Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Company of Death

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. —fetch·comms 02:28, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Company of Death

Company of Death (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log • AfD statistics)

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I have check on Google for search results for the article, all it turns to be a catering company based in Manhattan, New York City, New York. I suspect that the article may be a hoax. I suggest this article should be deleted because of that. Also, Cunibertus should be blocked for disruptive editing. --JJ98 (talk) 01:40, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

• user Jj98 should be blocked because he is incompetent and consequently unapt to do anything useful on wikipedia or an hoax himself, if he would be somehow limitedly competent he should have looked for medieval historical matters or also for classical theater operas as I would suggest him http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_battaglia_di_Legnano facebook would be also a useful source for him, considering his cultural limits http://www.facebook.com/photo_search.php?oid=49135283761&view=all if mr JJ98 had any interest in military history I would also suggest him http://militaryhistory.about.com/od/battleswars10011200/p/legnano.htm http://burnpit.legion.org/2010/05/battle-of-legnano-italians-defeat-frederick-barbarossa%E2%80%99s-germans/ but the links to the related articles of the battle of Legnano and Alberto da Giussano are also clearly present on the page of the article. I would also ask why people whose specific interests, and I would hope competence, is in totally different areas of expertise, as for Mr JJ98 in tv soap operas or another one in eastern european matters, would say anything in areas where the same individual hasn't clearly any notion about as is the medieval history of Italy frankly the absurd number of incompetent individuals I have to increasingly suffer on wikipedia is quietly annoing and a bigger minus for the whole project itself. Cunibertus (talk) 01:59, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
• Delete as hoax. Supposed founder Alberto da Giussano is probably fiction, as says article about him and fictional person cannot establish company. If it not hoax, this Company lacks notability. --Yopie (talk) 07:52, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

I wouldn't assume that the unit is a myth just because the person is a myth. After all, Bugs Bunny is an Honorary United States Marine. Fiction could have been applied to a real entity well after the fact. As to the veracity of the hoax claim itself, it's hard to tell since I can't read Italian, which all three sources are written in. I'd lean towards not, since the has survived since September 2007. bahamut0013^words_deeds 21:47, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

• Note: This debate has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions. —Yopie (talk) 07:57, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
• Do you know many historical persons are considered legendary including William Tell, Zoroaster and Bogomil ? According with your no-logic you should propose also the delation of every article related to Switzerland as it has never been created as its legendary founder is a fictionous personage evidently someone ignores that in pre-modern times the use of a collective pseudonym was quietly common to designate the related realizations of a group of individuals, evidently someone never read the jewish or the christian Bible (forex http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Isaiah#Authorship) and for a better research about the Company of Death, which is simply a spinoff of the article of the Battle of Legnano ((Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL), (Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL), (Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)) about the relevance of the Company of Death, "Battaglia di Legnano" picture made between 1860-70 by Amos Cassioli, Florence, Galleria d'Arte Moderna di Palazzo Pitti portrying a Knight of the Company of Death with the symbol of the skull and bones on his suit it is related to the main article to which it is linked, The Battle of Legnano [1] and of course to the Barbarossa, the History of the Holy Roman Empire. In the long term the decline of imperial power would divide Germany until the 19th century the Investiture Controversy. The dispute did not end with the Concordat of Worms. There would be future disputes between popes and Holy Roman Emperors, until northern Italy was lost to the Empire entirely. The Church would turn the weapon of Crusade against the Holy Roman Empire under Frederick II. According to Norman Cantor: The investiture controversy had shattered the early-medieval equilibrium and ended the interpenetration of ecclesia and mundus. Medieval kingship, which had been largely the creation of ecclesiastical ideals and personnel, was forced to develop new institutions and sanctions. The result during the late eleventh and early twelfth centuries, was the first instance of a secular bureaucratic state whose essential components appeared in the Anglo-Norman monarchy."[14] Once again I have to complain about the interference on wiki of poorly competent individuals in matters they haven't any notion about. Cunibertus (talk) 09:47, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

• This AfD nomination was incomplete (missing step 3). It is listed now. DumbBOT (talk) 14:59, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

