Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive21

Eleland issues persist

The following discussion is an archived report. Please do not modify it. Subsequent reports should be made in a new section.

Cut it out. Seriously, cut it out. You know who you are, because plenty of other people have told you to cut it out.

Disruptive editing and insulting behavior are not acceptable. Read this notification. If you were not aware of the ArbCom ruling before, which I doubt, you have been notified now. Any further disruption will result in topic bans or blocks, without further warning. This has been way out of hand for too long. It been three months since the ArbCom case, and many have been involved for much much longer. Just to be sure you don't miss it, read: Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Palestine-Israel articles#Discretionary sanctions.

Everyone is responsible for their own actions. I'm quite sure that everyone understands what is expected of them and how Wikipedia works. Avoid making comments about other editors. Do not engage in general debate about topics. Stop escalating already heated situations. Do not use demeaning edit summaries. Do not cloak personal attacks in general comments and pretend they are not personal attack. And so on, and so on. There are pending dispute resolution processes and people offering to help out; I strongly suggest accepting such options and trying your best to move forward productively. Vassyana (talk) 02:19, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

---

Arbcom case: 'Case Final Decisions' .

• Eleland (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Incivility and personal direct and indirect attacks

The following is a list of problematic occurrences following an Eleland successful unblock request where Eleland justified his unblock request saying:

“ referring to anothers' edits as "idiocy" and "garbage" is inexcusable. I apologize for the insulting language. -- User:Eleland unblock request. (00:34, 15 February 2008) ”

See #Comments leading to the block included

Post unblock incivility

Note: The comments are clearly directed -- during conflict -- at editors, not content and pose a huge disruption to proper conflict resolution.

• "[Jayjg] fairly ludicrous interpretation" Eleland, 20:19, 18 February 2008

• Making "vague" and "indirect" comparisons of right-wing Israeli politicians with Wiki-editors he's in conflict with:
  • "I've noticed an odd tendency on WP to over-emphasize the "Palestinian-ness" of Jordan, and I can't help but wonder if a person or persons is pushing for the POV of the Israeli extreme right that "Jordan is Palestine." Eleland, 00:16, 20 February 2008
  • "Sidelines about incivility (or whatever) will not distract from the real issue here... Benjamin Netanyahu and Avigdor Lieberman (e.c. see POV/BLP below) do not hold "veto power" over our presentation of facts in this encyclopedia. Nor do their adherents." Eleland, 16:02, 20 February 2008
  • "I'm aware that there are far worse Israeli right-wingers than Netanyahu. Some of them edit Wikipedia." Eleland, 23:28, 20 February 2008

Comments from the last month

• "Breathtaking inanity. ... Your argument is intellectually dishonest, of course, and not meant to be taken seriously." Eleland, 21:51, 28 March 2008.
• "paper-thin rationalization for tendentious behavior" Eleland, 16:45, 29 March 2008.
• "in accordance with your own extremist POV." Eleland, 21:46, 2 April 2008
• "rv exremist POV-pushing" Eleland, 22:17, 2 April 2008
• Reverted Nickhh adding commentary thinking it was Jaakobou:
  "Ha, ha. I figured that was Jaakobou or something" 20:26, 15 April 2008 (added 18:54, 26 April 2008 (UTC))
• "This is what we call "shifting the goalposts," Jaakobou. Not to mention "latent racism."" Eleland, 15:26, 16 April 2008 (added 18:41, 26 April 2008 (UTC))
• "I don't believe you're capable of sincerity" Eleland, 16:25, 23 April 2008

To remind, editor has continued uncivil commentary even during the 7 day time to which he made his civility pledge while getting unblocked.

Comments leading to the block included

• "a [[User:Jayjg|time honoured tradition]]... makes you look rather desperate" Eleland, 23:52, 18 January 2008
• "your personal crackpot interpretation of the RSes" Eleland, 09:15, 20 January 2008
• "you continually waste time with this idiocy?" Eleland, 15:38, 14 February 2008

See #Post unblock incivility

Comments/Discussion

• I request some administrative action performed on Eleland (talk · contribs) to clarify to him that his conduct is in contrast with the purpose of wikipedia. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 20:15, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
• While it's mostly not of my concern, I have been indirectly notified of this discussion and will add my 2 cents. I definitely agree that Eleland has serious civility issues. In a somewhat heated discussion between User:Pedrito and myself on Talk:Avigdor Lieberman, Eleland chimed in with this comment, which is a direct personal attack. His previous edit to the same talk page was also a personal attack of sorts. Reviewing the rest of his edits in the 'last 250' for Talk:Avigdor Lieberman, it appears that he also made personal attacks against Jaakobou.

Analyzing the data, it appears that nearly 100% of Eleland's comments on that specific talk page (in the last 250) were personal attacks. Therefore, this is surely not a one-time issue, and it appears that Eleland uses personal attacks and ad hominem attacks very often. I am counting on the admins to take a fair course of action, in light of at least one previous block against Jaakobou for similar (mis)conduct. -- Ynhockey ^(Talk) 21:08, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

If you have "analysed the data," you should demonstrate this, rather than simply asserting it, so that your anaylsis can be confirmed or disputed. And calling a statement "remarkably foolish," and then providing copious documentation to falsify that statement, is neither a personal attack nor an ad hominem. <eleland/talkedits> 21:17, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

• Clearly, this behavior is disruptive and not the way to engage in collaboration. The ArbCom remedies were quite clear, and short of mentors taking this editor to account, a one month ban from related articles may be a way to cool off the spirits. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:10, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Are you talking about me, or Jaakobou? Because the only diffs from the last two months which Jaakobou has presented relate to Avigdor Liberman. I would urge you to look into that issue in more depth than just a few scattered duffs. Much like his actions on Palestinian fedayeen which got him taken to ArbCom, Jaakobou was removing enormous sections of text, and when asked about it he would only provide quibbles and cavills about particular phrases or citations, rather than justifying his blanket removals. He was claiming that quotations were "taken out of context," but he refused to explain what "context" would, in his view, correct the problem. This is his standard modus operandi - act outrageously, then quote the outraged reactions out of context and fire them off at administrators. What I can't believe is how easily this tactic seems to work on you folks. <eleland/talkedits>
    • Some of the comments that Eleland responded to were unreasonable, and if Jossi is suggesting a month ban for Eleland, then in my humble opinion that would be excessive. The purpose of the sanctions is to ensure the smooth running of the project, and I don't think a month is necessary. PhilKnight (talk) 21:42, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
• This complaint does indeed indicate a persistent problem, both the initiating factor, and the responses to it. There is no doubt that there are issues with many of Jaakobou's edits; however, a certain set of editors, including, quite frankly, those listed below, have taken that as a license to insult and revert him with impunity, mercilessly tag-teaming him, and even publicly encouraging each other to revert him. When he opens discussion on Talk: pages, they often mock or ignore him entirely. When he comes here for relief, they insist he is vexatious, and should be sanctioned for complaining about being insulted, reverted and ignored. WP:CIVIL is still policy, and the Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Palestine-Israel articles#Decorum principle is quite clear. Nonetheless, these editors somehow feel they have free reign to violate these policies and principles even on the AE board itself: gratuitous insults like "User:Jaakobou's endless whingeing" are a violation of both the letter and spirit of Wikipedia's civility policy, and are also covered by the Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Palestine-Israel articles. Jayjg ^(talk) 13:36, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Jayjg, while there is some truth in your comments, it should be noted that half of his complaint was so frivolous that it has been removed. PhilKnight (talk) 21:42, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
    • PhilKnight, I decided to retract content based complaints since it's more difficult and time consuming to review, and the civility issue is easier to address to. I don't think my content concerns were "unreasonable" or in the words of Eleland "Breathtaking inanity" and "intellectually dishonest"-"exremist POV-pushing", but maybe I've somehow errored and you know the material better than me.
      With respect, Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 07:31, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Jayjg, can you provide some actual evidence for the "tag team reverting" accusation rather than just broadly asserting it? I'm sick enough of hearing that complaint from Jaakobou without someone else weighing in with it as well. The problem is not that people are ganging up on him, but that he is a persistent advocate of minority positions - Jaakobou is, quite simply, an extremist POV pusher who frequently mis-cites sources and engages in spurious talk page debates which totally miss the point under discussion and sap everyone's energy. He managed to drive ten editors off the Saeb Erekat article, and keep his treasured but farcical "Criticism" section in for months, because none of them had the stomach to cope with him. To be honest he should be ignored more, were it not for the damage this would ultimately allow him to wreak on the project - the problem is that Eleland and others, myself included, try to roll back some of his more extreme edits and end up in heated debates; and then those reactions end up being selectively quoted and pulled together into the sort of dodgy dossier we see presented here. And are you suggesting that it was somehow unfair of me to class this complaint as being vexatious?! --Nickhh (talk) 09:26, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Sure, here's an example: this edit, in which you revert Jaakobou, and encourage Pedro to do the same with the comment "Pedro, your turn next if he does it again ;}". As for his "vexatious" complaint, is that the discussion in which you said to Jaakobou "Get over yourself. It's like dealing with a sexually frustrated and incontinent adolescent"? Jayjg ^(talk) 03:39, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Oh yeah that one? The one with the sarcastic wink (slightly mistyped, I'm not usually an emoticon user), which I put in directly after Jaakobou had falsely accused me and Pedrito of tag teaming, yet again? If you'd looked a bit harder into the diffs and history, you might have spotted that. And that the edit itself was entirely legitimate of course. Do you think I'd have challenged you to find evidence of tag-teaming if that edit summary had been serious? I hadn't forgotten it was there, and you've kind of walked right into that one I'm afraid.

And yes I did make that comment in a previous WP:AE discussion, from quite a while ago now, because it was an utterly spurious complaint, and Jaakobou as part of that complaint proceeded to misquote previous comments on talk pages and repeatedly claim that I was offending him when I was doing nothing of the kind, at least up until that point. I consider repeated false accusations (which go on to this day, and which you are backing up here) to be a pretty serious thing, especially when taken to WP:AE pages and backed up with doctored evidence. And what relevance does that comment have anyway to whether the original complaint was vexatious or not? None of course. --Nickhh (talk) 17:10, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

• • Jay, to say that we've been ignoring Jaakobou is highly fallacious. If you actually read Talk:Avigdor Lieberman you'll find that I engaged Jaakobou's arguments in close detail; it was Jaakobou who ignored my arguments, and repeatedly opened new talk page sections in which to repeat the same trite and unconvincing claims. How do you expect me to respond, when he removes information about Liberman being criticized for suggesting the drowning of Palestinians, claiming that "Source material for this is extremely vague," when the source material, a report in Israel's most respected newspaper, is headlined "Lieberman blasted for suggesting drowning Palestinian prisoners??" Of course I got heated. He was being completely unreasonable. <eleland/talkedits> 09:06, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

User:Jayjg. Do you realise what you are saying? apart from the smearing innuendo, wholly without any grounding in either evidence or, I might add, in the truth, that 'we' (Eleland, Nickh, Pedrito, myself). are coordinating an attack on Jaakobou? We are defending one editor and his occasional peccadillos against a serial complainer. (I have no email, and have exchanged only one or two notes on user pages with each of the others over the last year).

You write

There is no doubt that there are issues with many of Jaakobou's edits; however, a certain set of editors, including, quite frankly, those listed below, have taken that as a license to insult and revert him with impunity, mercilessly tag-teaming him, and even publicly encouraging each other to revert him. '

The substance of this is: Jaakobou's edits are often problematical. The editors listed here, who are only a few of a larger number with similar attitudes to Jaakobou, have registered their constant exasperation with his problematical way of editing.

(A personal illustration for administrators not familiar with the absurd details of so many 'incidents of conflict'. I had to argue for months with him that using the words 'mass murder' of the number ('67') of victims of the 1929 Hebron massacre was problematical, because very reputable sources cite from 59 (Sir Martin Gilbert using contemporary newspaper reports, Aug.1929) to 62,63,64-65 (Tom Segev, Benny Morris),67. My own view is that 64-65 were 'slaughtered'/subjected to mass murder. Two died of heart attacks within weeks of that pogrom, in Jerusalem, from shock and age. This objection of mine may well appear to be a petty quibble. But this is an encyclopedia. He would have nothing of this, insisted on the word mass murder or slaughter (fine if you say 64-5 slaughtered) for 67, that being the highest figure in the historical record. A reasonable man would simply note that several RSes differ, put 64-5 as the number slaughtered and 67 as the direct or indirect victims. No, Jaakobou still won't budge on this. Thus that article registers what he and I know to be inexact information, making it unreliable on this (and a dozen other things), apparently only because he likes the highest estimates for Israeli casualties. I could cite several dozen instances of the same. If however the information deals with Palestinian victims of Jewish actions (Deir Yassin Massacre, Qibya Massacre, Saeb Erekat ond the Jenin Massacre) Jaakobou is galvanized on-line with fierce determination to inject any information that would put the numbers down, and brand those who doubt those lower numbers liars. This is not the way encyclopedias are to be edited. And editors who remark this unprincipled, opportunistic gaming of articles for national-political image-polishing do suffer intense annoyance. All they ask is for Jaakobou to be a consistent editor, and not change his habit of exploiting the complex rule book pretextually and contextually, depending on whether Jewish suffering is to be highlighted, or Palestinian suffering rendered doubtful in the tragically travailled history of that region).

Your explanation of the editors' challenges to this problematical editing is that it shows they are part (cf.including) of a larger number of editors, who haven't troubled themselves to get dragged into this absurd barney, who all 'insult and revert him with impunity' in a coordinated tag-team approach (a cabal). I.e. you are saying that: Jaakobou's editing is problematical objectively, it is so for many (many more than the four here) editors. Then, what conclusion do you draw? that he is the real victim of those who challenge his systematic bad editing, which is often so intensely wall-eared to appeals to lay off factitious POV-stacking that over several months, several times wiggings have occurred. No one else seems to drag so many editors to Wiki administrations claiming he is hard done by, and demands justice for his victimization. He has even managed to wriggle out of a 3RR violation, no mention of which was ever made on his page by the administrator (who 'forgot' to register it) by contacting off-line an administrator who is a ranger in Iraq (on his side of the political barrier) and convincing him that I, not Jaakobou, was at fault, though I hadn't broken any rule, and he the victim (I never complained, never registered a formal notice of impropriety, despite the annoyance this occasioned). On Jaakobou's record, were what happened to me have happened to him, one would have expected a massive protest to administration). He has a huge talent for pleading victimhood, while editing in often shonky material with relentless energy. Nothing in Eleland's edits comes anywhere near the extreme offensiveness that just a few weeks ago got this same Jaakobou suspened from I/P articles for a week, and yet we have at least one editor asking for a month's suspension for a record admittedly stuffed with trivia, now removed. I am biased (to editing collaboratively to the facts as ascertainable in book-knowledge of arguments). I am biased against truckloads of hearsay and newspaper junk clipped to waft a patriotic air over anything to do with Israel). Being thus biased, what I say in Eleland's defence is to be taken cum grano salis, probably. But if Eleland is to be hauled over the coals for a couple of exasperated outbursts over a two month period in which he has engaged with Jaakobou on dozens of articles, then, I should think due reflection should be made, contemporaneously, to the sort of edit-environment Jaakobou creates. As far as I know, the overwhelming majority of 'pro-Israeli' editors in here have not found 'us' (the hypothetical cabal) individually or collectively to be problematical. Only Jaakobou does, and he exhorts administrators consistently to punish us, or, apparently plans to do so. It smacks of a certain spirit of evening up accounts for what he believes to be the injustice of the penalty he wore for mocking Tiamut's distress. If you want to be helpful User:Jayjg, instead of making wild accusations about a cabal of professional insultors mercilessly scapegoating Jaakobou (the old victim-strategy he employs), why not simply get on the blower now and then, or on one of those newfangled instant messangers thingamijigs, and talk over with him what you find 'problematical' in his methods? Why not give him the benefit of your long and intensive experience of Wiki? You share similar POVs I gather (that is not the problem), and he's bound to listen. Above all, tell him not to countersign 'cordially/or/with respect' in reply when his actual behaviour signposts a certain nonchalant contempt for the commonsensical arguments his own edits are often met with, something not conducive to the equanimity of those who must engage with him. No doubt much of what I have said here can be picked over and cited as the violation of some rule, and used as evidence. But since this is a problem a good many editors share, not only those branded by now with The Sign of the Four, and since Jaakobou is constantly at the centre of it, I have spoken plainly and vigorously. I make no call for sanctions. I simply ask that those who can see what is problematical in his editing (admitted by even those who sympathize with his POV) advise him in private a little more vigorously, and remind him that other people do exist, and not infrequently, have views that, simply because they differ from his, are, by that fact, not necessarily scandalous, antisemitic, anti-Israel, offensive, humiliating, demeaning, and a 'blood libel' on the nation he happens to be a denizen of (sorry, Mr. Churchill). Nishidani (talk) 14:15, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Err, no, you "gather" incorrectly, and irrelevantly, since this isn't about me. If you want to see examples of problematical behavior, here's one: Jaakobou tries to get mediation going regarding the Gilad Shalit article. Pedro then insists on adding User:Nickh to the mediation, though Nick has only made one comment on Talk:Gilad Shalit, and that five months earlier. In addition Pedro insists on adding to the mediation an IP editor, who, at the time, had made a total of 13 edits.[1] [2] When Jaakobou objects, he is accused by Nickh of not taking the mediation "in the right spirit". And yes, it turned out that the IP editor was actually an editor who had been involved on the Shalit article, also five months earlier; but of course, at the time Pedro didn't know that. Jayjg ^(talk) 04:08, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry, [[User:Jayjg], you've got your facts wrong there. The whole mediation was started by User:Jaakobou because of edits from the IP-address. Therefore, starting the mediation without the IP-address would have been, well, useless. I still don't really know why I was included in the mediation (which is, mind you, not even taking place), but I was as involved as User:Nickhh, so I included him too. The list of participants was somehow also oddly stacked against me and looked ever-so slightly like a kagaroo-court in the making... Cheers, pedrito - talk - 29.04.2008 08:22

