Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2009 January 25: Difference between revisions
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====[[:Deadstar Assembly]]==== |
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* '''[[:Deadstar Assembly]]''' – '''undeleted''' with consent of deleting admin; author to be given an opportunity to improve the article. Article to be relisted at Afd if not improved sufficiently. – [[User:Aervanath|Aervanath]] ([[User talk:Aervanath|talk]]) 09:49, 31 January 2009 (UTC) <!--*--> |
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| style="text-align:center;" | ''The following is an archived debate of the [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]] of the article above. <span style="color:red;">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span>'' |
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{{drvlinks|pg=Deadstar Assembly|ns=article}}<tt>)</tt> |
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Band_VERY_valid [[User:DeadstarAssembly|DeadstarAssembly]] ([[User talk:DeadstarAssembly|talk]]) 02:37, 26 January 2009 (UTC) |
Band_VERY_valid [[User:DeadstarAssembly|DeadstarAssembly]] ([[User talk:DeadstarAssembly|talk]]) 02:37, 26 January 2009 (UTC) |
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:The band was deleted as not being notable, per our [[WP:BAND|guidelines for musical groups]]. Do you have something which shows how they fit those guidelines? — <b>[[User:HandThatFeeds|<span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS; color:DarkBlue;cursor:help">The Hand That Feeds You |
:The band was deleted as not being notable, per our [[WP:BAND|guidelines for musical groups]]. Do you have something which shows how they fit those guidelines? — <b>[[User:HandThatFeeds|<span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS; color:DarkBlue;cursor:help">The Hand That Feeds You</span>]]:<sup>[[User talk:HandThatFeeds|Bite]]</sup></b> 08:43, 26 January 2009 (UTC) |
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*On the deletion review page, there is an instruction "Deletion Review is to be used '''where someone is unable to resolve the issue in discussion with the administrator (or other editor) in question'''. This should be attempted first – courteously invite the admin to take a second look". I haven't noticed this discussion taking place. While I'm aware that some users consider this an optional step, I would appreciate if the nominator could please explain why he omitted it (or, if there was a discussion that I missed, point it out)? [[User:Stifle|Stifle]] ([[User talk:Stifle/wizard|talk]]) 09:20, 26 January 2009 (UTC) |
*On the deletion review page, there is an instruction "Deletion Review is to be used '''where someone is unable to resolve the issue in discussion with the administrator (or other editor) in question'''. This should be attempted first – courteously invite the admin to take a second look". I haven't noticed this discussion taking place. While I'm aware that some users consider this an optional step, I would appreciate if the nominator could please explain why he omitted it (or, if there was a discussion that I missed, point it out)? [[User:Stifle|Stifle]] ([[User talk:Stifle/wizard|talk]]) 09:20, 26 January 2009 (UTC) |
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I have tried reviewing it with the administrator who deleted it and found that even providing hundreds of links that proove the bands standing wouldn't be enough for him, so he had suggested to do it via this method. So here's a shortened version of the information I have provided to him: |
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====[[:List of algal culture collections]]==== |
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The group have been around for 8 years and have appeared numerous times in publications both digital and print globally including such magazines as Zillo (germany), and Metal edge (United states). Also having toured the United States over a dozen times in that span, been sampled on numerous TV shows for stations such as VH1, MTV, and even ABC family, and have a pending release of its 3rd globally available album (retail, not only online), airplay on a global level on both satellite and air-broadcast radio, I would assume these would qualify them for a few of the criteria listed on the wikipedia's page of terms. |
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Below you will find a listing of just a fraction of the bands mention - |
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The bands listing on MTV |
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http://www.mtv.com/music/artist/deadstar_assembly/artist.jhtml |
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Proof of the bands contribution to a major video game |
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http://projectgothamracing3.com/gothammusic/Soundtrack+Samples.htm |
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Major music label #1 |
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http://www.purerecords.com/ |
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Major music label #2 (international) |
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http://www.dockyard1.com/deadstar/ |
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Proof of the bands endorsement with BC Rich Guitars |
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http://www.bcrich.com/artists.asp |
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Proof of the bands endorsement with Kustom Amplifiers |
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http://www.kustom.com/artist_main.aspx |
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Proof of the bands endorsement with SnapJack Cables |
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http://www.zzyzxsnapjack.com/artists.html |
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Proof of the bands endorsement with DDRums (Under artists section) |
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http://www.ddrum.com/main2.php |
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Proof of the bands endorsement with HotPicks USA |
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http://www.hotpicksusa.com/artists.cfm |
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Proof of the bands inclusion (the cover no less) if a German Magazine called "zillo" |
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https://www.zillo.de/cgi-bin/zillo2/shop/cgi/show_artikel.cgi?nextpage_params=&artikel=mag052006&prevpage=&pattern=&start=1&lang=deutsch&artikelid=&session=&warengruppe=64&pattern_ir=&nextpage= |
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(go to www.zillo.de to confirm the magazine as being not run via the band or an individual blog owner) <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:DeadstarAssembly|DeadstarAssembly]] ([[User talk:DeadstarAssembly|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/DeadstarAssembly|contribs]]) 09:47, 26 January 2009 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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Partial list of the bands touring history (Sadly unable to parse 8 years of touring data) |
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http://www.deadstar.com/tour/past_dates.php |
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Amazon.com |
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http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_gw?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=deadstar+assembly&x=0&y=0 |
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Simple google search for a review of the bands last album |
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http://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&channel=s&hl=en&q=deadstar+assembly+unsaved+reviews&btnG=Google+Search |
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Bands large list of videos on youtube (some with almost 200k views per) |
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http://www.youtube.com/results?search_type=&search_query=deadstar+assembly&aq=-1&oq= |
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Bands listing on Rolling stone |
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http://www.rollingstone.com/reviews/album/10748864/unsaved |
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List of articles on blabbermouth (a major label run music blog) |
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http://www.roadrunnerrecords.com/blabbermouth.net/news.aspx?mode=Search&searchtext=deadstar+assembly&x=0&y=0 |
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I can provide more if it would help show the standing of the group. |
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<small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:DeadstarAssembly|DeadstarAssembly]] ([[User talk:DeadstarAssembly|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/DeadstarAssembly|contribs]]) 09:29, 26 January 2009 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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*I can't see any discussions with the administrator in [[Special:Contributions/DeadstarAssembly|your contributions]]. Can you point out where they took place? [[User:Stifle|Stifle]] ([[User talk:Stifle/wizard|talk]]) 09:46, 26 January 2009 (UTC) |
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Via email correspondence. |
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*This is the deleting admin. I can confirm that I was contacted by e-mail regarding this deletion, but I have not had time to review the last three e-mails I received, and will not be able to until this afternoon or this evening. I will outline my justification for deletion (and my decision to decline restoration) at that time, but for now, admins can view the article through the deleted history. What I deleted was an unreferenced wreck, which had already been previously deleted twice before, including an AFD which closed as a speedy delete. '''[[User:Horologium|<span style="color:DarkSlateGray;">Horologium</span>]]''' <small>[[User talk:Horologium|(talk)]]</small> 14:28, 26 January 2009 (UTC) |
