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The result was '''no consensus'''. Macleod doesn't pass [[WP:NFOOTY]] in its current wording, and I don't see the arguments for an exemption for Rangers as being particularly strong. NFOOTY is already an inclusive guideline, as it allows us to have articles on players who would not otherwise pass [[WP:GNG]]; to allow further exceptions based on clubs' histories seems to me to run contrary to [[WP:LOCALCONSENSUS]]. This leaves us with the possibility of whether Macleod satisfies the GNG directly. I saw strong opinions on either side, but ultimately no consensus as to whether the sources in the article and listed in the debate consist of significant coverage or not. Despite arguments that the coverage about Macleod was merely routine, I didn't find the "keep" arguments to be easily dismissable. Editors should feel free to renominate in a few months. — '''''[[User:Mr. Stradivarius|<span style="color: #194D00; font-family: Palatino, Times, serif">Mr. Stradivarius</span>]]''''' <sup>([[User talk:Mr. Stradivarius|have a chat]])</sup> 04:02, 30 September 2012 (UTC)
The result was '''no consensus'''. Macleod doesn't pass [[WP:NFOOTY]] in its current wording, and I don't see the arguments for an exemption for Rangers as being particularly strong. NFOOTY is already an inclusive guideline, as it allows us to have articles on players who would not otherwise pass [[WP:GNG]]; to allow further exceptions based on clubs' histories seems to me to run contrary to [[WP:LOCALCONSENSUS]]. This leaves us with the possibility of whether Macleod satisfies the GNG directly. I saw strong opinions on either side, but ultimately no consensus as to whether the sources in the article and listed in the debate consist of significant coverage or not. Despite arguments that the coverage about Macleod was merely routine, I didn't find the "keep" arguments to be easily dismissable. Editors should feel free to renominate in a few months. — '''''[[User:Mr. Stradivarius|<span style="color: #194D00; font-family: Palatino, Times, serif">Mr. Stradivarius</span>]]''''' <sup>([[User talk:Mr. Stradivarius|have a chat]])</sup> 04:02, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

{{closing}}
===[[Lewis Macleod (footballer)]]===
===[[Lewis Macleod (footballer)]]===
<div class="infobox" style="width:50%">AfDs for this article:<ul class="listify">{{Special:Prefixindex/Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Lewis MacLeod (footballer)}}{{Special:Prefixindex/Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Lewis Macleod (footballer)}}</ul></div>
<div class="infobox" style="width:50%">AfDs for this article:<ul class="listify">{{Special:Prefixindex/Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Lewis MacLeod (footballer)}}{{Special:Prefixindex/Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Lewis Macleod (footballer)}}</ul></div>
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:{{la|Lewis Macleod (footballer)}} – (<includeonly>[[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Lewis Macleod (footballer)|View AfD]]</includeonly><noinclude>[[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2012 September 22#{{anchorencode:Lewis Macleod (footballer)}}|View log]]</noinclude>{{•}} <span class="plainlinks">[http://toolserver.org/~snottywong/cgi-bin/votecounter.cgi?page=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Lewis_Macleod_(footballer) Stats]</span>)
:{{la|Lewis Macleod (footballer)}} – (<includeonly>[[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Lewis Macleod (footballer)|View AfD]]</includeonly><noinclude>[[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2012 September 22#{{anchorencode:Lewis Macleod (footballer)}}|View log]]</noinclude>{{•}} <span class="plainlinks">[http://toolserver.org/~snottywong/cgi-bin/votecounter.cgi?page=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Lewis_Macleod_(footballer) Stats]</span>)
:({{Find sources|Lewis Macleod (footballer)}})
:({{Find sources|Lewis Macleod (footballer)}})
Article is about a footballer who fails [[WP:GNG]] & [[WP:NFOOTBALL]]. It was already deleted in August via AfD so I nominated it for speedy deletion via [[WP:G4]] which was declined by an admin with the comment ''Not at all the same as before'' who failed to inform me. But it still fails both guidelines. &#9733;&#9734; [[User:DUCKISJAMMMY|<font color="Fuchsia">DUCK</font><font color="blue">IS</font><font color="Fuchsia">JAMMMY</font>]]&#9734;&#9733; 13:48, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