WellJayjg) You've got me. I'm amazed, and realize my age's dysfunctional side, to see how closely you young chaps track all this minutiae, and recall everything, things I wouldn't notice, let alone remember. I have to go on memory, and reflections retained from long experience, tone over an extensive set of interactions. It is this which, albeit subjectively, provides me with my judgements etc.Nishidani (talk) 08:11, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Sorry I've just noticed this sub-thread and wanted to respond as I've been dragged into this here as well. Jayjg, you've got your facts even more wrong than Pedro implies. I actually re-entered the talk page debate the morning of the day the mediation was suggested. And as it happens, I did so specifically to suggest a compromise between the use of the words "hostage" and "captive". I'd have thought that this would have made me a perfect person to be involved in the mediation, twice over - both involved as an intermittently involved editor, but also as someone looking for a middle ground. And Jaakobou did not simply "object" to the addition of my name - he accused Pedro of sabotage on account of his having included me (a pretty clear breach of WP:AGF & WP:NPA I would have thought). When I said perfectly politely and genuinely that I was "curious" as to what he meant by that, Jaakobou then flew off the handle, flinging around inchoate accusations of WP:GAME, WP:BATTLE and WP:POINT, and accusing me of attempting to "derail" the mediation. I in turn, hardly unreasonably, simply queried whether he was approaching the process in the right spirit. I am prepared to accept that your errors of fact and chronology are genuine mistakes; but even given that, to report this sequence of events the way you have above takes the art of selective interpretation to new heights. --Nickhh (talk) 18:43, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

• Without commenting on the actual content in dispute, there is no question that users in this situation, including eleland, are acting in a way that is in blatant contravention to both Wikipedia's civility and personal attacks policies in general and the Arbitration ruling specifically. There is a legitimate dispute over content surrounding Israel-Palestine articles, an area that is a highly touchy subject and is prone to very strong points of view, and it is entirely possible that Jaakobou finds himself on the wrong end of the content dispute this time. However, these other editors appear to be addressing this conflict with abuse. The comments that Jaakobou points out in his original complaint are without a doubt completely out of line. Additionally, they appear to see further abuse as the proper response to this complaint, rather than a reasoned response to it. Take the following comments from this very complaint:

"This posting is a mélange of exaggerations, half-truths, and simple nonsense." - eleland

"The complainant in this case appears to be a political extremist who cannot be expected or trusted to usefully contribute to a reputable reference work. He is on good, personal terms with violent (and convicted, I think) criminal settlers so extreme that even Israel is abandoning them. The unlimited time he has to wiki-lawyer so harmfully drives away good editors." - IP

"We all must look like tiddlers gasping at the bait Jaakobou has thrown to reel in, gugdeon after gudgeon, the notorious off-line school of a fishy pro-Palestinian cabal CAMERA talks of!!!!" - Nishidani

These comments are clearly inappropriate and, once again, breach the guidelines placed by ArbCom. If these editors have a legitimate complaint against Jaakobou, they may file it, and the community will assess it on its own merits, but they may not abuse him, in or out of an AE complaint. - Revolving Bugbear 10:32, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm afraid you've come in, seem to have taken a pretty cursory look around and leapt to a few conclusions. This is not about other editors occasionally reacting to content disputes (although that is an issue), this is about an aggressive individual who makes Blood Libel accusations against other editors, tells them they shouldn't edit or comment on certain pages, accuses them of being "inflammatory" when they offer advice to other editors on AfD procedures, makes wild accusations of tag-teaming, mocks the deaths of over 100 Palestinians with spoof notices on his userpage etc etc. The fact that people on the receiving end of this do not coming running to a forum like WP:AE each time with a cobbled together smear dossier and spouting selectively chosen diffs, whereas Jaakobou does - despite having been given a final warning for doing so (and many of the quotes here are recycled from that last foray) - does not afford him the moral high ground here. However it does mean that people are going to point out the hypocrisy of his actions in response to his posts here. Yes people who edit on I-P need to take a step back sometimes, but this is certainly not a case of an editor being on the end of one-sided "abuse". And as for the comments here you have singled out - a) how does describing an accusatory posting as being a "melange of exaggerations .." even come close to being abuse, or even inappropriate? b) the IP editor was knocked back for their comments, as you should have noticed; and c) I don't see any abuse in what Nishidani said either, they merely make the point that Jaakobou goads other editors. --Nickhh (talk) 11:18, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm afraid you seem not to have actually taken the time to properly read or understand my post. Did I say that this issue is one-sided abuse? No. Did I say Jaakobou is a victim in this matter? No. This is exactly the problem -- rather than actually addressing the issues here, you've gone back on your rant about Jaakobou. Is it feasible to you that the actions of people other than Jaakobou might be inappropriate, no matter what Jaakobou's actions were? Because it doesn't seem like you, and many of the other editors involved in this complaint, are willing to entertain that possibility. I suggest you take a long hard think about the saying "Two wrongs don't make a right". This complaint is not about Jaakobou, it's about other people, and those other people have been clearly making abusive statements. If you want to file a complaint about Jaakobou, do so, do not hijack this complaint. - Revolving Bugbear 20:55, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

And you clearly didn't read or understand my post. Actually I did acknowledge that sometimes editors need "to take a step back"; and in a subsequent post below I referred specifically to the old "two wrongs .." phrase. And in fact, you have accused editors here of abusing Jaakobou, and claimed only that if it went the other way as well, people should file a complaint against him rather than try to "hijack" this one - that is, you are saying as you currently see it, without a clear counter-complaint, that the abuse is one-sided. And of course I did try to point out that a lot of the comments are not even abusive, but you ignored that point too. And why accuse me and others of hijacking this complaint? Didn't Jayjg do this when he started spreading out the "blame" to other editors, myself included? Ultimately I'm afraid if you want to understand what lies behind this complaint, you have to understand something about the complainant. --Nickhh (talk) 06:06, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Once again, no, I never said I thought Jaakobou was innocent in this matter. You have twisted my words and claimed I am saying things I'm not. I said editors were making inappropriate comments that approach the level of abuse. Abuse is abuse is abuse, and "provocation" doesn't justify it. An editor should at all times be ready to speak for or apologize for any edit of his -- something that the editors here have refused to do. Instead, they make exuses, carrying on about how terrible it is to work with Jaakobou. You know what? Then stop working with him. An editor who finds himself unable to keep his cool, as eleland clearly has, should step back and leave the situation until he can approach it with civility.

I'm seeing a lot of talk about all of Jaakobou's transgressions, but very few people owning up to their own actions. You are the Master of your Own Destiny, and an editor who cannot handle that is cruising for a block or a topic ban. - Revolving Bugbear 19:11, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

OK, no you did not say "Jaakobou is innocent", but just for the record, here are your words from your original post here - "and it is entirely possible that Jaakobou finds himself on the wrong end of the content dispute this time. However, these other editors appear to be addressing this conflict with abuse". I and others have pointed out to you that a lot of what Jaakobou and then you have characterised as "abuse" is nothing of the sort; that this is not about reactions to content disputes, but reactions to a tendentious and disruptive editor; and also that people who find themselves reacting this way, should take a step back and bear in mind that two wrongs do not make a right. As a result of the postings here, I have in fact, despite your claim above, acknowledged and struck out one of my own less acceptable comments from a few days ago. So I think it's a little over the top to come here and now start telling people they are "cruising for a block or a topic ban". I also find it odd that your suggested remedy for the problem of a disruptive and tendentious editor is to let them get on with it (OK, to "stop working with them", to avoid any more accusations that I am twisting your words). Anyway, I think everyone has expended more than enough energy posting on yet another discussion page rather than doing any constructive editing, which perhaps is the biggest problem with all of this. --Nickhh (talk) 19:36, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

I did not say that you should leave a disruptive editor to his own devices. I said you should leave a situation in which you find yourself unable to remain civil and refrain from personal attacks. NPA and CIVIL are not optional, and there is no "this guy is making trouble" exception from them. The rule is very clear -- if you can't refrain from attacking or posting abusive comments, don't post. And, in fact, the dispute resolution says just this -- to leave the situation alone if you can't stay cool. There's no mystery here. If you find that curious, I suggest you take some time to study the surrounding policies. - Revolving Bugbear 20:11, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

And yes, you did redact a comment, which was a good move and a step in the right direction. Would that other people here would start following your example. - Revolving Bugbear 20:15, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Actually no, you said "stop working with him" if you are finding it "terrible", which has an air of finality to my reading (I took your subsequent sentence to be a slightly separate point). As you'll note from Tiamut's comment some way below now, this is something she has more or less done - not because she fears she may blurt out some offensive personal insult, but because she finds the whole process of interacting with Jaakobou pretty unpleasant. Why this is the case would be pretty clear were you to look at some of the history there; and also note the fact that of all the editors who posted here to give some background, myself included, she was the only one whose posting got a verbal cannon blast in return.

Finally I am well aware that guidelines and policies talk about taking a step back when debates get heated - I used this phrase myself right at the beginning of course. Oh and I also hope when you say that redacting my comment was a "step in the right direction", that you do not intend it to sound as if I were an errant child with yet more to atone for besides. That would of course come off as a little patronising. Thanks --Nickhh (talk) 20:43, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

User:Revolving Bugbear The stickler approach, and, formally, one must suppose, nihil obstat. Can I just say that I have had WP:CIVIL, WP:AGF and a dozen other pages thrown at me perhaps a hundred times, but by people who refuse to reply to queries, who when asked, perhaps remonstratively, why they revert a highly reliable source, don't answer coherently, but challenge some nuance of wording that can be taken as an infringement of WP:CIVIL. Sometimes I have had the greatest difficulty in deciphering orthographic chaos and slipshod syntax, and, in joshing my interlocutor to try and study English, be reproved for a violation of WP:CIVIL. I once replied that urbanity of address is commended, bad editing style, which strikes me as uncivil and in bad faith when done against repeated and extensively documented arguments to the contrary, is ignored. It is uncivil not to listen closely to what is being argued. I will admit that in User:Jaakobou's case, there have been several occasions (much fewer than in User:Zeq's case) where, perhaps for want of native English Sprachgefühl, he simply doesn't seem (or rather in the past didn't. His English has greatly improved thanks, ironically, to many extensive debates) to understand what his interlocutor is driving at, but rather intuited an arrière pensée a 'covert attitude' behind an opposed edit which he identifies with an anti-Israeli prejudice. The advice you give Nickhh is impeccable formally. The problem is, we are substantially dealing with a several minor expressions of frustration over two months in Eleland's case. He like the rest of us may make from dozens to fifty odd edits a day. Do the sums, and you cannot obtain a pattern of consistent rudeness and unedifying behaviour, but lapses. We are losing a sense, I suggest, of proportion here. I can't help keep mumbling to myself as I read, and contribute to this last of so many many ANI cases, parturient montes, nascetur ridiculus mus (Horace Ars Poetica 139), mountains heave in birth, and a laughable mouse pops out. I wander out into my gardens, and while hoeing and thinking of another edit, emend the line macaronically to 'pascetur ridiculous fuss', a ridiculous fuss is on my browser, if I may be allowed a Joycean pun. Can I suggest a solution? If Jaakobou is desperately in need of a scalp this much, over trivia, let these young people, stakhanovites at the rockface one and all, like Jaakobou, off whatever woeful suspension these minor peccadillos warrant in the august courts of Wiki justice, and let me offer to shut up, by wearing a week-long suspension for boring the pants of everyone, as well as violating the same rules once or twice (see User:PhilKnight's page (perhaps the archived before the present page) where Jaakobou has drawn up a dossier on my defects in civility, as horrendous as anything he has attributed to others here. Will this satisfy all parties? Surely the long-suffering administrators will be relieved. Jacko, sincerely and cordially, I offer to wear a week suspension on behalf of all those whose behaviour you think offensive Nishidani (talk) 20:58, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

(undent) @ Nickhh - Your reaction to a compliment I paid you -- I consider the ability to reasses and admit the fault in one's own words as a significant measure of self awareness -- pushes the bounds of credulity. "Errant child"? "Atone"? Come on. I never said that, and I never said anything close to that. Let's stop the silliness.

Also, I am familiar with Jaakobou and his general MO. I have mediated a case he was involved in, and made reasonable progress in doing so, on an article which was getting quite contentious. From that vantage I can indeed say that there is a way to constructively work with Jaakobou even if you disagree with him and there is a constructive way to communicate with him. The failure of the people involved in this complaint to find out how to deal with him does not excuse their behavior. It doesn't excuse anything he may have done wrong, either. I understand the situation much better than you think I do. But when push comes to shove, if civility cannot prevail, it is the responsibility of every Wikipedian to just walk away until he or she can respond in a cool and constructive way. That's just the way it is.

@ Nishidani - Artful wanderings notwithstanding, it is the responsibility of every Wikipedian to act within the bounds of acceptable behavior as governed by policy. No amount of poetry is going to change that. Sorry. If you feel that Jaakobou has acted in an inappropriate way, then address those concerns specifically and in the proper venue. And please, do so in English, for those of us who only speak two languages. - Revolving Bugbear 21:23, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

I thoroughly underwrite your remarks on 'acceptable behaviour'. The state of policy-monitoring should not be allowed to deteriorate into a policing state (see my note to Nickhh, on his page). I have advised Jaakobou exactly as I have advised others, 'on my side'. Don't turn this place into a bitching market of petty vendettas. Ignore provocations, edit, shout perhaps, apologize, and move on. This is, sir, a hugely inflated casus (sorry I can't help myself) There is far too much hectoring over things that, in a man's world, would not merit an instant's notice. I have had innumerable occasions to complain of what the rules say is incorrect treatment, and yet I don't, and do not accept the advice of administrators and of Jaakobou to do so, however well intended, because of an upbringing that spoke of 'sticks and stones may break my bones, but names will never hurt me', but also because a quick calculation tells me that if everyone adhered to this tactic, and jumped at every slip of the tongue, this magnificent construct of cooperative intelligence would crumble, and all administrators would resign from fatigue. Many have a much better record than I or some others do, simply because their interlocutors on the other side do not seize on every opportunity to score points with administrators. Nishidani (talk) 21:46, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Thank you, I greatly appreciate these comments. They are sound and in good spirit. I suspect the great majority of conflicts on Wikipedia could easily be solved without administrator intervention if everyone chilled out a little like you've outlined here. - Revolving Bugbear 21:57, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

