Talk:Harlan Ellison/Archive 5: Difference between revisions

Content deleted Content added

Inline

Latest revision as of 07:55, 25 October 2021

This is an archive of past discussions about Harlan Ellison. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

←

Date of Death

Most sources say he died on June 28, 2018. The L.A. Times mistakenly say he died the night before. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.38.189.88 (talk) 17:17, 29 June 2018 (UTC)

His own web page says 28 Jun, as does the original Twitter notice from Christine Valada. Moscow Mule (talk) 18:50, 29 June 2018 (UTC)

It might be relevant that un-verified Twitter accounts are never WP:RS, so information from that source would be inadmissible; perhaps "Vulture" is a RS and, in turn, did better fact-checking on the account owner and assertions, but the fact remains that we can't keep restoring a bare link to the Tweet in the article. 2600:8800:1880:91E:5604:A6FF:FE38:4B26 (talk) 03:23, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

Disputed statement

The following statement appears regarding City on the Edge of Forever: "Ellison also novelized the story at that time, for the Star Trek Fotonovel series." This is incorrect; it's possible the person who added it is not familiar with the (somewhat hard to find) book series which consisted of images from the episode with captions taken verbatim from the episode. It was not a novelization in any way shape or form, and was in fact simply a reproduction of the TV episode, which Ellison took issue with. I recommend this statement be deleted unless there's a source that says Ellison was involved in the actual production of the Fotonovel which, given his objections to the changes to his script and the fact his original script had only just been published, makes no sense. 136.159.160.8 (talk) 22:11, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

I agree that it's dubious and should be removed. -Jason A. Quest (talk) 01:30, 14 July 2018 (UTC)

I edited it to clarify it was in 1977 and was the aired version of the script and was not done by Ellison, though a brief interview with him is included in the Fotonovel. Sir Rhosis (talk) 22:23, 15 July 2018 (UTC)

It's still misleading: it's an abridged photo comic, not a novelization (which usually involves expanding on a photoplay). -Jason A. Quest (talk) 00:55, 16 July 2018 (UTC)

No mention of his sister?

His documentary says he stopped speaking to his sister after his mother's funeral, and his IMDb page mentions an older sister named Beverly. His FindAGrave page shows the graves of his parents and sister along with his own. She died in 2010. How is she not at all mentioned in this article, even as a quick mention in his early life? https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/190968329/beverly-c-rabnick

I've since added that information, but I'm not crazy about how I phrased it if anyone can do a better job.

An Erroneous Ellison Award

I removed the Saturn Award accredited to him, which had Citation #93 and this link:

http://harlanellison.com/awards.htm

To quote Harlan Ellison's Awards at Ellison Webderland (maintained by Rick Wyatt)

"Saturn Award (of the Academy of Science Fiction, Fantasy, and Horror Films) 1976 Superior Achievement and Merit in Fantasy Film: A Boy and His Dog (awarded despite Ellison's work on ABAHD being uncredited)"

This is contradicted by Wikipedia's entry for 3rd Saturn Awards, which states that neither Ellison nor anyone was awarded a Saturn award in 1976, though Ellison did receive a Golden Scroll award. The Academy had only the Golden Scroll Award until it was renamed the Saturn Award in 1978. A Boy and His Dog was nominated for Best Science Fiction Film, but not for Best Fantasy Film. The fantasy film to win the Golden Scroll in 1976 was Doc Savage: Man of Bronze.

I have emailed webmaster Rick Wyatt to give him the correction.RickRiffel2020 (talk) 21:48, 3 September 2019 (UTC)RickRiffel2020 3 September 2019

Popularity?

So, how many books did he sell? Ellison has always been a writer more popular among the media than the sci-fi readers, to me. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:346:580:1FD0:502B:6FE2:67D6:75FC (talk) 16:02, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

Hugos.

Right …

How are we defining ‘Hugo Awards,’ here?

At various point, the article tells us Ellison won eight Hugos.

Whereas the list of Hugos he won … run’s to eleven items …

What’s happening … ?

Cuddy2977 (talk) 17:54, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

Marriage to Susan Allen Toth: incorrect

Susan Allen Toth was never married to Harlan Ellison. She married the architect James Stageberg in 1985 and they were married till his death. Her last b ookw as about caring for him in his final years.

https://collection.mndigital.org/catalog/p16022coll38:225?pn=false#/kaltura_video

https://www.startribune.com/obituaries/detail/12637084/

https://www.amazon.com/No-Saints-around-Here-Caregivers/dp/0816692866 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.125.196.140 (talk) 03:11, 26 March 2021 (UTC)

A cursory look at the material suggests that Susan Toth and Susan Allen Toth are two separate people. 75.137.172.90 (talk) 15:31, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