Woah, stop folks. It's not a company as in business, it's a company as in a band of brothers. What on earth makes you think it's a hoax? To me it looks like a piece of italian historical research, badly phrased in English. Keep and rephrase slightly. Chris (talk) 15:47, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 19:15, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

the name of Alberto da Giussano was mentioned for the first time by Galvano Fiamma who is also the source of the largely common notion amongst anglo-saxon scholars that the knights of death were an infantry unit (more exactly he mention both a larger cavalry force and a smaller infantry unit as part of the company)

“Saputo dell’ arrivo dell’imperatore, i Milanesi ordinarono di preparare le armi per poter resistere. E viene fatta una società di novecento uomini eletti che combattevano su grandi cavalli i quali giurano che nessuno sarebbe fuggito dal campo di battaglia per paura della morte e non avrebbero permesso che nessuno tradisse il comune di Milano; e inoltre giurarono che sarebbero scesi in campo a combattere contro l’imperatore ogni giorno. A quel punto la comunità scelse le armi e il vessillo e ad ognuno venne dato un anello in mano; e vennero reclutati come cavalieri al soldo del comune così che, se qualcuno fosse fuggito, sarebbe stato ucciso. Capo di questa società era Alberto da Giussano che aveva il vessillo del comune. Poi venne fatta un’altra società di fanti scelti per la custodia del carroccio, i quali tutti giurarono di preferire morire che fuggire dal campo di battaglia.” (Chronica Galvanica cap. 291 f. 81v).

'Known' s arrival of the emperor, ordered the Milanese to prepare weapons to resist. It is a company made nine hundred chosen men who fought on the great horses who swear that no one would have fled from the battlefield for fear of death and would not allow anyone who betrayed the municipality of Milan, and also swore that they would have taken the field to fight against the Emperor every day. At that point, the community chose the weapons and the banner and each was given a ring in hand and were recruited as knights in the pay of the town so that if someone had escaped, he would be killed. Head of this company was Alberto da Giussano who had the flag of the municipality. Then came another company made for the custody of the soldiers selected for Carroccio, who all swore they would rather die than flee from the battlefield."(Chronica Galvanic chap. 291 f. 81v).

Sire Raul a chronicler contemporary to the events is unfortunately a bit too much laconic in his style to be useful in correcting Galvano

as far as we moderns know the milanese army was commanded by a collective of elected magistrates, and amongst the main ones (consules and rectors) there were an Alberto da Cairate and an Alberto the Long, amongst a more specific group of 50 lower magistrates charged to direct the milanese forces there was also an Alberto Glaxianus (de Gluxano, de Gluxiano aka da Cassano) but those weren't supposed to be real military commanders but administrative officials, it is presumed by modern historians that an Alberto da Giussano as the heroe and commander mentioned in the later chronicles (Fiamma and Coiro) didn't exist at the time, the first one known in a similar role lived may be 50 years later, but that was simply a collective pseudonym as was also common use in antiquity and during the middle ages

note: the da Giussano were a family of the milanese warrior aristocracy yet important in the 9th century and estinguished in the 18th century, a Oto da Giussano (accordingly Fiamma one of the three da Giussano brothers who fought amongst the knights of death) was effectively a knight commander of the Lombard League in the years of the Battle of Legnano

Cunibertus (talk) 22:38, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

Chronicon Vincentii Canonici Pragensis in Monumenta historica Boemiae by Fr. Gelasius Dobner (1764)

apparently we have a czech who ignores his country has been a vassal state of the Holy Roman Empire (and in the specific of the Hohenstaufen dynasty who prized their loyal servants with the dignity of the Kingdom of Bohemia), his clergy had served Frederick I Barbarossa and Frederick II Hohenstaufen (and wrote chronicles about the events they directly partecipated, as a Vincenzo canonico di Praga or in latin Vincenti Canonici Pragensis , who were later used by more recent historians as Pietro Verri for their histories of Italy and Milan, see http://www.enricopantalone.com/ladistruzionedimilanoelesueconseguenze.html), that a chosen guard of 300 czechs knights usually served the above mentioned emperors in the italian campaigns and the same knight guard leaded the imperial forces who stormed Milan in 1162 AD (http://it.wikisource.org/wiki/Storia_di_Milano/Capitolo_VII).