By the way, apologies for the languages, which indeed must sound like pompous flaggings of pseudo-erudition. I did post a piece from Goethe because a quick glance gave me an impression you hailed from that country, and I thought the quote, which floated into mind, a way of honouring such a connection. Cheers Nishidani (talk) 08:06, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Revolving Bugbear. Some times I am driven to desperation. It is a fugitive moment. I reflect that administrative work is a hard cross to bear. An Olympian gaze over the universe of Wikipedia is called in to waive the momentary overview, and fix a busy glance on an obscure cranny, chock full of recondite history, and make a judgement. The evidence is usually a set of diffs, scraping 0.0004% of the material that might constitute the 'history' or background to a disagreement. Unlike the Almighty's omniscient cast of total vision, the administrator must make a rapid call on sparse traces, the more eminent spoors of contention, and judge by a generic rulebook, usually about 'language': WP:CIVIL is the easiest peg on which to hang a conviction. But speed reading over the unfamiliar terrain can often lead to oversights that have grievous consequence. The remark about 'gudgeons' you cite as an egregious instance of uncivil talk is, not only in my intention as its author, ironic and self-mocking, its tenor was playful. Though he is the plaintiff, I saw Jaakobou in a minority and therefore mocked several of us who, by 'rising to the bait' had created a huge fuss that fed his fears as it made them look serious, when the point of commenting was simply to ask him to be less 'litigious'. I wished to take a little heat off the rather heavy cross-accusations that, perhaps of necessity, were being made. Perhaps I should not be editing Wiki, since my main passion in life is language, and I enjoy nuance. Nuance, irony, and a sense of allusive play seem to constantly cop raps over the knuckles. When I once withheld information from Zeq's inquiries, because I told him the material I had might play into the hands of antisemites, and therefore I would not post it here, he accused me of antisemitism, and I, flabbergasted, sat back and thought: 'How is one to edit if delicacy of sensibility is taken as an act of racist canting?' I have been open here because we are not on a page of complicated editing over a difficult issue, but up before administrators with long experience. The problems both sides have had with each other are recurrent. They generate nothing, in comparative perspective, like the riotous and vulgar intemperance for which many useless or troublesome posters are hauled before Administration in Wiki. We are dealing with a handful of peccadillos, ripped from context, over two months, not some wilful campaign of vituperative slanging day in day out. Perspective is everything. So, seeing yet one more endless suit, I, like many have, in defence, put our cards on the table, not to prosecute Jaakobou but to defend Eleland, in the knowledge that administrators and mentors here, at least, are familiar with the contexts, understand that with the best of intentions it is a stressful environment for all, (Jaakobou included) and can, I personally hope, tell all with a quiet word that we, who have to work extremely hard, often unnecessarily hard, on pages no one (it is often remarked) cares to touch because of their difficulty, reflect on our respective POVs, and try to find what is it that annoys our respective adversaries. Endless arbitration over niggling things like the present suit is the sort of thing that risks driving off those few editors, on any side, from ensuring that Wiki has decent articles on this area. You don't get people editing there unless they have exceptional patience, stamina and tenacity (or, like myself, are pensioned twits with a masochistic streak: I have had to spend 7al weeks proving, with some 160 sources, what every native English speaker with an advanced tertary education knows instinctively, that 'uprising' is a neutral word to describe, as scholarly literature in fact describes, the Al Aqsa Intifada, simply because one person, impeccably urbane, without evidence, does not wish that word to be used for fear it might create a parallel with the Jewish Warsaw Uprising. Nowhere in the world of civilised discourse are editors required to maintain perfect poise when their proofs of the obvious are not sufficient unless everyone agrees to them. It makes me smile wryly that I am forced to do this, but I would not blame others were they to blow their top at times). Editors are human, and to exact of them a level of punctilious, flawless hypercivility not even the denizens of the Olympian pantheon show, is to expect too much. Let Goethe have the final word:-

Wie ich so ehrlich war,

Hab ich gefehlt,

Und habe Jahre lang

Mich durchgequält;

Ich galt und galt auch nicht,

Was sollt es heißen?

Nun wollt ich Schelm sein,

Tät mich befleißen;

Das wollt mir gar nicht ein,

Mußt mich zerreißen.

Da dacht ich: ehrlich sein

Ist doch das Beste,

War es nur kümmerlich,

So steht es feste.
Nishidani (talk) 12:18, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Eleland's view

This posting is a mélange of exaggerations, half-truths, and simple nonsense. Jaakobou has previously been given a final warning for trying to use WP:AE as a weapon for block-shopping [3] and yet here he repackages many of the same claims from his "dodgy dossier" and "sexes it up" with a truly despicable accusation of blood-libel (related to an eight-months-stale dispute!)

Those admins who would like to know Jaakobou's history of such spurious accusations should examine Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Jaakobou#Evidence of disputed behavior. <eleland/talkedits> 20:42, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Nishidani's view

I have reposted this here because it was unaccountable removed and relocated in a separate space on the grounds that it dealt with content. In fact it did not deal with content. It addressed User:PhilKnight, who had just posted. By removing both pieces and fixing them in an unalterable archive page below, Jaakobou appears to me to be 'fixing' the page to suit his suit. I am not a technician of rules, but it appears to me that he is determined, having raised a complaint, to manage comments in the order he likes, as if he owned the page. Therefore I append my comment here, where, not being archived, it can be adjusted, expanded or corrected. I should add that while rules ask for civility, repeated futile, tendentious and wall-eared editing, often in disregard of the talk page conversation, to establish a text which then is regarded as authoritative, and may only be modified by persuading its one editor, Jaakobou, to do so on the talk page, is exasperating, and exasperation provokes. I have no intention of building cases against other people, as Jaakobou appears now to do as part of a personal campaign. But I do think it a very grave breach of whatever rule governs interactions in Wiki that he persistently compiles dossiers, over time, on separate administrator pages, without so much as a hint to his targeted victim, in order to disseminate a deeply negative impression about people he has conflicts with in several administrators' minds. His excuse, when this is noted, is invariably, 'Oh sorry. I forgot. Cordially' etc.Nishidani (talk) 08:23, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

This document compiled by Jaakobou is one of several dossiers, apparently, that he is compiling against editors he often finds himself in conflict with. They are usually tailored so as to be unrecognizable to those whose comments are quoted. To control each diff and evaluate them requires several hours, not to speak of lengthy checking of the actual discursive run on talk pages. But what I vigorously disagree with is that, once with myself and now with Eleland Jaakobou lays his evidence out incrementally, day by day, before selected administrators (jpgordon in Eleland's case, yourself, Phil, in my case, without the slightest hint to his intended victim, that he is laying a serious complaint. I only found out that he was doing this by sheer coincidence, several days after he began seeding your own page with a section on complaints against me. By the time the dossier assumes depth, without one's ability to contest each piece, the impression is created of a systematic Israel-bashing lout. I think this unethical. In my own case, I preferred not to waste time even treating this tactic seriously. Eleland appears to think it worth detailed arbitration. I have corresponded with Eleland on this here and on my talk page. I don't think Wiki should be systematically transformed into a whingeing room, there's far too much work to be done. But I do vigorously protest this ominous new tendency by Jaakobou to mount selective dossiers, behind people's backs, and use them with a series of distinct administrators to create the impression, discretely, that a whole gang of marauding louts invest the articles where he himself edits, and that somehow he is a victim. Regards Nishidani (talk) 20:58, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

ps.Perhaps I should say what I should have said some time back, (when my own dossier was compiled), to save further extenuatingly laborious administrative cases. Were I to adopt a consistent policy of cherry-picking every provocative remark you have made in my regard,Jaakobou, I could quite simply mount exactly the kind of case you have mounted against Eleland. You accuse me of, in a mere two paragraphs on PhilKnight's page of:-

(1) 'making bigoted explanations'. No evidence supplied, any more than it was provided by the Israeli ambassador in the UN recently when branding a decent man, Jimmy Carter, a 'bigot'.

(2) ostensibly about 'how racist and criminal the people of Hebron are'. I never said that of the people of Hebron. I said that of their 'spiritual leaders' and when questioned, provided links in Wiki and elsewhere that document the point. Several of them have, as you yourself know, long criminal records, including murder raps.

(3)you completely rip out of all context the phrase 'the problem for Jewish/Israeli editors here', to make it look odd. Check the context. It isn't.

(4) I you invent the idea that I 'suggest' all Israelis are criminals. I never said any such thing, indeed, such an absurd thought had never even crossed my mind until you attributed it to me.

(5) 'Finkelstein is definitely an anti-Zionist and also a borderline anti-semite.' This is extremely naive. A very large number of Jewish intellectuals and a substantial number of Israelis could be defined as 'anti-Zionist' if that means opposition to taking more Palestinian land. It is a neutral descriptive label: you use it as though to embrace that position were an index of prejudice. It isn't. Secondly, you brand a RS a 'borderline antisemite' and, in context, in that I cite this source, tar me with the same brush. 'Borderline' is a word in psychiatric jargon to define a certain pathology which you directly attribute to a scholar, and by innuendo, to people like myself who cite him. 'Antisemite', well: I'm only bemused by that, though I could feign shock, and adduce it as evidence of improper language.

(6)When I briefly countered your innuendos, you replied speaking of my bogus disclaimer claims (don't worry, I won't niggle you on the pleonasm).

(7) You take as somehow a breach of ethics that I 'previously debated the qualities of anti-Zionist sources'. ('JewsagAgainstZionism.com' and 'Neturei Karta International: Jews United against Zionism'.' So? All this means to an inquiring mind dragged in to examine the matter is that, when you elided a ref. to Neturei Karta (anti-Zionist Talmudic scholars)as fringe and not RS you at the same time introduced a text from a hate site. I noted that you can't use a principle against one edit, and then ignore it when pushing another. This last point is something everyone remarks on. You change your wiki criteria according to what you want in or out. No consistency. And this causes much exasperation in those who edit with you.

Take these points collectively, and you get the following picture of me. I am a bigot who brands an Israeli community as racist and criminal, who indeed thinks all Israeli/Jewish editors suspect, thinks all Israelis criminal, uses borderline (slightly mad) antisemitic sources, and in defending myself against your verbal innuendoes engages in bogus disclaimers, and, vilely, debates the merits of anti-Zionist sources. Were I to recognize myself in all this, I'd beat you to the race to have myself hauled before the appropriate Wiki administrative court, while checking in with an analyst to have myself treated. That's a tough rap (also in the musical sense) to wear. Now, as you yourself know, I have never seized on this to worry an administrator. Water off a duck's back. No other Israeli editor with whom I have collaborated, most often productively, has ever levelled charges like this against me (except one who was banned, and another whose record for POV editing is notorious). Indeed I get on rather well, despite some very trying cavilling debates one has to endure, with almost everyone here. In our lengthy and vigorous exchanges I have written to them as I have spoken to you, yet you are the only one to feel imperilled and insulted. This is a hard place to edit, and despite the rules, people at times, who have done some very good work, vent their frustrations, as you have here. I certainly have in the past, much less so now, because the new measures have indeed worked to improve conditions. I suggest therefore that we pass over the intemperance, you have dished out as good as you have gotten. Let's get on with editing. I do suggest, finally that less editing, certainly less of this incessant roping in the bureaucracy to win points and claim victimization, and more off-line reading of book sources, rather than scouring the net 24/7 for info that jives with one's POV to plunk into these pages, is worth considering. Remember booklearning lasts: much of this trivia we scoop up via links can fail: theorists say it may well crash over the years into a tohu-bohu of broken links. Book references won't suffer that way. Books of quality, finally, are the work of long years of research and reflection: journalistic articles are quicky pieces, full of ephemera, and lacking a long perspective. Try that, and not only the quality of one's life improves but, notably, also the quality of one's edits, and thus we all gain, esp. wikipedia. Regards (ps.this may be soapboxing. Feel free to denounce, I won't complain)Nishidani (talk) 16:29, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Nickhh's view

I totally back Nishidani's observations above. Jaakobou is an incredibly frustrating editor to deal with, often stirring up huge talk page debates over relatively simple issues of language and sourcing, especially on articles that he wants to claim ownership of. His mission here as well seems to be to ramp up as much material as he can that pushes a very right wing Israeli POV, or that criticises public figures who he appears to dislike (eg Gideon Levy and Saeb Erekat) on the assumption that this is simply in response to the allegedly egregious "Palestinian propaganda" that otherwise dominates Wikipedia. This leads to fairly robust debate on talk pages, but very rarely any genuinely insulting or ad hominem attacks. Culling together a few random quotes from such encounters, going back months, does not provide a balanced reality of Eleland's & Jaakobou's interaction. And most of those quotes, as has been pointed out, are anyway aimed at fallacious arguments not at Jaakobou or any individual editor. And beyond that Jaakobou is quite capable of taking on his interlocutors and making pretty broad and unfounded accusations, as evidenced by the diffs presented here. In turn he has taken to forum shopping with multiple complaints against the same editors, often for the most trivial (bordering on fraudulent) of reasons - and he seems to be oddly proud of that behaviour, as evidenced by the "Memorabilia" section on his own userpage. If I had more time I'd add more diffs. --Nickhh (talk) 14:18, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps anyone casually passing by should also remind themselves of this charming little screed before leaping to the assumption that Jaakobou is somehow a victim here. No, two wrongs (supposed, in Eleland's case) as they say do not make anything right, but that example gives some evidence of what other editors here have to put up with. Even I will grant that Jaakobou's behaviour has superficially at least improved recently, and that he has also branched out into editing in less contentious areas - but equally I am cynical enough to believe that this is part of an attempt on his part to prove himself to be an appropriate candidate for adminship (my jaw still hurts from when it hit my desk on being made aware of that ambition a while ago). And the new tactic of "Dear xxx ... Yours cordially" is in many ways no improvement on what goes on, given the way it singles out other editors, and also given the comments that actually appear in between the new pro-forma opening and sign-off. --Nickhh (talk) 20:30, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Pedrito's view

I too would like to second the statements by User:Eleland, User:Nishidani and User:Nickhh. User:Jaakobou is here only to push his own, somewhat radical POV on all articles regarding the broader Israeli-Palestinian conflict. His constant edit-warring and wiki-lawyering are a serious impediment to the advancement and improvement of all aritcles in this area.

WP:AGF was tried many times and failed. As a recent example, consider his recent edits on Avigdor Lieberman and compare them to his behaviour at Gideon Levy and Saeb Erekat. In the former he edit-wars to remove criticism of a politician he likes whereas in the later he edit-wars to have such criticism included, displaying, in both cases, completely opposite interpretations of policy and/or judgement. This is not the work of somebody following policy and contributing constructively, but of somebody pushing his or her POV.

I have complained about User:Jaakobou here before (here, here), as have many other editors, usually to no avail. Interactions with his mentor have had the same frustrating result. Recently he's been accusing User:Nickhh, User:Eleland and myself of tag-teaming against him, an accusation which he refuses to prove or drop and persistently uses as an excuse to flout WP:3RR or WP:BRD and massively disrupt articles which are not to his liking.

Summarizing: this is not an isolated incident, but yet another incident by a chronic, un-repenting repeat offender.

Cheers, pedrito - talk - 24.04.2008 14:43

193.109.81.249's view

Comment on extremism

The complainant in this case appears to be a political extremist who cannot be expected or trusted to usefully contribute to a reputable reference work. He is on good, personal terms with violent (and convicted, I think) criminal settlers so extreme that even Israel is abandoning them. The unlimited time he has to wiki-lawyer so harmfully drives away good editors. The mediator who claims to be improving his conduct is world-famous for paranoia and abuse of procedures in Wikipedia. And seems to act only to protect him. I fail to see how WP can expect to be taken seriously while this kind of thing goes on. I'd like to add that nobody brought me to this page, I happened to be looking at the contributions of a different editor I suspect of being a serial abuser. 193.109.81.249 (talk) 11:06, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

And how are the rest of us to know if you are not an agent provocateur. What you say of Jaakobou is an unwarranted (on the only evidence that counts, Wiki evidence) and what you remark infamously of User:Durova in this tirade, ostensibly in favour of the defendant, makes those of us who strongly protest User:Jaakobou's endless whingeing look like your cronies. I don't think I am alone in dissociating myself from these remarks. Nishidani (talk) 11:58, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

193.109.81.249's comments are in line many others I've seen on Wikipedia, and there is no reason to believe complicated conspiracy theories regarding them. Jayjg ^(talk) 13:34, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

In fact, I made no statement of belief. I have always been highly sceptical of conspiracy theories and theorists. So I endorse exactly your point,Jayjg If you check you will see that the gravamen of my remark was to reprove the anonymous editor for his disgraceful remarks, not to suggest he was part of a conspiracy. Nishidani (talk) 14:22, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

204.52.215.95's view

In his response to 193.109.81.249, Jayjg speaks more accurately than he knows. Indeed "193.109.81.249's comments are in line many others ... on Wikipedia," although I would suggest that they more accurately represent a common reaction to Jaakobou's tendentious editing style. In the last several months I have witnesses at least a half dozen instances in which Jaakobou has initiated long and painfully drawn-out wiki-lawyerly arguments designed to stifle BOLDness and to promote his own non-neutral POV, but like 193.109.81.249 I have also been disinclined to whistle-blow for fear of reprisal.

Jaakobou has a long history of frivolous POINT edits that appear to be employed as punishment for those who cross him[4][5] . He seems to have a great amount of time on his hands despite suggestions that he is occupied as a student, and as a result he is capable of binding articles up in states of perpetual limbo by dogmatic refusal to compromise and OWN-like behavior. To the average editor this can be very frustrating and behavior such as this tends to drive editors (especially new editors) away from wikipedia.