@@ Line 1: / Line 1: @@
+{{Automatic archive navigator}}
-{{Skip to talk}}
-{{Talk header}}
-{{ITN talk|1 July|2018|oldid=848379459}}
-{{Auto archiving notice|bot=Lowercase sigmabot III|age=180|dounreplied=yes}}
-{{User:MiszaBot/config
-| algo=old(180d)
-| archive=Talk:Harlan Ellison/Archive %(counter)d
-| counter=4
-| maxarchivesize=20T
-| archiveheader={{Automatic archive navigator}}
-| minthreadsleft=6
-| minthreadstoarchive=3
-}}
-{{WikiProjectBannerShell|blp=no|1=
-{{WikiProject Biography|needs-photo=yes|living=no|class=C|listas=Ellison, Harlan|a&e-priority=High|a&e-work-group=yes}}
-{{Comicsproj|class=C|importance=bottom|creators=yes|US=yes}}
-{{WikiProject United States|class=C|importance=mid|OH=yes|OH-importance=mid|listas=Ellison, Harlan}}
-{{WikiProject California|class=C|importance=low|la=yes|la-importance=bottom}}
-{{WikiProject Science Fiction|class=C|importance=mid}}
-{{WikiProject Screenwriters}}
-{{WikiProject Cleveland|class=C|importance=low}}
-}}
-{{Vital article|level=5|topic=People|subpage=Writers|class=C}}
-{{Annual readership}}
-== External links modified ==
+== Date of Death ==
+Most sources say he died on June 28, 2018. The L.A. Times mistakenly
-Hello fellow Wikipedians,
+say he died the night before.  <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/207.38.189.88|207.38.189.88]] ([[User talk:207.38.189.88#top|talk]]) 17:17, 29 June 2018 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
+:His [http://harlanellison.com/ own web page] says 28 Jun, as does the [http://www.vulture.com/2018/06/writer-harlan-ellison-dead-at-84.html original Twitter notice from Christine Valada]. [[User:Moscow Mule|Moscow Mule]] ([[User talk:Moscow Mule|talk]]) 18:50, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
+::It might be relevant that un-verified Twitter accounts are never [[WP:RS]], so information from that source would be inadmissible; perhaps "Vulture" is a RS and, in turn, did better fact-checking on the account owner and assertions, but the fact remains that we can't keep restoring a bare link to the Tweet in the article. [[Special:Contributions/2600:8800:1880:91E:5604:A6FF:FE38:4B26|2600:8800:1880:91E:5604:A6FF:FE38:4B26]] ([[User talk:2600:8800:1880:91E:5604:A6FF:FE38:4B26|talk]]) 03:23, 5 July 2018 (UTC)
+==Disputed statement==
-I have just modified 5 external links on [[Harlan Ellison]]. Please take a moment to review [[special:diff/820424519|my edit]]. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit [[User:Cyberpower678/FaQs#InternetArchiveBot|this simple FaQ]] for additional information. I made the following changes:
+The following statement appears regarding City on the Edge of Forever: "Ellison also novelized the story at that time, for the Star Trek Fotonovel series." This is incorrect; it's possible the person who added it is not familiar with the (somewhat hard to find) book series which consisted of images from the episode with captions taken verbatim from the episode. It was not a novelization in any way shape or form, and was in fact simply a reproduction of the TV episode, which Ellison took issue with. I recommend this statement be deleted unless there's a source that says Ellison was involved in the actual production of the Fotonovel which, given his objections to the changes to his script and the fact his original script had only just been published, makes no sense. [[Special:Contributions/136.159.160.8|136.159.160.8]] ([[User talk:136.159.160.8|talk]]) 22:11, 13 July 2018 (UTC)
-*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070415065440/http://hubcap.clemson.edu/~sparks/ellison.html to http://hubcap.clemson.edu/~sparks/ellison.html
+:I agree that it's dubious and should be removed. -[[User:JasonAQuest|Jason A. Quest]] ([[User talk:JasonAQuest|talk]]) 01:30, 14 July 2018 (UTC)
-*Added archive https://archive.is/20120715222130/http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2007/08/16/you-boys-play-nice-now/ to http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2007/08/16/you-boys-play-nice-now/
+::I edited it to clarify it was in 1977 and was the aired version of the script and was not done by Ellison, though a brief interview with him is included in the Fotonovel.  [[User:Sir Rhosis|Sir Rhosis]] ([[User talk:Sir Rhosis|talk]]) 22:23, 15 July 2018 (UTC)
-*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120822223641/http://www.islets.net/collections/edgeworks1.html to http://www.islets.net/collections/edgeworks1.html
+:::It's still misleading: it's an abridged [[photo comic]], not a [[novelization]] (which usually involves expanding on a photoplay). -[[User:JasonAQuest|Jason A. Quest]] ([[User talk:JasonAQuest|talk]]) 00:55, 16 July 2018 (UTC)
-*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20121016202223/http://locusmag.com/SFAwards/Db/NomLit44.html to http://www.locusmag.com/SFAwards/Db/NomLit44.html
