968.htm to http://www.philsp.com/homeville/fmi/s968.htm
-*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20121016201832/http://locusmag.com/SFAwards/Db/NomDrama5.html to http://www.locusmag.com/SFAwards/Db/NomDrama5.html
+A cursory look at the material suggests that Susan Toth and Susan Allen Toth are two separate people.
-When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
+[[Special:Contributions/75.137.172.90|75.137.172.90]] ([[User talk:75.137.172.90|talk]]) 15:31, 28 May 2021 (UTC)
-{{sourcecheck|checked=false|needhelp=}}
-Cheers.—[[User:InternetArchiveBot|'''<span style="color:darkgrey;font-family:monospace">InternetArchiveBot</span>''']] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">([[User talk:InternetArchiveBot|Report bug]])</span> 16:24, 21 January 2018 (UTC)
-== Anecdotal stuff to be verified ==
-I met Harlan in 1980 when he and his girlfriend flew into Salt Lake City to support the state NOW through a whirlwind series of TV and film festival appearances. The man had an insane amount of energy - his girlfriend said she couldn't stand to be around him on a daily basis as he'd wear her to a frazzle. Apparently he had several personal assistants back in Sherman Oaks who rotated so they could keep up with him. We also had to work in shifts to get him around town to all his appearances.
-He mentioned that he had been in the Army Airborne back in the 1950's when drafted.
-[[User:Mccainre|Mccainre]] ([[User talk:Mccainre|talk]]) 04:47, 29 March 2018 (UTC)
-== ITN Candidate ==
-{{ITN note|<!-- Nomination's heading on Wikipedia:In the news/Candidates page -->|date=28 June 2018}} [[User:Challenger l|Challenger l]] ([[User talk:Challenger l|talk]]) 20:00, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
-== The 2nd wife is not mentioned in the article. ==
-The 2nd wife is not mentioned in the article. Someone should correct this. [[Special:Contributions/2604:2000:F64D:FC00:3025:3261:A67A:791C|2604:2000:F64D:FC00:3025:3261:A67A:791C]] ([[User talk:2604:2000:F64D:FC00:3025:3261:A67A:791C|talk]]) 01:09, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
-== Troll tagfest ==
-A tag on every &sect;, with a redundant one on the whole article? [[Special:Contributions/98.4.124.117|98.4.124.117]] ([[User talk:98.4.124.117|talk]]) 12:49, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
-== Useless tags ==
-You know, there are two kinds of people in the world: productive people and unproductive people. All those tags requesting that somebody fix the article are completely useless. I'd like to suggest the people putting them in do a little research and improve the article themselves. Same for the comments here. Take charge, people. Don't wait for somebody else to do it. [[User:Pkeets|Pkeets]] ([[User talk:Pkeets|talk]]) 13:02, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
-:Agreed. Tagging is a little like spotting a hitchhiker on the highway, stopping to hang a sign around his neck saying "HEY! PICK THIS PERSON UP!" and then driving off.
-:Since I don't see anything on the talk page specific to the sectional tags, I don't see why they can't be removed with the same abruptness with which they were placed. [[User:Antandrus|Antandrus]] [[User_talk:Antandrus|(talk)]] 13:55, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
-::People who don't know anything about him are coming here to learn more about him. Whining that they aren't picking up the fumbled ball and researching him themselves isn't helping. Frankly, this article really kinda sucked a couple days ago. The lede basically just said that he wrote a lot of SF and cited two books he edited, and the "personal life" section literally started with his ''third'' wife! I've worked on both of those problems. There's a lot more to improve. Maybe stop commenting on the commenting and get to work yourself? -[[User:JasonAQuest|Jason A. Quest]] ([[User talk:JasonAQuest|talk]]) 16:11, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
-==Criticism==
-Not criticism OF him, criticism BY him. i believe his best work was his criticism, but its given short shrift in this article. im having trouble finding solid references describing his criticism and how good it was. if anyone can find a source for this, i would appreciate it. his acerbic wit in his nonfiction work pretty much saved his ass, considering how problematic he was.[[User:Mercurywoodrose|Mercurywoodrose]] ([[User talk:Mercurywoodrose|talk]]) 15:51, 29 June 2018 (UTC)(Mercurywoodrose)