Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Awaken (band)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep the band article, merge and redirect the album articles. Black Kite (t) (c) 11:11, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

Awaken (band)

Awaken (band) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log • AfD statistics)

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No indication that band meets the notability criteria. Further there is a major contributor so theres also a conflict of interest. I am also nominating the following related pages because they are dependent on the subject (band's albums):

Party in Lyceum's Toilets (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Tales of Acid Ice Cream (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Beppu Nights (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Maashatra11 (talk) 16:55, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

Question - for the COI issue, I assume you are talking about one or both of the two editors who have contributed most to the article, but how do you know it's a true conflict of interest rather than just someone who is interested in promoting the band? I looked at the talk pages for the articles and users and there are some vague indications but not enough for proof, IMO. (Note: I agree that notability for the band is a legit concern, regardless.) DOOMSDAYER520 (Talk|Contribs) 23:35, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

I am talking about a sole editor which is also the article's creator, User:Meoneko. If you take a deeper look, you can see that all other contributors were trying to fix up/wikify the article.

In any case - Isn't "just someone who is interested in promoting the band" the exact definition of a COI? Cheers, --Maashatra11 (talk) 12:13, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. I guess "interested in promoting..." was a poor choice of words on my part. Maybe "interested in spreading information about..." is closer to what I was thinking. For example, I am "interested in spreading information about" Led Zeppelin so I am a member of their WP project, but that doesn't mean I have a conflict of interest. But you have uncovered some evidence that there might be a conflict of interest with this little band under discussion here. DOOMSDAYER520 (Talk|Contribs) 14:49, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. -- --Darkwind (talk) 21:54, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Belgium-related deletion discussions. -- --Darkwind (talk) 21:54, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
• Weak Delete (band and albums) - the sources that I can read appear to be self-promotional across the board so it looks like the band has bot received independent and reliable third-party coverage. But my vote is "weak" because there are some sources available in Vietnamese, Japanese, and French which might be reliable but I can't read them. Note that group member Fabien Remblier has his own article at French WP so maybe the band should be mentioned in passing over there. Also, the conflict of interest can be a serious issue but is not a reason for deletion in itself. There are different resolution procedures for that problem: see Wikipedia:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard. DOOMSDAYER520 (Talk|Contribs) 15:04, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

MeoNeko (article creator)'s comments Awaken / Gilles Snowcat are underground acts, therefore they don't match the notability of big acts like Deep Purple or Michael Jackson, this can't be argued. However, there are several facts that allow them, in my opinion, to have a place among the Wikipedia pages:

Notable facts: -Gilles Snowcat sang twice on stage with Al Stewart (the singer of "Year Of The Cat") in November 1999: http://home.scarlet.be/~ping9712/awaken-alstu99-engl.htm

-Google hits: -"Gilles Snowcat": 7350 -"雪猫ジル" (Gilles Snowcat in Japanese): 24800 -"Gilles Snowcat" + "Awaken": 2160 -"Party In Lyceum's Toilets": 570 -"Tales Of Acid Ice Cream": 248 -"Beppu Nights": 14.800 -"別府NIGHTS" ("Beppu Nights" in Japanese): 3580

Not notable but interesting facts: -The Awaken page has no promotional purpose: I try to use a neutral tone following Wikipedia guidelines and to include into the "Wikipedia universe" to make it useful with hyperlinks to as many Wiki pages as possible. However I'm still willing to improve the pages following your advices;

-All the facts are official and verifiable among Belgian copyright society SABAM or online shops like iTunes and CD Baby;

-Most of a song lyrics from albums are available online on several sites from several countries, on which I have no control. A Google serach can give you more light on this;

-Awaken / Snowcat are active since 1988, which means 22 years. This is no new act trying to use Wiki to promote itself;

-Crumar synthesizer user: the Crumar synths are now rarely used and I thought it was uselful to mention the musicians whostill play them officially nowadays, no matter their level of notability;

I thank you for having taken time to read this and I am looking forward for more comments.

