Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ian Campbell (Canadian politician)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. bd2412 T 03:27, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

Ian Campbell (Canadian politician)

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Ian Campbell (Canadian politician) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)

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Redirect to the Vancouver municipal election, 2018. Subject does not pass WP:Politician. He is currently a councillor of the Squamish Nation, of ~4000 people, among 15 others, which does not confer notability. He is running for mayor of Vancouver in the upcoming 2018 election, but that doesn't confer notability either. 1l2l3k (talk) 19:16, 20 August 2018 (UTC)

Lean DeleteWhile I don't know where I'd stand on tribal leaders, 1l2l3k has a point that candidates do not normally meet the specifications of WP:NPOL. If he wins, he'd be notable as Mayor of Vancouver. The question then becomes: is his work as councillor and hereditary chief of the Squamish Nation enough for notability? That I don't know. Bkissin (talk) 19:31, 20 August 2018 (UTC)

Keep I am not sure about whether his role as a hereditary chief of the Squamish Nation alone makes him notable or not, but I feel we should be careful removing content related to aboriginal people. As a group, they are under included in Wikipedia. Of course alone that is not a reason to keep if he is not otherwise notable. He is the mayoral candidate for the current ruling party/slate Vision Vancouver in Vancouver the third largest city in Canada. His candicatcy has been covered in multiple reliable sources: The Georgia Straight, CBC News, Vancouver Sun, and Globe and Mail (as cited in the article). Not cited in the article as of yet, his campaign has also been covered in the StarMetro (newspaper)[1], Vancouver Courier[2], CTV News[3], North Shore News[4] and Squamish Chief[5]. If he is elected, he is certainly notable. If he is not, he likely is anyway given the coverage to date, and which will continue until the election in October.--Darryl Kerrigan (talk) 19:57, 20 August 2018 (UTC)

Whether presence or not of aboriginal people is under or over included is of no relevance for notability. There is nothing in the wikipedia policies that says that when a subject is aboriginal, a different level of care should be used. Are you making an argument that he has received significant press coverage, thereby falls under second bullet of WP:NPOL? In this case the onus would be to bring sources that consist of writings which cover "in depth, independently in multiple news feature articles". With the exception of the article on "the Star" I don't see in-depth coverage in other articles. --1l2l3k (talk) 20:19, 20 August 2018 (UTC)

Whoa, don't get WP:HOSTILE. I think the concern that Darryl Kerrigan and I have is whether being an Aboriginal chief satisfies notability outside of the campaign context. I can't say that I know personally. When Elsipogtog member Susan Levi-Peters ran in Beausejour in 2011, she was considered non-notable, but I can't remember if she was a chief or not. Steam5, Bearcat, your thoughts? Bkissin (talk) 20:44, 20 August 2018 (UTC)

Thanks 1l2l3k and Bkissin. I have made some additions to the article and am starting to think he may be notable simply for his role as Chief of the Squamish Nation. During his tenure, he was the negotiator on the Squamish, BC Woodfibre LNG project (which he was ultimately opposed to), and was Chief when the nation filed a court challenge against the Trans Mountain Pipeline. Some of his statements were reported well before he declared for mayor, including his proposal that the Fairmont Academy, a former RCMP barracks, in Vancouver, be torn down despite its heritage designation due to its history in the "marginalization of indigenous people". Ultimately, it appears the building is going to be moved. Before he declared for mayor, this[6] profile was published in BC Business. Anyway, more food for thought. Look forward to hearing from others.--Darryl Kerrigan (talk) 01:55, 21 August 2018 (UTC)

I was by all means not rude in my earlier paragraph, just stating Wikipedia's policies. I left a note in the talk page that may require attention. I repeat: there is nothing for tribe leaders, even if we consider them under WP:NOBLE that would make them inherently notable: only GNG saves this article. I think the article got very good improvements in the last 24 hours by Darryl Kerrigan, that can satisfy the second bullet of WP:NPOL.and at this point, I can use WP:WDAFD and can withdraw my nomination, always provided that @Bkissin: agrees with me and strikes his "delete" vote. --1l2l3k (talk) 15:27, 21 August 2018 (UTC)

We typically don't include general WP:ROUTINE campaign coverage as counting toward WP:GNG under WP:NPOL - and all of the coverage is currently campaign related as he's unelected, but it does seem there should be enough sources about his career as the Squamish Nation regardless of his mayoral run to get him there, but I'm not sure they're in the article yet. SportingFlyer talk 13:15, 22 August 2018 (UTC)

The pre-candidacy, Squamish nation activity all sounds like routine local political leader stuff, deals about real estate, naming a park, doing stuff when Olympic Games come to the region, opposing a gas pipeline. It's what local leaders do. Then the popular ones run for a significant office, like Mayor of Vancouver.E.M.Gregory (talk) 21:50, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Politicians-related deletion discussions. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 19:42, 20 August 2018 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Canada-related deletion discussions. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 19:42, 20 August 2018 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of British Columbia-related deletion discussions.--Darryl Kerrigan (talk) 21:57, 20 August 2018 (UTC)

• Keep - I think being a hereditary chief of a major indigenous community probably makes one notable, providing there are reliable sources. -- Earl Andrew - talk 15:26, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
• Note that Squamish Nation pop. 3,600. more or less mayor of a very small town.