Article is about a footballer who fails [[WP:GNG]] & [[WP:NFOOTBALL]]. It was already deleted in August via AfD so I nominated it for speedy deletion via [[WP:G4]] which was declined by an admin with the comment ''Not at all the same as before'' who failed to inform me. But it still fails both guidelines. &#9733;&#9734; [[User:DUCKISJAMMMY|<span style="color:Fuchsia;">DUCK</span><span style="color:blue;">IS</span><span style="color:Fuchsia;">JAMMMY</span>]]&#9734;&#9733; 13:48, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
:<small>Note: This discussion has been included in [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Football#Nominations for deletion and page moves|WikiProject Football]]'s list of association football-related deletions. &#9733;&#9734; [[User:DUCKISJAMMMY|<font color="Fuchsia">DUCK</font><font color="blue">IS</font><font color="Fuchsia">JAMMMY</font>]]&#9734;&#9733; 13:52, 22 September 2012 (UTC)</small>
:<small>Note: This discussion has been included in [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Football#Nominations for deletion and page moves|WikiProject Football]]'s list of association football-related deletions. &#9733;&#9734; [[User:DUCKISJAMMMY|<span style="color:Fuchsia;">DUCK</span><span style="color:blue;">IS</span><span style="color:Fuchsia;">JAMMMY</span>]]&#9734;&#9733; 13:52, 22 September 2012 (UTC)</small>
:<small>Note: This discussion has been included in [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Football/Scotland task force#Nominations for deletion and page moves|Scottish task force]]'s list of association football-related deletions. &#9733;&#9734; [[User:DUCKISJAMMMY|<font color="Fuchsia">DUCK</font><font color="blue">IS</font><font color="Fuchsia">JAMMMY</font>]]&#9734;&#9733; 13:52, 22 September 2012 (UTC)</small>
:<small>Note: This discussion has been included in [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Football/Scotland task force#Nominations for deletion and page moves|Scottish task force]]'s list of association football-related deletions. &#9733;&#9734; [[User:DUCKISJAMMMY|<span style="color:Fuchsia;">DUCK</span><span style="color:blue;">IS</span><span style="color:Fuchsia;">JAMMMY</span>]]&#9734;&#9733; 13:52, 22 September 2012 (UTC)</small>
:<small class="delsort-notice">Note: This debate has been included in the [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Football|list of Football-related deletion discussions]]. &#9733;&#9734; [[User:DUCKISJAMMMY|<font color="Fuchsia">DUCK</font><font color="blue">IS</font><font color="Fuchsia">JAMMMY</font>]]&#9734;&#9733; 13:52, 22 September 2012 (UTC)</small>
:<small class="delsort-notice">Note: This debate has been included in the [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Football|list of Football-related deletion discussions]]. &#9733;&#9734; [[User:DUCKISJAMMMY|<span style="color:Fuchsia;">DUCK</span><span style="color:blue;">IS</span><span style="color:Fuchsia;">JAMMMY</span>]]&#9734;&#9733; 13:52, 22 September 2012 (UTC)</small>
:<small class="delsort-notice">Note: This debate has been included in the [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Sportspeople|list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions]]. &#9733;&#9734; [[User:DUCKISJAMMMY|<font color="Fuchsia">DUCK</font><font color="blue">IS</font><font color="Fuchsia">JAMMMY</font>]]&#9734;&#9733; 13:52, 22 September 2012 (UTC)</small>
:<small class="delsort-notice">Note: This debate has been included in the [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Sportspeople|list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions]]. &#9733;&#9734; [[User:DUCKISJAMMMY|<span style="color:Fuchsia;">DUCK</span><span style="color:blue;">IS</span><span style="color:Fuchsia;">JAMMMY</span>]]&#9734;&#9733; 13:52, 22 September 2012 (UTC)</small>
*'''Delete''' - fails [[WP:GNG]] and [[WP:NFOOTBALL]]. The deline of the speedy was wrong. [[User:GiantSnowman|Giant]][[User talk:GiantSnowman|Snowman]] 14:01, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' - fails [[WP:GNG]] and [[WP:NFOOTBALL]]. The deline of the speedy was wrong. [[User:GiantSnowman|Giant]][[User talk:GiantSnowman|Snowman]] 14:01, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
*'''Delete:''' Agree, the speedy should have stayed and this AfD should not be happening now but it is and this article fails NFOOTBALL and GNG. --[[User:Arsenalkid700|Arsenalkid700]] ([[User talk:Arsenalkid700|talk]]) 14:03, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
