Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/State Socialism

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Keep. — ΛΧΣ21™ 01:56, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

State Socialism

State Socialism (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log • Stats)

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duplicate page of state socialism made by using lower case letters. editors have suggested one is otto bismarck, and the other not, yet he appears prominent in both pages. many of the sources for both pages use uppers, or lower case not aligned with the specific article cases. Darkstar1st (talk) 11:30, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

• Keep The term "state socialism" may refer to different things, which justifies separate articles, per WP:DISAMBIG. The social welfare policies developed by the German Conservative Party in the 1870s and 1880s are a different topic from the economic policies developed by Communist parties in the 20th century. The first btw is normally capitalized, italicized or parenthesized. It could be that one of the articles should be trimmed so that it covers a discreet topic. TFD (talk) 14:35, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
• Keep - The distinctive Bismarckian system, which raided some of the ideas of the international socialist opposition in order to undercut and fight it, was indeed known as "State Socialism." That is what this article is about. It is the object of extensive scholarly study and meets GNG with flying colors. The other piece is a general article on the concept of State Socialism. The current piece needs to be retitled, that is all, and a disambiguation link placed at the top of the piece on State Socialism In General. Carrite (talk) 15:06, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
• Comment - There is something wrong with the code on this particular AfD, which automatically duplicates itself in two places on this page. Can somebody fix that? Carrite (talk) 15:14, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
• Comment - As to titles... Perhaps a change to State Socialism for the "State Socialism in General" page (including the caps) and changing the piece in question here to State Socialism in Germany? Carrite (talk) 15:14, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
  • We need a clearer distinction in the titles. What about "State Socialism (Germany)" and "State socialism" with a hatnote saying not to be confused with State Socialism (Germany)? (My reading is that there are only two concepts.) TFD (talk) 16:39, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Germany-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 15:15, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Politics-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 15:15, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

• Keep along with hatnotes, or a dab page. Bearian (talk) 22:10, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
• Keep Bismarckian state socialism is a notable and well covered topic although, as per Carrite, some solution regarding disambiguation needs to be arranged, most likely with this article being moved and the general article holding the generic title. Keresaspa (talk) 00:44, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

Keresapa, or any of the above keeps, what is the major difference between Bismarckian state socialism and state socialism, and how does that justify it's own article instead of a section on the articles page? Darkstar1st (talk) 01:30, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

Bismarck's State Socialism was social welfare policies developed by the German Conservative Party in the 1870s and 1880s, while state socialism refers to economic policies developed by Communist parties in the 20th century. TFD (talk) 03:37, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

that's weird, the 1st source for State socialism is websters, the second was written in 1873. Darkstar1st (talk) 04:24, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

Websters defines "state socialism" as "an economic system with limited socialist characteristics" and says the first known reference was 1879.[1] That certainly includes Bismarck's policies. However it does not appear to describe Communist states in th 20th century that had more than limited socialist characteristics. We should be relying on books about political science not entries from abridged dictionaries. The second reference (from 1873) does not use the term "state socialism" but describes "statist" tendencies in Marxism, which would influence the type of socialism that Marxists would impliment when they achieved power in the 20th century. TFD (talk) 14:04, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

exactly, two poorly sourced articles in place of one article and a section on how Bismarck was different. Separate articles are for terms like mercury( element/planet, not different shades of state socialism, as it is refered to in BOTH articles references and NOT in the case reflected. Darkstar1st (talk) 14:53, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

No, a better analogy would be one article on the general topic Communism and another on Economy of the Soviet Union. Carrite (talk) 15:46, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

agreed, will you put in the request to change the name to economy of bismarckyz germany? Darkstar1st (talk) 17:01, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

• Keep per Carrite. These are two different things and they're both important and they don't belong in the same article. The name thing is unfortunate and should be fixed immediately after this AFD closes as keep.— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 16:01, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.