Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Errol Sawyer (2nd nomination): Difference between revisions
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:''The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]). No further edits should be made to this page.'' |
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Note: If you are seeing this page as a result of an attempt to re-nominate an article for deletion, you must manually edit the AfD nomination links in order to create a new discussion page using the name format of [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/PAGENAME (2nd nomination)]]. When you create the new discussion page, please provide a link to this old discussion in your nomination. --> |
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The result was '''delete'''. [[User:Fritzpoll|Fritzpoll]] ([[User talk:Fritzpoll|talk]]) 21:38, 6 June 2009 (UTC) |
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===[[Errol Sawyer]]=== |
===[[Errol Sawyer]]=== |
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{{REMOVE THIS TEMPLATE WHEN CLOSING THIS AfD|B}} |
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<div class="infobox" style="width:50%">AfDs for this article:<ul class="listify">{{Special:Prefixindex/Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Errol Sawyer}}</ul></div> |
<div class="infobox" style="width:50%">AfDs for this article:<ul class="listify">{{Special:Prefixindex/Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Errol Sawyer}}</ul></div> |
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:{{la|Errol Sawyer}} (<span class="plainlinks">[{{fullurl:Errol Sawyer|wpReason={{urlencode: [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Errol Sawyer (2nd nomination)]]}}&action=delete}} delete]</span>) – <includeonly>([[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Errol Sawyer (2nd nomination)|View AfD]])</includeonly><noinclude>([[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2009 May 30#{{anchorencode:Errol Sawyer}}|View log]])</noinclude> |
:{{la|Errol Sawyer}} (<span class="plainlinks">[{{fullurl:Errol Sawyer|wpReason={{urlencode: [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Errol Sawyer (2nd nomination)]]}}&action=delete}} delete]</span>) – <includeonly>([[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Errol Sawyer (2nd nomination)|View AfD]])</includeonly><noinclude>([[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2009 May 30#{{anchorencode:Errol Sawyer}}|View log]])</noinclude> |
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[http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&page=Errol_Sawyer Previously deleted] article brought back after userfication w/o anything concrete to show for it. No photography books published, awards won, well-known photographs, inclusion in anthologies, or anything else that makes a photographer of note. Main editor — major COI — claims notability on presence of work in museums per additional criteria in [[WP:CREATIVE]] (''is represented within the permanent collections of several notable galleries or museums, or had works in many significant libraries''), but only three claims can be substantiated and these only through a [http://catalogue.bnf.fr/servlet/RechercheEquation?TexteCollection=HGARSTUVWXYZ1DIECBMJNQLOKP&TexteTypeDoc=DESNFPIBTMCJOV&Equation=IDP%3Dcb149600920&FormatAffichage=0&host=catalogue catalog card], [http://catalogue.nal.vam.ac.uk/#focus search engine], and a [http://www.mfah.org/pdf/Photography_Collection.pdf list] with over 3,000 names. Per [[WP:BIO]]'s "Basic criteria," I would argue such sources don't contribute toward notability in the same sense that primary sources don't (no coverage involved). Only independent secondary coverage demonstrated is left over from previously deleted version: a review in ''PF Magazine'' that backs up nothing of note (mainly bio info) and a few sentences in a book on having discovered Christie Brinkley. The rest of the sources are self-published, don't verify the text, or primary. <span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Mbinebri|< |
[http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&page=Errol_Sawyer Previously deleted] article brought back after userfication w/o anything concrete to show for it. No photography books published, awards won, well-known photographs, inclusion in anthologies, or anything else that makes a photographer of note. Main editor — major COI — claims notability on presence of work in museums per additional criteria in [[WP:CREATIVE]] (''is represented within the permanent collections of several notable galleries or museums, or had works in many significant libraries''), but only three claims can be substantiated and these only through a [http://catalogue.bnf.fr/servlet/RechercheEquation?TexteCollection=HGARSTUVWXYZ1DIECBMJNQLOKP&TexteTypeDoc=DESNFPIBTMCJOV&Equation=IDP%3Dcb149600920&FormatAffichage=0&host=catalogue catalog card], [http://catalogue.nal.vam.ac.uk/#focus search engine], and a [http://www.mfah.org/pdf/Photography_Collection.pdf list] with over 3,000 names. Per [[WP:BIO]]'s "Basic criteria," I would argue such sources don't contribute toward notability in the same sense that primary sources don't (no coverage involved). Only independent secondary coverage demonstrated is left over from previously deleted version: a review in ''PF Magazine'' that backs up nothing of note (mainly bio info) and a few sentences in a book on having discovered Christie Brinkley. The rest of the sources are self-published, don't verify the text, or primary. <span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Mbinebri|<span style="color:black;background:white;font-family:helvica;">'' '''Mbinebri''' ''</span>]]</span> <sup>[[User talk:Mbinebri|talk ←]]</sup> 15:37, 30 May 2009 (UTC) |