*'''Delete:''' Agree, the speedy should have stayed and this AfD should not be happening now but it is and this article fails NFOOTBALL and GNG. --[[User:Arsenalkid700|Arsenalkid700]] ([[User talk:Arsenalkid700|talk]]) 14:03, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' - per nom. Still fails [[WP:GNG]], still fails [[WP:NSPORT]]. [[User:Sir Sputnik|Sir Sputnik]] ([[User talk:Sir Sputnik|talk]]) 16:23, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' - per nom. Still fails [[WP:GNG]], still fails [[WP:NSPORT]]. [[User:Sir Sputnik|Sir Sputnik]] ([[User talk:Sir Sputnik|talk]]) 16:23, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' - Still fails [[WP:GNG]] and is a long way off passing [[WP:NFOOTBALL]]. Not a huge difference between this and the original.[[User:Blethering Scot|<font color="Maroon">Blethering</font>]] [[User talk:Blethering Scot|<font color="green">Scot</font>]] 16:54, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' - Still fails [[WP:GNG]] and is a long way off passing [[WP:NFOOTBALL]]. Not a huge difference between this and the original.[[User:Blethering Scot|<span style="color:Maroon;">Blethering</span>]] [[User talk:Blethering Scot|<span style="color:green;">Scot</span>]] 16:54, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' - Absurd to suggest player does not pass [[WP:GNG]]. [[User:Sgt Elvan|Sgt Elvan]] ([[User talk:Sgt Elvan|talk]]) 16:10, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' - Absurd to suggest player does not pass [[WP:GNG]]. [[User:Sgt Elvan|Sgt Elvan]] ([[User talk:Sgt Elvan|talk]]) 16:10, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
::Why? There are 8 references. 5 of the references are match reports, those are normal reports. 2 of the other references are just profiles... 1 of which dont even work. Only 1 reference really helps but that is it. --[[User:Arsenalkid700|Arsenalkid700]] ([[User talk:Arsenalkid700|talk]]) 17:02, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
::Why? There are 8 references. 5 of the references are match reports, those are normal reports. 2 of the other references are just profiles... 1 of which dont even work. Only 1 reference really helps but that is it. --[[User:Arsenalkid700|Arsenalkid700]] ([[User talk:Arsenalkid700|talk]]) 17:02, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
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:::Some more examples of coverage: Macleod signed a new contract a couple of weeks ago, coverage of that includes [http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/lewis-macleod-wants-to-repay-faith-1321873 This Daily Record piece about him and him alone], plus a number of stories in which he was very prominent e.g. [http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/19564270 BBC] [http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/sport/starlets-are-three-of-a-kind-that-will-give-ally-a-winning-hand.18904361 Glasgow Evening Times]. This is a different order of magnitude to the usual level of coverage for someone playing in that division, it is more akin to someone playing at a higher level like [[Andre Wisdom]]. I'm not suggesting Rangers players should be given a free pass, but when a team gets gates of 40,000 and has 20 league games a season shown by the UK's two main sports broadcasters ([http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2012/aug/03/espn-spl-rangers-contract?cat=football&type=article]), then those associated with it deserve a closer examination than a dismissive "fails WP:NFOOTY" type comment. [[User:Oldelpaso|Oldelpaso]] ([[User talk:Oldelpaso|talk]]) 11:36, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
:::Some more examples of coverage: Macleod signed a new contract a couple of weeks ago, coverage of that includes [http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/lewis-macleod-wants-to-repay-faith-1321873 This Daily Record piece about him and him alone], plus a number of stories in which he was very prominent e.g. [http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/19564270 BBC] [http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/sport/starlets-are-three-of-a-kind-that-will-give-ally-a-winning-hand.18904361 Glasgow Evening Times]. This is a different order of magnitude to the usual level of coverage for someone playing in that division, it is more akin to someone playing at a higher level like [[Andre Wisdom]]. I'm not suggesting Rangers players should be given a free pass, but when a team gets gates of 40,000 and has 20 league games a season shown by the UK's two main sports