-*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080922082643/http://www.nextbook.org/cultural/feature.html?id=896 to http://www.nextbook.org/cultural/feature.html?id=896
+==No mention of his sister?==
-When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
+His documentary says he stopped speaking to his sister after his mother's funeral, and his IMDb page mentions an older sister named Beverly. His FindAGrave page shows the graves of his parents and sister along with his own. She died in 2010.  How is she not at all mentioned in this article, even as a quick mention in his early life?
+https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/190968329/beverly-c-rabnick
+I've since added that information, but I'm not crazy about how I phrased it if anyone can do a better job.
-{{sourcecheck|checked=false|needhelp=}}
+== An Erroneous Ellison Award ==
-Cheers.—[[User:InternetArchiveBot|'''<span style="color:darkgrey;font-family:monospace">InternetArchiveBot</span>''']] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">([[User talk:InternetArchiveBot|Report bug]])</span> 17:53, 14 January 2018 (UTC)
+I removed the Saturn Award accredited to him, which had Citation #93 and this link:
-== External links modified (January 2018) ==
+http://harlanellison.com/awards.htm
-Hello fellow Wikipedians,
+To quote Harlan Ellison's Awards at Ellison Webderland (maintained by Rick Wyatt)
-I have just modified 2 external links on [[Harlan Ellison]]. Please take a moment to review [[special:diff/821619277|my edit]]. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit [[User:Cyberpower678/FaQs#InternetArchiveBot|this simple FaQ]] for additional information. I made the following changes:
-*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120903050655/http://www.philsp.com/homeville/fmi/s968.htm to http://www.philsp.com/homeville/fmi/s968.htm
-*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20121016201832/http://locusmag.com/SFAwards/Db/NomDrama5.html to http://www.locusmag.com/SFAwards/Db/NomDrama5.html
+"Saturn Award (of the Academy of Science Fiction, Fantasy, and Horror Films)
-When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
+Superior Achievement and Merit in Fantasy Film: A Boy and His Dog
+(awarded despite Ellison's work on ABAHD being uncredited)"
+This is contradicted by Wikipedia's entry for 3rd Saturn Awards, which states that neither Ellison nor anyone was awarded a Saturn award in 1976, though Ellison did receive a Golden Scroll award. The Academy had only the Golden Scroll Award until it was renamed the Saturn Award in 1978. A Boy and His Dog was nominated for Best Science Fiction Film, but not for Best Fantasy Film. The fantasy film to win the Golden Scroll in 1976 was Doc Savage: Man of Bronze.
-{{sourcecheck|checked=false|needhelp=}}
+I have emailed webmaster Rick Wyatt to give him the correction.[[User:RickRiffel2020|RickRiffel2020]] ([[User talk:RickRiffel2020|talk]]) 21:48, 3 September 2019 (UTC)RickRiffel2020 3 September 2019
-Cheers.—[[User:InternetArchiveBot|'''<span style="color:darkgrey;font-family:monospace">InternetArchiveBot</span>''']] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">([[User talk:InternetArchiveBot|Report bug]])</span> 16:24, 21 January 2018 (UTC)
+== Popularity? ==
-== Anecdotal stuff to be verified ==
+So, how many books did he sell? Ellison has always been a writer more popular among the media than the sci-fi readers, to me.  <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/2601:346:580:1FD0:502B:6FE2:67D6:75FC|2601:346:580:1FD0:502B:6FE2:67D6:75FC]] ([[User talk:2601:346:580:1FD0:502B:6FE2:67D6:75FC#top|talk]]) 16:02, 31 May 2020 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
-I met Harlan in 1980 when he and his girlfriend flew into Salt Lake City to support the state NOW through a whirlwind series of TV and film festival appearances. The man had an insane amount of energy - his girlfriend said she couldn't stand to be around him on a daily basis as he'd wear her to a frazzle. Apparently he had several personal assistants back in Sherman Oaks who rotated so they could keep up with him. We also had to work in shifts to get him around town to all his appearances.
+== Hugos. ==
-He mentioned that he had been in the Army Airborne back in the 1950's when drafted.
+Right …
-[[User:Mccainre|Mccainre]] ([[User talk:Mccainre|talk]]) 04:47, 29 March 2018 (UTC)
+How are we defining ‘Hugo Awards,’ here?
-== The 2nd wife is not mentioned in the article. ==
+At various point, the article tells us Ellison won eight Hugos.
-The 2nd wife is not mentioned in the article. Someone should correct this. [[Special:Contributions/2604:2000:F64D:FC00:3025:3261:A67A:791C|2604:2000:F64D:FC00:3025:3261:A67A:791C]] ([[User talk:2604:2000:F64D:FC00:3025:3261:A67A:791C|talk]]) 01:09, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
+Whereas the list of Hugos he won … run’s to eleven items …
