Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/D-flat minor

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was No consensus. Deathphoenix ʕ 05:10, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

D-flat minor

• A scale that does not correspond to a key signature that no one sees what its advantage is. Delete. Georgia guy 18:08, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Delete. I can't fathom what useful information could possibly be added to the article. David L Rattigan 18:12, 13 June 2006 (UTC) David L Rattigan 19:09, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Weak Keep some examples of notable pieces of music that uses this key would definitely improve the article a great deal. But the key exists and a modest article on it seems suitably encyclopedic. Gwernol 18:16, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
  • I would say keep if I thought there were actually some verifiable sources or examples of pieces in this key, but do they actually exist? David L Rattigan 18:19, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Yes, I found some, including a Rachmaninov piano concerto [1]. Google turns up several. Most of them arerelatively minor (nothing like Beethoven's Fifth) but they exist and some are notable enough. Gwernol 18:28, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
      • Think you meant a Rachmaninoff Etude, by the way. Rachmaninoff's Concertos are in F-sharp minor, C minor, D minor, and G minor. TheProject 22:41, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
    • I've added four example pieces by notable composers to the article. Changing my opinion to Keep. Gwernol 18:47, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Delete Changing my vote (again) given the further evolution of the conversation. It looks like the most appropriate thing to do would be delete this article and mention D-flat minor in the C#minor article, per Godwhacker. Apologies to the closing admin for the complexity here. Gwernol 16:23, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