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*'''Delete''' as per nomination, this article fails to achieve notability. The additional facts of the previous deletion, the recreation by a COIed editor, the survival of a Speedy Delete request by the narrowest of justifications, and the obvious stretching of the thin documentation are all further evidence of the attempts to create notability through the existence of an encyclopedic article. Sawyer would be better served by an article written after he achieved acclaim, rather than this promotional item. [[User:TheMindsEye|TheMindsEye]] ([[User talk:TheMindsEye|talk]]) 19:35, 30 May 2009 (UTC) |
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*<small class="delsort-notice">'''Note''': This debate has been included in the [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Living people|list of Living people-related deletion discussions]]. <!--Template:Delsort--></small> <small>-- [[User:Gene93k|• Gene93k]] ([[User talk:Gene93k|talk]]) 20:19, 30 May 2009 (UTC)</small> |
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*<small class="delsort-notice">'''Note''': This debate has been included in the [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Photography|list of Photography-related deletion discussions]]. <!--Template:Delsort--></small> <small>-- [[User:Gene93k|• Gene93k]] ([[User talk:Gene93k|talk]]) 20:20, 30 May 2009 (UTC)</small> |
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*'''Comment''' I'm not worried about the need for readers to do some work (typing name in search field, etc) to see that claims that Sawyer's work is held by museums are indeed verifiable. However, the verifiable holdings may be rather less than what's suggested above. One of the three places is said in the article to have just two photographs; the article is silent about another (the V&A), which turns out to have what appear to be three catalogue entries for the same item: ''"Errol Sawyer, photographer" upper surface of jewel case. / Contains Powerpoint Presentations and Word documents. / Local Notes: / Donated by Errol Sawyer. / Subjects: / Photography, Artistic -- Netherlands. / Genre or Form: / CD-ROMs -- Netherlands 2002.'' A self-donated, self-published CD is, I submit, rather minor. ¶ I'm also worried about what sourcing there is. Take the claim that "Since 1984, Sawyer has worked on multicultural beauty projects for Vis-A-Vis Magazine." This is footnoted with a link to what turns out to be an article about beauty whose only mention of Sawyer (or photography) is "Photography by Errol Sawyer". So all the "source" shows is that at least once, directly or indirectly, Sawyer recently worked for ''Vis-A-Vis.'' ¶ A number of editors have tried their best with this article, and it's better than it [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Errol_Sawyer&oldid=118547136 was]. Maybe the "Article Rescue Squadron", as [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Errol_Sawyer&diff=293360134&oldid=293327953 invited] by Genovese12345, can find some critical discussion of Sawyer's work. I'll postpone my "!vote" for some days. -- [[User:Hoary|Hoary]] ([[User talk:Hoary|talk]]) 14:09, 31 May 2009 (UTC) |
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*'''Weak Delete''' It seems much effort has gone into rescuing this article already, and the sources just aren't there - [[User:Vartanza|Vartanza]] ([[User talk:Vartanza|talk]]) 05:17, 1 June 2009 (UTC). |
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*'''Keep''' I think there was just enough previously, and clearly enough now. His work is in the collection of several major museums, and several articles have been written about him--either alone would be sufficient. I really regret to have to say it, but I have the impression that the opposition to this article by the nominator is not necessarily in good faith; the history of the article shows excessive concentration on one minor point about the sponsorship or discovery of a particular model, and I think that' was the focus here--the questioning of the sources is in excess and pointy; the magazines listed are significant magazines,and print sources are just fine. I have tried to help the author find more, and to tried to persuade her not to includes some of the inadequate sources; I wish the article was stronger, but it is still strong enough. I cannot recollect the degree of challenge and disbelief shown here to any other similar article. '''[[User:DGG|DGG]]''' ([[User talk:DGG|talk]]) 21:57, 3 June 2009 (UTC) |