broadcasters ([http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2012/aug/03/espn-spl-rangers-contract?cat=football&type=article]), then those associated with it deserve a closer examination than a dismissive "fails WP:NFOOTY" type comment. [[User:Oldelpaso|Oldelpaso]] ([[User talk:Oldelpaso|talk]]) 11:36, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''. I'm not keen on making Rangers a special case because they still play in a league that is not fully professional, and this guy fails [[WP:NFOOTBALL]]. But he patently passes [[WP:GNG]], beyond simple match reports. [[User:Bretonbanquet|Bretonbanquet]] ([[User talk:Bretonbanquet|talk]]) 21:35, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''. I'm not keen on making Rangers a special case because they still play in a league that is not fully professional, and this guy fails [[WP:NFOOTBALL]]. But he patently passes [[WP:GNG]], beyond simple match reports. [[User:Bretonbanquet|Bretonbanquet]] ([[User talk:Bretonbanquet|talk]]) 21:35, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' This guy is one of the exceptions that breaks the usual rule. And I'm saying this as a leaning deletionist who's usually against the silly guidelines whereby a player instantly gets an article after playing one league cup game for a League Two club etc. Rangers are one of the two best supported clubs in Scotland (one of the best supported clubs in Europe). Any regular player for them will likely be all over national news regardless of the level the club play at. [[User:Delusion23|<font color="green">'''Del</font><big><sub><font color="black">♉</font></sub></big><font color="green">sion'''</font><font color="black">'''23'''</font>]] [[User talk:Delusion23|<font color="green">(talk)</font>]] 22:00, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' This guy is one of the exceptions that breaks the usual rule. And I'm saying this as a leaning deletionist who's usually against the silly guidelines whereby a player instantly gets an article after playing one league cup game for a League Two club etc. Rangers are one of the two best supported clubs in Scotland (one of the best supported clubs in Europe). Any regular player for them will likely be all over national news regardless of the level the club play at. [[User:Delusion23|'''<span style="color:green;">Del</span><big><sub style="color:black;">♉</sub></big><span style="color:green;">sion</span><span style="color:black;">23</span>''']] [[User talk:Delusion23|<span style="color:green;">(talk)</span>]] 22:00, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
*'''Comment''' - clearly fails [[WP:NSPORTS]] but I can't see any evidence online that he meets [[WP:GNG]]. There are a few mentions of him in match reports and by stats sites. If he has received significant coverage in offline sources, proof is required. [[User:Hack|Hack]] ([[User talk:Hack|talk]]) 02:38, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
*'''Comment''' - clearly fails [[WP:NSPORTS]] but I can't see any evidence online that he meets [[WP:GNG]]. There are a few mentions of him in match reports and by stats sites. If he has received significant coverage in offline sources, proof is required. [[User:Hack|Hack]] ([[User talk:Hack|talk]]) 02:38, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' Believe this is just the sort of article where WP needs to move with the times. Things change, a major club has been placed in a non-pro league. This does not detract from the fact that Rangers are an important and notable club. Players who play for them are notable. [[WP:NFOOTY]] says certain players are 'presumed notable'. It doesn't say others can't be.--[[User:Egghead06|Egghead06]] ([[User talk:Egghead06|talk]]) 05:52, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' Believe this is just the sort of article where WP needs to move with the times. Things change, a major club has been placed in a non-pro league. This does not detract from the fact that Rangers are an important and notable club. Players who play for them are notable. [[WP:NFOOTY]] says certain players are 'presumed notable'. It doesn't say others can't be.--[[User:Egghead06|Egghead06]] ([[User talk:Egghead06|talk]]) 05:52, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
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:::::::Half a line about Macleod is not significant coverage. <span>&ndash; [[User:Kosm1fent|<span style="color:#191970">'''Kosm'''</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Kosm1fent|<span style="color:#36454F">'''1'''</span>]][[User Talk:Kosm1fent|<span style="color:#00416A">'''fent'''</span>]]</span> 18:30, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