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*Any mainstream media coverage? [[User:Stifle|Stifle]] ([[User talk:Stifle/wizard|talk]]) 15:34, 26 January 2009 (UTC) |
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*'''Note''' — above account has been indefed for being a promotion-only account [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User_talk:DeadstarAssembly&diff=266523632&oldid=266492094 here]. [[User talk:MuZemike|MuZemike]] 18:24, 26 January 2009 (UTC) |
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:*'''Deleting admin's response:''' To answer Stifle's question, there doesn't appear to be much ''mainstream'' coverage, but there is a lot of non-notable webzine reviews and the like. The number of GHits for the band is substantial, but it's mostly fancruft. (Almost all of the reviews are to 'zines which lack Wikipedia articles). There is a cursory review of their second album at [[About.com]] ([http://heavymetal.about.com/od/cdreviews/fr/deadstarassembl.htm]) and a review at [[Blogcritics]] ([http://blogcritics.org/archives/2006/07/15/151647.php]), but I didn't find anything else that was worthwhile. (There are a lot of lists which prove that the band exists, but nothing other than track listings and lists of the members of the band (all monosyllabic stage names, no real names anywhere). The MTV link cited above is nothing more than a scrape of the [[Allmusic]] mini-bio of the group. The only really notable factoid is the inclusion of one of their songs on the soundtrack to [[Project Gotham Racing 3]]; everything else only confirms that they exist, not that they are notable. FWIW, there is an article on de.wiki for ''[[w:de:Zillo|Zillo]]'', so that may be something worth pursuing. My two dozen word German vocabulary is not going to be worth much; perhaps a German speaker can take a look. |
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:*I should also point out that in his initial request for restoration, the user's rationale was: ''Sadly we are unable to find the exact reason for these actions'' [the deletions]'', and request that all deleted material be re-posted as soon as possible as it is a vital source of information used by the fanbase to keep up to date on the band activities.'' I directed him to [[Wikipedia:PROMOTION#Wikipedia_is_not_a_soapbox|points four and five]] of [[WP:SOAP]], which address self-promotion and advertising. The band's MySpace and Facebook pages are appropriate as a way for fans to keep track of the band; Wikipedia is not. |
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:*I will be dropping a note on the blocked user's talkpage encouraging him to create an account with a non-promotional username; I don't feel right about blocking him during a discussion, even though I stand by my original deletion of the articles on the band and its three albums.It just seems a bit petty to indef block him straightaway, although the username needed to be changed. '''[[User:Horologium|<span style="color:DarkSlateGray;">Horologium</span>]]''' <small>[[User talk:Horologium|(talk)]]</small> 21:13, 26 January 2009 (UTC) |
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Zillo is a German based print magazine, thus why it was listed as a viable source of mainstream recognition (maybe not an American mainstream, but in Germany it has been running for over 2 decades). There are several other publications of which the group have been featured in both nationally and internationally, but since they are all print, there are no digital reproductions of them on the magazines websites. <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Elblots|Elblots]] ([[User talk:Elblots|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Elblots|contribs]]) 21:58, 26 January 2009 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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:Can you specify the titles and the issues? If they are notable, they will be archived in libraries, and the articles can be verified. It appears that you are not differentiating between ''mentions'' of the band and ''coverage'' of the band, which are two different things. ''Mentions'' of the band are fine if one is trying to establish that the band exists; we're past that—everyone agrees that the band exists. However, there is no ''discussion'' of the band in reliable sources; the ''Rolling Stone'' link you provided above has no discussion of the band, only a listing of the songs on the album (which was not reviewed by the magazine). The touring list is from the band's website, not a valid source; nor is the YouTube channel. The handful of mentions at the blabbermouth site are undermined by the disclaimer at the bottom stating that it is not affiliated with Roadrunner Records, and they are not responsible for any of its content. All of the links you provide for "endorsements" simply show that the band exists; they don't discuss the band at all. |
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:A recent deletion discussion was [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/A Rocket to the Moon]], another band. Like Deadstar Assembly, they don't have much in the way of mainstream coverage, although a GHit check returned >400K hits. None of them were notable, and like DA, the band's article had already been deleted more than once. The deletion was [[Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2009 January 18|effectively endorsed]] at the deletion review earlier this month was "no consensus to overturn". Again, like Deadstar Assembly, there was little in the way of [[WP:RS|reliable sources]] in the article (it at least had some citations, albeit not to appropriate sources), and the deleting admin was willing to userfy the article. I will extend to you the same offer. '''[[User:Horologium|<span style="color:DarkSlateGray;">Horologium</span>]]''' <small>[[User talk:Horologium|(talk)]]</small> 22:31, 26 January 2009 (UTC) |
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The magazine posted above has the band on the cover, and thus indicates that there is more than just a mention of them. The specific article is archived (partially due to them being a print magazine and thus wont post the entire article online) on their page at the following URL (in german however) |
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http://www.zillo.de/magazin/mags/052006/magazin_leseproben_052006_deadstar_assembly.html |
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Issue # 05/2006 Pages 12-18. Article title: Deadstar Assembly - Bizarr und intemsiv" |
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In the meantime I will provide you with a link to another Euro based print magazine of which the band was featured |
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http://devolutionmagazine.co.uk/issues.htm (issue #10). Pages 40-41..a 2 page interview with the band. |
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And another euro based print magazine called "rimfrost" of which the band was featured: |
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http://www.gothic.no/rimfrost.htm Issue 12. pages 7-12. Another interview with the band titled - Deadstar Assembly En Giftig blanding av death-pop og goth-rock" |
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http://www.metalhammer.co.uk/ featured the band in their June 2006 issue (waiting on exact page #) |
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http://www.caustictruths.com/ an american print magazine which featured the band on page 54 of issue # 107. |
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http://www.sonic-seducer.de/index.php another german magazine that had a 2 page feature on the group. Waiting on exact issue #. |
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Orkus magazine featured the band on pages 48-49 in the following issue: |
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http://www.orkus.de/index_d.php?siteId=backissues&vonEg=15&wievielEintraege=15# |
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Issue - 2006-05 |
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Article title - Deadstar Assembly (Newcomer des Monats) |
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http://www.orkus.de/ (original site for reference) |
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<small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Elblots|Elblots]] ([[User talk:Elblots|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Elblots|contribs]]) 21:05, 27 January 2009 (UTC)</span></small> |
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*Since the deleting admin mentioned Project Gotham Racing. I believe this meets [[WP:MUSIC]]#10: "Has performed music for a work of media that is notable, e.g. a theme for a network television show, performance in a television show or notable film, inclusion on a compilation album, etc. (But if this is the only claim, it is probably more appropriate to have a mention in the main article and redirect to that article.)" We could redirect, but deletion is not suitable. - [[User:MacGyverMagic|Mgm]]|[[User talk:MacGyverMagic|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 05:58, 27 January 2009 (UTC) |
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*:That needs to be verified, though. [[User:Stifle|Stifle]] ([[User talk:Stifle/wizard|talk]]) 09:21, 27 January 2009 (UTC) |
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::*That ''has'' been verified, by the link that was provided above, from the game's official website; it ''wasn't'' cited in the article at the time I deleted it, although there was a passing mention. The website doesn't discuss the band, but includes a 30 second sample of one of their songs and a link to the band's website. I'm not sure that the inclusion in a video game alone is enough to confer notability; it's not a theme or a performance in a notable movie/TV show, and it's not from a compilation album; it's one of 90 tracks from a video game, albeit a notable one. I'm not opposed to restoring the article, but the sources that are available are of extremely low quality. '''[[User:Horologium|<span style="color:DarkSlateGray;">Horologium</span>]]''' <small>[[User talk:Horologium|(talk)]]</small> 11:56, 27 January 2009 (UTC) |