Mediolanenses tandem, plurimis amissis, et captis, Bohemorum ictus non valentes sustinere, inter muros se retrahunt, quos Bohemi victores, usque ad ipsas portas caedentes, insequuntur.

An interesting detail from a czech who would claim to be an expert of medieval italian history and apparently isn't, of course he could be somehow aware that italians and czechs are ennemies traditionnels or nemici storici, as the traditional friends of Italy in eastern europe have always been Hungary and Poland, but that could also raise the light suspect that the above mentioned individual is pursuing some personal weird agenda with political connotations in the event he isn't simply ill-informedCunibertus (talk) 22:12, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

I don't know what's going on here but if we are assertain whether this is a hoax, it can be settled fairly easily. The Company of Death defending the Caroccio at Legnano is the subject of a painting by Amos Cassioli, a copy of which is in Wikipedia commons here

. Unfortunately, only half the picture is shown but the Death Company skull & crossbones is seen on the cavalry figure. Not much of a historical source but certainly proof of a pre-existing Legend. I have a large scale coffee table book Vezio Melegari The World's Greatest Regiments 1972 (originally published in Italy in 1968) which mentions the Company being led by Alberto da Giussano and consisting of either 300 (p.42) or 900 citizens (p.44) of Milan. So, not a hoax. Even if the exact truth of the Company cannot be established, it obviously plays a part in the national story of Italy and is worthy of an article on that basis. However, the article needs works to be brought past stub class and several statements are factually dubious (it is extremely unlikely that the Company would have been a light cavalry unit, for example). So Keep but improveMonstrelet (talk) 16:58, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

Whoops - embarrassingly large picture there - have reduced itMonstrelet (talk) 18:32, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

the different consistence of 900 or 300 men is simply due to the fact that the "company" was really composed of two units, two companies, not one. a bigger cavalry force also known as the knights of death (this the unit the legend claim commanded by Alberto da Giussano) and an infantry force who had both sworn to defeand the carroccio to death. the infantry unit was 300 men strong. the consistence of the cavalry unit is debated, 900 men is the number we get from Galvano Fiamma, but other sources say 300-500 and the modern scholars agree, for different reasons, around 500. the traditional point of view has been that the knights of death were heavy cavalry but more recent studies I used as source consider it as a more flexible medium force comparable to later dragoons able to fight both as armored infantry and cavalry, see the southern italian sergeant at arms of the osprey book on the normans as a reference Cunibertus (talk) 18:07, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

Lombard (north italian) light cavalry 12th century AD http://www.adnkronos.com/IGN/Assets/Imgs/B/barbarossa--400x300.jpg http://static.screenweek.it/2009/8/7/Barbarossa-Raz-Degan-Rutger-Hauer-Federica-Martinelli-Kasia-Smutniak-Cecile-Cassel-42_mid.jpg Cunibertus (talk) 18:30, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

• Keep in spite of the lengthy Keep !votes which fail to provide any reliable sources. Reliable sources do actually exist. [2] Calls and countercalls for editors with opposing views to be blocked are counterproductive. Edward321 (talk) 13:01, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

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Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Black Kite (t) (c) 10:10, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

• Keep. Note that the 19th century English sources also called it Cohort of Death ([3]). Plenty of sources, either check Edward321's list above or browse your own library. Surely, everything from the 12th century might be a chronicler's error or a later gloss or simply a misunderstanding of modern interpreters, but uncertainty does not affect notability. East of Borschov 10:28, 13 August 2010 (UTC)
• Administrative Keep - Unfortunately the WP edit counter is (intentionally) off-line so it is impossible to count the edits of the initiator of this article, but they are sufficient and focused enough to pretty much dismiss the charges of the nominator that the article is a "hoax." The nominator also goes after the initiator personally, which brings into question the merit of this entire challenge. I don't like the smell of this... Carrite (talk) 14:44, 13 August 2010 (UTC)
• Keep: Notability can be confirmed through reliable sources. Inniverse (talk) 15:36, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.