• Squamish is one of 3 numerically small indigenous groups, that hold lands that can be described as over $1 billion in developable properties.E.M.Gregory (talk) 16:38, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

• Delete as editors state at top of discussion, he is one of 17 members of the Council that manages Squamish affairs. I take "hereditary chief" to be an honorific, like being "Sir" somebody in England. It doesn't confer notability. (cf. Wakeley baronets; baronets don't get articles by right of heredity, ergo, neither do chiefs). There is some news coverage pre-dating candidacy, like this in a local paper: (my apologies for the Password protected Proquest link) Leaked audio says towers part of Jericho vision; Squamish chief airs land deal details at band meeting, Mackin, Bob. North Shore News, May 2016: A.6. in which Campbell promotes/defends landholding arrangements shared with other tribes and promotes high-rise development of a jointly-held tract in Vancouver.) But he's just a non-notable individual running for Mayor at this point.E.M.Gregory (talk) 17:37, 28 August 2018 (UTC) Changing opinion to REDIRECT. see below.E.M.Gregory (talk) 17:02, 29 August 2018 (UTC)
• Keep. It may be WP:TOOSOON for him to pass WP:Politician but the referenced, secondary sources appear to grant him notability under WP:GNG. I found Darryl Kerrigan's argument that under represented groups of people should find inclusion to be persuasive as well. No, it doesn't grant them notability per se but we should consider this when considering deleting information. Ifnord (talk) 21:16, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

• *Wow. Just Wow. This is the 3rd editor who has come to this page to suggest that we have double standards, judging members of certain groups by a higher, tougher standard, and of Amerindians by lower, easier to pass standards. Color me gobsmacked. Stunned. Saddened and dazed.E.M.Gregory (talk) 21:45, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

While E.M.Gregory is tending to his smacked gob, I'd like to point out I came here to add to the discussion of this article's AfD, I am not bonded to either side and did not come here to promote any double standards. Also, we treat many groups of people differently for notability purposes; Olympic athletes are notable for simply competing but Paralympic athletes are only notable if they win a medal. See WP:NOLYMPICS. Perhaps we require notability guidelines for First Nation leaders. Ifnord (talk) 17:23, 30 August 2018 (UTC)

• Now, back to our regularly scheduled programming. Pre-candidicy coverage is minor, coverage during campaign is WP:MILL for candidates, even though it does exist. We have standards for candidates; we keep them only if coverage is extraordinary.E.M.Gregory (talk) 21:45, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

E.M.Gregory, we all understand he is not notable simply because he is running for Mayor. The article on the 2018 election suggests there are at least seven others running for that position this year. Not all of them are notable, nor deserving of their own article. As we are all aware Mr. Campbell is the current chief of Squamish Nation. Not a large group by population, but given the British Columbia Treaty Process and aboriginal land claims the nation packs a punch much larger than its ~4000 members alone. This is shown by the reporting on Mr. Campbell and his role (as Chief of the Nation), concerning the Woodfibre LNG project, the Trans Mountain Pipeline (kind of a big deal for the last number of years), the 2010 Winter Olympics, the proposed renaming of Stanley Park (which received significant nation and local coverage), and the removal of the old RCMP barracks (more of a local issue). There are 14 citations in the article. A quick google news search for ("Ian Campbell" Squamish) tenders 654 results. Sure, some of this is routine coverage of the municipal election, much of it is not however, and is instead coverage from his time as Chief. If you change the date range, to exclude articles since he declared for mayor there are still tons of articles (at least 10 google pages, doesn't show the number though). In addition to being chief, he was one of the founders of MST (and remains a board member of that corporate entity), which manages over $1 billion in real-estate holdings for the Squamish Nation and two other first nations in the Vancouver area. No one is saying that all candidates deserve an article, but there is a lot of ink that has been spilled about this guy, and he has been around for a while with his fingers in a lot of pies. We should not be so dismissive of him simply because it took him running for mayor for the likes of me to pay attention. Anyway, more food for thought.--Darryl Kerrigan (talk) 00:24, 29 August 2018 (UTC)