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added a few magazine references above <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Elblots|Elblots]] ([[User talk:Elblots|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Elblots|contribs]]) 21:05, 27 January 2009 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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*After looking at the new crop of references added today, I believe that this group *is* notable enough for inclusion; it seems to have a lot of coverage in European music magazines, especially that feature article in [[w:de:Zillo|Zillo]]. There is an article on the band on de.wiki at [[w:de:Deadstar Assembly]], but it's as crappy as the one here (it claims the band is from [[South Beach]], not [[Fort Lauderdale]]); [[w:pt:Deadstar Assembly]] (Portuguese) is a sub-stub. It's frustrating that the article had to be nuked before any semblance of sourcing could be produced, and that it had to come from someone with a financial interest in the band. This article,if retained, needs to be totally rewritten and referenced (preferably by someone with an understanding of German and no CoI issues.) [[WP:INDUSTRIAL|WikiProject:Industrial (Music)]] might be able to help, since this is their genre. '''[[User:Horologium|<span style="color:DarkSlateGray;">Horologium</span>]]''' <small>[[User talk:Horologium|(talk)]]</small> 22:40, 27 January 2009 (UTC) |
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Also proof of the bands inclusion in the ABC Movie "Picture This" - |
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTB39MwFTe4 |
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at 5:32 in the above video. |
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The song referenced is "Just Like You" which can be confrimed via streaming on our last fm page: |
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http://www.last.fm/music/Deadstar+Assembly <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Elblots|Elblots]] ([[User talk:Elblots|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Elblots|contribs]]) 23:47, 27 January 2009 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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More references: |
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X Tra X Guitar Deadstar Assembly Guitar Giveaway in Germany |
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http://www.x-tra-x.de/gallery/index.php?pageType=folder&currDir=./Deadstar-Assembly-Gitarren-Verlosung |
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Zillo Magazine Info: (newer article from very recently) |
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Dezember/Januar 2009 - 12/08-01/09, 20. Jahrgang |
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Page 8 News |
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Page 10 Die Szene kocht: DeadStar Assembly |
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Page 48 DVDs: DeadStar Assembly "Dark Hole Sessions Vol. 2" DVD Review <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Elblots|Elblots]] ([[User talk:Elblots|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Elblots|contribs]]) 00:11, 28 January 2009 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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*'''Undelete and relist''' at AFD, the references here give some plausible suggestion of possible notability. [[User:Stifle|Stifle]] ([[User talk:Stifle/wizard|talk]]) 09:08, 28 January 2009 (UTC) |
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So what is the next course of action? If reinstated I will re-write the article to make it properly referenced as to meet the requirements of Wikipedia. <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Elblots|Elblots]] ([[User talk:Elblots|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Elblots|contribs]]) 18:53, 29 January 2009 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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* '''[[:List of algal culture collections]]''' – "No Consensus" closure endorsed. No predjudice against relisting at AfD. – [[User:Eluchil404|Eluchil404]] ([[User talk:Eluchil404|talk]]) 22:56, 31 January 2009 (UTC) <!--*--> |
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| style="text-align:center;" | ''The following is an archived debate of the [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]] of the article above. <span style="color:red;">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span>'' |
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{{drvlinks|pg=List of algal culture collections|ns=Article}}<tt>)</tt> |
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*'''Maintain no-consensus'''. I can find me in DGG's opinion. If someone thinks an article can be improved, they should get the chance to do so. Concerns about the links can be met by adding {{tl|NOINDEX}} while work is ongoing. -[[User:MacGyverMagic|Mgm]]|[[User talk:MacGyverMagic|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 09:00, 26 January 2009 (UTC) |
*'''Maintain no-consensus'''. I can find me in DGG's opinion. If someone thinks an article can be improved, they should get the chance to do so. Concerns about the links can be met by adding {{tl|NOINDEX}} while work is ongoing. -[[User:MacGyverMagic|Mgm]]|[[User talk:MacGyverMagic|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 09:00, 26 January 2009 (UTC) |
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*'''Overturn and delete'''. The arguments in support of maintaining this linkfarm were in the [[WP:USEFUL]] family and should have been given less weight. [[User:Stifle|Stifle]] ([[User talk:Stifle/wizard|talk]]) 09:22, 26 January 2009 (UTC) |
*'''Overturn and delete'''. The arguments in support of maintaining this linkfarm were in the [[WP:USEFUL]] family and should have been given less weight. [[User:Stifle|Stifle]] ([[User talk:Stifle/wizard|talk]]) 09:22, 26 January 2009 (UTC) |
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*'''Weak overturn to delete''' Statistically the AfD is even, but none of the keep arguments even bothered citing any sort of policy. As Stifle said, they were just of the [[WP:USEFUL]] variety. The only arguments citing policy (correctly, in my opinion) were the arguments to delete. [[User:Themfromspace|Themfromspace]] ([[User talk:Themfromspace|talk]]) 11:02, 26 January 2009 (UTC) |
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*'''endorse close''' Per DGG. Give them time to fix it up. [[WP:DEADLINE|there is no deadline]]. [[User:JoshuaZ|JoshuaZ]] ([[User talk:JoshuaZ|talk]]) 15:12, 26 January 2009 (UTC) |
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*'''endorse close''' per DGG. A good and well written article could exist here. [[User:Hobit|Hobit]] ([[User talk:Hobit|talk]]) 15:26, 27 January 2009 (UTC) |
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*'''Regrettable endorse close''' here's one that I think strongly ought to be deleted, but the community was mixed, hence "no consensus". Much of the keep spirit was animated by the much heralded and promised expansion. Give it a month or two, as DGG says, and if it's not improved it should go and those promising improvement slapped with a [[WP:TROUT]]. [[User:Carlossuarez46|Carlossuarez46]] ([[User talk:Carlossuarez46|talk]]) 19:29, 27 January 2009 (UTC) |
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*'''Endorse''' "no conensus" as reading the discussion indicates that the will of the community is neither to keep nor delete and as default we keep in such instances. Best, --[[User:A Nobody|A Nobody]]<sup>''[[User talk:A Nobody|My talk]]''</sup> 21:31, 29 January 2009 (UTC) |
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*'''Overturn and delete''' The "keep" !votes claim that "reformatting" will solve the problems, but they give no method of doing so. Reading the debate, those in favor of deletion are well-supported in policy by [[WP:NOT]]; the arguments for keep are rather unconvincing. If you just read the vote count, it's 4-3 in favor of deletion, which would result in a "no consensus" close if all things were equal, but they're not. This is one of those cases where, even if everyone but the nominator were arguing for keep, I would still have closed as delete. The keep arguments in this case are indeed that weak.--[[User:Aervanath|Aervanath]] ([[User talk:Aervanath|talk]]) 15:37, 30 January 2009 (UTC) |
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====[[Eric Violette]]==== |
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* '''[[Eric Violette]]''' – '''keep deleted'''. Early close per [[WP:SNOW]]. – [[User:Aervanath|Aervanath]] ([[User talk:Aervanath|talk]]) 03:13, 28 January 2009 (UTC) <!--*--> |
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Creation of this article has been permanently blocked since July 2008 because of repeated recreations without establishing notability. I have an article sitting in my [[User:Americasroof/Sandbox]] which I believes establishes notability including a IMDB profile and a New York Times story. A google search on the guy's name produces more than 500,000 hits. He has done a movie in addition to his commercials. I was not part of the previous articles. If people still have a problem with him it should go to afd rather than being permanently blocked by one administrator. [[User:Americasroof|Americasroof]] ([[User talk:Americasroof|talk]]) 18:02, 25 January 2009 (UTC) |
