Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/José Bautista's bat flip

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was redirect to Bat flip#José Bautista bat flip. The only alternative to a redirect is a No consensus decision as participants are all over the map here. But I feel that there is more support for a redirect but, as a closer, it was confusing as several targets were mentioned. If you would prefer another redirect target, please discuss it at the talk page. The content is still present if there is any that those advocating a Merge want to make use of. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 23:16, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

José Bautista's bat flip

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José Bautista's bat flip (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)

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Unnecessary content fork. A bat flip is a relatively common baseball “move.” This play is not independently notable and is already sufficiently covered in Bat flip#José Bautista bat flip Frank Anchor 18:57, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

• Note: This was previously nominated for deletion in June 2022 as part of a group nomination and closed as a procedural keep due to varying levels of notability between pages within the group.Frank Anchor 18:57, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
• Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Baseball-related deletion discussions. Frank Anchor 19:03, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
• Delete unnecessary content fork that includes much WP:COATRACK material. – Muboshgu (talk) 19:09, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
• Keep or Redirect - Not all but enough of the texts cited in the article talk specifically about José Bautista's bat flip that it constitutes WP:SIGCOV of this specific event and not just bat flips in general. The contents of this article definitely have grounds to be kept as far as notability is concerned, either as this article being kept, or merged and redirected to Bat flip#José Bautista bat flip. Diffidently don't delete tho.--PiccklePiclePikel (talk) 19:28, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
• Strong keep This was one of the seminal moments in Blue Jays history, and has entire chapter devoted to it in "100 Things Blue Jays Fans Should Know & Do Before They Die" by Steve Clarke. Also widely discussed in Toronto media, including this recent article, [1] and this [2]. Oaktree b (talk) 19:55, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

• Both of these pages are WP:ROUTINE coverage and only make one passing mention of Bautista's bat flip in the body of the article. Further, being a "seminal moment" in franchise history (based on the opinion of one person) is not justification to keep an article. Frank Anchor 20:00, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

  It's still discussed a decade later is proof of notability, comparing other things to it as in those articles. Also has a chapter in the book as described. Also discussed in Sports Illustrated, [3], a discussion about how important it was to the player here [4], the bat itself was sold at auction [5], as was the ball [6]. It's been covered from multiple angles in Canadian media outlets for the last decade, should meet GNG. It's also been discussed in scholarly journals [7],[8], in fields from theology to theatre review. May only be trivial mentions, but help to show how the event has become part of Canadian pop culture. It's also been used to illustrate race relations in sport, in a thesis [9] and similarly in this one [10]. This should be GNG. Oaktree b (talk) 20:03, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

  Coverage of the event itself, of the ball, of the bat, of the importance to the player, how rude it was or wasn't. I'd gladly use these sources to write the article if it wasn't done already, should be more than enough to prove notability for our standards here. Coverage of the event, of the items involved and of the importance of the action. Oaktree b (talk) 20:16, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

• Even if it were to pass GNG, there is no requirement for an article to be made, particularly when the subject is adequately discussed in Bat flip#José Bautista bat flip and 2015 American League Division Series without the unnecessary WP:FLUFF added into the page. The page on Bautista's bat flip is an unnecessary content fork. Frank Anchor 20:21, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

  My view is it would have been an unnecessary content fork if there hadn't been so many sources talking specifically about José Bautista's specific bat flip. Given that a significant amount of sources talk specifically about this event, it has significant coverage and an article dedicated to it is fair game.