When confronted with the fact that his position is in fact in the extreme minority, Jaakobou has made threats to return at a later date, subsequently placing these broad consensus articles on his "unresolved" list to remind himself that he personally took issue with them[6]. The fact that such an editor may return to the article at a later date is enough to turn away many good editors and I believe this is the intent of making such an otherwise unnecessary remark. Although he makes frequent accusations of others stalking him, I do not believe that he is above the same tactics which considering his disruptive editing is of great concern to those who fear reprisal.

Such fear is not without warrant. As both Nishidani and Nickhh have pointed out, Jaakobou collects one-sided dossiers on those he perceives as his enemies and later uses his collection of quotes stripped of context in order to impugn the names of otherwise valuable editors. To make the collection of such quotes easier for himself he engages in baiting behavior and general tendentiousness to provoke editors against their better judgment. His most recent victim of such character assassination is eleland. This AE action was actually filed in response to eleland's RfC action which can be found here. It is a true pity that there has not been greater response to this RfC, but I believe there are two reasons that other editors who would gladly certify the veracity of the claims have not done so. The reason editors like 193.109.81.249 and I hold back is for fear of reprisal. The more unfortunate reason for those few who have had the courage to oppose Jaakobou (all members of Jaakobou's offensive "memorabilia" gallery) is that they have been involved in so many disputes with him and have been implicated by Jaakobou so many times as belonging to some imagined cabal against him that they hold back for fear of demonstrating bias. I would argue that bias against a manipulative and corrupt editor is wiki-appropriate bias however I am in no position to criticize these editors' very real concerns.

Like 193.109.81.249, I have similarly found my way here without anyone telling me about it. I have, in fact, not participated in any of the Israel-vs.-Palestine articles which seem to be Jaakobou's main hangout. Yet, after a brief meeting with him, I have observed Jaakobou's actions as a concerned and editor for some time now because I believe that he represents the worst kind of wikieditor - an intelligent manipulator. I don't believe anyone here would disagree that Jaakobou is clever, but his use of one-sided character-smearing dossiers are exceptionally dangerous for wikipedia. Most administrators are extremely busy and as a result they do not have time to delve deeply into problems which have brewed for months or years. In such cases, for better or worse, administrators are likely to be heavily swayed by an apparently fully detailed log documenting a long history of disruptive, biased, and racist edits even if this log comes from the other editor concerned. By storing these dossiers on the talk pages of other administrators and failing to inform his intended victim, Jaakobou simultaneously gains an ally in that administrator who hears only a one-sided story and covers his tracks for anyone not stalking him. Nishidani and eleland have both recently discovered the cost of not stalking Jaakobou. When it's time to launch an AE case, Jaakobou has a storehouse of goodies to draw from as well as the support of a neutral administrator.

Above all this, however, the fact that Jaakobou seeks to become an administrator himself is the thing which worries me the most. I feel terrible for Durova who seems to be a very wiki-conscious and all-around good mentor. She has been forced into the position of endlessly defending Jaakobou's actions against his "enemies" and she must by now be getting quite a headache from his controversy-ridden edit-wars. I think Durova sees some good in Jaakobou as she is his mentor after all, however I think this view is misguided. The potential which Jaakobou has to be a good administrator (as evinced from his intelligence, doggedness in defending/promoting his ideals, and perseverance in the face of adversity) is unfortunately dwarfed by the potential he has to be a bad administrator (as evinced by his strong political views, uncompromising attitude, and penchant for malice).

I strongly dispute the charges against eleland and would recommend, instead, a strong warning if not a temporary ban against Jaakobou to remind him that wikipedia is neither an appropriate venue for personal philosophies, nor a BATTLEground where GAME-playing and rhetorical wiki-lawyering are the weapons. My dream scenario involves a permanent topic ban resulting from violation of the final AE warning, however I recognize that this is unlikely. Finally, I would recommend that Durova review her decision to mentor Jaakobou and I plead for the anonymous editor in general that such an editor not be released as a full administrator without thorough proof that he can look beyond his own POV. 204.52.215.95 (talk) 19:20, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps I should clarify. I don't hold back in fear of being caught for 'bias'. I wear on my pages, the badges of my infamy quite proudly, injustices mostly, but froth off that notable acquatic creatures back. I tried to advise Eleland of what I thought was an inopportune time for defending himself. I'll say publicly what I thought privately when he asked me if I was interested in commenting on his appeal. If Eleland is punished, I'll leave wikipedia in protest (no big loss). He is a fine, trenchant and knowledgeable editor as far as I can judge. I think his own complaint self-defensive, and in so far as it takes Jaakobou's absurd dossier seriously, a sign of a lack of confidence in arbitrators (mind you, perhaps he has good reasons to lack confidence there. If he like myself belongs to Jaakobou's scallawag brigade of trophy heads to be mounted on his Memorabilia Wall, and has his name constantly thrown up before administrators as a scoundrel, I understand his countermove. It's just that being lazy, I couldn't give, to use an old bushman's idiom, a proverbial rodent's rectum for wasting several hours, every time I am accused, in working up those dangfounded diffs to defend myself. I'd much prefer to edit, and protest only when some stray administrator takes Jaakobou's inquisition seriously. I'm quite open about my sympathies, use at times strong expressions, and have openly said that, while I'm very happy to embrace the new regime of editing rules, I will participate in the style that is natural for me. That of civilized dialogue which, even in the most urbane of classical rhetors, does not deny itself a natural outburst on occasion, of calling a spade an effen shovel. If administrators, seeing this clipped out, don't check, and fault me for it, I'll pay the penalty for my sincerity. Administrators should understand that in one of the most difficult areas to edit in Wikipedia, etiquette is fundamental, but an exasperated outburst or two should be neither here nor there, or a touch of soapboxing either. One needs that leeway, if one is to stay in here and work half one's time fighting a totally misguided warrior idea of patriotic editing, and not fake a voice that is all courtesy up front, and daggers underneath, in the editing manner of people one knows to be pronouncedly and dogmatically intent on inserting national biases into this encyclopedia. Jaakobou is intensely exasperating, and I have fought him to a standstill on his own ground every now and then. A huge waste of time, his mainly, because he is wasting years on putting in material that can be struck down anytime in ther future, near or far.

p.s. I hope more people come in. This is all quite entertaining. We all must look like tiddlers gasping at the bait Jaakobou has thrown to reel in, gugdeon after gudgeon, the notorious off-line school of a fishy pro-Palestinian cabal CAMERA talks of!!!!Nishidani (talk) 22:18, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

content related material - retracted - and discussions

Decided to remove content related complaints. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 20:58, 23 April 2008 (UTC) retracted. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 21:02, 23 April 2008 (UTC) added comment by Nishidani intended to PhilKnight. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 21:06, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Comment by Durova

Suggest refactoring the "yet again" out of this request title. Not sure what else to say here, so I'll be taking a tall glass of water plus a good meal and a good night's rest before posting on this matter again. Durova^Charge! 05:21, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Good point, much better now. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 11:12, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

I've spent the last couple of days hoping things would work out amicably, or at least that Eleland, Jaakobou, and a few others would agree to set aside their differences and collaborate. Looks like a more detailed statement is necessary so I'll say this in as few words as possible.

I'm not here to defend Jaakobou: I'm his mentor, not his advocate. I mentor him in policy and dispute resolution issues and have encouraged him to broaden his editing horizons. I've been able to help him hands-on in some of those broader areas, but I make no claim to expertise on the content side of the Israeli-Palestinian disputes. Jaakobou edits in a difficult area and he attempts to see that a controversial yet notable point of view is represented in the range of discussion. He brings sourced material to the discussion. As long as that participation satisfies the parameters of site guidelines and policies, that enriches articles. As far as I am able to see he usually does follow policy, and when he steps on the wrong side of it he accepts appropriate feedback and makes adjustments. I am not able to gauge the full depth of that on the content side, though.

To the best of my knowledge Jaakobou had nothing to do with the recent CAMERA fiasco; I take that issue quite seriously. Jaakobou seeks appropriate dispute resolution and works in good faith. When a recent mediation closed without success I consulted with the mediator, who assured me that Jaakobou's participation had not been the problem. Jaakobou sought me out as a sounding board seven months ago and never tried to leverage the relationship onsite (he hasn't asked me to post here, for example). When arbitration opened it was my idea to formalize the mentorship and announce it to the community, since he had already demonstrated his sincerity.

Jaakobou is the only editor I know of who went through an ethnic dispute arbitration case and contributed featured content after the case closed, who hadn't already been a featured content contributor beforehand. He was one of the people who raised Israel to FA, he did two image restorations that became featured pictures on subjects entirely unrelated to politics, and he started an article about an educational television show that made Wikipedia's main page in Template:Did you know. Yesterday he asked me to copyedit a second new article that he's preparing for DYK submission.

He isn't perfect. He comes to me whenever he's aware that something could become a problem. He doesn't always see those problems in advance and sometimes he gets frustrated. He's acutely aware of the grievances of people on his own side of the fence, less so of others. That could be said for the editors on both sides here. I understand he's sought a second mentor for the in-depth aspects of the content dispute. Durova^Charge! 08:48, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Small correction/clarification - I helped move Israel forward after it was already featured. Some two weeks of discussions where I was a major participant resulted in a completely new (and stable) 3rd paragraph. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 09:46, 28 April 2008 (UTC) minor add 09:47, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Fair enough Jaakobou. Now that we are talking about positive things you've done, could you please listen to what others think about your behavior and try to correct it? As an example, Durova has never kept memorabilia for people she disagrees with and this is something you may learn from your mentor. Other people would also learn how to not use innapropriate language under any circumstance. -- FayssalF - ^{Wiki me up®} 10:36, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

FayssalF,

I don't think Durova ever faced such intensity of continuous personal attacks and incivility from established editors (War criminal accusations, tag team reverts and insults, soapboxing). Regardless, I've removed it from my userpage and will avoid putting such things on display in the future.[7]

With respect, Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 13:59, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the gesture. In fact Durova is experienced enough to address and handle more than that. -- FayssalF - ^{Wiki me up®} 14:14, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Um...Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Durova, Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Durova. More happens offsite too. I don't talk about it much, but among other things I actually get death threats. Durova^Charge! 01:22, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

To address the collaboration note,

I have no problem with setting aside differences and collaborating with either of the four (Eleland, Nishidani, Pedro, Nickhh) and I've been able to collaborate reasonably enough with others despite some differences (ChrisO, Ryan Postlethwaite, JzG). However, my requests that they avoid personal remarks, edit warring and advocacy have been met with further personal remarks, edit warring and soapboxing.

Nickhh sample:

• "people have to spend way too much time as it is clearing up all the sh#t you leave lying around" Nickhh, 16:15, 11 April 2008
• "Let's try to raise our discourse, not lower it. I'd appreciate a refactor." Jaakobou 17:11, 11 April 2008
• "Dear Idiot" - Nickhh, 18:40, 24 April 2008

I remain hopeful that things will change but my attempts to resolve the situation through calm discussion and mediation, and without administrative action have been met with "open fire" resistance.

With respect, Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 14:01, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Again thanks but it seems that you forgot 'memorabilia2'. I hope all involved parties received well the message. No personal attacks, no bickering, no, no, no, no and certainly play within good faith. -- FayssalF - ^{Wiki me up®} 14:14, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

FayssalF,

What's wrong with memorabilia2 (now memorabilia 1) ?? Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 14:26, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

I've just got confused. My apologies. -- FayssalF - ^{Wiki me up®} 14:52, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

"my attempts to resolve the situation through calm discussion and mediation, and without administrative action have been met with "open fire" resistance" Uhm... Just as an example, on Avigdor Lieberman, can you give us an example of you using calm discussion and mediation and not just edit-warring? And no, signing obnoxious comments with "cordially" or "with respect" doesn't make things better. Cheers, pedrito - talk - 28.04.2008 14:09

Just a quick response to Jaakobou now dredging up a couple of my admittedly more inopportune comments (interesting as well how far this page has gone from the original complaint). The "clearing up .." comment is a) totally valid; and b) related to a totally bizarre refusal on Jaakobou's part to correct some simple and uncontroversial mistakes that he had edited into an article, despite a polite request (ie in response to disruptive editing). The "Dear Idiot" was a rather clumsy attempt to make a point about the new and rather patronising habit of starting all talk page comments on pages where I have been involved with a "Dear Nickhh", and was also in direct response to a comment he had made previously that simply missed every point I had put and was factually wrong. I'll happily strike that word. And Jaakobou, if you make one more accusation of "soapboxing" or "tag team editing" I'll file a case against you here, and present about 40 links to examples of personal abuse, false accusations, racist rants, WP:NPA & WP:CIV breaches --Nickhh (talk) 14:27, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Oh God, don't threaten to file a case Nickhh against User:Jaakobou. Any one of us could have written single-handedly a couple of FA wiki articles everytime we have been asked to waste days on these endless complaints our mutual friend raises. I thought the point of the exercise was to stop dossier-building, profiling, get us all to try to rein in even our occasional peccadillos (comparatively rare) of exasperated remonstration. Jaakobou is a past master of the art of petty incrimination (yes, that is my opinion and I haven't the time to rephrase it in terms that are politically or politely correct) and it is his perfect right to do so, according to Wiki rules. But if one is to get anywhere, one should (can I use a plural like 'we' without exciting suspicions of a cabal?) not be dragged down the same pettifogging road. Otherwise it will make Jardyce vs Jarndyce in Bleak House look like a brief barbeque in comparison Nishidani (talk) 15:10, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

I've gotten an idea today and I think I'll message the people who've been posting to this thread. Durova^Charge! 06:02, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

If you're interested and you see this and you didn't get a ping from me, please drop me a line. I'm trying to replicate something that built bridges for a different ethnic/national dispute. Durova^Charge! 06:37, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Comment by Tiamut

It is unfortunate that we are here at arbitration enforcement once again to discuss issues concerning, or raised by, Jaakobou. I have reviewed the comments in Jaakobou's evidence above. Even when taken out of context as they are, they do not, to my mind, constitute personal attacks, though they are somewhat ascerbic, likely due to the exasperation Jaakobou's editing style evokes in many editors in the I-P domain. While Jaakobou has made a number of solid contributions to featured photos outside of this domain, his contributions within the I-P topic range are often hindered by his strong POV and single-minded focus on inserting minority interpretations of controversial events in an undue fashion.

While Eleland has been previously blocked for civility issues, it is essential to recall that Jaakobou has received a final warning for using AE and a shopping block for ungrounded complaints [8]. In my opinion, there is nothing in Jaakobou's evidence (or in the two diffs provided by User:Ynhockey) that indicates that Eleland has again breached Wikipedia civility guidelines. Indeed, a comparing his comments pre-block and post-block, there is evidence that he has toned down his commentary, and I believe that he can and will do better in the future.

I do not envy the admins who have to deal with this problem and am quite sorry to see that it has not been resolved between the users involved. I must admit however, that I find Jaaakobou to be extremely difficult to deal with. Indeed, since our last run-in with one another, I have largely avoided editing at pages where he is involved. I might issue the same advice to others. However, the problem is that his edits are often problematic and do require the intervention of other editors to ensure that they are line with Wikipedia policies. Many of the people above have taken on that task, and while their comments often express exasperation, anyone who has worked with Jaakobou on an I-P article would understand from whence such comments come.

In conclusion, I don't think Jaakobou's ability to collaborate on I-P articles is going to improve any time soon. I think he should be prohibited from posting complaints targeting Eleland, Nickhh or Nishidani, since he seems to have an unhealthy interest in their talk page pecadillos that has little to do with bulding an encyclopedia. I reiterate my earlier suggestion that Jaakobou be placed on a short-term topic ban, so that he work in other areas of the encyclopedia where he can get a better idea of what NPOV and collaboration involved. Hopefully, he will return to I-P articles with a fresh perspective and less of a battleground approach. Tiamut^talk 11:12, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Reponse by Jaakobou

The following response was replaced by the one registered here:

• #Reworded response by Jaakobou

In order to focusing on the raised issue, a continuous problem of incivility and improper dispute resolution. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 16:51, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

User:Tiamut is a very involved and strongly opinionated editor who has (a) objected to basic Arabic translations and (b) reliable secondary sources, (c) suggested multiple disclaimers in the third paragraph (lede) of Israel and (d) called multiple other editors "gatekeepers" when they objected her perspective.

• "A google search of "one who is ready to sacrifice his life" and fedayeen... marvellous little bit of WP:OR" Tiamut, January 2008
  • See SAKHR Arabic Dictionary: Fedayeen - one who risks his life voluntarily , one who sacrifices himself
• rv: "editorializing from Freedman" - Tiamut, 31 March 2008
• "Within the Green Line... Israel can be described as... However..."
• "gatekeepers of this article"

On Palestinian fedayeen she repeatedly ignored my legitimate concerns, and only after 3rd opinions ([9], [10], [11]) showed signs of willingness to compromise.

