User talk:Bharatooz

Ahmadiyya

Please read Talk:Ahmadiyya#The word heterodox and take the discussion on board before labelling an entire religious denomination "heterodox."--Peaceworld 16:33, 18 July 2015 (UTC)

Once you have read that, take a read of the article Heterodoxy; as we'll have to label almost every denomination of almost every religion heterodox, meaning majority of the world is heterodox. So let's not take that fall.--Peaceworld 16:58, 18 July 2015 (UTC)

Hi User:Peaceworld111 I'm not sure I understand? I have read the stated sections. I am certainly not refering to the Ahmadiyya Muslims as heterodox. The reference is from a published work by Olav Hammer, who is Professor of History of Religions at the University of Southern Denmark. The publication is from Cambridge University Press. I think it adds balance to the article, which seems to have a majority of references from the Ahmadiyya Muslim community. Do you not think the reference is suitable? As it is a legitimate quotation, what is the reason it cannot be used?

• I'm not questioning the reference here. Placing in the lede that "Ahmadiyya is heterodox..." cannot be used for a host reasons mentioned in Talk:Ahmadiyya#The word heterodox. As one user writes, "There's a big difference between Wikipedia asserting in the religion's article that it is heterodox and pointing out that from some perspectives a religion is considered to be heterodox." For example, the same author, Olav Hammer, who has edited the The Cambridge Companion to New Religious Movements writes that "the Ahmadiyya, regarded as heretical..." which is not the same as writing "the Ahmadiyya are heretical...".
• As another user writes you are really opening a can of worms. If you read the section on Heterodoxy#Islam, you'll find almost every sect considers each other heterodox, yet we do not find, for example the article Shia doesn't say "represent the second largest, heterodox denomination of Islam", despite there being evidence from a number of reliable sources, which I cannot be bothered to write here.--Peaceworld 07:14, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

Hi User:Peaceworld111, Thank you that's clearer now. Although the article heterodox in relation to Islam, is primarily unsourced opinion, rather than researce. What edit would you be more comfortable with. It appears that a large proportion of Muslims consider the Ahmadiyya Muslims to be heterodox, and a significant number of experts in the field. I'm concerned that the article provides a very one sided interpretation of the Ahmadiyya Muslims.

With the Sunni Shia Schism, the differences are clear. I think Orthodox Sunni interpretation, orthodox Shia opinion, orthodox Ahmadiyya opinion can be defined.

Perhaps somewhere it could be inserted that the Ahmadiyya are heterodox according to the orthodox Sunni majority, this could further be defined?

I intend to contribute towards a broad scope of subjects in relation to comparitive religion, time permitting.

You need to wp:sign the post in order for the wp:ping to work. Your comment above is not signed, so Peaceworld111 was not pinged. Vanjagenije (talk) 14:13, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

Bharatooz, Heterodoxy#Islam though largely unsourced, there are plenty of sources out there that do support details mentioned in the article. You will find that there are innumerable articles on Wikipedia that are unsourced but do not necessarily fall under the category of original research. The following sources are just the tip of the iceberg:

• "It is important to understand that Sunnis regard Shias as heretics and blasphemers"
• the Sunnis, who consider themselves the orthodox Muslim denomination and regard the Shia as heretical denomination"
• Orthodox clerics often despise Sufis considering them heretical and deviant Muslims"
• Alawite doctrine is regarded...heretical by some Sunni and Shia Muslims
• Most Deobandis consider Shias as Kafir
• Sunnis and Shia regard each other as heretical Non-Muslim"

Despite this, we do not find any of this mentioned in Shia, Sunni, Sufi. Details of this kind should generally be placed in articles such as Shia–Sunni relations or Ahmadiyya and other faiths. In spite of this, however, the lead on Ahmadiyya already mentions "Most orthodox Muslims have denounced Ahmadis as kafirs or heretics, and mainstream Islam generally considers them to be non-Muslims," which I believe is misplaced and should probably be mentioned in the section on Ahmadiyya#Persecution as they are interlinked and the opinion of Muslim groups is not very important as to what Ahmadiyya is itself.--Peaceworld 15:17, 19 July 2015 (UTC)