:::::::Half a line about Macleod is not significant coverage. <span>&ndash; [[User:Kosm1fent|<span style="color:#191970">'''Kosm'''</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Kosm1fent|<span style="color:#36454F">'''1'''</span>]][[User Talk:Kosm1fent|<span style="color:#00416A">'''fent'''</span>]]</span> 18:30, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
::::::::McCay is 17. I dont know about you guys but when it comes to players who are 21 or under and pass NFOOTY but fail GNG I just leave it because they are still to young (in McCays case... very young) and are assumed to eventually meet GNG. Not every player will have a huge article at the age of 17. --[[User:Arsenalkid700|Arsenalkid700]] ([[User talk:Arsenalkid700|talk]]) 19:13, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
::::::::McCay is 17. I dont know about you guys but when it comes to players who are 21 or under and pass NFOOTY but fail GNG I just leave it because they are still to young (in McCays case... very young) and are assumed to eventually meet GNG. Not every player will have a huge article at the age of 17. --[[User:Arsenalkid700|Arsenalkid700]] ([[User talk:Arsenalkid700|talk]]) 19:13, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
:::::::::There is absolutely no reason why Rangers should be and ever will be a special case. They either meet NFOOTY which for two years they wont or they meet [[WP:GNG]]. Rangers players will receive higher levels of coverage than other third divisions that is no doubt but match reports will always be trivial coverage by nature so there has to be more to meet [[WP:GNG]]. I have got a lower threshold than most i have to say, however I'm not being swayed much here because the majority of the arguments here are either trying to say we should make a special case here because its Rangers, which is ludicrous or they are not very strong statements. Remember the article looked like this[http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Lewis_Macleod_%28footballer%29&diff=514014904&oldid=513415650] which is exactly what it was like when deleted the first time, It was a clear speedy for most. The article now although far more informative does not meet [[WP:GNG]]. Rather than trying to argue special case which wont happen why not actually improve the article to show it meets GNG until then it should be deleted or userfied for improvement.[[User:Blethering Scot|<font color="Maroon">Blethering</font>]] [[User talk:Blethering Scot|<font color="green">Scot</font>]] 00:05, 26 September 2012 (UTC)
:::::::::There is absolutely no reason why Rangers should be and ever will be a special case. They either meet NFOOTY which for two years they wont or they meet [[WP:GNG]]. Rangers players will receive higher levels of coverage than other third divisions that is no doubt but match reports will always be trivial coverage by nature so there has to be more to meet [[WP:GNG]]. I have got a lower threshold than most i have to say, however I'm not being swayed much here because the majority of the arguments here are either trying to say we should make a special case here because its Rangers, which is ludicrous or they are not very strong statements. Remember the article looked like this[http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Lewis_Macleod_%28footballer%29&diff=514014904&oldid=513415650] which is exactly what it was like when deleted the first time, It was a clear speedy for most. The article now although far more informative does not meet [[WP:GNG]]. Rather than trying to argue special case which wont happen why not actually improve the article to show it meets GNG until then it should be deleted or userfied for improvement.[[User:Blethering Scot|<span style="color:Maroon;">Blethering</span>]] [[User talk:Blethering Scot|<span style="color:green;">Scot</span>]] 00:05, 26 September 2012 (UTC)
::::::::::oh and ive read through the sources, 18 of the 25 can totally be discounted for proving notability the others i would count towards are the ones talking around him signing new contract which is generally considered a trivial coverage although i don't totally discount it. Also I'm just not seeing enough coverage on different events that aren't match reports or go way beyond routine. I think as ive said all along alot of these young players ultimately after time will meet GNG no doubt, but until they do completely they should be treated like all the rest. I would prefer someone requested this be incubated and worked on it. At the end of the day if it was worked on properly maybe it could be done. Lets face it NFooty means nothing if an article can be proven to and clearly meets GNG, this article in its current state at this present time does not.[[User:Blethering Scot|<font color="Maroon">Blethering</font>]] [[User talk:Blethering Scot|<font color="green">Scot</font>]] 00:18, 26 September 2012 (UTC)