• "Pyrospirit, Your reasoned explanation ...If Jaakobou agrees, I will place..." Tiamut, 15:45, 24 January 2008

I've taken a lot of verbal beatings from Tiamut, who supports the Palestinian "struggle against occupation" narrative, and believe her testimony regarding my ability to collaborate with others to be highly subjective. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 13:45, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The previous response was replaced by the one registered here:

• #Reworded response by Jaakobou

In order to focusing on the raised issue, a continuous problem of incivility and improper dispute resolution. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 16:51, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Nothing to do with content and POV... Can't you understand that everything we are discussing here deals with behavior and not POV stances because it seems clearly that you've never shared a single POV? Did Tiamut attacked you personally so we can warn her or block her if she persists? Does Tiamut have a 'memorabilia' section on you? Would you mind address my question above instead of talking about how other POVs are evil> subjectively not neutral and yours is helping wiki neutrality as you put it? -- FayssalF - ^{Wiki me up®} 14:02, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

"User:Tiamut is a very involved and strongly opinionated editor [...]." Oh, and you're what? Seriously, Jack, we've raised legitimate concerns here and elsewhere in countless discussions and you have not bothered to address a single one of them, preferring to reply with the kind of poinless ad hominem attacks such as the one above. pedrito - talk - 28.04.2008 13:53

Pedrito,

I don't think my comment that Tiamut's perspective of me is subjective to be "pointless". I request you notice what uninvolved admins have said above regarding incivility and also that you go over WP:BATTLE.

FayssalF,

I've removed that section and only noted that Tiamut's behavioral testimony was subjective. I don't know why you say that "it seems clearly that you've never shared a single POV". I don't believe this is accurate.

Anyways, to clarify, I don't think there's a reason to place any administrative sanctions on Tiamut for coming in defense of Eleland.

p.s. I request you retract the note that I was "talking about how other POVs are evil" since I did no such thing; I was only establishing that Tiamut's perspective on me is highly subjective.

With respect, Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 14:18, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

You see, Jack, this is exactly what I mean. There probably isn't a single piece of Wikipedia policy you have not asked me to "go over". Please tell me what parts of WP:BATTLE you think I infringed and how. Anything short of that is, I repeat myself here, pointless.

Oh, and while you're add it, in what way has my comment been uncivil? Again, please stick to specifics and not blanket accusations. Cheers, pedrito - talk - 28.04.2008 14:22

Hang on Jaakobou, what exactly are you trying to prove here with these diffs? All of them show, when you look into them, that Tiamut has behaved totally reasonably in each instance, even where there have been disagreements on content. I also find it disturbing that you will immediately dive in to challenge her post and accuse her of whatever you are exactly trying to accuse her of; but didn't react the same way to similar posts that I, Pedrito, Nishidani or indeed anyone else have had up here for a couple of days. Maybe passers by might want to take a punt on why that might be the case. --Nickhh (talk) 14:09, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Nickhh,

I did not want to distract from Eleland's incivility issue.

I hope that clarifies your question, Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 14:21, 28 April 2008 (UTC) fix 14:21, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Well no it doesn't explain at all why you launched into an attack on Tiamut (assuming you mean "answers" rather than "clarifies"), but never mind. --Nickhh (talk) 14:38, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing that out, Nickhh. I would like to ask that Jaakobou either provide evidence of the "verbal beatings" I have subjected him to, or strike that accusation from his response to my comment, since the diffs he appended fail to support that statement (Indeed, they seem to contradict it). I won't deny being "involved" or "opinionated" when it comes to I-P articles, but I try to follow NPOV in my editing, and last I checked, being involved and having opinions were not Wiki crimes. Tiamut^talk 14:57, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Reworded response by Jaakobou

User:Tiamut is very involved and difficult to work with:

• calling multiple other editors "gatekeepers of this article" when they object her perspectives.

I believe her testimony regarding my ability to collaborate with others to be highly subjective.

On point, minor incivility is not an issue and my ability to work with her (there's always room for improvement) has little to do with Eleland or his close company.

My personal attempts to achieve proper editing correspondence and dispute resolution with:

• Eleland - addressing Eleland.
• Nickhh - addressing Nickhh.
• Nishidani addressing Nishidani

Have not resulted in the proper decorum or editorial process as indicated by arbitration comittee. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 17:17, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Reply to Jaakobou's reply by Nishidani

Once more you have toned down your instinctive remarks by a cautious reedit to avoid trouble with administrators. Read Orwell's 1984, where everything is rewritten to suit the current line, itself subject to the caprices of necessity in the world of power. You really think User:Tiamut, as the prior comment showed, is a 'strongly opinionated editor' (she is intensely scrupulous and dedicated to dialogue. I feel sure you will find no one else in wiki, even other warrior posters, who would underwrite you judgement that she's 'capable of ignoring basic legitimate concerns of other editors'). Constantly modifying your stated views, moderating them to eliminate what is disturbing, and clean the page of indications of what you really think, is part of the problem. You have erased now the absurd remark:

A necessary starting point would be a real change in culture. (However, my attempts to achieve this without administrative intervention have all failed.'

I.e. everyone you come in conflict with in here, and indeed, in the Palestinian world or the Arab world at large, must change culture to accommodate themselves to your view of them and their racial-terroristic culture. I presumed this on reading your remark, taking it as an unconscious allusion to your professed conviction that the Arab's world has a terroristic culture dedicated to the racial elimination of Jews from Palestine (contextually, the implication is that culturally Tiamut, for one, has tendencies towards terrorism) a comment you quickly edited into relative innocuousness to cover your tracks). You haven't changed one whit, so the change you have tried to achieve isn't personal, it's basically something others must deal with by modifying their outlook in response to your recent habit of signing obtuse posts with 'cordially'. You have failed to change our way of thinking, and thus, explicitly ask administrators to assist you in this attempt to modify our 'culture' with its pro-Palestinian (hence pro-terrorist-racist) sympathies. Speed reading by time-pressed administrators may not pick up such innuendoes. But they are there. None of those you have recklessly and relentless hauled before the Wiki administration over the years for occasional exasperated slips of the tongue have ever said anything comparable to the explicit violence of prejudice this remark betrays. It copped you a mere 2-week rap. You deserved a couple of months suspension, at least, or site ban for 6 months to reflect deeply on the implications for wiki I/P articles of that worldview. So, at this point, I will withdraw and self-suspend myself for a month (?: administrators will not find me offended if they think my own self-set ban is far too short, and lengthen it), and punish myself for the infractions I have committed here in saying this and calling a spade a spade. That way, at least the Nishidani problem is solved, and administrators won't be required to waste their time on it. This last recourse of yours, forcing us to squabble over trivia, is making wiki a farce. What you fail to understand, young man, is that a hectoring ambition to be someone, camouflaged under warrior-editing to plunk a nationalist slant all over I/P articles, and put down the other party, is not the point of editing,. The strong sense other editors have is that most of our disputes with you reflects exasperation at your tenacious pushing of a nationalistic slant, and that this causes precisely the exasperation you then exploit to charge them with rule infractions. It would be subtle, were you also. A desire to make this collaborative encyclopedia a worthy and reliable neutral source for the world, and just not for perusers wandering in from CAMERA, is what all of those you accuse of bad faith aim for. Cordially, and pop the champagne cork. I've given you the victory you've wanted by flagrantly nviolating in full WP:CIVIL, because I really don't see on present form that your behaviour with its egregious insouciance to to wiki ideals of NPOV smack of civility in any normal understanding of the word. For details of my self-suspension see my page shortly. Nishidani (talk) 19:59, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

I did not re-edit to avoid problems with admins and I consider any analogy between my attempts to stick to the point of this thread and between Orwell's 1984 book to be just as cheep a shot as was your earlier tribute limerick. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 20:27, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Comment by Suicup

I am chiming in quite late in the piece, however I have had experience with the issues at hand. I agree with many of the points raised by Nishidani, Nickhh and others. I think the point being made is that while everyone is guilty of inflammatory comments, more often that not in my (and obviously others) experiences, these are made in a heated environment which is sparked by the actions of Jaakobou. Ultimately what needs to happen is that a special administrator needs to be appointed to I-P articles to enforce the rulings already made, and to stop these ridiculous wiki-lawyering wastes of time. IMO this huge political talk page fighting which is starting to consume WP in general, but especially the I-P articles, is driving away good editors and scaring new editors from having a go. I admit it is becoming disillusioning even for me. And this is due in no small part to the actions of Jaakobou. Suicup (talk) 07:12, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

back to the main point

I don't normally get involved here on this topic; FWIW, my actual personal opinion on the underlying political issues is very different from Jaakobou's. Nonetheless, I was asked by Jaakobou to have a look, and I think his original complaint deserves to be dealt with. Looking at the above discussion, i see J discusses the comments and edits, and his opponents discuss politics. Looking at the discussion page for AL, I notice J discusses primarily the edits, and his opponents discuss his motivations. The implication is obvious--regardless of what may have gone before, J's complaints have merit. eleland's edits and comments are marked by a personal animus that is altogether inappropriate; he may think as he pleases, but he cannot insult other editors. If bad editing has provoked him, he still needs to discuss the edits, not the editors. Under the terms of the arbcom decision, I would unhesitatingly give a block of about 7 days to prevent continuing impolite discussion. given the quick unblock previously, I'd like confirmation by another admin.

More generally, I agree that this won't solve this situation, & I propose another remedy to encourage civilized discussion: any mention by name or implication of other editors instead of edits on the talk page of any related article be subject to block after a first warning or alternatively by banning from all related articles. DGG (talk) 02:03, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

DGG, in the section where my comment is placed just above, can you point me to where Jaakobou discusses edits, rather than editors? His opening salvo in response to my comment is: User:Tiamut is a very involved and strongly opinionated editor who has (a) objected to basic Arabic translations and (b) reliable secondary sources, (c) suggested multiple disclaimers in the third paragraph (lede) of Israel and (d) called multiple other editors "gatekeepers" when they objected her perspective. That is followed by a series of diffs which present a selection of my encounters with Jaakobou on the talk page, not one of which provides evidence of bad faith editing, or of the "verbal beatings" which he claims to have taken from me in concluding his response to my comment above. Note that he did not retract that claim, despite my request that he do so if he has no evidence that supports it. As usual, Jaakobou can make baseless accusations that actually are personal attacks, while simultaneously claiming victimhood, and no one intervenes to do anything about it.

I agree that self-reflection on the part of all editors is required, and I do my best to live by that mantra. It seems to me, however, that Jaakobou always seem to get off with a slap on the wrist for things for which others have faced more serious consequences. Are the benefits of contacting multiple admins individually to intervene on his behalf, every time he is facing scrutiny, that effective? Should we all be canvassing for admin advocates too when faced with his litany of complaints? I do not mean to imply that your intervention here is made in bad faith. But you may not be aware that every time Jaakobou has been before this or any other dispute resolution forum, one admin or another, contacted by Jaakobou privately or outside of the forum discussion, has popped in to give their two cents in his support. (User:Number 57 wrote about his pattern of contacting admins offline to "sweet-talk" them in the Arbcomm evidence for the I-P case last year[12]. It's a tactic that is getting quite old really.)

You admit above that a week block against Eleland for civility will not solve anything. So why propose it? Sanctions are meant to preventative, not punitive. Are four diffs, selectively presented out of context and collected over the course of two months, and which point to comments that do not constitute personal attacks - but which can subjectively be seen as uncivil (or perhaps borderline soapboxing) - worthy of a week ban?

Jaakobou received a final warning here against using AE as a "weapon for block-shopping" [13]. That was a sanction designed to prevent the free-for-all and kicking up of bad faith and smoke and mirrors that we have seen unfold here. He did not heed that warning. Yet another slap on the wrist because he knows how to schmooze? How utterly disappointing. Tiamut^talk 05:56, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Civility related comment - I'm getting bit miffed at the "claiming victimhood" suggestions/commentaries. One, two, three "the old victim-strategy he employs" (Nishidani), ok. But now Tiamut also? PLEASE! consider WP:CIV and avoid using Israeli-Palestinian conflict terminology to describe user's personal traits.
Dear Tiamut,
The "gatekeepers" remark was insulting and also the way you ignored my legitimate concerns on Palestinian Fedayeen. However, my main concern is the civility issue, which is not a huge issue with you although suggestions that I'm a good schmoozer(?) and a Hollywood vicim typecast are not exactly a model of civility and could definitely be considered as a verbal abuse.
Thank you, (edit conflict/rephrase) Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 08:43, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry you were offended by my phrasing. But it's highly relevant that you while you claim to be offended by Eleland's incivility, you have no problem engaging in such behaviour yourself.

I'm sorry you were offended by the "gatekeepers" remark, but it was not directed towards you, and I never ignored your concerns at Palestinian fedayeen. Anyone who reviews the talk page archive there will see to what lengths I went to accomodate those concerns.

What I find offensive is how you continue to ignore my request that you retract you false accusation regarding the "verbal beatings" you claim I've dished out to you, and that you continue to seek sanctions against your fellow editors, rather than attempting to actually work out the issues that prevent a healthy and collaborative editing atmosphere to emerge. While Nishidani may be verbose, his contributions here are hardly "disruptive". Maybe you could spend less time trying to get other people into trouble, and more time actually editing content. If you find working with me and others difficult, perhaps you might try avoiding us. I've avoided you quite successfully for the last little while and without sacrificing my contributions to the project. Why not try that yourself? Tiamut^talk 08:36, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

I think your description is highly subjective and inaccurate. However, this is germane to the civility issue and I don't think this is the proper venue to explore this further.

On point, I'd be more than willing to retract all text relating to you if you were to accommodate me with the same courtesy.

With respect, Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 08:49, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Excuse me for saying so Jaakobou, but your response reveals a rather unfortunate unwillingness to make good faith gestures that would indicate to your fellow editors that you are sincere about building a healthy editing relationship. I apologized to you twice above for the statements I made that you took issue with. Instead of acknowledging that, and reciprocating by, for example, doing what I have asked of you mutliple times here already, you instead insist that I strike out all my comments here first? Do you really think that signing off With respect is congruous with such a petty approach? Tiamut^talk 08:59, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Tiamut,

It is highly uncivil to demand good faith gestures while offering non in response ("I'm sorry... But..." is not much of a gesture). Regardless, I've presented a rephrased response; and I wouldn't mind (with your consent) to archive the entire thread of the first response. If you want, I'm also willing to archive the entire comment by Tiamut thread.

With respect, (what's wrong with this ending?) Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 09:46, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

If you simply withdrew the suit, as a gesture of good faith, you would gain far more points with everyone than you might ever obtain for yourself in pursuing it. That is the obvious thing to do, would honour yourself, and make the rest of 'us' take a second look at our own behaviour. Gestures like that are what mark leaders off from the rest. Think about it.Nishidani (talk) 09:51, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Nishidani,

It is highly uncivil to demand as though I'm an aggressor who's supposed to apologize as a gesture to allow other adult wikipedians avoid embarrassment so they can start examining their own behavior, something which should have started a long time ago. I've made a suggestion to Tiamut and she can either take up on it or not. Please spare me the uncivil "honor" mind games and also please stop clogging this thread; 7500 words is more than enough. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 10:08, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Look, I've spent several decades of a life using the English language professionally, and you are misreading it here and elsewhere so consistently, that I have to comment. A gentle suggestion is not a demand. To raise a suggestion is not 'uncivil'. I suggested Eleland refrain from his countersuit, I asked Nickhh not to. I now ask you to consider the same. I have never laid a formal complaint in these arbitration venues, despite some very heavy insinuations from you and several others that I am a bigot, antisemite, or pusher of an antisemitic point of view, charges laid against me because I cite a lot of scholarly books by Jewish thinkers under whose creative influence I'm proud to say I was raised. I have only been strongly tempted to complain formally when you insulted a woman, call me oldfashioned, if you like: and declared that an ostensible 'Islam-inspired cultural structure of the Arab world is the main cause of the Arab-Palestinian 91 year racist terror campaign against the Jewish-Palestinians.' (That statement, in my book, technically meant you lack the equanimity and indeed the knowledge to edit here - it is lightyears away from what serious scholarship by Israeli and Jewish scholars of distinction says about that troubled area's history. It is very close to admitting you edit within a framework of fundamentalist belief that mirrors, against Arabs, that antisemitism which is the central blight of Western civilisation. I say that cautiously, because you reveal a conviction that ontologicallythe culture of all Arab people predisposes them to terrorize an innocent people, and this is precisely the kind of mindset (switch 'Jew' for 'Arab', and 'culture' for 'race') behind that antisemitism in Western civilisation which wrought such violence to the Jewish people. Tiamut is a Palestinian of Arabic cultural background, the implication was obvious, and your repeating even here a frivolously-grounded attack on her does not give much evidence of your having taken to heart Durova's advice).

