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:''The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]). No further edits should be made to this page. ''
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The result was '''keep''' [[User:Mangojuice|Mango]][[Special:Contributions/Mangojuice|<span style="color:orange;">'''juice'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Mangojuice|talk]]</sup> 17:23, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

===[[Shiny Shoe Music]]===
===[[Shiny Shoe Music]]===
'''NOTE''': The AfD [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AArticles_for_deletion%2FShiny_Shoe_Music&diff=65655067&oldid=65450662 has been withdrawn] by the nominator...indicating that, presently at least, there are 2 withdrawn "delete" votes, 1 "keep" vote, and one misplaced "weak delete" vote on [[Talk:Shiny Shoe Music|the article's talk page]]. The two withdrawn "delete" votes (including the withdrawal of the AfD nominator) should both be regarded as "keep but rename" votes. [[User:TShilo12|Tom]][[Wikipedia:Esperanza|<span style="color:#008000;">e</span>]][[User:TShilo12|r]][[User talk:TShilo12|<sup style="font-variant: small-caps; color: #129dbc!important;">talk</sup>]] 05:13, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

This term is a '''neologism''' according to the article itself, which writes:
This term is a '''neologism''' according to the article itself, which writes:
:The term Shiny Shoe Music was first used by [http://mochassid.blogspot.com/2004_04_01_mochassid_archive.html#108324855886569269 MoChassid], a Jewish music blog. Other names for it commonly refer to "Boro Park Rock," "DosPop," "Hemishe Freilachs," and "Muzica Chasidi" (Hebrew phrase for "Hasidic Music.")
:The term Shiny Shoe Music was first used by [http://mochassid.blogspot.com/2004_04_01_mochassid_archive.html#108324855886569269 MoChassid], a Jewish music blog. Other names for it commonly refer to "Boro Park Rock," "DosPop," "Hemishe Freilachs," and "Muzica Chasidi" (Hebrew phrase for "Hasidic Music.")
Following that link shows that the term was invented in [[2004]] by a blogger; there is no reason to think that it has wide-spread use. [http://www.google.com/search?q=%22shiny+shoe%22+music Google] has "about 674" results, the first of which is WP. The fact that other editors have edited the page means merely that they know about this kind of music (as I do), not that they refer to it by this name. (But I hope to inform all such editors of this nomination.)&mdash;[[User:msh210|msh210]]<span class="Unicode">&#x2120;</span> 19:41, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
Following that link shows that the term was invented in [[2004]] by a blogger; there is no reason to think that it has wide-spread use. [http://www.google.com/search?q=%22shiny+shoe%22+music Google] has "about 674" results, the first of which is WP. The fact that other editors have edited the page means merely that they know about this kind of music (as I do), not that they refer to it by this name. (But I hope to inform all such editors of this nomination.)&mdash;[[User:msh210|msh210]]<span class="Unicode">&#x2120;</span> 19:41, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
*'''Comment:''' I have so informed.&mdash;[[User:msh210|msh210]]<span class="Unicode">&#x2120;</span> 06:54, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
*'''Comment:''' I have so informed.&mdash;[[User:msh210|msh210]]<span class="Unicode">&#x2120;</span> 06:54, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
*'''delete''' per nom, unless a better name can be found...in which case, '''rename'''. [[User:TShilo12|Tom]]<font color="#008000">[[Wikipedia:Esperanza|e]]</font>[[User:TShilo12|r]][[User talk:TShilo12|<sup style="font-variant: small-caps; color: #129dbc!important;">talk</sup>]] 19:59, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
*<strike>'''delete''' per nom, unless a better name can be found...in which case, </strike> '''rename''' [[Hasidic music]]. [[User:TShilo12|Tom]][[Wikipedia:Esperanza|<span style="color:#008000;">e</span>]][[User:TShilo12|r]][[User talk:TShilo12|<sup style="font-variant: small-caps; color: #129dbc!important;">talk</sup>]] 19:59, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
*'''keep'''. Fact check. Following the link, I learned that the blogger was happy to '''use''' the term in 2004 because he felt it was inspired, not that he made it up himself. In fact he specifically disclaims making it up, saying that it was made up by another ''Yerushalmi musician''. The Google hits seem diverse enough to support the idea that it is in use by a lot of people, even if it's a "neologism" (not sure if that term even applies to music, whose styles are constantly evolving) [[User:Reswobslc|Reswobslc]] 03:32, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
*'''keep'''. Fact check. Following the link, I learned that the blogger was happy to '''use''' the term in 2004 because he felt it was inspired, not that he made it up himself. In fact he specifically disclaims making it up, saying that it was made up by another ''Yerushalmi musician''. The Google hits seem diverse enough to support the idea that it is in use by a lot of people, even if it's a "neologism" (not sure if that term even applies to music, whose styles are constantly evolving) [[User:Reswobslc|Reswobslc]] 03:32, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
