Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Punnaram Cholli Cholli

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. –MuZemike 05:05, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Punnaram Cholli Cholli

Punnaram Cholli Cholli (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

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Declined PROD, where editor added websites where the DVD of the current film can be purchased. The article lists no reliable sources. On my own search, I was unable to find reviews, awards, or other independent sources asserting the notability of this film. I, Jethrobot ^{drop me a line} (note: not a bot!) 09:11, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of India-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 00:55, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Film-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 00:55, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

• Comment: It’d be hard to find online reviews for this pre-internet 1985 Malayalam film. Salih (talk) 04:53, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
• Keep: Article satisfies WP:V and is not WP:HOAX. There are songs on Raaga and a few Youtube videos. These dont technically qualify as WP:RS, but atleast they show that article is not WP:HOAX. One can technically find additional Reliable Sources by looking into hard literature Veryhuman (talk) 18:51, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

Comment We don't keep articles about films simply because because they are not hoaxes. WP:V is a necessary, but not sufficient criteria for inclusion in Wikipedia. We also don't keep articles about films (or other topics) because we assume that sources exist. I, Jethrobot ^{drop me a line} (note: not a bot!) 00:53, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Actually, sometimes verifiability can be enough to allow a brand new article on a topic that has found its way into both the Encyclopaedia of Indian cinema and the Lexikon Film Schauspieler international to remain and have issues addressed over time and through regular editing. The more difficult a verifiable topic is to research, should not make us more willing to toss it because it will be hard work. The inclusion in those tomes might be seen as indicators that at one time the film was written of and was deemed worth including therein, perhaps for its own sake or because of the also verifiable involvement of India's preemminent stars of that era... Shankar, Rahman, Zarina Wahab, Sreenivasan, Innocent, Bharath Gopi, Nedumudi Venu, and Lizy... or because it was an early directorial effort of Priyadarshan, or because it was written by actor Sreenivasan. Sometimes such verifiable is enough to encourage that such brand new stubs remain for a while and be addressed by editors better able to search for the hardcopy sources that may have spoken about the film when it was first released. It's a problem we encounter with the unfortunate systemic bias that exists for pre-internet, non-English films, and the expectation by some that a Malayalam film from 1985 must remain in the news or be found immediately in archives of news articles from that pre-internet time. Do we delete because its time is 26 years past, or allow those better able to do so to address issues over time and through regular editing? Schmidt, ^{MICHAEL Q.} 02:46, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

But, the first source is a 524-page book, listing of all films coming out of Indian cinema since 1912-1994, and does not appear to be source reflecting an indication of notability as much as it is a compendium. The other source is a 924-book detailing bios of actors and actresses. Though this is likely to mention the film, it is not likely to provide significant coverage of the film itself. As for the fact that the film's director and actors may be notable, and that this might be an indicator of the fact that sources supporting the film's notability exist, I am in agreement. However, I see no problem with someone userifying the page until such sources are found. To say that a topic is merited a page on Wikipedia prior to concrete evidence that such sources exist doesn't sit well with me. The sources demonstrating notability need to come first, even if they are offline. Besides, as it stands, the page is essentially a content fork of the information currently at Priyadarshan#Filmography with unsourced claims like "This film was also a good earner at box office." Is this page really adding anything valuable as it is? I do not think so. I, Jethrobot ^{drop me a line} (note: not a bot!) 04:13, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

They were offered as sources for verifiability, but not as significant coverage. SIGCOV is delightful tool by which to measure if something might be worthy of note, but not a policy or guideline mandate nor is it the only tool we might use to determine if something, even a 26-year-old non-English film from a non-English country, might be somehow valuable to those interested in Cinema of India in general and Malayalam films in particular. The essay WP:OEN deals with this concept. Not being Malayalam nor having access to whatever hardcopy Malayalam sources may be available offline that might address this film, I agree that removing it from mainspace through a userfication back to its author might bear fruit. Schmidt, ^{MICHAEL Q.} 08:15, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

• Delete as apparently failing the notability guidelines. Michael Q. Schmidt makes a good argument, but the onus is on the creator of the article to assert significance, whether it takes research into obscure hard-copy sources which might―or might not―exist, or 5 seconds on Google. We should not assume something is notable unless it has been demonstrated to be. If that means systemic bias, so be it. Quite frankly I don't understand the need to tackle something which is a natural consequence of significant cultural differences. Best regards, :) CharlieEchoTango (talk) 04:35, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