Creation of this article has been permanently blocked since July 2008 because of repeated recreations without establishing notability. I have an article sitting in my [[User:Americasroof/Sandbox]] which I believes establishes notability including a IMDB profile and a New York Times story. A google search on the guy's name produces more than 500,000 hits. He has done a movie in addition to his commercials. I was not part of the previous articles. If people still have a problem with him it should go to afd rather than being permanently blocked by one administrator. [[User:Americasroof|Americasroof]] ([[User talk:Americasroof|talk]]) 18:02, 25 January 2009 (UTC) |
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*'''Comment''' I checked the NY Times article, but Eric Violette does not appear in it. May I suggest you tighten your citations before asking that the article be unsalted? [[User:Timtrent|Fiddle Faddle]] ([[User talk:Timtrent|talk]]) 18:09, 25 January 2009 (UTC) |
*'''Comment''' I checked the NY Times article, but Eric Violette does not appear in it. May I suggest you tighten your citations before asking that the article be unsalted? [[User:Timtrent|Fiddle Faddle]] ([[User talk:Timtrent|talk]]) 18:09, 25 January 2009 (UTC) |
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*'''Keep deleted'''. The NYT article doesn't mention the subject, the imdb link offered says he played a nameless character in one film, as does [http://www.imdb.com/name/nm3082393/ this imdb link] and there's nothing in [http://news.google.co.uk/archivesearch?as_q=&num=100&hl=en&btnG=Search+Archives&as_epq=eric+violette&as_oq=&as_eq=&as_user_ldate=&as_user_hdate=&lr=&as_src=&as_price=p0&as_scoring= the Google News archive] about ''this'' Eric Violette, which I'm sure there would be for any notable 21st century American actor. I just wish people would realise that the cool thing these days is to get your Wikipedia article deleted, rather than to have an article. [[User:Phil Bridger|Phil Bridger]] ([[User talk:Phil Bridger|talk]]) 19:44, 25 January 2009 (UTC) |
*'''Keep deleted'''. The NYT article doesn't mention the subject, the imdb link offered says he played a nameless character in one film, as does [http://www.imdb.com/name/nm3082393/ this imdb link] and there's nothing in [http://news.google.co.uk/archivesearch?as_q=&num=100&hl=en&btnG=Search+Archives&as_epq=eric+violette&as_oq=&as_eq=&as_user_ldate=&as_user_hdate=&lr=&as_src=&as_price=p0&as_scoring= the Google News archive] about ''this'' Eric Violette, which I'm sure there would be for any notable 21st century American actor. I just wish people would realise that the cool thing these days is to get your Wikipedia article deleted, rather than to have an article. [[User:Phil Bridger|Phil Bridger]] ([[User talk:Phil Bridger|talk]]) 19:44, 25 January 2009 (UTC) |
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*'''Endorse deletion''' per Fiddle Faddle. [[User:Swatjester|< |
*'''Endorse deletion''' per Fiddle Faddle. [[User:Swatjester|<span style="color:red;">⇒</span>]][[User_talk:Swatjester|<span style="font-family:Euclid Fraktur;"><span style="color:black;">SWAT</span><span style="color:goldenrod;">Jester</span></span>]] [[WP:DC|<small><sup>Son of the Defender</sup></small>]] 20:22, 25 January 2009 (UTC) |
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*'''Endorse''' and do not reintroduce the article at this time in the current state as indicated in the sandbox. Also (immaterial), I only get 13,000 gHits doing a search under "Eric Violette" in quotes. [[User talk:MuZemike|MuZemike]] 04:20, 26 January 2009 (UTC) |
*'''Endorse''' and do not reintroduce the article at this time in the current state as indicated in the sandbox. Also (immaterial), I only get 13,000 gHits doing a search under "Eric Violette" in quotes. [[User talk:MuZemike|MuZemike]] 04:20, 26 January 2009 (UTC) |
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*'''Keep deleted''' [http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0945608/ IMDB] apparently doesn't know which character he plays in the French-language Canadian film mentioned and several sites have him near the bottom of the list of cast members which doesn't really help in establishing whether is part was relevant. His personal site isn't reliable for anything but personal details (age, birth name, etc), Maholo contains user-submitted data and isn't reliable and the NYT article doesn't mention Violette. In short: there's no reliable sources to build an article with.- [[User:MacGyverMagic|Mgm]]|[[User talk:MacGyverMagic|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 09:12, 26 January 2009 (UTC) |
*'''Keep deleted''' [http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0945608/ IMDB] apparently doesn't know which character he plays in the French-language Canadian film mentioned and several sites have him near the bottom of the list of cast members which doesn't really help in establishing whether is part was relevant. His personal site isn't reliable for anything but personal details (age, birth name, etc), Maholo contains user-submitted data and isn't reliable and the NYT article doesn't mention Violette. In short: there's no reliable sources to build an article with.- [[User:MacGyverMagic|Mgm]]|[[User talk:MacGyverMagic|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 09:12, 26 January 2009 (UTC) |
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*'''Keep deleted'''. The NYT article is a red herring; there's no mention of him there. None of the other refs are reliable sources. [[User:Stifle|Stifle]] ([[User talk:Stifle/wizard|talk]]) 09:23, 26 January 2009 (UTC) |
*'''Keep deleted'''. The NYT article is a red herring; there's no mention of him there. None of the other refs are reliable sources. [[User:Stifle|Stifle]] ([[User talk:Stifle/wizard|talk]]) 09:23, 26 January 2009 (UTC) |
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*'''This has been salted longer than [[WP:SALT]] permits''' This article has been salted for''' nearly six months'''. The WP:SALT policy says "Non-existent pages may be protected, for '''limited periods of time'''" By any stretch of the imagination six months is a long time in Wikipedia terms. Comments here are judging my sandbox item. If that is the case, then the article should be judged via the '''AFD process''' and not prempted here. Whether you find 500,000 or 30,000 hits on the [http://www.google.com/search?q=Eric+Violette&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=com.ubuntu:en-US:unofficial&client=firefox-a google search], there is clearly interest in him. There are several radio interviews with him. My initial interest was doing an article about the ad agency and its copywriter who wrote several famous campaigns (and contrasting the ad with questionable practices (e.g., the credit reports are not "free"). The salting process is very osbscure on wikipedia. This is the first time I have encountered it and it is very difficult to figure out what to do once you encounter a salt item. The help screens are not clear at all on this. Therefore I ask that you unsalt the name and then if you wish put the article up for afd. The fact that so many apparently different editors have tried to write to the article is an indication in interest. Eventually one of them will probably get it right. If you want you can throw prods on them but the article definitely should not be salted. [[User:Americasroof|Americasroof]] ([[User talk:Americasroof|talk]]) 11:20, 26 January 2009 (UTC) |
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*'''endorse deletion for now''' Once something has been salted it is a good idea to have a functioning article. I'm a bit annoyed that the user came to us with a nominating statement that mentioned a New York Times article without mentioning that the individual in question was not mentioned at all. The editor says they are uncertain about what to do after salting. The answer is simple: create an article in a sandbox that at least seems to be meet [[WP:N|notability]] (in this case [[WP:BIO]]). If there are additional sources such as radio interviews with the individual then cite them in that draft. That should be enough to allow for recreation. [[User:JoshuaZ|JoshuaZ]] ([[User talk:JoshuaZ|talk]]) 15:16, 26 January 2009 (UTC) |
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====[[:List of Palestinian fatalities resulting from Israeli attacks on the Gaza Strip in 2008]]==== |
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* '''[[:List of Palestinian fatalities resulting from Israeli attacks on the Gaza Strip in 2008]]''' – '''early close''' per [[WP:SNOW]]. No arguments presented that process was not followed. – [[User:Aervanath|Aervanath]] ([[User talk:Aervanath|talk]]) 03:11, 28 January 2009 (UTC) <!--*--> |
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*'''Endorse deletion'''. I was the nominator, so declare my interest, such as it is. I saw the article become greatly improved during the AfD, but it was, for me, still way on the wrong side of the "keep" fence. I see a good closing rationale, support the fact that there is a deletion review because this is inherently a good process, and find the review reason to be somewhat harsh. [[User:Timtrent|Fiddle Faddle]] ([[User talk:Timtrent|talk]]) 13:49, 25 January 2009 (UTC) |
*'''Endorse deletion'''. I was the nominator, so declare my interest, such as it is. I saw the article become greatly improved during the AfD, but it was, for me, still way on the wrong side of the "keep" fence. I see a good closing rationale, support the fact that there is a deletion review because this is inherently a good process, and find the review reason to be somewhat harsh. [[User:Timtrent|Fiddle Faddle]] ([[User talk:Timtrent|talk]]) 13:49, 25 January 2009 (UTC) |
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::'''Note''' I have no personal bias in this conflict. I see all such conflicts as damaging and wrong. I do not have the knowledge to be biased in favour of or against either party. My only interest here is in Wikipedia articles. I did not see any systemic bias in the various arguments raised. Any pro and anti participant comments seemed to me to even each other out, broadly. [[User:Timtrent|Fiddle Faddle]] ([[User talk:Timtrent|talk]]) 14:12, 25 January 2009 (UTC) |