**'''Fact re-check:''' He says his musician friend invented "shiny black shoe music", not "shiny shoe music", which seems to be his own invention. Most of the Google hits are blog entries (at a glance: I haven't checked carefully), which would seem to imply that the term is quite new.&mdash;[[User:msh210|msh210]]<span class="Unicode">&#x2120;</span> 20:28, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
**'''Fact re-check:''' He says his musician friend invented "shiny black shoe music", not "shiny shoe music", which seems to be his own invention. Most of the Google hits are blog entries (at a glance: I haven't checked carefully), which would seem to imply that the term is quite new.&mdash;[[User:msh210|msh210]]<span class="Unicode">&#x2120;</span> 20:28, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
*'''Comment:''' I actually have no problem moving per ''[[User:TShilo12|Tom]]<font color="#008000">[[Wikipedia:Esperanza|e]]</font>[[User:TShilo12|r]][[User talk:TShilo12|<sup style="font-variant: small-caps; color: #129dbc!important;">talk</sup>]] 19:59, 16 July 2006 (UTC)'', I guess, but have no idea what to move to. As the article states, the genre is called "Hasidic music" (in Hebrew) in Israel, and I've heard the term "Hasidic music" (in English) too, and I suspect that that's a better title than the current one, but don't know if that's good enough either.&mdash;[[User:msh210|msh210]]<span class="Unicode">&#x2120;</span> 20:28, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
*'''Comment:''' I actually have no problem moving per ''[[User:TShilo12|Tom]][[Wikipedia:Esperanza|<span style="color:#008000;">e</span>]][[User:TShilo12|r]][[User talk:TShilo12|<sup style="font-variant: small-caps; color: #129dbc!important;">talk</sup>]] 19:59, 16 July 2006 (UTC)'', I guess, but have no idea what to move to. As the article states, the genre is called "Hasidic music" (in Hebrew) in Israel, and I've heard the term "Hasidic music" (in English) too, and <s>I suspect that that's a better title than the current one</s>, but don't know if that's good enough either.&mdash;[[User:msh210|msh210]]<span class="Unicode">&#x2120;</span> 20:28, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
*:So, my recommendation then becomes to move the article to [[Hasidic music]] and if someone comes along later and says that article should include other types of Hasidic music, we can figure out at that point whether to further disambiguate...or if, perhaps, by that time, "Shiny Shoe Music" or some other term is more applicable to this particular genre. [[User:TShilo12|Tom]]<font color="#008000">[[Wikipedia:Esperanza|e]]</font>[[User:TShilo12|r]][[User talk:TShilo12|<sup style="font-variant: small-caps; color: #129dbc!important;">talk</sup>]] 06:02, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
*:So, my recommendation then becomes to move the article to [[Hasidic music]] and if someone comes along later and says that article should include other types of Hasidic music, we can figure out at that point whether to further disambiguate...or if, perhaps, by that time, "Shiny Shoe Music" or some other term is more applicable to this particular genre. [[User:TShilo12|Tom]][[Wikipedia:Esperanza|<span style="color:#008000;">e</span>]][[User:TShilo12|r]][[User talk:TShilo12|<sup style="font-variant: small-caps; color: #129dbc!important;">talk</sup>]] 06:02, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
*::Come to think of it, "Hasidic music" would be too ambiguous: in fact it sounds like it's referring to music of Chasidim rather than to the stuff now discussed at [[Shiny Shoe Music]]. So maybe moving thither is ''not'' such a good idea.&mdash;[[User:msh210|msh210]]<span class="Unicode">&#x2120;</span> 06:23, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
*:::Which was exactly my point...That said, however, just because you or I think it sounds ambiguous is insufficient grounds to not put it there...essentially, refusing to do so, esp. since you even say right out, above, that you've heard it referred to by that name, becomes a backwards violation of WP:NOR. All that would be required to avoid confusion is to state plainly what's being discussed in the article lead--that is, after all, the lead's purpose. As I said above, if Çasidi music eventually begins to refer to other things as well, or if you're ''really'' opposed to putting it at [[Chasidic music]], write an article about chasidic music [it need only be a stub, to begin with], and mention the subject of the current [[Shiny Shoe Music]], complete with a link to "this" article, and move it from [[Shiny Shoe Music]] to [[Hasidic music (style)]] or whatever. [[User:TShilo12|Tom]][[Wikipedia:Esperanza|<span style="color:#008000;">e</span>]][[User:TShilo12|r]][[User talk:TShilo12|<sup style="font-variant: small-caps; color: #129dbc!important;">talk</sup>]] 21:40, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
:'''''&nbsp;<span style="color:#CC6600;">AFD relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached.</span>'''''<br><small>&nbsp;Please add new discussions below this notice. Thanks, [[User:TigerShark|TigerShark]] 22:23, 23 July 2006 (UTC)</small><!-- from Template:relist -->
*'''Comment''' I don't really think that was entirely necessary--I'm pretty sure consensus against outright deletion has already been reached. What remains is to actually figure out what to rename it. [[User:TShilo12|Tom]][[Wikipedia:Esperanza|<span style="color:#008000;">e</span>]][[User:TShilo12|r]][[User talk:TShilo12|<sup style="font-variant: small-caps; color: #129dbc!important;">talk</sup>]] 23:01, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

'''NOTE:''' Per [{{fullurl:User talk:Msh210|diff=next&oldid=64162911}} TShilo12's suggestion], I hereby withdraw my nomination for deletion in favor of moving the article. (Note also that this should ''not'' be viewed as a request by author for deletion of this AFD page, as a record of this discussion is needed.)&mdash;[[User:msh210|msh210]]<span class="Unicode">&#x2120;</span> 00:02, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]). No further edits should be made to this page.'' <!--Template:Afd bottom--></div>

Latest revision as of 13:17, 11 February 2023