• Strong delete. Having played both pieces, I'm quite certain that Chopin's Schzero Op. 31 is in B-flat minor (alternatively, in D-flat major, the key in which it ends), and his Prelude Op. 28 No. 15 in D-flat major, and I've never seen anything suggest otherwise. The Prelude has a section in C-sharp minor, which would be equivalent to the supposed D-flat minor. I've never seen this section written in flats, however, and I don't think the fact that there's one section of the Prelude that goes into a key, that, if written in flats, would constitute D-flat minor, is enough of a reason for saying that the Prelude is in D-flat minor. Furthermore, I can't see any place where the Scherzo goes into anything remotely approaching D-flat minor. The closest thing one can find is a section in E major, equivalent to F-flat minor, the relative key to D-flat minor. Unless there's an actual manuscript edition somewhere that suggests that these pieces were originally written in an eight-flat key signature, I'm inclined to dismiss this as a hoax. (I can't speak for the Rachmaninoff or Schubert pieces.) TheProject 22:36, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep. I am changing my vote also. I did the same search and found a surprising number of pieces in this key. Although I am skeptical whether anyone editing the article will find actual references to people writing about the key and its qualities, in theory it could be expanded. David L Rattigan 19:09, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• strong keep Rachmaninov, Schubert, Chopin! — brighterorange (talk) 19:34, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
  • It seems those pieces are not actually in the alleged key, so I retract my strong keep vote. But if there are any actual pieces by notable composers, this should be kept. — brighterorange (talk) 17:54, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep Delete. We also have articles on A major, A minor, A-flat major, A-flat minor, A-sharp minor, B major, B minor, B-flat major, B-flat minor, C major, C minor, C-flat major, C-sharp major, C-sharp minor, D major, D minor, D-flat major, D-sharp minor, E major, E minor, E-flat major, E-flat minor, F major, F minor, F-sharp major, F-sharp minor, G major, G minor, G-flat major, and G-sharp minor. Either all should stay, or all should go. On behalf of the Action Committee for Equal Opportunity for all Musical Keys, While all keys are equal, some are more equal than others. Sincerely, Lambiam^Talk 22:33, 13 June 2006 (UTC) (modified 01:05, 14 June 2006 (UTC))
  • Comment: those keys all technically "exist" (i.e. can be written in standard sharps and flats notation) within the circle of fifths. D-flat minor, however, is a non-existent key that involves being written using double-flats. See circle of fifths -- it will explain it better than I can. TheProject 22:39, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep. I have no clue why this is being nominated. I'm completely puzzled by it. --badlydrawnjeff talk 22:49, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
  • It's nominated because the key doesn't exist. TheProject 22:56, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Uh... --badlydrawnjeff talk 23:02, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
      • Here, let me explain. In music, major keys start from C major and either add sharps or add flats, up to a maximum of seven (there are seven named white keys in an octave with which to make sharp or flat). Minor keys are related to major keys in a one-to-one correspondence and are arrived at by taking the major key, going down three steps (not three letters) on a keyboard, and changing the "major" to "minor.
      • Starting from C major and adding sharps and going up a fifth every time one adds another sharp, one arrives at the key of G major, which has one sharp (F sharp), then the key of D major, which has two (F and C sharps), then A major (FCG), E major (FCGD), B major (FCGDA), F-sharp major (FCGDAE), and C-sharp major (FCGDABB). After this, there are no more keys going up, as all named white keys ABCDEFG have already had a sharp applied to them. Therefore, there is no key that is a fifth above C-sharp major, which would technically be G-sharp major.
      • The minor key corresponding to C major is A minor, and the minor keys corresponding to the major keys I've just listed by adding sharps are E minor, B minor, F-sharp minor, C-sharp minor, G-sharp minor, D-sharp minor, and A-sharp minor. Again, there is no minor key that is a fifth above A-sharp minor, as this would involve an eighth sharp, and there are only seven notes to sharp.
      • Adding flats brings a key down by a fifth every time another flat is added. Starting from C major and going down, one arrives at the key of F major, which has one flat (B flat), then the key of B-flat major (B and E flats), E-flat major (BEA), A-flat major (BEAD), D-flat major (BEADG), G-flat major (BEADGC), and C-flat major (BEADGCF). Again, after this, all named white keys ABCDEFG have already had a flat applied to them. Therefore, there is no key with an eighth flat that is a fifth below C-flat major (which would be F-flat major).
      • The minor keys corresponding to these keys are, respectively, D minor, G minor, C minor, F minor, B-flat minor, E-flat minor, and A-flat minor. The key that would theoretically follow next is a fifth down from A-flat minor, which is D-flat minor -- the subject of the article in question. The issue is that D-flat minor would involve an eighth flat.
      • Basically, the imaginary keys that have eighth or more flats -- in this case D-flat minor -- are nothing more than that: imaginary. Hence why this key is not the same as the other keys listed by Lambiam. Hope that all made sense. TheProject 23:19, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
        • I was a music minor in college. I'm aware of how the typical scale structure works, and I'm still not at all bothered by this article. My puzzlement is why people are looking to delete this, as it's otherwise legitimate, albeit obscure and little-used, as well as not entirely technically sound. --badlydrawnjeff talk 23:22, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
          • Sorry, you looked a bit confused. :-) I still don't see the basis of your opposition. It's not a legitimate key. TheProject 23:28, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
            • TheProject, my understanding is that what you are saying is only true for equal-temperament scales. In other temperaments, you can sharp or flat anything as many times as you want. B-double-flat is not exactly the same as A. D-flat minor has to exist, because, for example, you might want to modulate up a fourth from A-flat minor. If you announced that you were then in C-sharp minor, you'd be theoretically wrong, and in a non-equal-temperament scale, you'd be tonally wrong as well. I'm not a music major, so I admit I could be missing something, but I can't figure out what it is. --Allen 04:44, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
              • Very true -- it does apply strictly to equal-temperament, and I hadn't quite thought about that. But unless there's a notable work written before equal temperament in D-flat minor, I think this should be a non-issue. If we included D-flat minor based on equal temperament alone, we'd also have to include A-sharp major, which seems absurd to me. Also, as I've said already, I can't find any works in this supposed key, probably because equal-temperament occurred soon after notation was developed. :-) TheProject 06:41, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Did some more research on the four pieces supposedly in D-flat minor listed in the article. The two Chopin works I've covered in my comment already, and looking through Amazon's collections of recordings of either work should verify that the Scherzo is in B-flat minor/D-flat major and the Prelude is in D-flat major. The Rachmaninoff work doesn't exist -- his Op. 8 is a trio elegante, and the work on the CD in the link I believe refers to Scriabin's Op. 8 No. 10, which is in D-flat major, according to B&N[2] and Amazon[3], and I suspect it's similar to the two Chopin works with modulation in key. As for the Schubert quartet, look at the cover image carefully: the title card says "String Quartets in E flat and D minor". A look at List of compositions by Schubert verifies indeed that the Death and the Maiden Quartet is indeed in D minor. So we're again left without any piece in the supposed key of D-flat minor, and quite frankly, I'd change "little-used" to "never-used". :-) TheProject 23:42, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Almost everything about "D-flat minor" is covered in minor scale, by the way. TheProject 00:19, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

  Comment I appreciate the level of research and knowledge being brought to bear here. I should stress that I have no technical knowledge of music, I'm merely looking for examples of D-flat minor music referenced out on the web. If there are none and the experts here concur that this key is a minor technical oddity then I'm happy for the article to be deleted.

  However I am still able to find several pieces of music that claim to be in D-flat minor. Could someone with the appropriate technical knowledge take a look at the following and render an opinion?