I did not imply you were the aggressor in that remark. I did not use the phrase, but in English, what I was prompting you to consider is called 'noblesse oblige', noble ancestry (culturally) entails an honour code which is sensitive to responsibilities. To ask one to take the route that honour dictates is to trust that this precious sentiment is alive in him, and therefore honour him by the expectation. An obligation we all have here is to pull back before things precipitate. We have seen that all too often in the past. Earlier, to satisfy what appeared to me a need for a 'win', I suggested myself as a substitute victim; here I suggested you win by a different strategy. I know you want to win something, and the rational solution, as suggested, has been staring me at least in the face for a long time. Therefore I suggested calling off your suit of complaint. I note now Pedrito is now registering a complaint, as the original cancer of complaint metastasizes. Many of us could register complaints. The only way out of this endless exasperation of administrators' time and patience is to make a noble gesture. That is Jaakobou, not some cynical machiavellian put-down cunnily contrived to make you look 'infantile'. To the contrary, it would make us look rather silly, and you manly. That you can't see this worries me, but I blame myself. Perhaps you tire of my 'clogging' prose. I hope you will reconsider still. Nishidani (talk) 11:34, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Nishidani,
I've already retracted, apologized, received administrative action and avoided repetition of past offenses but here is your chance "to make a noble gesture":

• "He has a huge talent for pleading victimhood, while editing in often shonky material with relentless energy."
  "Jaakobou (the old victim-strategy he employs)" Nishidani 14:15, 26 April 2008

There's a few others, but I don't think it's germane to the "Ha, ha. I figured that was Jaakobou or something" Eleland's civility issue. With respect, Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 12:43, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

You compiled a dossier against me for an eventual administrative action to have me suspended for 7 days. You laid it on User:PhilKnight's page. It contains more or less the same shonky florilegium of bits and pieces ushered in here to convict Eleland of injurious behaviour. Nota bene. I took no counter-administrative appeal, registered that I was not told you were doing this behind my back, but stumbled on it by accident. Made a short (thank God! sighs all round) set of remarks in defence and declared I would ignore your complaint, and left it to the administrator to judge. Knowing that you have a similar complaint against me (and several others) of the kind you have registered in here against Eleland, I defended him as I would not defend myself, and I offered you a 'deal' which would leave you a winner. Let Jaakobou wear my scalp, I suggested. I am as guilty (or innocent) as Eleland. I.e. in this ornate chessmatch where we are all pieces on the board, I offered a sacrifice to let you win a great positional advantage. It may not be 'noble', but just a sly move to promote myself. It may just be, nonetheless, a 'paternal' (what presumption!!) gesture by someone who appears to have some decades of experience of the world more than the others, and not of wikiality, to hint at the need for some ethical self-restraint, moral toughness, strong nerves, and intelligent insouciance to pettifogging if we are to get on and improve these articles, which are still in a shocking mess. Sometimes ethics, (I know you hate me using that word as well), as distinct from customary morality, defines its nobility by forsaking the covert bartering in most moral exchanges. I.e. one does something for an intrinsic good, renouncing the profitable do ut des groundrules of otherwise fine human gestures. Think about it. You have everything to gain, and lose nothing thereby.Nishidani (talk) 13:39, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

User:DGG. I'll be as brief as possible. I haven't discussed only J's politics. I pointed out that if I were to share his outlook, that one prepare in stealth minute dossiers on every shade of language he takes as offensive to him personally, shares them with selected administrators, all in order to get an adversary hauled over the coals, then, by the same token, he, despite his extreme care to be formally polite, but textually unrelenting in a one-sided POV, would fall under the same sanctions. I showed above that I could well have complained, and this is just one instane of many, about his depiction of me as a bigot who brands an Israeli community as racist and criminal, who indeed thinks all Israeli/Jewish editors suspect, thinks all Israelis criminal, uses borderline (slightly mad) antisemitic sources, and in defending myself against your verbal innuendoes engages in bogus disclaimers, and, vilely, debates the merits of anti-Zionist sources. He never denied this, since he is, apparently, too focused on Eleland's remarks to notice his own. I, like many others in here, have not endeavoured to 'nail' him, and this restraint is now made to appear, paradoxically, like a tag-team victimization of the plaintiff. If others went after him as he does with them, this place would be a shambles. I'm thickskinned and don't complain: he, apparently, isn't, and does. There is a vast literature, from Nietzsche to Max Scheler on ressentiment, and I think everyone should browse it. I won't do more than allude to it. Nothing Jaakobou attributes to Eleland could not be, by selective review, laid against him for similar sanctions. Eleland alone was tempted to lay a case, which the rest of 'us' refrained from assisting, out of exasperation with this personalistic pettifogging. Ban us all as nuisances for a week, or give, by all means a strong last warning to one and all to reflect deeply, and honour the encyclopedia's aims, rather than waste time on trivial personal bickerings, and petty point-scoring. To do otherwise would be to punish Eleland because Jaakobou complained, and exculpate Jaakobou at the same time, awarding him a symbolic victory, because no one else here has registered a complaint, though they have abundant evidence (as per above, just a small sampling). From the evidence here one would never gather that working on I/P articles since the new rules have been in place, has been much improved, the shouting matches much reduced (the scanty evidence here underlines this) and this case, if taken seriously, threatens to open another huge concatenation of vendetta politicking before admins that no one surely wants. Regards Nishidani (talk) 13:37, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

I was not proposing to punish Eleland, I'm proposing to stop him using such comments. But you have a good idea here. I would be open to withdrawing the suggestion of a block at this time, if there were any sign that people were willing to live and let live. But the above comments, and the opening of a second AE case just above, do not sound like this is the case. I revise however my additional suggestion in favor of something more specific. Let's everyone refrain from comments about editor's politics and the possible political motivations of their edits from this day forward. If we can get that far it will be a start DGG (talk) 11:47, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

I for one warmly appreciate and commend this suggestion. This has dragged on far too long, and should be a warning to all parties. I apologize to administrators for my own loose-mouthed tolutiloquence, but with the reminder that I have argued hard to keep the administrative board free of tediously petty challenges that grown men should sort out among themselves on the page. Best regards Nishidani (talk) 13:45, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Block-shopping

• Jaakobou (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

User:Jaakobou had been warned by User:Future Perfect at Sunrise here:

"Final warning given to Jaakobou for trying to use WP:AE as a weapon for block-shopping. This flood of reports is getting out of hand."

Which he violated by opening the thread bleow, Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Arbitration enforcement#Eleland issues persist and by contacting other admins on- and off-site (i.e. here, here and whatever resulted in this). Not content with attacking User:Eleland, he uses the same thread to lash-out at User:Tiamut and User:Nickhh.

Summary: User:Jaakobou has been warned about block-shopping and has done it again anyway. I suggest the admin who gave the final warning follow-through with whatever sanctions he/she had in mind.

Cheers, pedrito - talk - 29.04.2008 06:26

Given everything in the discussion below, I think that opening a second request here at this point will only make the situation more difficult. You're doing even more clearly just what you complain of. This is not going to help solve the problem. DGG (talk) 12:52, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm afraid I have to agree that this is an inappropriate venue for pursuing what is an entirely appropriate request. Can an admin close this thread, or maybe move it into a subsection of the thread below? <eleland/talkedits> 13:47, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I just wanted to point out that User:Jaakobou had been firmly warned against doing what he has done, exactly, below. As opposed to him, I have not been warned not to block-shop and have not gone admin-shopping either, so please don't imply I'm doing the same. I also don't really see how asking for consequences (final warning, remember?) makes the situation "more difficult". I will, however, move the thread to the discussion farther below. Cheers, pedrito - talk - 29.04.2008 14:34

Reconsider Pedrito. I'm asking Jaakobou to take a step that is evidently extremely difficult for him, one which effectively asks him to withdraw from precisely the action which, on good technical grounds, you adduce to get him under one more administrative review. From his angle, I probably appear to be helping Eleland. Eleland (and perhaps yourself) might well read my work as helping Jaakobou, since by withdrawing, he would not face the charge you lay against him. From my own perspective, I've probably annoyed everyone. 'La razón se pierde razonando’, as Antonio Porchia once wrote. I think administrators must be empathising with Graham Green's description of Wilson: ‘He was a good listener. His brain was like a sieve through which the rubbish fell all day’. G Green, The Heart of the Matter, p.62, and would appreciate a reduction in this kind of casework, if all of us underwrite User:DGG's remarks. Regards, and Jaakobou, over to you. Nishidani (talk) 14:39, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Nishidani, I really, really want to believe that User:Jaakobou will change his ways on his own. However, we have been lenient, diplomatic and even pedagogical with him time and again, and every time he takes a step back -- as you are asking him to do now -- he compensates it with leaps and bounds in the wrong direction as soon as he thinks nobody is looking. I tend to see this in more pragmatic terms and prefer to quote Benjamin Franklin (if it was really him who said so):

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

There is a simple solution to the problem at hand: impose sanctions on User:Jaakobou. The only lesson he has taken from any of these excursions to WP:AN/I or WP:AE is that he can basically get away with anything unscathed. You know, maybe if at least once an admin made good on a threat or a warning, or even on common policy, User:Jaakobou would learn where the line in the sand lies and move on to being a more productive editor?

Cheers, pedrito - talk - 29.04.2008 14:48

Comment by AzaToth

I can see a problem here that the parties are commenting on the editors, and thus infecting incivility. As I can see it, there is a lack of assumption of good faith from all parties, and that needs to be addressed. I recommend forced mediation for all parties and place them om incivility parole (i.e. any admin can block them without warning for uncivil statements). _→AzaToth 15:27, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

good idea, but the arb com already did it. [14] DGG (talk) 15:50, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

The I/P pages require extensive, indeed often huge, argument, often superbly civil, on the most minute points, which most parties often think absurdly stressful. I could cite many pages however where editors of long experience, editing administrators included, challenge each other with words as strong as 'ludicrous' and no one is offended, and suits at ANI do not arise. The endless recourse to WP:CIVIL WP:AGF doesn't quite function: even more sanctions will so neuter editorial freedom to reason that many will drop out altogether, as so many good editors seem already to have done. I know administrators qua administrators cannot rule on content. They might as editors use their authority to nudge incipient disagreements of little merit towards commonsense. Rather than however face endless complaints in here, why not have every difficult page monitored daily by an administrator, one per page? It would ease administrative review here, be light on individual administrators, and commend all editors to be more careful, with a guardian angel looking over the page, and above all, prompt them not to engage in factitious pushing of an impossible position (on this I admit prejudice. 160 odd sources over several weeks to show the word 'uprising' is normal English for an event like an 'intifada' at Al Aqsa Intifada, arising in response to strong convictions to the contrary from one or two editors whose respect of WP:AGF and WP:CIVIL is pitch-perfect, still lies without a resolution in sight. Things like this, a nightmare conducted in perfect urbanity, could have been avoided if one administrator, participating as editor, asked for proof why the O.E.D. and all academic sources got it wrong). No doubt the other side has similar complaints for other issues. The content resolution process is far too long and involved. Regards Nishidani (talk) 17:20, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

offtopic length of comments - retracted

Retracted a generic question unrelated to the civility issue raised. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 08:32, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

(offtopic) Is it just me, or does anyone else find Nishidani's 7000 words on this thread disruptive also? It's a bit of a prolonging issue (sample). Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 08:29, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Grandmaster

Arbcom cases: Armenia-Azerbaijan and *Armenia-Azerbaijan 2' .

• Grandmaster (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Only days after his AA1 1RR limitation expired and even after promising that he would stick to 1RR, Grandmaster is back at edit warring. He has been re-adding the Azeri language template to the Nakhchivan khanate article that doesn't belong there since April 6th. The template doesn't belong there because that language didn't exist at the time. The only appropriate template would be the Persian/Arabic script that was used at the time. Since his first revert on April 6th he has reverted the article 5 times the last two came yesterday. He first reverted an IP address claiming him to be a banned user[15]. Then reverted me claiming that the first revert was to a banned user[16].

I would like to note that he is yet to provide the sources I requested almost a month ago[17], instead his gaming the system and edit warring. VartanM (talk) 07:18, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Another frivolous report by VartanM. As I was explained by the arbitration clerk, reverting edits by banned users is not counted toward any parole limitation: [18] The first rv was fixing an obvious vandalism, it deleted info from the article and attacked the admin who reverted previous deletion of info: [19] The IP 149.68.165.134 (talk · contribs) is very similar to the IPs 149.68.165.88 (talk · contribs) and 149.68.31.146 (talk · contribs), which are proven socks of banned User:Azad chai, and it made the reverts identical to those by the banned user. Basically that vandal goes around and deletes Azerbaijani spellings from region related articles for no apparent reason. I believe anyone can compare those IPs and make his own judgment as to whether or not it is the same person. Once the vandalism by the banned user was reverted, VartanM continued edit war started by the banned user, failing to explain why the Azerbaijani spelling needed to be deleted from the article. VartanM has not demonstrated any wiki rule that does not allow inclusion of Azerbaijani spellings into the articles. So I only made 1 rv of deletion of info by VartanM in support of the banned user. This is not is not violation of my parole, which is not in force anymore but which I agreed to observe voluntarily. I don’t think reporting for reverting obvious vandalism by banned user is anything other than an attempt to get rid of an opponent. Grandmaster (talk) 07:48, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Also, please note that VartanM himself reverted the article in question 3 times during the same period (i.e. since 7 April, when anon vandals started attacking this article), but unlike me he was not reverting the banned user. And I did not make 5 rvs like VartanM claims, just 4, of which 2 were vandalism by the banned user, so I stayed perfectly within my former revert limit and in fact made less reverts than the person who reports me. In addition, I discussed the issue in much detail on talk, but VartanM failed to provide any valid reason for deletion of Azerbaijani spelling, and chose instead to join the banned user in edit warring. Also note that since beginning of April a number of articles got semi-protected because of activity of the same anon vandals, among them Caucasian Albania, Erivan khanate, Shusha, Yerevan, Kirovabad pogrom, and others, but anons keep on edit warring, and some established users help them. Grandmaster (talk) 09:37, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

The fact that deserves the attention is coordinated activity of VartanM and the banned user Azad chai, who hides behind multiple anon IPs. Those 2 revert in support of each other, and it appears to be an attempt to bait other users and then report them. I would be glad to be wrong on this, but facts speak for themselves. See how many times IPs in that range and VartanM reverted in support of each other on various articles, is it just a coincidence, considering the above report? And who is really gaming the system? Grandmaster (talk) 08:15, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

In the meantime the sock activity on Nakhchivan khanate continues: [20] An admin just blocked another IP in 149.68... range for block evasion: [21] Grandmaster (talk) 15:22, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

It seems as though VartanM has a green light to harass people - [22] and [23], falsely associate identities for intimidation [24] and even accuse the reporter of fundamental WP:HARASS violation of "forum shopping" with support of obviously non-neutral administrator, edit war (see AA ArbCom 2), waste time in WP:AE endlessly, coordinate with socks, respond to every single report on every single board in attempt to yield it unreadable, and yet remain unrestricted for all these violations. One wonders why would VartanM seek to report someone on AE, which he himself has pretty much proved to be ineffective if not useless. Atabek (talk) 16:08, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

And here is how disregard to behavior such as that of VartanM, Fedayee against myself, User:Ehud Lesar and User:AdilBaguirov impact the community [25]. Perhaps, it's time to pay attention and explain disruptive nationalist POV pushing editors, that they should concentrate on topics rather than on identity of editors. Atabek (talk) 17:04, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Tachyonbursts

Arbcom case: Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/September 11 conspiracy theories

Justallofthem

The following discussion is an archived report. Please do not modify it. Subsequent reports should be made in a new section.

I see no reason to suspect that Durova or Cirt is a reincarnation of Anynobody, so there is nothing related to the case discussed here. I do not think it is within remit of the case to extend the sanction on Anynobody against harassing Justa... to Durova since s/he is not the same editor. Durova and Justa... are encouraged to engage in dispute resolution, with special emphasis on not commenting on one another. GRBerry 13:52, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

---

Rather than let this devolve into an RFC or a new RFAR, I'll just bring this here because it follows up on Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/COFS. Requesting review of actions of Justallofthem and myself, with regard to the case's discretionary sanctions.

Justallofthem was a named party to that arbitration on his previous account, Justanother. I was not involved in the underlying dispute but named myself as a party procedurally when I opened the RFAR. Justallofthem posted to Wikipedia:Featured_article_candidates/Getting_It:_The_psychology_of_est today; it is the only FAC where he has participated in at least the last four months. This appeared to me to be a continuation of his wikistalking campaign against Cirt, and an uninvolved editor had already commented twice about Justa's inadequate rationale, so I posted a brief an neutral statement with a link to an AN thread from late March. The linked thread contained a discussion from late March where Justa was nearly sitebanned for wikistalking Cirt and other policy violations, including checkuser-confirmed block evasion, multiple sockpuppetry, and repeated personal attacks. Justa's response accused me of repetitious and meddlesome attempts at character assassination.