I ran a Proquest news archive search, limited dates to exclude the campaign coverage, and, as I state above. the pre-campaign coverage was minor, local, and MILL, documents Campbell's participatin in local issues as a community political leader. Stuff like opposing a pipeline through the area. So, yes, First Nations unite in pipeline fight; Bailey, Ian. The Globe and Mail; Toronto, Ont. [Toronto, Ont]18 Jan 2017: S.1., quotes"Chief Ian Campbell of the Squamish Nation said following a news conference declaring common concerns," as the community's spokesman. A lot stuff of the type: (Squamish Nation elects new council; TIA ABELL Staff Reporter. The North Shore Outlook; North Vancouver, B.C. [North Vancouver, B.C]08 Dec 2005: 10. ...Baker, Deborah Baker and Chief hitIan hitCampbell, one of the four hereditary chiefs....); but we would need if WP:SIGCOV, articles that are about him, profiles, or deep dives into his political and financial doings. If you can find those - pre-campaign - I'm always willing to change my opinion. But I'm only seeing that sort of coverage once he's running for Mayor. E.M.Gregory (talk) 11:39, 29 August 2018 (UTC)

• Comment – Can anyone state the policy that says tribal leaders of tribal nations (more specifically, those with under 5,000 people) are notable? I also do agree with EMG above, that it should wait until after the election before deletion is considered. If not, I support a possible Redirect to the Vancouver municipal election, 2018 because there is a mention of him there. If this is done, the revision history shouldn't be deleted, solely to preserve the article in the case that he wins. Redditaddict69 00:22, 29 August 2018 (UTC)

I did not argue for keeping until after the election. I argued for delete, but changed to REDIRECT.E.M.Gregory (talk) 21:30, 31 August 2018 (UTC)

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

@Redditaddict69: There isn't any such policy, and I believe, as nominator, that the redirect is the best solution for now. --1l2l3k (talk) 13:25, 29 August 2018 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Kirbanzo (talk) 02:12, 29 August 2018 (UTC)

Redirect to the Vancouver municipal election, 2018 makes sense.E.M.Gregory (talk) 17:00, 29 August 2018 (UTC)

• Keep - Redirecting to Vancouver municipal election, 2018 does nothing to address the questions of his notability for his role a Chief, council member, or founder of MST. If he is notable for these reasons, or a combination of them, directing to Vancouver municipal election, 2018 obscures these issues and dismisses them.--Darryl Kerrigan (talk) 18:23, 29 August 2018 (UTC)

• The Squamish (pop. <4,000) have 4 hereditary tribal chiefs, but if you have some sources supporting the idea that any of his former roles supports notability, please bring it to this page.E.M.Gregory (talk) 22:35, 29 August 2018 (UTC)

• There are numerous sources in the article and noted above. In addition to those, there are these ones [7] (January 13, 2017), [8] (2012), [9] (2014), [10] (2015), [11] (2016), [12] (June 30, 2017), [13] (Dec 05, 2017). All these articles are before he declared, as are the numerous ones about reconciliation, mining/pipeline projects, MST founding and operations, and his stances on renaming, removal of building/parks etc, etc...--Darryl Kerrigan (talk) 00:59, 30 August 2018 (UTC)

• Notability need to be demonstrated by showing that there were profiles or WP:SIGCOV of him before he ran for Mayor. These articles only make it clear that he was a spokesman on political and financial issues.E.M.Gregory (talk) 10:42, 30 August 2018 (UTC)

• Alright, I am not going to fight anymore. You have made up your mind. There are literally hundreds of articles about this guy. Some are profiles after he started to run for mayor. Those certainly cover him personally (as the main topic), but you completely dismiss those as he has not yet been elected (as Mayor, only Chief). You dismiss anything about his positions on issues as Chief saying that is "trivially" reporting on things. You dismiss his roles on the basis that his First Nation is too small, not significant enough etc etc. Doesn't matter if he has been elected in Squamish Nation elections three times. Doesn't matter if his photograph appears many many times in major publications like the Globe, Vancouver Sun, CBC etc. Just doesn't matter. I get it First Nations don't matter. I am not a First Nations person. I don't have a dog in this fight, but I am noticing a certain bias in the WP community about First Nations topics and people now. In the TOTALITY of ALL of the reporting it is clear that he is notable. Go ahead, delete the article.--Darryl Kerrigan (talk) 01:37, 31 August 2018 (UTC)

• Kerrigan, I have tried, really tried to give your arguments and sources a fair hearing, combing through the sources you suggest and others I find in searches. But the positions you cite, chief (of a tiny group with 4 "hereditary chiefs," and as one of a several people who put together a real estate cooperative (holding lands for 3 native American groups,) do not confer notability. The articles, many in local media, are about issues, not about him. He is cited as a tribal leader, and often serves as a spokesman for the tribe, and the press does run his photo in some of these articles. but they are not profiles, and do not provide WP:SIGCOV of him, and his accomplishments appear to me to add up to those of a local political leader doing his job. In short, this is an article about a candidate, and his claim to notability will only be validated if he wins. Our standard procedure is to REDIRECT to the page about the mayoral race.E.M.Gregory (talk) 14:59, 31 August 2018 (UTC)