::'''Note''' I have no personal bias in this conflict. I see all such conflicts as damaging and wrong. I do not have the knowledge to be biased in favour of or against either party. My only interest here is in Wikipedia articles. I did not see any systemic bias in the various arguments raised. Any pro and anti participant comments seemed to me to even each other out, broadly. [[User:Timtrent|Fiddle Faddle]] ([[User talk:Timtrent|talk]]) 14:12, 25 January 2009 (UTC) |
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*If that is the only argument to be advanced here, I '''endorse my own closure'''. If anything, far from suffering from neglect because of systemic bias, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is probably the most extensively covered current conflict on Wikipedia. I've, incidentally, userfied the article following the discussion at [[User talk:Sandstein#Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Palestinian fatalities resulting from Israeli attacks on the Gaza Strip in 200]]. <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Sandstein|< |
*If that is the only argument to be advanced here, I '''endorse my own closure'''. If anything, far from suffering from neglect because of systemic bias, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is probably the most extensively covered current conflict on Wikipedia. I've, incidentally, userfied the article following the discussion at [[User talk:Sandstein#Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Palestinian fatalities resulting from Israeli attacks on the Gaza Strip in 200]]. <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Sandstein|<span style="color:white;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Sandstein '''</span>]]</span></small> 14:06, 25 January 2009 (UTC) |
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**'''Comment''' You appear to have misinterpreted my reference to [[WP:BIAS]]. I am suggesting that there is an imbalance in coverage of the subject, not that the subject is neglected. Please see [[User:Cvrx|Cvrx's]] comments in the [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Palestinian fatalities resulting from Israeli attacks on the Gaza Strip in 2008|log]]. [[User:Trachys|Trachys]] ([[User talk:Trachys|talk]]) 05:55, 26 January 2009 (UTC) |
**'''Comment''' You appear to have misinterpreted my reference to [[WP:BIAS]]. I am suggesting that there is an imbalance in coverage of the subject, not that the subject is neglected. Please see [[User:Cvrx|Cvrx's]] comments in the [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Palestinian fatalities resulting from Israeli attacks on the Gaza Strip in 2008|log]]. [[User:Trachys|Trachys]] ([[User talk:Trachys|talk]]) 05:55, 26 January 2009 (UTC) |
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::*That is a "keep" argument that belongs in the AfD itself. It is not an argument relevant at DRV, where what matters only is whether I erred in establishing consensus in the AfD. <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Sandstein|<span style="color:white;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Sandstein '''</span>]]</span></small> 16:25, 26 January 2009 (UTC) |
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*'''endorse''', good close. [[User:Spartaz|Spartaz]] <sup>''[[User talk:Spartaz|Humbug!]]''</sup> 14:13, 25 January 2009 (UTC) |
*'''endorse''', good close. [[User:Spartaz|Spartaz]] <sup>''[[User talk:Spartaz|Humbug!]]''</sup> 14:13, 25 January 2009 (UTC) |
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*'''Endorse''', consensus was read properly. Systemic bias doesn't come into it. [[User:Stifle|Stifle]] ([[User talk:Stifle/wizard|talk]]) 15:55, 25 January 2009 (UTC) |
*'''Endorse''', consensus was read properly. Systemic bias doesn't come into it. [[User:Stifle|Stifle]] ([[User talk:Stifle/wizard|talk]]) 15:55, 25 January 2009 (UTC) |
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*'''Endorse''' I don't see a valid reason to overturn raised. [[User:Swatjester|< |
*'''Endorse''' I don't see a valid reason to overturn raised. [[User:Swatjester|<span style="color:red;">⇒</span>]][[User_talk:Swatjester|<span style="font-family:Euclid Fraktur;"><span style="color:black;">SWAT</span><span style="color:goldenrod;">Jester</span></span>]] [[WP:DC|<small><sup>Son of the Defender</sup></small>]] 20:19, 25 January 2009 (UTC) |
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*'''Question''' It sounds like the article improved considerably during the AfD. Could we get a history undelete or userification of the article so it can be seen in its final state as what I'm seeing in the cache looks older. At the moment it looks like the discussion was leaning hard toward no consensous (about split on !votes), but it is hard to judge the strength of the arguments without seeing the article. [[User:Hobit|Hobit]] ([[User talk:Hobit|talk]]) 01:12, 26 January 2009 (UTC) |
*'''Question''' It sounds like the article improved considerably during the AfD. Could we get a history undelete or userification of the article so it can be seen in its final state as what I'm seeing in the cache looks older. At the moment it looks like the discussion was leaning hard toward no consensous (about split on !votes), but it is hard to judge the strength of the arguments without seeing the article. [[User:Hobit|Hobit]] ([[User talk:Hobit|talk]]) 01:12, 26 January 2009 (UTC) |
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:* Further, I'm a bit worried about deletion for content reasons. If the article was too detailed, it seems likely clipping things would have done a better job rather than deleting the whole thing. But again, I'd want to see the article. [[User:Hobit|Hobit]] ([[User talk:Hobit|talk]]) 01:12, 26 January 2009 (UTC) |
:* Further, I'm a bit worried about deletion for content reasons. If the article was too detailed, it seems likely clipping things would have done a better job rather than deleting the whole thing. But again, I'd want to see the article. [[User:Hobit|Hobit]] ([[User talk:Hobit|talk]]) 01:12, 26 January 2009 (UTC) |
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::*It's been userfied at [[User:Timeshifter/List of Palestinian fatalities resulting from Israeli attacks on the Gaza Strip in 2008]]. <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Sandstein|<span style="color:white;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Sandstein '''</span>]]</span></small> 16:21, 26 January 2009 (UTC) |
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:::*'''reluctant endorse of deletion''' (Sorry I missed the userfication above) I think something like this could and should exist and I've have !voted to keep the article (but trim to that which is sourced as this is certainly a controversial topic, though I'd consider the PNN an acceptable if not idea source). But arguments for deletion in the AfD were reasonable (if wrong IMO) and thus the close was reasonable... Strongly recommend someone sit down and try to write a better version of this. [[User:Hobit|Hobit]] ([[User talk:Hobit|talk]]) 15:23, 27 January 2009 (UTC) |
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*'''Endorse deletion''' the closer got it right; there seems to be no real answer to the fundamental objections to the article: the one most encountered was that [[WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS]] - well, nominate that other crap for deletion - I'm with you there, but that doesn't mean that this gets to stay. [[User:Carlossuarez46|Carlossuarez46]] ([[User talk:Carlossuarez46|talk]]) 19:33, 27 January 2009 (UTC) |
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* '''[[:Carolyn Joyce Carty]]''' – '''withdrawn''' due to OTRS concerns. OTRS ticket number noted in deletion log. – [[User:Aervanath|Aervanath]] ([[User talk:Aervanath|talk]]) 11:47, 26 January 2009 (UTC) <!--*--> |
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*On the deletion review page, there is an instruction "Deletion Review is to be used '''where someone is unable to resolve the issue in discussion with the administrator (or other editor) in question'''. This should be attempted first – courteously invite the admin to take a second look". I haven't noticed this discussion taking place. While I'm aware that some users consider this an optional step, I would appreciate if the nominator could please explain why he omitted it (or, if there was a discussion that I missed, point it out)? [[User:Stifle|Stifle]] ([[User talk:Stifle/wizard|talk]]) 15:56, 25 January 2009 (UTC) |
*On the deletion review page, there is an instruction "Deletion Review is to be used '''where someone is unable to resolve the issue in discussion with the administrator (or other editor) in question'''. This should be attempted first – courteously invite the admin to take a second look". I haven't noticed this discussion taking place. While I'm aware that some users consider this an optional step, I would appreciate if the nominator could please explain why he omitted it (or, if there was a discussion that I missed, point it out)? [[User:Stifle|Stifle]] ([[User talk:Stifle/wizard|talk]]) 15:56, 25 January 2009 (UTC) |
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:*I went to the admin's page, but, noticed [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ASwatjester&diff=265897027&oldid=265896040 this comment], so, it seemed like DRV was the next logical step. I've no idea what OTRS is; but, none of that was mentioned in either the conversation above, or the deletion log anyway. [[User:Neier|Neier]] ([[User talk:Neier|talk]]) 22:19, 25 January 2009 (UTC) |
:*I went to the admin's page, but, noticed [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ASwatjester&diff=265897027&oldid=265896040 this comment], so, it seemed like DRV was the next logical step. I've no idea what OTRS is; but, none of that was mentioned in either the conversation above, or the deletion log anyway. [[User:Neier|Neier]] ([[User talk:Neier|talk]]) 22:19, 25 January 2009 (UTC) |