Gilles MeoNeko (talk) 10:46, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

More on notability As mentioned earlier, band musican Fabien Remblier was a notable TV series actor in the 90's, on the TF1 channel. He played on a seire called "Premiers Baisers" (a page on the French Wiki exists). MeoNeko (talk) 11:57, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

Question- I suppose you're talking about yourself when you say "Gilles" or "Gilles Snowcat"? --Maashatra11 (talk) 16:23, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

Answer- Yes, I started the article and submitted, for the reasons I mentioned previously. After we debated about this for a few days, I still think that the "Awaken (band)" page and the related albums pages still have their place on Wikipedia. The "Gilles Snowcat" page, on the other hand, may look inappropriate since the musical information is already featured on the "Awaken (band)" page, and I would not be against its deletion if it was voted that way.

On the debate about promoting vs informing, the frontier is actually very thin, since once you spread an info about anything, you contribute to promote it in a way. When you spread information about Led Zeppelin, you offer them exposure that can is, in a way, promotion. That's why I try to keep the tone as neutral as possible. MeoNeko (talk) 01:29, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

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Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Arbitrarily0 ^(talk) 00:48, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

• Delete per WP:BAND + WP:GARAGE.--Cannibaloki 23:08, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
• The page has been updated with more references to several external websites. I still think that the Awaken (band) page has a reason to be kept in Wikipedia but I agree that it needs a strong revisin to match the Wiki criteria more efficiently. As for one more notable fact: Awaken is a client of John Sellekaers's Metarc. MeoNeko (talk) 07:41, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

• This musical group has appeared in a music magazine or a newspaper?--200.139.78.207 (talk) 23:33, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
• Yes: at least Rif-Raf, Mofo, Prog-Resiste, Kwad'9, Town Miyazaki (Japan). I can provide scans of those if requested. Maybe other mags/newspapers but I don't have track of everything.MeoNeko (talk) 13:35, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

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Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Cunard (talk) 05:32, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

• Advice to those who are working on this article: If you can uncover old newspapers and magazine that provide significant coverage in reliable sources about Awaken, please scan the newspaper articles to your computer, and then upload them to Flickr or any other photo-sharing site. Then post the links to this AfD. Even if you already have an account on these sites, you should create another one if you don't want your real-world identity linked to your Wikipedia one.

  These sources must be independent of the band or its members. Myspace and Facebook do not aid in establishing notability. Press releases do not establish notability. Only coverage in books, magazines, or newspapers will establish notability. This coverage cannot be only passing mentions (eg. one or two sentences); it must be at least several paragraphs long.

  If reliable sources about this band cannot be found within the next seven days (by 20 May 2010), this article will be deleted. Cunard (talk) 05:32, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

• Press scans: Here are the paper press scans you requested. You can also find them there along with webzines articles about Awaken CDs and webzines articles about Awaken's mp3 songs. I hope this helps. MeoNeko (talk) 15:40, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

• Nice work! Cunard (talk) 02:42, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
• Would you include the scans you posted on Photobucket as sources in the article? Remember to use Wikipedia:Inline citations. Thanks! Cunard (talk) 04:42, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

• Keep per the substantial coverage in reliable sources. This article from Prog-Résiste, this article from Mofo, this article from Rif-Raf, and this article from Koid'9 provide significant coverage about Awaken and its albums. Wikipedia:Notability has been fully established. Cunard (talk) 02:42, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

Are these reliable sources? I never heard of those magazines (and neither did Wikipedia), and they are not in english. I am also noticing you that User:Meoneko acknowledges being the frontman of the band.--Maashatra11 (talk) 12:21, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

• About these sources. Dear Cunard and Maashatra11, I can give you the offcial information about the paper magazines I scanned, just give me 2 or 3 days. You will be able to verify / investigate the official character of them. Thank you. MeoNeko (talk) 18:44, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
• Keep the band's article, merge and redirect the album articles to the band. Meoneko has conclusively proven that the band have received significant coverage in reliable sources so they definitely meet WP:GNG. I haven't yet seen any evidence that the albums do. Alzarian16 (talk) 12:47, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
• Merge albums is a good idea. And the paper magazines Rif-Raf, Prog-Resiste, Koid 9 I mentioned have websites. Mofo, an equivalent to Rif-Raf, seems to have ceased publication. MeoNeko (talk) 19:56, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.