  Recognizing the existing and ongoing problem, the WP:CSB project is set specifically set to "tackle something which is a natural consequence of significant cultural differences." As a comprehensive encyclopdia, Wikipedia strives to include even those topics that may be of no interest to Amercan or English-only readers and editors. The involvement of many Indian notables is a reasonable indicator that somewhere in India some media source has likely written about this film. We should not pat ourselves proudly on the back because we rely so heavily on "5 seconds on Google" internet searches, and remember that long before there was Wikipedia, folks actually did research in libraries with books or through the perusal of actual hardcopy magazines and newspapers... and even Wikipedia accepts that not all suitable sources exist online, specially for older films. Ahh... I remember those days back in high school and college when computers were big clunky machines run by IBM to compute business profits or by NASA to compute orbital trajectories. I do agree that the onus is on the author to source what he created. And since I personally do not have access to hardcopy Malayalam sources, I would be fine with userfying this new article back to the author at User:Rajeshbieee/Punnaram Cholli Cholli to see what he can do if given a little more than the 7 days AFD generally allows. Schmidt, ^{MICHAEL Q.} 08:15, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

• Userfy Return the article back to its creator and away from the ticking clock of AFD so that he might address the nominator's concerns. Schmidt, ^{MICHAEL Q.} 08:15, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

  To closer: As the article topic is verifiable, I am not adverse to a keep if those more knowledgable about film in that part of the world feel it can be more readily improved if kept in mainspace. My thought toward userficaction was based upon the difficulty we have in the west for sourcing notable topics from other parts of the world, and my desire that those more able to do so, actually have the opportunity. Schmidt, ^{MICHAEL Q.} 06:57, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

• Keep: Sometimes, the tunnel vision of people constrains them to their own little geographical or cultural islands and does not let them see what can be included in Wikipedia and what cannot be. When someone seeks information about something, (+anything, +everything), there you lay, my Wikipedia!, the ocean of all human knowledge. A movie of which the existence is completely perceivable and provable by a population of more than 40 million people DOES deserve its place on Wikipedia! Keep, Keep, Keep ViswaPrabha വിശ്വപ്രഭ (talk) 13:29, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
• Keep:A commercially successful 1985 movie in Malayalam language. The movie is older than internet and so there might not be enough weblinks for reference, but that should not a a reason for deletion. If yes, then thousands of movie pages could be easily deleted. This article has plenty of scope to be expanded. Give it some time. --Sreejith K (talk) 05:50, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
• Strong Keep: It is foolish to demand many references for a 1985 Malayalam film. The editors provided whatever references available. the image provide itself is good enough for its validity. The film had enough notability, which is evident from the star cast of the film. If one browses through the pages of the star cast, he will get a better picture on the notability. IMDB also covers this film. It was a super hit film of the 1980s. Of course, people who don't know much about India, Kerala, Malayalam or Malayalam cinema are likely to put AfD on such articles, but it just a matter of lack of information or knowledge, which is the very thing we are trying to improve, by providing these articles to the world.
  Anish Viswa 06:07, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
• Keep: There's enough notability for the film to exist as a Wikipedia article. I've seen a good number of film stubs with just one line as content, and is quite surprised to see this one nominated for deletion in the first place. --Jairodz (talk) 06:34, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
• Keep: Notable, mainstream film -- Tinu Cherian - 08:45, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
• Keep: Notable film from a well known Malaylam director. --Anoopan (talk) 16:48, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
• Delete. To quote above keep !vote These dont technically qualify as WP:RS. Stuartyeates (talk) 21:49, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
  • Understanding the difficulty we have in the west to find coverage for pre-internet, non-English films, was the reason I proposed a good faith return to its author for continued work, If he is unsuccessful, it will not return. Schmidt, ^{MICHAEL Q.} 00:37, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
• Keep Notable film by notable director with notable actors. The references in the Encyclopedia of Indian Cinema and this mention in The Hindu[1] are both reliable sources that mention the film. This is extremely likely to have many more non-English print sources in addition to those two. First Light (talk) 12:47, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.