  Additionally this event may pass Wikipedia:LASTING and Wikipedia:PERSISTENCE per description by @Oaktree b. PiccklePiclePikel (talk) 22:05, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

• Merge to José Bautista. I acknowledge the notability and significant coverage of this, but is an instance of a bat being thrown in a game, a brief event which took place in under 5 seconds, really enough to warrant its own article? Pardon me if this comes of as ignorant as I'm not really a sports person. All in all I feel like it should just be a section of the article of José Bautista, even with all the notability. Waddles 🗩 🖉 01:20, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

  FWIW, it's already mentioned there. See the José Bautista#2015 section....... PKT(alk) 18:11, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

• Comment pinging @Spanneraol:, @BornonJune8:, @Ejgreen77:, and @PKT: who made specific comments regarding Bautista’s bat flip (either supporting or opposing deletion) during the previous group AFD linked above. This is NOT WP:CANVASSing as I intend to get input from both sides of the previous discussion. Frank Anchor 12:55, 4 September 2022 (UTC)
• Delete. It just is not a notable enough moment on it's own. Covered in the division series article and in Bautista's individual article but not notable on it's own. There are lots of obnoxious bat flips in baseball and this one is nothing special.... especially since it occured in a division series... maybe Blue Jay fans remember it but the rest of baseball fans don't. Spanneraol (talk) 13:35, 4 September 2022 (UTC)
  • @Spanneraol: First off, how exactly is Bautista's bat flip not special or a notable enough moment on its own? It was and is still, a heavily used meme online. And how can you say that since it occurred in a Division Series that it's not that special? Would it have made a difference had it happened during the World Series or League Championship Series? Keep in mind that even if it happened in the Division Series, it was still in the decisive fifth game (a game that would send the Blue Jays to the LCS for the first time since 1993). And the bat flip was the climax of an insane, 58-minute long 7th inning. It's still a way more important game than any regular season game. It's a very vague, subjective, and/or broad generalization I think to suggest that the rest of baseball fans (outside of Toronto) wouldn't remember it. BornonJune8 (talk) 10:27, 4 September 2022 (UTC)
    • A bat flip on it's own is never anything notable. The homer maybe but even then it's just one play in the game... It isn't something that is notable outside of the game it occurred. The climax of the inning was the home run, not his celebration of it.. which doesn't even get mentioned in the box score. Lots of things become memes... doesn't make them worth having a wikipedia article.Spanneraol (talk) 01:03, 5 September 2022 (UTC)
• Redirect to Bat flip#José Bautista bat flip. The topic is notable but much of the article is WP:FANCRUFT and/or summarizing an otherwise run-of-the-mill playoff game. The current text at the “Bat Flip” article is sufficient. Jose Bautista or 2015 American League Division Series#Toronto vs. Texas could be redirect targets as well, and much of this page is copied and pasted from the latter. Carson Wentz (talk) 01:22, 5 September 2022 (UTC)
  • @Spanneraol: Again, we need to understand and frame things in the right or proper context. The home run proved to be the game and ultimately series winner for the Blue Jays. And the bat flip goes directly hand in hand with the home run. You can't talk about one thing without discussing the other. If the dramatic bat flip didn't immediately follow the swing of the bat, then maybe I could better see your point about it just being one play in the game, especially a decisive playoff game. But I reiterate that it was the culmination of a very long, drawn out, and problematic inning for both Toronto and Texas. BornonJune8 (talk) 06:55, 5 September 2022 (UTC)
• Delete. (disclosure: I'm a Blue Jays fan and remember the moment very well, to this day). The bat flip is more than adequately discussed in José Bautista#2015, and in Bat flip#José Bautista bat flip, and in 2015 American League Division Series#Game_5_2. Joey Bats's flip doesn't warrant an article all on its own - in fact most of the article in question repeats information in the other articles. If consensus does not end in deletion, then go with redirecting to Bat flip#José Bautista bat flip. PKT(alk) 12:32, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 18:40, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

• Redirect to the main Bautista page and Merge as needed to any of: José Bautista, Bat flip, and/or 2015 American League Division Series. Not seeing enough coverage apart from the game/person to justify a stand-alone article. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 13:12, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Comr Melody Idoghor (talk) 21:36, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

• Redirect per the above. This is more of an illustration than anything, but to give a comparison for what does and does not stand alone as an article, the bat flip is probably less notable and certainly has received less significant coverage than the incident with Kanye West and Taylor Swift at the VMAs, and that doesn't have its own article either. Gnomingstuff (talk) 15:55, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.