::::::::::oh and ive read through the sources, 18 of the 25 can totally be discounted for proving notability the others i would count towards are the ones talking around him signing new contract which is generally considered a trivial coverage although i don't totally discount it. Also I'm just not seeing enough coverage on different events that aren't match reports or go way beyond routine. I think as ive said all along alot of these young players ultimately after time will meet GNG no doubt, but until they do completely they should be treated like all the rest. I would prefer someone requested this be incubated and worked on it. At the end of the day if it was worked on properly maybe it could be done. Lets face it NFooty means nothing if an article can be proven to and clearly meets GNG, this article in its current state at this present time does not.[[User:Blethering Scot|<span style="color:Maroon;">Blethering</span>]] [[User talk:Blethering Scot|<span style="color:green;">Scot</span>]] 00:18, 26 September 2012 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' - fails the general [[WP:NSPORTS]] criteria as well as the football-specific notability criteria. Fails [[WP:GNG]] as the only coverage the subject has received beyond [[Wikipedia:Reliable_sources#Questionable_sources|standard tabloid fare]] is in routine match reports. The case for Rangers exceptionalism is not supported by the lack of reliable sources. [[User:Hack|Hack]] ([[User talk:Hack|talk]]) 01:04, 26 September 2012 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' - fails the general [[WP:NSPORTS]] criteria as well as the football-specific notability criteria. Fails [[WP:GNG]] as the only coverage the subject has received beyond [[Wikipedia:Reliable_sources#Questionable_sources|standard tabloid fare]] is in routine match reports. The case for Rangers exceptionalism is not supported by the lack of reliable sources. [[User:Hack|Hack]] ([[User talk:Hack|talk]]) 01:04, 26 September 2012 (UTC)
:::What would reliable sources regarding "Rangers exceptionalism" be? A third party source stating the Club's league attendance is [http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/scottish/rangers-topsyturvy-season-taking-a-heavy-toll-on-embattled-mccoist-8175958.htmlhttp://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/scottish/rangers-topsyturvy-season-taking-a-heavy-toll-on-embattled-mccoist-8175958.html "the 16th best in Europe"] perhaps? Or 55 times the [http://itv.stats.football365.com/dom/SCO/D3/attend.html combined average] of their league rivals? One couldn't imagine a more convincing case for "Rangers exceptionalism" if one tried. The 16th best-attended club in EUROPE, and their star young player isn't on Wikipedia? Oh well, guidelines are guidelines are guidelines. If the users suffer, tough luck. [[User:Gefetane|Gefetane]] ([[User talk:Gefetane|talk]]) 07:45, 26 September 2012 (UTC)
:::What would reliable sources regarding "Rangers exceptionalism" be? A third party source stating the Club's league attendance is [http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/scottish/rangers-topsyturvy-season-taking-a-heavy-toll-on-embattled-mccoist-8175958.htmlhttp://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/scottish/rangers-topsyturvy-season-taking-a-heavy-toll-on-embattled-mccoist-8175958.html "the 16th best in Europe"] perhaps? Or 55 times the [http://itv.stats.football365.com/dom/SCO/D3/attend.html combined average] of their league rivals? One couldn't imagine a more convincing case for "Rangers exceptionalism" if one tried. The 16th best-attended club in EUROPE, and their star young player isn't on Wikipedia? Oh well, guidelines are guidelines are guidelines. If the users suffer, tough luck. [[User:Gefetane|Gefetane]] ([[User talk:Gefetane|talk]]) 07:45, 26 September 2012 (UTC)
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::Is Lewis Macleod a prominent player enough player? YES - started all 12 games.
::Is Lewis Macleod a prominent player enough player? YES - started all 12 games.