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**DGG, what are these "several articles" that have been written about him? I've seen a ''single'' article (as a PDF briefly hosted by WP) in a magazine: Hoeneveld, "Errol Sawyer". What else is there in any magazine or book? Further, I don't think my characterization above of the "sourcing" for the assertion that "Since 1984, Sawyer has worked on multicultural beauty projects for ''Vis-A-Vis Magazine''" is in excess. (It's certainly pointy: my point was and is that even what appears to be sourced may not be. I think that both you and I are free to make points. If we dismiss this AfD on suspicion of pointiness, we might as well dismiss the article for embarrassingly obvious pointiness; indeed, COI has already been claimed, although I'd say that OWN has been a much bigger problem.) But back to sourcing. Since I pointily pointed out on 31 May that it was off, and indeed since the "Article Rescue Squadron" announced a planned rescue effort, [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Errol_Sawyer&diff=293832584&oldid=293360134 no improvement has been made]. The article's main author probably has an unrivaled knowledge of what may have appeared in the press, etc, and I infer that what's cited in the article is all that exists to be cited; if it isn't, then let's see improvements by other editors. -- [[User:Hoary|Hoary]] ([[User talk:Hoary|talk]]) 00:16, 4 June 2009 (UTC) |
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***I think DGG is a bit guilty of exaggeration in justifying his keep vote. But I agree with Hoary that there's likely nothing more to be found in terms of secondary citations/significant coverage to add to the inadequate amount the article currently has. If there was, the article's main editor would know to find it and have put a quick end to this months ago, but instead has been almost entirely focused on trying to "cite" existence of work in museums, when that work might just be more self-donated CDs like with the V&A, which no notable photog would have to resort to. <span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Mbinebri|<span style="color:black;background:white;font-family:helvica;">'' '''Mbinebri''' ''</span>]]</span> <sup>[[User talk:Mbinebri|talk ←]]</sup> 03:14, 4 June 2009 (UTC) |
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*'''Weak delete''', "weak" in that I suspect that Sawyer does merit an article but there appear to be next to no materials for creating one. The page at intute.ac.uk is much cited, but this is only incidentally about Sawyer and instead is primarily about his website; it seems unlikely that Mary Burslem (whose name appears on many of these entries) would have done more than repeat assertions either contained within the website or provided within any recommendation of it that she may have received. Since the start of this second AfD, neither the "Article Rescue Squadron" nor DGG nor indeed anybody else has actually done anything to rescue this article, which in the past has been fiercely defended by one editor (who at times seems to want to own not only the article but [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AErrol_Sawyer&diff=287798075&oldid=287647204 its talk page too]). Not that it should matter much, but I like quite a bit of the little JPEGs I have seen of Sawyer's work; if his book ''City Mosaic'' is published (as [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3A1027E&diff=287124553&oldid=287062146 has been promised]) or there is some major exhibition then I'd expect that this would get some discussion somewhere. A new article could then be considered on its merits (and ''not'' speedied). In the meantime, this one can be userfied to [[User talk:Efsawyer|Efsawyer]]. -- [[User:Hoary|Hoary]] ([[User talk:Hoary|talk]]) 01:32, 6 June 2009 (UTC) |
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**I think you're misinterpreting what the Intute page is. It's not about Sawyer's website — it's from Sawyer's website; i.e., it's a mirror, as the first sentence is, "This is the website of fine art photographer Errol Sawyer," and the publisher is cited as Fischer. Burslem is just the person who catalogued the entry apparently. <span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Mbinebri|<span style="color:black;background:white;font-family:helvica;">'' '''Mbinebri''' ''</span>]]</span> <sup>[[User talk:Mbinebri|talk ←]]</sup> 03:29, 6 June 2009 (UTC) |
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***If it's a copy of part of Sawyer's, then perhaps you can point to where within Sawyer's site is written "This is the website of fine art photographer Errol Sawyer". I can't. (The Flash on that site is an irritation, but there aren't many [quasi-] pages to look through.) The publisher of the site is indeed Fischer. "This is the website of" would be a clunky thing to say on that particular website but it's just the kind of thing that an exhausted cataloguer might write about it, and indeed the cataloguers often do write it: [http://www.intute.ac.uk/artsandhumanities/cgi-bin/fullrecord.pl?handle=20080815-17403460 here], [http://www.intute.ac.uk/artsandhumanities/cgi-bin/fullrecord.pl?handle=20071105-170412 here], [http://www.intute.ac.uk/artsandhumanities/cgi-bin/fullrecord.pl?handle=20070905-154501 here], etc. -- [[User:Hoary|Hoary]] ([[User talk:Hoary|talk]]) 06:28, 6 June 2009 (UTC) |
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****My assumption is that the first sentence is added in such articles in order to state where the info presented came from, but it's not an important point at this stage. <span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Mbinebri|<span style="color:black;background:white;font-family:helvica;">'' '''Mbinebri''' ''</span>]]</span> <sup>[[User talk:Mbinebri|talk ←]]</sup> 19:22, 6 June 2009 (UTC) |
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:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]). No further edits should be made to this page.'' <!--Template:Afd bottom--></div> |
Latest revision as of 07:17, 5 April 2022
This discussion was subject to a deletion review on 2013 June 1. For an explanation of the process, see Wikipedia:Deletion review. |