-== Troll tagfest ==
+What’s happening … ?
-A tag on every &sect;, with a redundant one on the whole article? [[Special:Contributions/98.4.124.117|98.4.124.117]] ([[User talk:98.4.124.117|talk]]) 12:49, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
+[[User:Cuddy2977|Cuddy2977]] ([[User talk:Cuddy2977|talk]]) 17:54, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
-== Useless tags ==
+== Marriage to Susan Allen Toth: incorrect ==
-You know, there are two kinds of people in the world: productive people and unproductive people. All those tags requesting that somebody fix the article are completely useless. I'd like to suggest the people putting them in do a little research and improve the article themselves. Same for the comments here. Take charge, people. Don't wait for somebody else to do it. [[User:Pkeets|Pkeets]] ([[User talk:Pkeets|talk]]) 13:02, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
+Susan Allen Toth was never married to Harlan Ellison. She married the architect James Stageberg in 1985 and they were married till his death. Her last b ookw as about caring for him in his final years.
-:Agreed. Tagging is a little like spotting a hitchhiker on the highway, stopping to hang a sign around his neck saying "HEY! PICK THIS PERSON UP!" and then driving off.
-:Since I don't see anything on the talk page specific to the sectional tags, I don't see why they can't be removed with the same abruptness with which they were placed. [[User:Antandrus|Antandrus]] [[User_talk:Antandrus|(talk)]] 13:55, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
+https://collection.mndigital.org/catalog/p16022coll38:225?pn=false#/kaltura_video
-::People who don't know anything about him are coming here to learn more about him. Whining that they aren't picking up the fumbled ball and researching him themselves isn't helping. Frankly, this article really kinda sucked a couple days ago. The lede basically just said that he wrote a lot of SF and cited two books he edited, and the "personal life" section literally started with his ''third'' wife! I've worked on both of those problems. There's a lot more to improve. Maybe stop commenting on the commenting and get to work yourself? -[[User:JasonAQuest|Jason A. Quest]] ([[User talk:JasonAQuest|talk]]) 16:11, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
+https://www.startribune.com/obituaries/detail/12637084/
-:::I removed the "Rewrite section" tags. No reasons were given, and the template itself only references [[WP:MoS]]. Yes, the article isn't perfect, but the issues it has aren't WP:MoS issues. [[User:Moscow Mule|Moscow Mule]] ([[User talk:Moscow Mule|talk]]) 20:33, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
+https://www.amazon.com/No-Saints-around-Here-Caregivers/dp/0816692866  <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/97.125.196.140|97.125.196.140]] ([[User talk:97.125.196.140#top|talk]]) 03:11, 26 March 2021 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
-==Criticism==
-Not criticism OF him, criticism BY him. i believe his best work was his criticism, but its given short shrift in this article. im having trouble finding solid references describing his criticism and how good it was. if anyone can find a source for this, i would appreciate it. his acerbic wit in his nonfiction work pretty much saved his ass, considering how problematic he was.[[User:Mercurywoodrose|Mercurywoodrose]] ([[User talk:Mercurywoodrose|talk]]) 15:51, 29 June 2018 (UTC)(Mercurywoodrose)
+A cursory look at the material suggests that Susan Toth and Susan Allen Toth are two separate people.
-== Date of Death ==
+[[Special:Contributions/75.137.172.90|75.137.172.90]] ([[User talk:75.137.172.90|talk]]) 15:31, 28 May 2021 (UTC)
-Most sources say he died on June 28, 2018. The L.A. Times mistakenly
-say he died the night before.  <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/207.38.189.88|207.38.189.88]] ([[User talk:207.38.189.88#top|talk]]) 17:17, 29 June 2018 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
-:His [http://harlanellison.com/ own web page] says 28 Jun, as does the [http://www.vulture.com/2018/06/writer-harlan-ellison-dead-at-84.html original Twitter notice from Christine Valada]. [[User:Moscow Mule|Moscow Mule]] ([[User talk:Moscow Mule|talk]]) 18:50, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
-::It might be relevant that un-verified Twitter accounts are never [[WP:RS]], so information from that source would be inadmissible; perhaps "Vulture" is a RS and, in turn, did better fact-checking on the account owner and assertions, but the fact remains that we can't keep restoring a bare link to the Tweet in the article. [[Special:Contributions/2600:8800:1880:91E:5604:A6FF:FE38:4B26|2600:8800:1880:91E:5604:A6FF:FE38:4B26]] ([[User talk:2600:8800:1880:91E:5604:A6FF:FE38:4B26|talk]]) 03:23, 5 July 2018 (UTC)