• Keep Campbell obviously hits WP:GNG for his role in the highly WP:SUSTAINED Kinder Morgan pipeline controversy; and with his involvement in Vancouver politics and the Olympics quite handily gets past the WP:BLP1E bar. Simonm223 (talk) 16:02, 31 August 2018 (UTC)

I am not seeing SIGCOV of Campbell in pre-campaign stories about Kinder Morgan pipeline. What I am seeing, and is mostly very local and it mentions him without saying he led the movement. There is some in larger media, Vancouver Sun]] 2014: "At a news conference Friday, Squamish Nation chief Ian Campbell says his people do not consent to Kinder Morgan's proposed activities on the mountain and the related tanker traffic it would bring." but that's all, and its immediately followed by "Charlene Aleck, a Tsleil-Waututh councillor, told a gathering of protesters at the base of the mountain that members of her First Nations band would join the actions aimed at protecting their homelands and waters. 'For the Tsleil-Waututh nation, it is our sacred obligation,' she said to a cheering crowd. 'In our shared opposition to Kinder Morgan we are many people paddling one canoe. Our united opposition and the sum of our collective voices will ensure this pipeline is never built.' Activist Tamo Campos, the grandson of David Suzuki, said he was emotional after his arrest on Thursday...." and so forth. Campbell shows p as a spokesman, and a leader. I am always willing to change an iVote, but you'll have to persuade me with sources that show WP:SIGCOV pre-dating his candidacy.E.M.Gregory (talk) 18:56, 31 August 2018 (UTC)

288 news stories describing Campbell's participation in the Kinder Morgan fiasco dating back as far as 2012 when Campbell was already a speaker at anti-KM rallies. This on top of his involvement with the Olympics. On top of his involvement with major First Nations land management issues. On top of his mayoral run. Simonm223 (talk) 19:01, 31 August 2018 (UTC)

Yes, I have access to an excellent news archive and I have scanned tehm on searches with his name highlighted. He speaks at rallies, and gets quoted - one of many anti-pipeline activists. What I am not seeing is journalists describing him as a key figure in the protests or pre-campaign copy that is SIGCOV of Campbell.E.M.Gregory (talk) 19:07, 31 August 2018 (UTC)

I'm confident that even if you don't want to change your !vote that the clear evidence of his notability per WP:GNG will be evident to the rest of the community. Simonm223 (talk) 19:09, 31 August 2018 (UTC)

But one last point, for the sake of clarity, the Squamish First Nation is at the heart of the Kinder Morgan dispute as the pipeline would cross Squamish land, and as such, Cambpell's role as "a local politician" is central to this story of significant national and international interest. The central core of the dispute is that first nations groups were not properly consulted; and the protests put forward by the Squamish group has been a key example of that, as evidenced by the log I provided. So how is Campbell central to the Kinder Morgan dispute? Because his nation is central to the dispute. Or did you think it was random chance that he's being quoted directly along side Stewart Phillip in the CBC? Simonm223 (talk) 19:15, 31 August 2018 (UTC)

Stewart's page needs an upgrade, but there is material on Stewart like Globe and Mail: https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/british-columbia/article-twenty-questions-with-gra Twenty questions with Grand Chief Stewart Phillip]. Again, you could persuade me by bringing WP:SIGCOV on Campbell.E.M.Gregory (talk) 20:03, 31 August 2018 (UTC)

I provided you with exceptional detail of WP:SUSTAINED It's not on me if you have decided that it doesn't count for reasons that seem entirely opaque. Simonm223 (talk) 10:41, 1 September 2018 (UTC)

• Comment to the closing admin User:Darryl Kerrigan has voted twice in this AfD. This is disruptive as it gives the impression to other voters to believe that Keep has more weight, which is not necessarily the case. --1l2l3k (talk) 18:17, 31 August 2018 (UTC)

  I took the liberty of striking through his extra !vote. I'm willing to assume that it was an honest mistake or a surfeit of passion over what has become a heated discussion. It should be pretty obvious to any Canadian why issues of minimizing first nations voices with regard to the Kinder Morgan controversy on today of all days would be treated as a hostile action. I would suggest some latitude is allowable in this regard. Simonm223 (talk) 18:23, 31 August 2018 (UTC)

  They advised me on their talk page that they misunderstood the re-listing process and thought they needed to refresh their !vote - a mistake, not malice. Simonm223 (talk) 18:48, 31 August 2018 (UTC)

  Thank you both, Simonm223 and 1l2l3k. I think I was confused about the effect of the re-listing of the AfD. Thank you for clarifying this and striking out the second Keep nomination which appeared on my behalf.--Darryl Kerrigan (talk) 18:53, 31 August 2018 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.