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*Note- this article, and it's subject, as well as the Footprints poem article, are all the subject of an OTRS legal ticket. The article was becoming a trouble spot; it had previously been a redirect to the Footprints poem article, but a banned user (banned in relation to the aforementioned ticket) insisted on recreating it. The subject of the article itself does not merit their own article; this is about whether there should be a redirect or not, which is not the point of Deletion Review. For the purpose of not exacerbating the ticket and correspondence surrounding it, I would ask that this be closed and the matter be dropped. [[User:Swatjester|< |
*Note- this article, and it's subject, as well as the Footprints poem article, are all the subject of an OTRS legal ticket. The article was becoming a trouble spot; it had previously been a redirect to the Footprints poem article, but a banned user (banned in relation to the aforementioned ticket) insisted on recreating it. The subject of the article itself does not merit their own article; this is about whether there should be a redirect or not, which is not the point of Deletion Review. For the purpose of not exacerbating the ticket and correspondence surrounding it, I would ask that this be closed and the matter be dropped. [[User:Swatjester|<span style="color:red;">⇒</span>]][[User_talk:Swatjester|<span style="font-family:Euclid Fraktur;"><span style="color:black;">SWAT</span><span style="color:goldenrod;">Jester</span></span>]] [[WP:DC|<small><sup>Son of the Defender</sup></small>]] 20:17, 25 January 2009 (UTC) |
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*:Can we have the ticket number so that other OTRS users can have a look? [[User:Stifle|Stifle]] ([[User talk:Stifle/wizard|talk]]) 21:35, 25 January 2009 (UTC) |
*:Can we have the ticket number so that other OTRS users can have a look? [[User:Stifle|Stifle]] ([[User talk:Stifle/wizard|talk]]) 21:35, 25 January 2009 (UTC) |
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**:If its in the legal queue other OTRS users cannot see the ticket. [[User:Spartaz|Spartaz]] <sup>''[[User talk:Spartaz|Humbug!]]''</sup> 21:51, 25 January 2009 (UTC) |
**:If its in the legal queue other OTRS users cannot see the ticket. [[User:Spartaz|Spartaz]] <sup>''[[User talk:Spartaz|Humbug!]]''</sup> 21:51, 25 January 2009 (UTC) |
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*It would seem the obvious solution is to create the redirect and protect it. Ditto for the other proposed authors. '''[[User:DGG|DGG]]''' ([[User talk:DGG|talk]]) 00:37, 26 January 2009 (UTC) |
*It would seem the obvious solution is to create the redirect and protect it. Ditto for the other proposed authors. '''[[User:DGG|DGG]]''' ([[User talk:DGG|talk]]) 00:37, 26 January 2009 (UTC) |
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*::That is not the obvious solution here. Doing so would greatly exacerbate the current situation that OTRS is dealing with. [[User:Swatjester|< |
*::That is not the obvious solution here. Doing so would greatly exacerbate the current situation that OTRS is dealing with. [[User:Swatjester|<span style="color:red;">⇒</span>]][[User_talk:Swatjester|<span style="font-family:Euclid Fraktur;"><span style="color:black;">SWAT</span><span style="color:goldenrod;">Jester</span></span>]] [[WP:DC|<small><sup>Son of the Defender</sup></small>]] 05:44, 26 January 2009 (UTC) |
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**For reference, the OTRS ticket number is #2009011210025003 but you will need legal queue access to view it. [[User:Swatjester|< |
**For reference, the OTRS ticket number is #2009011210025003 but you will need legal queue access to view it. [[User:Swatjester|<span style="color:red;">⇒</span>]][[User_talk:Swatjester|<span style="font-family:Euclid Fraktur;"><span style="color:black;">SWAT</span><span style="color:goldenrod;">Jester</span></span>]] [[WP:DC|<small><sup>Son of the Defender</sup></small>]] 05:45, 26 January 2009 (UTC) |
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***Oh well. Bearing in mind that Swatjester has a @wikimedia.org email address, I suspect that overturning this would just result in a [[WP:OFFICE]] deletion. '''Keep deleted''' as such, but to provide for a proper audit trail, I suggest undeleting and redeleting quoting the ticket number. [[User:Stifle|Stifle]] ([[User talk:Stifle/wizard|talk]]) 09:30, 26 January 2009 (UTC) |
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*'''Withdraw''' - I'm sorry to have raised such a ruckus. Had there been a mention of [[WP:OTRS]] in the deletion summary, I probably would have not bothered to come here. Obviously, I can't judge the merits of the legal issues; but if having the redirect in place and protected would still cause trouble, then, I agree with the current decision. [[User:Neier|Neier]] ([[User talk:Neier|talk]]) 11:12, 26 January 2009 (UTC) |
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* '''[[:Comsec Consulting Ltd.]]''' – '''deletion endorsed, recreation allowed'''. The original deletion was endorsed, but the new version (substantially improved) is in mainspace at [[Comsec Consulting]]. – [[User:Aervanath|Aervanath]] ([[User talk:Aervanath|talk]]) 15:01, 30 January 2009 (UTC) <!--*--> |
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{{drvlinks|pg=Comsec Consulting Ltd.|ns=Article}}<tt>)</tt> |
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**An article can start out with problems such as bias or (in other cases) bad writing and still be about a notable topic. The fact that the original contributor removed a speedy tag should not be allowed to hide the possibility that the topic is notable. If the article can be easily salvaged and turned into an adequate one, then it should be. -- [[User:Eastmain|Eastmain]] ([[User talk:Eastmain|talk]]) 19:20, 25 January 2009 (UTC) |
**An article can start out with problems such as bias or (in other cases) bad writing and still be about a notable topic. The fact that the original contributor removed a speedy tag should not be allowed to hide the possibility that the topic is notable. If the article can be easily salvaged and turned into an adequate one, then it should be. -- [[User:Eastmain|Eastmain]] ([[User talk:Eastmain|talk]]) 19:20, 25 January 2009 (UTC) |
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*'''Endorse''' These deleted content was clearly an advert and wikipedia is not the place to promote your business. Eastmain, there is no reason why an independent article can't be written if it meets WP:CORP but you need to specify exactly what sources you think there are as editors are not going to parse google searches for you. I had a quick look and note of the references were non-trivial. Of course, I can revisit if you actually cite the sources since I didn't actually look very closely. [[User:Spartaz|Spartaz]] <sup>''[[User talk:Spartaz|Humbug!]]''</sup> 19:31, 25 January 2009 (UTC) |
*'''Endorse''' These deleted content was clearly an advert and wikipedia is not the place to promote your business. Eastmain, there is no reason why an independent article can't be written if it meets WP:CORP but you need to specify exactly what sources you think there are as editors are not going to parse google searches for you. I had a quick look and note of the references were non-trivial. Of course, I can revisit if you actually cite the sources since I didn't actually look very closely. [[User:Spartaz|Spartaz]] <sup>''[[User talk:Spartaz|Humbug!]]''</sup> 19:31, 25 January 2009 (UTC) |
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*'''Endorse''' advertisements should be deleted, other crap exists is not an overturning reason. [[User:Swatjester|< |
*'''Endorse''' advertisements should be deleted, other crap exists is not an overturning reason. [[User:Swatjester|<span style="color:red;">⇒</span>]][[User_talk:Swatjester|<span style="font-family:Euclid Fraktur;"><span style="color:black;">SWAT</span><span style="color:goldenrod;">Jester</span></span>]] [[WP:DC|<small><sup>Son of the Defender</sup></small>]] 20:21, 25 January 2009 (UTC) |
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*'''Endorse''' I placed the original CSD tag because the page was nothing but blatant advertising of a non-notible company. [[User:Eeekster|Eeekster]] ([[User talk:Eeekster|talk]]) 21:42, 25 January 2009 (UTC) |
*'''Endorse''' I placed the original CSD tag because the page was nothing but blatant advertising of a non-notible company. [[User:Eeekster|Eeekster]] ([[User talk:Eeekster|talk]]) 21:42, 25 January 2009 (UTC) |
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*'''Note''' — this has been reported to the [[WP:COIN|conflict of interest noticeboard]]. [[User talk:MuZemike|MuZemike]] 06:21, 26 January 2009 (UTC) |
*'''Note''' — this has been reported to the [[WP:COIN|conflict of interest noticeboard]]. [[User talk:MuZemike|MuZemike]] 06:21, 26 January 2009 (UTC) |
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*'''Request''' Please may we see the deleted text? A simple search of Google shows that this organisation is potentially notable. [[User:Timtrent|Fiddle Faddle]] ([[User talk:Timtrent|talk]]) 08:37, 26 January 2009 (UTC) |
*'''Request''' Please may we see the deleted text? A simple search of Google shows that this organisation is potentially notable. [[User:Timtrent|Fiddle Faddle]] ([[User talk:Timtrent|talk]]) 08:37, 26 January 2009 (UTC) |
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**The article has been restored under a tempundelete tag for now. [[User:Stifle|Stifle]] ([[User talk:Stifle/wizard|talk]]) 09:38, 26 January 2009 (UTC) |
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***Thank you. I have userfied the article [[User:Shar1R/Comsec_temporary_page|here]] (hope that is Ok) because I'm going to try to guide the creator into a rewrite. Since I can see that it was written as an advert (intentional or accidental) I '''endorse''' the initial deletion, but ask for '''unsalting''' to make way for a much enhanced future article. [[User:Timtrent|Fiddle Faddle]] ([[User talk:Timtrent|talk]]) 10:55, 26 January 2009 (UTC) |