::This seems to be a debate between on one hand wikipedia principles of Common sense/flexibility, on the other hand strict enforcement of guidelines to the letter. I'll remain interested on which side wins through. [[User:Gefetane|Gefetane]] ([[User talk:Gefetane|talk]]) 11:04, 27 September 2012 (UTC)
::This seems to be a debate between on one hand wikipedia principles of Common sense/flexibility, on the other hand strict enforcement of guidelines to the letter. I'll remain interested on which side wins through. [[User:Gefetane|Gefetane]] ([[User talk:Gefetane|talk]]) 11:04, 27 September 2012 (UTC)
::::What i cannot understand is why you are determined to prove the notability of the club, which is in no doubt at all. NFooty isn't even relevant as he does not meet it, all that leaves is the guideline that matters GNG. If you want to make amendments to the footy guideline then raise it at [[WP:Footy]]. in regards GNG, if you actually work on the article then maybe you can prove he does meet it. And i agree with Mentoz he isnt far off GNG which is a point ive made about Rangers, which is that with time these players will likely meet GNG but that time should be given.[[User:Blethering Scot|<font color="Maroon">Blethering</font>]] [[User talk:Blethering Scot|<font color="green">Scot</font>]] 18:57, 27 September 2012 (UTC)
::::What i cannot understand is why you are determined to prove the notability of the club, which is in no doubt at all. NFooty isn't even relevant as he does not meet it, all that leaves is the guideline that matters GNG. If you want to make amendments to the footy guideline then raise it at [[WP:Footy]]. in regards GNG, if you actually work on the article then maybe you can prove he does meet it. And i agree with Mentoz he isnt far off GNG which is a point ive made about Rangers, which is that with time these players will likely meet GNG but that time should be given.[[User:Blethering Scot|<span style="color:Maroon;">Blethering</span>]] [[User talk:Blethering Scot|<span style="color:green;">Scot</span>]] 18:57, 27 September 2012 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' - Non–notable Fourth Division footballer. [[User:Clavdia chauchat|Clavdia chauchat]] ([[User talk:Clavdia chauchat|talk]]) 18:50, 27 September 2012 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' - Non–notable Fourth Division footballer. [[User:Clavdia chauchat|Clavdia chauchat]] ([[User talk:Clavdia chauchat|talk]]) 18:50, 27 September 2012 (UTC)
*'''Neutral''' I'm widely seen as a deletionist when it comes to borderline players (I don't see myself as one, but others would put me in that camp). But even I think some of the rationales above are extreme. While I wouldn't go as far as to come off the fence and say that the player is notable, people who have argued delete need to have a long, hard think about the reasons they are giving. Some are suggesting that we ''completely'' disregard reliable match reports, appearances in televised games, and playing in front of tens of thousands of people as factors to at least ''consider'' when deciding if a player meets the GNG. I can see the argument for deletion, but not on those grounds.<p>If we're seriously looking at deletion, I would actually be more comfortable with an [[WP:IAR|IAR]] delete. It could be argued that deleting the minority of Rangers players who haven't played in a "fully-pro" league but ''might'' meet the GNG is preferable to opening ourselves up to allegations of pro-Rangers bias, and/or the floodgate to creations of non-notable players who have played at the same level of football. Perhaps for those reasons keeping this article is more trouble than its worth. But under the standards adhered to by some delete !voters above, a significant percentage of Football League players would not meet the GNG &ndash; a far larger percentage than I believe don't merit full-blown articles. —[[User talk:WaitingForConnection|WFC]]— <sub>'''[[User:WaitingForConnection/FL wishlist|FL wishlist]]'''</sub> 09:47, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
*'''Neutral''' I'm widely seen as a deletionist when it comes to borderline players (I don't see myself as one, but others would put me in that camp). But even I think some of the rationales above are extreme. While I wouldn't go as far as to come off the fence and say that the player is notable, people who have argued delete need to have a long, hard think about the reasons they are giving. Some are suggesting that we ''completely'' disregard reliable match reports, appearances in televised games, and playing in front of tens of thousands of people as factors to at least ''consider'' when deciding if a player meets the GNG. I can see the argument for deletion, but not on those grounds.<p>If we're seriously looking at deletion, I would actually be more comfortable with an [[WP:IAR|IAR]] delete. It could be argued that deleting the minority of Rangers players who haven't played in a "fully-pro" league but ''might'' meet the GNG is preferable to opening ourselves up to allegations of pro-Rangers bias, and/or the floodgate to creations of non-notable players who have played at the same level of football. Perhaps for those reasons keeping this article is more trouble than its worth. But under the standards adhered to by some delete !voters above, a significant percentage of Football League players would not meet the GNG &ndash; a far larger percentage than I believe don't merit full-blown articles. —[[User talk:WaitingForConnection|WFC]]— <sub>'''[[User:WaitingForConnection/FL wishlist|FL wishlist]]'''</sub> 09:47, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