I posted a brief and neutral retraction request at his talk page.[34] He replied at my user talk, with what I considered to be a series of unsubstantiated accusations of misconduct. The thread got this far before I blanked it. Justa refused to honor my request to end the conversation, continuing to post afterward.[35][36]

I would have been glad to let this little episode pass without a noticeboard thread, but SirFozzie--an administrator I respect--suggested conduct RFC or arbitration,[37] and Justa agreed.[38] This actually follows up on a closed case, so taking this here seems like the path of minimum drama. To the reviewing admin: please contact me privately regarding part of the relevance to the arbitration case; the Foundation privacy policy constrains me from explaining a couple of things onsite. If there was anything inappropriate in my actions I welcome correction. Likewise, it appears from my perspective that Justa's unblocking admin is exercising insufficient mentorship and there is very little positive work in Justa's last several months of contribution to offset the ongoing problem. Durova^Charge! 03:44, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

I was not aware of the previous issues, and first of all, I'd like to apologize for relighting a fuse. My "suggestion" was more on the lines of trying to say politely that I thought he was in the wrong on this and that he should let it drop, agree to disagree, etcetera. I do agree with Durova that Justallofthem was striding very close to (if not over the line) of personal attacks and inappropriate levels of WP:STALK. SirFozzie (talk) 03:56, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

I would be very glad to withdraw this AE request if Justa agrees to drop his grievance. Durova^Charge! 03:58, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

"Are you sure this is the page you are looking for?"

Perhaps you'd like to withdraw it anyway, Durova? I'm having a little trouble understanding why you post on this page, in stark contravention of the page instructions:

"This page only involves violations of final ArbCom decisions. It is not for re-opening the dispute, or arguing about any ongoing dispute, but purely to compare a user's actions to any ruling that may apply to them, and enforcing a suitable remedy if there is a breach."

Was there any ruling that applied to JA in the COFS case?[39] Well...there was this one, yes: JA was "urged to avoid interesting himself in Anynobody's actions." An interest in Anynobody's actions is not your complaint. Why are you taking your dispute to AE? Note that "this page is not part of dipute resolution." The mediation that JA pleads with you to accept, on the other hand, is part of dispute resolution. ([40] (note Durova's edit summary) Wouldn't mediation be a better way of avoiding having this spat "devolve into an RFC or a new RFAR"? Considering you would even "have been glad to let this little episode pass without a noticeboard thread".. if it hadn't been for Sir Fozzie.. Come on, now. Bishonen | talk 10:55, 6 May 2008 (UTC).

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Eupator

Arbcom case: AA 1 or 2, or maybe just general sanctions.

Eyrian on an IPs?

• 65.11.23.219 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• 71.9.8.150 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• 72.151.55.27 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/JohnEMcClure confirmed that Eyrian, who participated aggresively in AfDs and last edited in October 2007 and who was subsequently blocked per Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Eyrian, made "numerous IP edits". Notice this IP's edit history that follows seems to focus on certain kinds of articles. Now today, notice this edit in which the IP writes, "It's been awhile since I've seen an ipc article nominated", but if you look again at the edit history of the IP, there are NO previous edits to any IPC articles, which thus makes that statement odd and as if it is from someone who either edits using different IPs or who is an old user. Sincerely, --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles^Tally-ho! 18:37, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

• There are many editors who are AFD regulars (this IP certainly is if it is a stable IP) and care about IPC, fancruft, trivia, episodes, and the like. Any specific reason you think this is Eyrian as opposed to someone else? And do you really think the closing admins are going to pay any attention to IP comments that don't make new arguments? I don't think the admins will. GRBerry 18:57, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
  • I think Eyrian, because the IP's edits start around the time that Eyrian stopped editing from his Eyrian account (in October 2007) and started using different accounts and IPs. I suppose one of the arbitration committee checkusers could check the IP to see (I'm not sure if they could go back far enough to check if it's Eyrian, but if it is someone also using additional current accounts or IPs, those might show up). Best, --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles^Tally-ho! 18:58, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
    • Two possibilities. 1) This isn't Eyrian - obviously, we shouldn't do anything then, but it would be helpful to point out to the editor that commenting in an AFD using an IP results in minimal weight and the user might consider using an account. 2) This is Eyrian - then he can readily evade by going to a different IP (proxy, resetting a router, going to a different coffee shop, et cetera...). Either way, I don't see much to gain by blocking an IP. So far as I can see, since the case close identified or even suspected any puppets or IP addresses of Eyrian that were still in use at the time suspected, so I don't know what would happen if we tagged as a suspected puppet. Definitely try the user's talk page for a discussion. Consider tagging with {{sockpuppet}} and watching; if the IP editor vanishes then that will be confirmation of a sort, but indicate that an unending game of whack-a-mole is forthcoming. GRBerry 19:22, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
      • I sent an email to Morven who was the checkuser on the Eyrian case just in case if the IPs identified at Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/JohnEMcClure, which were not listed there, were not tagged. Also, I see at top of this page that we should notify the user. Is there a template for this page similar to the ANI notification template that could be placed on the IPs talk page? Best, --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles^Tally-ho! 19:47, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
        • Not that I'm aware of. Write a message, with attention to the third paragraph of the "Enforcement" section above. "A discussion about you is underway at [[section link]] might suffice." GRBerry 20:26, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
          • Another IP that looks somewhat similarly suspicious is this one. Also another IP in the 7 range has just posted a similar edit to that other one. Best, --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles^Tally-ho! 16:03, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

The IPs are unlikely to be related. They all originate from home internet providers. Two originate from the same provider, but different regions. The other originates from a different provider. Vassyana (talk) 06:54, 13 May 2008 (UTC) I am not a checkuser.

Is it possible for a checkuser to see who the one IP is that claims to have not seen an IPC AfD in a while and yet the IP has no edits to IPC AfDs? Do the checkusers still have the information on Eyrian to see if it's likely or if in fact it is actually a current user possibly using IPs as socks? Sincerely, --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles^Tally-ho! 01:32, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Eusebeus still edit-warring over TV episode articles

On April 19, Jac16888 initiated an AE thread concerning Eusebeus, saying Eusebeus "has begun blindly restoring redirects." That thread was closed April 23 by GRBerry with no action taken. Since then, Eusebeus has continued to edit war over Scrubs episode articles like My Best Friend's Mistake [54] [55] [56], My Mentor [57] [58] [59], and My Princess [60] [61] [62]. I believe that's a violation of the ArbCom remedy where "The parties are instructed to cease engaging in editorial conflict and to work collaboratively to develop a generally accepted and applicable approach to the articles in question. They are warned that the Committee will look very unfavorably on anyone attempting to further spread or inflame this dispute." and the also the Principle that "Edit-warring, whether by reversion or otherwise, is prohibited" and the Principle that "It is inappropriate to use repetition or volume in order to present opponents with a fait accompli or to exhaust their ability to contest the change. This applies to many editors making a few edits each, as well as a few editors making many edits." As far as I know, no other involved party of E&C2 has been edit-warring with Eusebeus on those articles, and restrictions were not imposed on Eusebeus in particular — so I could understand if no action is taken yet again. However, if that's the case, I think an amendment of the remedies of the E&C2 arbitration case may be in order. Any input would be appreciated. --Pixelface (talk) 05:08, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

You don't think that maintaining the status quo, and neither undoing existing redirects nor creating new ones is the appropriate thing to do? You may well consider that They are warned that the Committee will look very unfavorably on anyone attempting to further spread or inflame this dispute is a sword whose edge may well be directed at you. Kww (talk) 05:19, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Edit-warring is never the right thing to do. Catchpole (talk) 05:28, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

And may be symptomatic of the person's abiity (or lack thereof) to negotiate with others in an ongoing basis. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 05:33, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

• Eusebeus and I have since reached something of an agreement over the scrubs articles, at least in the sense that we have both come to the conclusion that an article can stay if it shows some possibility of being more than a plot and music list, as has happened with My Princess, which you neglected to mention does still have an article, with Eusebeus's consent. The two of us have managed to establish a common ground over editing styles. While we both have very different viewpoints, neither of which are likely to change, we've still agreed to work together, the first time I've seen that happen in this "conflict". It would be nice if maybe a few other editors, from both so-called "sides", had a go at this. There's no reason both "sides" can't be more civil in this, if we keep sniping at each other its just going to go on for ever.--Jac16888 (talk) 05:36, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
• I agree with Jac's comment above and say that, despite our earlier differences, we will be trying (I hope) to chart a way forward with respect to Scrubs. I cannot help but wonder if this is a singularly ill-advised vendetta based on my earlier filing at A/N in which I singled out certain behavioural patterns which, I see, are being repeated. Eusebeus (talk) 05:47, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

True that. I find some folks eminently agreeable once moving away from the festering sore of TV episodes - and Eusebeus has done some much-needed translating work for which I am grateful, as well as some streling copyediting advice on Dirty Dancing. We are in desperate need of more skilled at prose and it would be great to see more efforts in these areas. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 05:50, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

How does your continued edit-warring over Scrubs episode articles mean I have a "vendetta" against you? Jac16888 says you two have reached something of an agreement, but you've also dragged Alaskan assassin into this. You keep spreading the dispute. On Talk:List of Scrubs episodes, Oren0 supported un-redirecting the articles and Colonel Warden also supported the reversion of the redirects. Is edit-warring how you plan to "chart a way forward"? --Pixelface (talk) 07:24, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Far more editors spoke in favor of keeping the redirects, and the whole situation has been stable for a week. Are you worried that the problem might go away unless you keep reporting it on noticeboards?Kww (talk) 12:34, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

• could we maybe pause all this for a few days?, i have exams this week.--Jac16888 (talk) 06:04, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

  Good luck....Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 07:13, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

I would like to point out that I really can't see a motive for this report other than enflaming an already unpleasant situation. This report documents events that are

1. Over a week old
2. Already settled by discussion between Eusebeus and Jac16888 on their talk page
3. Already settled by a parallel discussion between me and Alaskan Assassin on my talk page? [63][64]

What's the purpose of bringing it to AE now?Kww (talk) 12:27, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

The parties were told to cease engaging in editorial conflict. That's why I filed the report. And frankly I was unaware of the discussion at User talk:Alaskan assassin or User talk:Kww. Alaskan assassin said "gotcha" and you say it's settled? And correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't these two reverts[65] [66] occur after this was supposedly "settled"? --Pixelface (talk) 13:26, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

"Gotcha" followed by his actions (he ceased undoing redirects) seems to be agreement to me. As for the other two edits, they are a week old, and the undoing of the redirect was by an anonymous IP ... really hard to come to agreements or terms with anonymous editors.Kww (talk) 13:49, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

So "editorial conflict" is okay as long as it's against anonymous IPs? --Pixelface (talk) 14:04, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

I am somewhat concerned about other unconstructive behavior with regards to the editor under question.

• Notice as well, assuming bad faith: [67], [68], [69], [70], [71]
• Incivility: [72], [73], [74], [75], [76], [77], [78], [79]
• Dramatizing: [80], [81], [82], [83], [84]
• Use of obscenity/curse/swear words in edit summary: [85], [86]
• Also, not signing post.
• Finally, I'm not sure if the calling me "Pumpkin" rather than LGRdC or Roi is mocking: [87], [88]

Please also consider DGG's comment regarding Eusebeus' incivility and how Eusebeus ignoed DGG's warning and brushed off BrownHairedGirl's later warning on his talk page and even edited her post. Sincerely, --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles^Tally-ho! 16:15, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

• To make the obvious point, none of this is germane to the question at hand, which is my supposed disruptive editing over Scrubs episodes. This is Arbitration Enforcement. As you seem eager, however, to bring up this litany of my abuse at every venue, may I suggest three doors down on the left you will find WP:RFC, which you may find highly suitable to your needs? It is a fairly straightforward matter to launch a user RfC. Eusebeus (talk) 18:43, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
  • It is relevant here, because the arbitrators encouraged editors to work constructively and to not inflame the situation. Many of these instances cited above do not demonstrate efforts to work constructively, but do show evidence of making things worse. I disagree with plenty of editors, but I do not devolve into hyperbole or toss blatant insults at them. I just hope that you could show similar courtesy to those with whom you disagree, but if you are unwilling to do so, then I hope someone else can persuade/convince you. I always hold out the hope that all of us can "get along" somehow or other. The attacks and anger is just not necessary. Sincerely, --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles^Tally-ho! 19:46, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

User:Pete K

What is that highly credible evidence, please? It has not been reported here.DianaW (talk) 00:42, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

MarshallBagramyan

MarshallBagramyan (talk · contribs) is involved in edit warring in Nagorno-Karabakh related articles, which is the area covered by the arbcom cases Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Armenia-Azerbaijan and Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Armenia-Azerbaijan 2. He fails to cite any reliable sources to support his claims and resorts to edit warring to keep the nationalist Armenian source that he uses as his sole reference in the article. While the rv parole me and other users were placed on a year ago has expired, I voluntarily agreed to stick to it, and the admins recommended other users editing the arbcom ruling covered area do the same. [92] However MarshallBagramyan made 2 rvs on Lachin within the last 2 days, in contrast to what the admins recommend: [93] [94] In a situation when everyone else voluntarily sticks to 1RR, such behavior is nothing but baiting others to violate the parole and disruption, and in my opinion this user should be placed on the same editing restrictions as others. I see no reason why anyone should be able to make more than 1 rv per week in this topic area anyway, some people are clearly gaming the system. Grandmaster (talk) 05:17, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

MarshallBagramyan warned,[95] as per ArbCom remedy. If the user persist after this warning, please post a new request. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:31, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Has he been placed on 1RR, or just warned that he would be if he persists? Grandmaster (talk) 05:05, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

TTN and Sonic the Hedgehog characters

The following discussion is an archived report. Please do not modify it. Subsequent reports should be made in a new section.

this is not a debate page, start a clarification if you want to continue this... Rlevse

---

• note. TTN blatantly violated his ArbCom restrictions and has skirted the edges of it. He is blocked for two weeks, since the last block less than a month ago was for one week.[96][97] Vassyana (talk) 06:26, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

One week after TTN was blocked for a week for violating the restrictions imposed on him in the E&C2 arbitration case, TTN decided to violate his restrictions again. In the E&C2 case, TTN was "prohibited for six months from making any edit to an article or project page related to a television episode or character that substantially amounts to a merge, redirect, deletion, or request for any of the preceding, to be interpreted broadly." (bolding mine)

On May 11, 2008, TTN went to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Video games and said "Only seven articles...and seven character lists...are necessary....That's the basic plan...The main thing is that it gets started..." and also said "as long as there is a number consensus here, and the actual mergers are done slowly, it should work out." Sonic the Hedgehog characters are television characters. TTN made an edit to a project page requesting that a merge be performed on television character articles, and this a violation of the restrictions imposed on him by the arbitration committee. The full thread is visible here (oldid). --Pixelface (talk) 02:14, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

You have misunderstood his restrictions. He did not violate them. The restriction explicitly says "He is free to contribute on the talk pages". This includes being free on project talk pages to suggest merging and deletion. No violation, no action. Go forth and try to find consensus as to the right scope of coverage for these articles, as per the second remedy in that case. GRBerry 02:23, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

No, the restriction says TTN is prohibited from requesting merges on project pages. The phrase "He is free to contribute on the talk pages" does not allow him to request merges on project talk pages. --Pixelface (talk) 02:31, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

TTN is restricted from suggesting merges in project space, I'd say this was specifically in relation to wikiprojects. I'd suggest a block is in order here, but I'll leave it for another administrator to look at. Ryan Postlethwaite 02:36, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Here we go again, no adding of sources or anything just trimming (almost deleting) around almost TV material (oh heck, Jericho is a TV series, isn't it?). It is like an addiction, or as I said before Single-purpose account dedicated to removing material. However I concede that I too am involved so probably can't act in an uninvolved manner. I am not surprised. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 03:07, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Yep, here we go again. Broad interpretation gone wild. I can play the ... game, too, and I get Can people please, please, please comment? For some reason, people can easily comment on the existence of one article or the inclusion of two sentences in another article, but the existence of close to one hundred gets two comments at most... if someone want to change it, that's fine... the only way that will happen is if people will comment. Looks like someone doing his best to work collaboratively with others. If people would spend more of their time improving and deleting crappy articles and less of their time at Arbcom, Wikipedia would be a better place. Again, he is free to contribute on talk pages, and that certainly was on a talk page. Someone close this, please.Kww (talk) 03:40, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Sure, TTN started by asking for comments. But then he suddenly brings up mergers, saying "as long as there is a number consensus here, and the actual mergers are done slowly, it should work out." And soon after TTN asked for "comments", Krator nominated a Sonic the Hedgehog character article for deletion. What does it mean exactly when someone refers to 89 articles and says only seven articles and seven character lists are necessary? TTN may be free to contribute on talk pages, but he is prohibited from making any edit to a project page that substantially amounts to a request for a merge or deletion. --Pixelface (talk) 03:57, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

This kind of thing could be avoided if someone would just clarify the overall restriction. Truth be told, I never even noticed the part about project pages, but the whole thing really isn't clear about it. Does that mean any project page or talk page, or is it just a catch for another case like the failed "Episode review" project? Is a merge request the same thing as pointing out bad groups of articles? Am I to be completely silent every time some random old redirect gets brought back, or can I show it to someone and let them make a call on it? Is that considered having someone edit for me?