• this references a Rachmaninov etude that apparently has a movement in D Flat minor
  • It's actually a set of etudes, of which the fifth is claimed to be in D-flat minor. Looks to be simply incorrect: list of compositions by Sergei Rachmaninoff indicates that Op. 33, No. 5 is in D minor, and Amazon confirms this. TheProject 22:56, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• (towards the bottom) references a Skrjabin etude
  • Scriabin's Etude Op. 8, No. 12 is in D-sharp minor (I have a recording of it), verified at list of compositions by Alexander Scriabin, and ... hey, we even have an article on it. TheProject 22:56, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• this references a Chopin nocturne
  • Op. 9 No. 1 in B-flat minor, with a section in D-flat major. (I have a number of recordings of this also.) Amazon, Wikipedia TheProject 22:56, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• this has a prelude and fugue by Shostakovich
  • D-flat major again. We have an article on the Preludes and Fugues of Shostakovich, where it states that the pieces are arranged in relative major/minor pairs around the circle of fifths, so No. 15 would mathematically be in D-flat major. TheProject 22:56, 14 June 2006 (UTC)Amazon
• this has a Dvorák waltz
  • I couldn't find anything on Amazon about this, but the recording company's own page on the CD says D-flat major. TheProject 22:56, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• this article talks about Elgar's use of the key
  • Not having heard or seen the score for this piece, I can't really speak for it, but the article mentions that the key is modulated into (i.e. the piece moves to the key temporarily) for a two bar-phrase. This isn't really writing in the key -- for example, moving to a key a fifth above the key that the piece is written for, temporarily, is standard in classical pieces, and sometimes, if a piece is written in C-sharp major, the music will move temporarily into the imaginary key of G-sharp major. However, the piece won't actually change keys to G-sharp major; the temporary key change is simulated, rather than written in. Also, given that the key of the piece is B minor (two sharps), I'm wondering if perhaps it's simulated in C-sharp minor (four sharps), rather than D-flat major (eight flats), as it would be very unusual to simulate a key written in flats (and especially with so many flats) using a base key written in sharps. TheProject 22:56, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

From quick searches going in the other direction (find the work and the keys normally used):

• Chopin Op 9/1: B flat minor
• Rachmaninov Op 33/5 E flat minor
• Scriabin Op 8/12 D sharp minor
• Shostakovich Prelude and Fugue no. 15, D flat major
• Dvorák waltz, Op 54/2 (B 105/2) D flat major
• The Elger article is not really talking about a scale there. Also, I don't trust that write-up as a whole, because it lists the title as "Quartet for Strings in B minor, Op. 83" but the recording itself is E minor.[4] [5]--iMeowbot~Meow 22:53, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

• And there are a lot more. Are they all incorrect?

  Genuine thanks for the effort to improve Wikipedia whatever "side" you come down on. This is a very constructive debate. Gwernol 21:51, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

  The first five all appear to be "bloopers", so to speak. The sixth one I consider dubious, at best. Hope that moves this discussion forward. TheProject 22:56, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

• Comment I believe the wisest thing to do here is to Redirect to C# minor, and add a note about the non-existence or rarity of Db minor. Perhaps in some methods or other pieces of music Db is seen as a learning exercise? Also in Jazz keys change often, and a tonal center may conveniently be writte as Db minor, as opposed to C# minor--This is done becuase the key signature need not be changed and no confusion occurs. Adambiswanger1 00:52, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• BJAODN. Nonsense, but clever nonsense :) --iMeowbot~Meow 02:32, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• delete after moving it to BJAODN per iMeowbot. It fooled me too. lol --Starionwolf 04:22, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep or Redirect and Merge as a music student, I can appreciate this article. It may not be the most popular key, but it isn't far enough from reality to warrant deletion. It is a legit key, but can probably be safely deprecated as a variety of C#minor, so long as some mention is made of D-flat as an enharmonic spelling. At least in the world of even-temperment, this should be sufficient. --Godwhacker 05:38, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Comment - With the vast number of possible DNA combinations, it's just about plausible that talking wolves with purple feathers could exist. Still, we don't have an article on such a species because that combination hasn't actually occurred. A good example of why an article on nonexistent beasts (other than those labeled as fiction) aren't good article subjects appears right in this thread: the article currently contains copied erroneous examples of the key's usage. --iMeowbot~Meow 16:56, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Not really worth changing my vote, since it seems the article is destined for the garbage can anyway, but this has been a most illuminating discussion! David L Rattigan 18:23, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.