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****Forgive my lack of procedural knowledge here. In the creator's userspace it's taken me about 30 minutes to perform radical surgery on the article. There is more required, but I am standing too close to be able to do more to it myself with any validity. The corporation has notability and verifiability, and it might make sense to look at the current state of the userfied article, edit it more to make it fully acceptable, and consider restoring that version. I'm simply not sure if that is part of this process. It does need more surgery prior to restoration. [[User:Timtrent|Fiddle Faddle]] ([[User talk:Timtrent|talk]]) 11:33, 26 January 2009 (UTC) |
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*'''Restore''' (userfy if it helps). Despite claims above that the company is blatantly non-notable, [[WP:CORP]] says that publically traded companies are notable if multiple sources exist to build an article with. The deleted version of the article already contained such sources like [http://www.computerweekly.com/Articles/2008/12/11/233856/uk-must-consolidate-it-security-says-stuart-okin.htm this] (discussing new director), but there are others including: [http://investing.businessweek.com/research/stocks/snapshot/snapshot.asp?capId=1193842] [http://finance.google.com/finance?q=TLV:CMSC] [http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0EIN/is_/ai_60134424]. Issues of advertising can be addressed by trimming and rewording. - [[User:MacGyverMagic|Mgm]]|[[User talk:MacGyverMagic|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 09:27, 26 January 2009 (UTC) |
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*:Articles which have been speedied can be recreated by any editor as long as they overcome the reason why the article was deleted to start with. [[User:Stifle|Stifle]] ([[User talk:Stifle/wizard|talk]]) 09:38, 26 January 2009 (UTC) |
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*'''Endorse''' Wikipedia shouldn't be used by advertisers in such a way. [[User:Themfromspace|Themfromspace]] ([[User talk:Themfromspace|talk]]) 11:05, 26 January 2009 (UTC) |
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*'''Concur''' with [[User:Timtrent|Fiddle Faddle]] that the userified one is much better, and that the company is likely notable. If Shar1R is open to working on that version to make sure it fits within policy, then either '''Endorse Deletion''' of the original until the userified one is ready, or just outright '''Replace''' the existing page with the userified version, with the understanding that it needs some additional work. The latter would be the less bitey way, imho. [[User:Arakunem|<b>Arakunem</b>]][[User talk:Arakunem|<small><sup>Talk</sup></small>]] 16:44, 26 January 2009 (UTC) |
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*'''Request''' I am not sure of process. I'm not sure if I was right to draw that line either :) If I am out of order please slap me gently. I have done substantial work on the userfied version. The originator seems to be saying that they are not going to work on it, something I feel to be wholly sensible. That article is at [[User:Shar1R/Comsec temporary page]]. I believe that the page is ready for other editors to work on in the main namespace and would like to move it back over the original speedily deleted and salted version. I can't do that because (a) this process here is not finished, and (b) I am not an admin. So my request is that we close this discussion early on the basis that the original deletion was correct, and then someone with the administrative power to move the userfied page moves it to the main namespace (if they consider it to be ready and appropriate there) and we allow it to take its chances there. The only references I am doubtful about I have noted on the userfied talk page. I think that needs to be moved with the article, please. [[User:Timtrent|Fiddle Faddle]] ([[User talk:Timtrent|talk]]) 17:34, 26 January 2009 (UTC) |
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**'''Concur''' as above. [[User:Arakunem|<b>Arakunem</b>]][[User talk:Arakunem|<small><sup>Talk</sup></small>]] 18:14, 26 January 2009 (UTC) |
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*'''Restore''' although it has borderline sources. If anyone is really unhappy, they can do another afd on it. I think there are more pressing matters than to bother removing borderline articles like this. after reasonable amount of improvement. '''[[User:DGG|DGG]]''' ([[User talk:DGG|talk]]) 21:46, 26 January 2009 (UTC) |
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**I'm working with the originator to find additional citations, though I think SC Magazine itself is pretty authoritative. I do agree that a wider spread would be substantially better. I think the article would probably survive AfD now, though nothing is certain. It is certainly no longer a Speedy candidate, and it does need more work. I hope the restoration of this much stripped down version will encourage other editors to look at it and improve it. The thing is, someone needs, please, to bite this bullet, determine whether this discussion is at an end, and, if so, come to a conclusion about closure, and, I hope, unsalting and moving the new version over the temporarily restored version. [[User:Timtrent|Fiddle Faddle]] ([[User talk:Timtrent|talk]]) 10:58, 27 January 2009 (UTC) |
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*'''Endorse''' Wikipedia is no place for advertisements from editors with conflicts of interest. [[User:Themfromspace|Themfromspace]] ([[User talk:Themfromspace|talk]]) 11:08, 27 January 2009 (UTC) |
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**'''Comment''' I think you missed something here. Yes, the original deletion is to be endorsed, even commended. It was correct. The article was written like a PR bulletin. It went. Good. But the new article, with a few factual elements left from the original and all the PR stuff removed is the one I am hoping to restore, simply because the corporation itself is notable and verifiable. I agree with your comment, but that is, surely, about the original and inappropriate article. The originator is not going to touch the new article because they now understand COI. And they are not sure how to rectify the mess they caused with the flurry of bold above. [[User:Timtrent|Fiddle Faddle]] ([[User talk:Timtrent|talk]]) 11:18, 27 January 2009 (UTC) |
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***DRV is to review the previous deletion and see if it was correct or not and I think we both agree that it was the correct decision. I'm not prejudiced against recreating the article, but if the new one doesn't meet Wikipedia's guildelines I'm also not prejudiced against sending it to AfD pretty quickly. [[User:Themfromspace|Themfromspace]] ([[User talk:Themfromspace|talk]]) 11:52, 27 January 2009 (UTC) |
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****We agree. Is it not also the place to request unsalting, or am I confused? The replacement article must take its chance and stand or fall on its own merits. [[User:Timtrent|Fiddle Faddle]] ([[User talk:Timtrent|talk]]) 13:18, 27 January 2009 (UTC) |
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*****That's kind of a grey area. Traditionally, an unsalting request is made here along with the presentation of a userspace draft. [[User:Stifle|Stifle]] ([[User talk:Stifle/wizard|talk]]) 09:10, 28 January 2009 (UTC) |
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******I think you will find that I have presented a userspace draft :) Here is it agains: [[User:Shar1R/Comsec temporary page]]. Scroll up a little to the ''request'' under the horizontal line, please. [[User:Timtrent|Fiddle Faddle]] ([[User talk:Timtrent|talk]]) 23:10, 28 January 2009 (UTC) |
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* '''Endorse''' [[WP:CSD#G11]] applies here. <b>[[User Talk:JzG|Guy]]</b> <small>([[User:JzG/help|Help!]])</small> 22:29, 28 January 2009 (UTC) |
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| style="text-align:center;" | ''The above is an archive of the [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]] of the page listed in the heading. <span style="color:red;">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span>'' |
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Latest revision as of 12:16, 30 January 2023
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The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the article above. Please do not modify it. |
Deadstar Assembly (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (restore | cache | AfD)) Band_VERY_valid DeadstarAssembly (talk) 02:37, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