Those are just a few of the things I'm confused over. Can someone ask some arbitrators to either comment here or one of the open requests for clarification? That would clear some things up. TTN (talk) 14:45, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Why not just avoid anything to do with these TV or video game articles entirely instead of looking for clarifications on what you can or can't do? Go edit other things for the six months, there is no shortage of work to be done. Why even push the issue? If you keep that up, it looks like you're angling to get around the Arbitration to push a personal agenda, which is not acceptable. Lawrence Cohen § t/e 15:14, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

The ArbCom finding didn't come out of the blue. This thread is a pretty clear violation of the letter and, presumably, the spirit of your ArbCom restriction. You are free to request a clarification, but you need to respect the editing restriction as written until such time as a clarification is approved. Lawrence is absolutely right - instead of pushing the envelope of the letter of your ArbCom restriction, it would be better to accept its spirit. I think a block would be entirely justified under the ArbCom remedy. That said, I can accept - barely - the ignorance-of-the-law defense here. However, if you do anything in article- or project-space, including project talkspace, vaguely resembling soliciting, requesting, or planning merges, deletions, etc from here on, you don't have an excuse. If you're not sure whether something might violate the letter of the ArbCom sanction, then don't do it. MastCell ^Talk 15:42, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Some editors take the wording "to be interpreted broadly" as a de-facto topic ban for TTN. If that was arbcom's intention, then arbcom should say so in a clarification. If it wasn't, then there is no problem with TTN's pointing out terrible groups of articles. If others agree with him, then he is doing no evil, and if they don't, then TTN can't do anything about it and the status quo remains. There already are two requests for clarification in the TTN matter, but arbcom are taking their time, so it's not like this is their priority. If it is our goal to improve the encyclopedia, TTN shouldn't be punished for stating "I am bringing up a group of ridiculously inappropriate articles to get the ball rolling on cleanup, does someone want to take a look at it". – sgeureka ^t•c 15:51, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

No, that's not right. There is no deadline. Again, TTN needs to respect the current wording of the sanction until it is amended. He can't disregard it and then blame ArbCom for being too slow to address his request for clarification. The encyclopedia will not go to pieces if he has to go a week or two without pursuing this pet project. MastCell ^Talk 16:11, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

He has stayed within the limits of the language. I certainly don't interpret the ban on project pages while allowing talk pages to ban discussion on the talk page of the Sonic wikiproject. He's already suffered a one-week block from admins stretching "broadly interpreted" beyond all reasonable limits. If Arbcom wants to come back and say "really, we just meant that TTN should just shut up about television", then that's what they should say. Until then, a block is unwarranted.Kww (talk) 16:32, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Sanctions: is it time for the community to do this?

As TTN's actions (and those of his co-worker group) with these TV and fiction articles consistently and endlessly generate reams and reams of drama, conflict, and Arbitration cases, perhaps the community should simply develop custom sanctions in regards to them in place of or beyond what the Arbcom has put in place. The community has supreme power to limit internal disruption via such means, if they deem it required. Does the subjective benefit of TTN and company eliminating fiction articles and content outweigh the massive historic disruption they cause? If the answer is yes, then TTN's case needs to go immediately back to Arbitration for clarification. If the answer is no, the community needs to establish binding limitations on these actions to stop disruption. Which is it? Opinions of uninvolved editors on this matter will carry more weight. Lawrence Cohen § t/e 16:39, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

What's key is "the co-worker group" that aids him in causing these problems. It's not just TTN. Sincerely, --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles^Tally-ho! 16:45, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

If sanctions are determined then it needs to initially apply to TTN, and as he's stated before that he will e-mail his needs and desires in regards to fiction articles, the same sanction (if it comes to pass) would need to apply to any other editors that cause similar disruption via fiction articles. I have no opinion on the content either way, but like many, many people I believe we are quite sick of seeing disruption from any sort of "crusade" campaign on this website, which is what this has apparently become. Does the disruption outweigh the optional actions they are taking with these fiction articles? Do we want to allow ongoing meta-disruption and RFARs and ANIs over actions that may or may not be supported content matters? Lawrence Cohen § t/e 16:48, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

I think that you have misidentified the cause of the disruption. The people that keep objecting to efforts to get rid of articles that can never be brought up to standard, and start RFARs, ANIs, etc., need to be blocked for disruption a few times. Once the message gets across that if you have written a crappy article, whining at Arbcom that TTN or Eusebeus or Sgeureka is being mean to you won't bring it back, most of this drama will go away. The reason this problem cycles and cycles and cycles is because one side of the dispute has learned that whining sufficiently loudly will be rewarded. Punish the whining, fix the problem.Kww (talk) 18:03, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Again, this is all subjective. The question is as I said (and I'm a content guy more than a policy guy, if you can't tell from my user page, so that for what its worth) does the amount of disruption from the methods used to work on these fiction articles outweigh possible subjective benefit from the actions of TTN, Eusebeus or Sgeureka? If the answer is the disruption is greater, sanctions are likely in order. If the answer is the benefits outweigh the disruption, then this needs to be hauled before the AC for an ironclad clarification that no-one can dispute. With something so subjective, the views of involved parties or their partisans need to be de-valued for objective outsiders to decide. Lawrence Cohen § t/e 18:06, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

I'd consider the folks continually attempting to take TTN down to be a magnitude more disruptive then TTN's activities. SirFozzie (talk) 23:18, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Pixelface is correct, the restriction clearly says he is not to request a merge or any of the other procedures. These edits are then a violation. But since I did the first block, I'll leave it to someone else this time. — Rlevse • Talk • 23:18, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Serious question, Rlevse: what does He is free to contribute on the talk pages mean to you? Why did Arbcom so specifically set up different guidelines for article and talk space if they intended to block him from making similar requests in talk space? Kww (talk) 00:27, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Kww's correct, here. There is no reason for any action to be taken here. SirFozzie (talk) 01:29, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

It then becomes like canvassing. I just can't believe in the face of blocks, bans etc. that someone can be so single-minded. ...and here we go again, along the trenchlines...it is still skirting the borders of the ruling to continue with the same outcomes. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 05:06, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Bulbasaur

In addition to requesting a merge of articles related to television characters at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Video games on May 11, on May 8, 2008 TTN requested at Wikipedia:Fiction/Noticeboard that the Bulbasaur article, another article about a television character, be redirected[98] — which is another violation of the ArbCom ruling. The full thread is visible here (oldid) --Pixelface (talk) 05:36, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Wait, why on earth would that be redirected? It's heavily sourced, independently notable, and these character articles have been brought to Featured Article status (even Main Paged!) in the past. That makes absolutely no sense. Lawrence Cohen § t/e 05:42, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Exactly - it is one of the most popular half dozen or so pokémon.Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 05:56, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

I am reopening this, because A) There was no reason for this block (the ArbCom result says he's fully able to do this on the talk pages), and B) Two weeks for a minor infraction if it WAS an infraction is completely over the top. SirFozzie (talk) 02:17, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

So you're saying the phrase "any edit to an article or project page" means project talk pages are not included in the prohibition? If that's the case, is WP:FICT/N a talk page? You're saying TTN is free to initiate threads and request deletions, merges, or redirections of TV episode articles or TV character articles on any talk page anywhere? --Pixelface (talk) 13:57, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

That was what most of us understand the ruling to mean, yes. -- Ned Scott 05:50, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

What part of "TTN is prohibited for six months from making any edit to an article or project page related to a television episode or character that substantially amounts to a merge, redirect, deletion, or request for any of the preceding, to be interpreted broadly. He is free to contribute on the talk pages or to comment on any AfD, RfD, DRV, or similar discussion initiated by another editor, as appropriate." is hard to understand? A request for a redirect is clearly a breach of this restriction as Vassyana rightly commented. Catchpole (talk) 07:31, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

You need to parse that sentence a little bit more carefully. Substantially amounts to a merge, redirect, deletion, or request for any of the preceding is a qualifier that applies only to any edit to an article or project page related to a television episode or character. The restriction does not apply to talk pages, because they are neither articles nor project pages. I think that logically the fiction noticeboard is a talk page, but I grant that it is a project page, and falls under the injunction. I've added a request for clarification of that point to my existing request for clarification. Kww (talk) 17:51, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

MarshallBagramyan

MarshallBagramyan (talk · contribs) is involved in edit warring in Nagorno-Karabakh related articles, which is the area covered by the arbcom cases Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Armenia-Azerbaijan and Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Armenia-Azerbaijan 2. He fails to cite any reliable sources to support his claims and resorts to edit warring to keep the nationalist Armenian source that he uses as his sole reference in the article. While the rv parole me and other users were placed on a year ago has expired, I voluntarily agreed to stick to it, and the admins recommended other users editing the arbcom ruling covered area do the same. [99] However MarshallBagramyan made 2 rvs on Lachin within the last 2 days, in contrast to what the admins recommend: [100] [101] In a situation when everyone else voluntarily sticks to 1RR, such behavior is nothing but baiting others to violate the parole and disruption, and in my opinion this user should be placed on the same editing restrictions as others. I see no reason why anyone should be able to make more than 1 rv per week in this topic area anyway, some people are clearly gaming the system. Grandmaster (talk) 05:17, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

MarshallBagramyan warned,[102] as per ArbCom remedy. If the user persist after this warning, please post a new request. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:31, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Has he been placed on 1RR, or just warned that he would be if he persists? Grandmaster (talk) 05:05, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

MarshallBagramyan

MarshallBagramyan (talk · contribs) is involved in edit warring in Nagorno-Karabakh related articles, which is the area covered by the arbcom cases Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Armenia-Azerbaijan and Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Armenia-Azerbaijan 2. He fails to cite any reliable sources to support his claims and resorts to edit warring to keep the nationalist Armenian source that he uses as his sole reference in the article. While the rv parole me and other users were placed on a year ago has expired, I voluntarily agreed to stick to it, and the admins recommended other users editing the arbcom ruling covered area do the same. [103] However MarshallBagramyan made 2 rvs on Lachin within the last 2 days, in contrast to what the admins recommend: [104] [105] In a situation when everyone else voluntarily sticks to 1RR, such behavior is nothing but baiting others to violate the parole and disruption, and in my opinion this user should be placed on the same editing restrictions as others. I see no reason why anyone should be able to make more than 1 rv per week in this topic area anyway, some people are clearly gaming the system. Grandmaster (talk) 05:17, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

MarshallBagramyan warned,[106] as per ArbCom remedy. If the user persist after this warning, please post a new request. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:31, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Has he been placed on 1RR, or just warned that he would be if he persists? Grandmaster (talk) 05:05, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Meowy

Meowy (talk · contribs) is involved in edit warring together with MarshallBagramyan on the same articles about Lachin (town and district). He was explained many times that in controversial articles like this independent sources are preferable. However he restored to the article a reference to the Armenian nationalistic author Samvel Karapetian yet again, which is 2 rvs within the last 2 days. [107] [108] His persistence on using this particular source is very strange, considering that I provided a much better independent source, which he mentions in his subsequent edit, but does not use for whatever reason. I’m not quite sure what this user is trying to do, but in any case it is an obvious and deliberate violation of 1RR limitation, on which he was placed as per the arbcom case AA2: [109] and which is still in force. Grandmaster (talk) 05:14, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Not for the first time (and - I bet - not for the last time) Grandmaster indulges in some gameplay, trying to exploit Wikipedia for his own ends. I have not been "edit warring". The only person who says that the cited source, a book by Karpetian, is unacceptable is Grandmaster himself - and, beyond broad and unproven slurs like "Armenian nationalistic author" he seems incapable of articulting what his specific objections to the source are. In fact, he agrees that the source is factually correct in its information - the information being the former name of Lachin. The alternative source is not a "better source", it is a foreign-language online source written in Cyrillic. Given that the English-language source - the book by Karapetian - contains exactly the same information, it should be the one used for an English Wikipedia article. Meowy 17:23, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

The source that you are persistently trying to include has a strong conflict of interest in this issue, Karapetyan openly expresses his racist views about Turkic people to a western journalist. Such source cannot be considered neutral or reliable, and you know that. And I'm not the only one objecting to the use of this source, another 3 editors agreed with me. But this board is not about content disputes, you made 2 rvs in the last couple of days, which is a clear violation of your 1RR parole. Grandmaster (talk) 17:30, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

The only racism is from you, you who are dismissing a source, which happens to be a detailed, comprehensive and reliable book (and a book which you have never laid eyes upon), for no other reason than that its author happens to be Armenian. There is no "conflict of interest" - you yourself have admitted that the fact that Ardalar is the former name for Lachin (for which the book is being used as a reference) is a correct fact. And I only made one revert, on 13th May. The revert was to restore the Ardalar information - information that you agree was correct! Meowy 18:55, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

BTW, I am at a loss to understand what Grandmaster's agenda is here. I added the Ardalar information to the entry. He then removed it. Another editor re-inserted it. Grandmaster's pal Atabek erased it again. I restored it. Meanwhile, Grandmaster dismissed the source because of its author, dismissed the old map I cited as another source, demanded I upload a scan of said map (with the implication that I was lying about its contents), then, when I did upload it, he dismissed all maps as sources! And all this is over a trivial fact he himself admits is correct! What is his objection to a reader knowing that the old name of Lachin is Ardalar? Or is his real agenda to engineer situations in which he can manipulate Wikipedia procedures in order to attack editors he disagrees with? Meowy 19:15, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

I only want the article to be properly sourced in accordance with the wiki rules. I do not understand why you have to use this source that causes so many objections from other users, when there are perfectly acceptable ones. And it is not just about this article, you try to insert the same source to every article about this region to support other claims. It appears that the purpose is to get it accepted first by using it to support a claim that is not so controversial, and then expand its use on other claims. If you only want to state that the older name of the region was Ardalar, you don't need that source at all, I found a better one and provided it at talk. Why cannot we stick to neutral sources? However you go as far as violating your parole just to reinsert it once again to the article. I do not understand this persistence and I don't think you are allowed to violate your parole, whatever your motivations are. This is very simple, you violated your parole, when you really did not have to, and you did that on purpose, knowing the consequences. Grandmaster (talk) 20:22, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Quote: "If you only want to state that the older name of the region was Ardalar, you don't need that source at all" - if that were your true opinion (that the fact was uncontested and thus didn't need a reference), then why did you erase the mention of Ardalar when you erased the mention of the reference, and then ask to see the scan of the map for proof of the former existence of a place called Ardalar? And are you saying you remove information you know is correct just because you don't like the source?

I will continue to use that book, "Armenian Cultural Monuments in the Region of Karabakh", as a source whenever I feel it is needed: it is credible, comprehensive, and unique (there being no other book in English dealing with that subject in such depth). Your sweeping dismissal of everything in a book you have never even set eyes upon says much about your overall attitude here. And, once again, I made only one revert. Meowy 21:34, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

And as further proof, Grandmaster says in the above that he accepts that Ardalar is the old name for Lachin, yet on this [[110]] talk page he says the exact opposite, quote "the city was founded in Soviet times too. How could they have any old names? This is just invention of Armenian propaganda to justify the claims on Azerbaijani lands". It is as I suspected. His objection to a reader knowing that the old name of Lachin is Ardalar is because that trivial but truthful fact disagrees with some lies contained in Azerbaijani propaganda. Meowy 23:39, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

You made 2 rvs, second one by restoring the source that was not considered reliable by other users. And I don't mind mentioning that the old name of the town (at the time a village) was Ardalar, as long as it is properly sourced. I was only asking you to provide a third party source, which I eventually found myself. You persistence on using Armenian sources and rejecting Azerbaijani ones is a violation of wiki rules, which require using third party sources for controversial topics. You were claiming that An "Azeri author" is not capable of reflecting on "historical truth", which is a pretty racist claim. But despite that, I still suggest that we give preference to neutral sources when writing about controversial topics, that will help to increase the reliability of the articles, as there will be less claims that the article is dominated by Armenian or Azerbaijani propaganda. Grandmaster (talk) 17:39, 18 May 2008 (UTC)