::You could argue that keeping a players article because the club they play for is notable is an extreme view as well. Players should be given time to actually meet GNG and shouldn't be forced through on the basis the club is notable.[[User:Blethering Scot|<font color="Maroon">Blethering</font>]] [[User talk:Blethering Scot|<font color="green">Scot</font>]] 20:21, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
::You could argue that keeping a players article because the club they play for is notable is an extreme view as well. Players should be given time to actually meet GNG and shouldn't be forced through on the basis the club is notable.[[User:Blethering Scot|<span style="color:Maroon;">Blethering</span>]] [[User talk:Blethering Scot|<span style="color:green;">Scot</span>]] 20:21, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
:::How many players (with wikipedia pages) in the lower professional English leagues have, like Lewis Macleod, received person-specific articles in national newspapers? Not many I'd suggest. Any rule/guideline is bound to be undermined by an exceptional case every now and again - a club of Rangers' national/international profile in the 4th tier is exactly that. If a rule cannot be flexed on appropriate occasions, it is an ass. As far as I am aware, stringent adherence to guidelines is actively discouraged within Wikipedia. Why that message has bypassed so many in this discussion baffles me. [[User:Gefetane|Gefetane]] ([[User talk:Gefetane|talk]]) 20:42, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
:::How many players (with wikipedia pages) in the lower professional English leagues have, like Lewis Macleod, received person-specific articles in national newspapers? Not many I'd suggest. Any rule/guideline is bound to be undermined by an exceptional case every now and again - a club of Rangers' national/international profile in the 4th tier is exactly that. If a rule cannot be flexed on appropriate occasions, it is an ass. As far as I am aware, stringent adherence to guidelines is actively discouraged within Wikipedia. Why that message has bypassed so many in this discussion baffles me. [[User:Gefetane|Gefetane]] ([[User talk:Gefetane|talk]]) 20:42, 28 September 2012 (UTC)


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::::::With respect, you all miss the point. The "fully professional leagues" rule is fine EXCEPT for EXCEPTIONAL cases. Rangers in the 4th tier is - to any informed observer - the definition of an exceptional case. Therefore, Wikipedia's inherent flexibility regarding guidelines and exceptions - should be utilised for a player who's a regular (12 out of 12) First Team player. [[User:Gefetane|Gefetane]] ([[User talk:Gefetane|talk]]) 12:26, 29 September 2012 (UTC)
::::::With respect, you all miss the point. The "fully professional leagues" rule is fine EXCEPT for EXCEPTIONAL cases. Rangers in the 4th tier is - to any informed observer - the definition of an exceptional case. Therefore, Wikipedia's inherent flexibility regarding guidelines and exceptions - should be utilised for a player who's a regular (12 out of 12) First Team player. [[User:Gefetane|Gefetane]] ([[User talk:Gefetane|talk]]) 12:26, 29 September 2012 (UTC)
:::::::First, the FPL rule is far from fine. There are top-level leagues throughout the world with massive press and TV coverage of both clubs and players but whose players' articles, even where the player has many appearances, are deleted without a murmur because those leagues are not proven fully professional (and because, quite understandably this being the English Wikipedia, there are fewer editors with the language skills to expand those articles to meet GNG). Second, with respect, we don't all miss the point: some of us just don't agree with it. cheers, [[User:Struway2|Struway2]] ([[User talk:Struway2|talk]]) 12:47, 29 September 2012 (UTC)
:::::::First, the FPL rule is far from fine. There are top-level leagues throughout the world with massive press and TV coverage of both clubs and players but whose players' articles, even where the player has many appearances, are deleted without a murmur because those leagues are not proven fully professional (and because, quite understandably this being the English Wikipedia, there are fewer editors with the language skills to expand those articles to meet GNG). Second, with respect, we don't all miss the point: some of us just don't agree with it. cheers, [[User:Struway2|Struway2]] ([[User talk:Struway2|talk]]) 12:47, 29 September 2012 (UTC)
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]). No further edits should be made to this page. <!--Template:Afd bottom--></div>
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]). No further edits should be made to this page.'' <!--Template:Afd bottom--></div>

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