I have tried reviewing it with the administrator who deleted it and found that even providing hundreds of links that proove the bands standing wouldn't be enough for him, so he had suggested to do it via this method. So here's a shortened version of the information I have provided to him: The group have been around for 8 years and have appeared numerous times in publications both digital and print globally including such magazines as Zillo (germany), and Metal edge (United states). Also having toured the United States over a dozen times in that span, been sampled on numerous TV shows for stations such as VH1, MTV, and even ABC family, and have a pending release of its 3rd globally available album (retail, not only online), airplay on a global level on both satellite and air-broadcast radio, I would assume these would qualify them for a few of the criteria listed on the wikipedia's page of terms. Below you will find a listing of just a fraction of the bands mention - The bands listing on MTV http://www.mtv.com/music/artist/deadstar_assembly/artist.jhtml Proof of the bands contribution to a major video game http://projectgothamracing3.com/gothammusic/Soundtrack+Samples.htm Major music label #1 http://www.purerecords.com/ Major music label #2 (international) http://www.dockyard1.com/deadstar/ Proof of the bands endorsement with BC Rich Guitars http://www.bcrich.com/artists.asp Proof of the bands endorsement with Kustom Amplifiers http://www.kustom.com/artist_main.aspx Proof of the bands endorsement with SnapJack Cables http://www.zzyzxsnapjack.com/artists.html Proof of the bands endorsement with DDRums (Under artists section) http://www.ddrum.com/main2.php Proof of the bands endorsement with HotPicks USA http://www.hotpicksusa.com/artists.cfm Proof of the bands inclusion (the cover no less) if a German Magazine called "zillo" https://www.zillo.de/cgi-bin/zillo2/shop/cgi/show_artikel.cgi?nextpage_params=&artikel=mag052006&prevpage=&pattern=&start=1&lang=deutsch&artikelid=&session=&warengruppe=64&pattern_ir=&nextpage= (go to www.zillo.de to confirm the magazine as being not run via the band or an individual blog owner) —Preceding unsigned comment added by DeadstarAssembly (talk • contribs) 09:47, 26 January 2009 (UTC) Partial list of the bands touring history (Sadly unable to parse 8 years of touring data) http://www.deadstar.com/tour/past_dates.php Amazon.com http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_gw?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=deadstar+assembly&x=0&y=0 Simple google search for a review of the bands last album http://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&channel=s&hl=en&q=deadstar+assembly+unsaved+reviews&btnG=Google+Search Bands large list of videos on youtube (some with almost 200k views per) http://www.youtube.com/results?search_type=&search_query=deadstar+assembly&aq=-1&oq= Bands listing on Rolling stone http://www.rollingstone.com/reviews/album/10748864/unsaved List of articles on blabbermouth (a major label run music blog) http://www.roadrunnerrecords.com/blabbermouth.net/news.aspx?mode=Search&searchtext=deadstar+assembly&x=0&y=0 I can provide more if it would help show the standing of the group. —Preceding unsigned comment added by DeadstarAssembly (talk • contribs) 09:29, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
Via email correspondence.
Zillo is a German based print magazine, thus why it was listed as a viable source of mainstream recognition (maybe not an American mainstream, but in Germany it has been running for over 2 decades). There are several other publications of which the group have been featured in both nationally and internationally, but since they are all print, there are no digital reproductions of them on the magazines websites. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Elblots (talk • contribs) 21:58, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
The magazine posted above has the band on the cover, and thus indicates that there is more than just a mention of them. The specific article is archived (partially due to them being a print magazine and thus wont post the entire article online) on their page at the following URL (in german however) http://www.zillo.de/magazin/mags/052006/magazin_leseproben_052006_deadstar_assembly.html Issue # 05/2006 Pages 12-18. Article title: Deadstar Assembly - Bizarr und intemsiv" In the meantime I will provide you with a link to another Euro based print magazine of which the band was featured http://devolutionmagazine.co.uk/issues.htm (issue #10). Pages 40-41..a 2 page interview with the band. And another euro based print magazine called "rimfrost" of which the band was featured: http://www.gothic.no/rimfrost.htm Issue 12. pages 7-12. Another interview with the band titled - Deadstar Assembly En Giftig blanding av death-pop og goth-rock" http://www.metalhammer.co.uk/ featured the band in their June 2006 issue (waiting on exact page #) http://www.caustictruths.com/ an american print magazine which featured the band on page 54 of issue # 107. http://www.sonic-seducer.de/index.php another german magazine that had a 2 page feature on the group. Waiting on exact issue #. Orkus magazine featured the band on pages 48-49 in the following issue: http://www.orkus.de/index_d.php?siteId=backissues&vonEg=15&wievielEintraege=15# Issue - 2006-05 Article title - Deadstar Assembly (Newcomer des Monats) http://www.orkus.de/ (original site for reference) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Elblots (talk • contribs) 21:05, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
added a few magazine references above —Preceding unsigned comment added by Elblots (talk • contribs) 21:05, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
Also proof of the bands inclusion in the ABC Movie "Picture This" - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTB39MwFTe4 at 5:32 in the above video. The song referenced is "Just Like You" which can be confrimed via streaming on our last fm page: http://www.last.fm/music/Deadstar+Assembly —Preceding unsigned comment added by Elblots (talk • contribs) 23:47, 27 January 2009 (UTC) More references: X Tra X Guitar Deadstar Assembly Guitar Giveaway in Germany Zillo Magazine Info: (newer article from very recently) Dezember/Januar 2009 - 12/08-01/09, 20. Jahrgang Page 8 News Page 10 Die Szene kocht: DeadStar Assembly Page 48 DVDs: DeadStar Assembly "Dark Hole Sessions Vol. 2" DVD Review —Preceding unsigned comment added by Elblots (talk • contribs) 00:11, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
So what is the next course of action? If reinstated I will re-write the article to make it properly referenced as to meet the requirements of Wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Elblots (talk • contribs) 18:53, 29 January 2009 (UTC) |
The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it. |
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The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the article above. Please do not modify it. |
List of algal culture collections (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (restore | cache | AfD)) As noted by me and two others who commented, the article violates WP:NOT#LINK. Some argued that the links could just be made into references, but it would then become a directory of these farms, and so would violate WP:NOT#DIRECTORY. Since these reasons are policy, those supporting keep did not refute this, and consensus is based on policy, the consensus here was that the article should have been deleted. seresin ( ¡? ) 23:43, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
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The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it. |
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The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the article above. Please do not modify it. |
Creation of this article has been permanently blocked since July 2008 because of repeated recreations without establishing notability. I have an article sitting in my User:Americasroof/Sandbox which I believes establishes notability including a IMDB profile and a New York Times story. A google search on the guy's name produces more than 500,000 hits. He has done a movie in addition to his commercials. I was not part of the previous articles. If people still have a problem with him it should go to afd rather than being permanently blocked by one administrator. Americasroof (talk) 18:02, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
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The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it. |
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The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the article above. Please do not modify it. |
Admin failed to recognize systemic bias Trachys (talk) 13:33, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
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The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it. |
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The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the article above. Please do not modify it. |
Couldn't find the AFD; but, in any case, the article is salted; but, should probably redirect to Footprints (poem), as a likely search term. Neier (talk) 13:26, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
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The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it. |
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The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the article above. Please do not modify it. |
Comsec Consulting Ltd. (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (restore | cache | AfD)) I think this page was unjustifiably deleted a number of times. It was written from a neutral POV, citing a number of third party substantiated references. There are MANY companies on here of the same size, and the same caliber that have pages that are much more advertising-oriented. I made a point of using phrases such as "commonly known for" and "active in", not provides services or our product line - as many other companies have done. I have proven our certification, and linked to our publicly traded page. As this is a public company, there are people with vested interests in the company who will find it important to be able to readily gather background information about our company. Wikipedia does not have a legal leg to stand on when deleting our page, when other company pages are present. This is clear bias. Furthermore, there has been a blatant disregard to Wikipedia policy. My tags for Deletion Review, and Speedy Deletion Review were just deleted and ignored. If I am to respect the Wikipedia guidelines, then certainly Wikipedia admins are expected to hold to them as well. I would be more than happy to respect any proposition for edits or changes to the piece to make it seem less like "blatant advertising" according to certain admins. No attempt to edit or modify the piece was made it was simply deleted, even after having been edited for the purpose of neutrality - which I believe was not even noticed or appreciated by the admins, it was simply redeleted without having even been read. Shar1R
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The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it. |