Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Chris Musni

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Delete. For detailed explanation, see talk page. Jerry delusional ¤ kangaroo 03:32, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Chris Musni

Chris Musni (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View log)

Fails WP:BIO... most search hits come from show listings. No cult following or significant press coverage. He did get second place in "Hong Kong Funniest Person Contest" but outside of a brief mention in Time 1, it isn't a notable contest. Delete Mr. Vernon (talk) 06:49, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

• Keep I am the article's primary author. There are many reasons to keep this article.

1. The article has been revised to address some of the original concerns expressed by Mr. Vernon. And despite my requests, Mr. Vernon has not worked with me to try to resolve certain of his comments (such as his belief the the Hong Kong Funniest Person Contest is not notable), although I acknowledge that Mr. Vernon has maintained a cordial dialogue with me on other points. Moreover, the views of one person does not create a consensus necessary to delete the article.
2. Chris has had significant roles in notable comedy performances in Hong Kong, including sharing the stage with Paul Ogata, Jami Gong and other notable comedians at The TakeOut Comedy Club Hong Kong, a notable club. Thus, the article satisfies one of the explicit criteria of WP:BIO.
3. Chris has a cult following, albeit within Hong Kong. I admit this point is difficult to demonstrate via published sources. But you should consider that Comedy Central's website is banned in China. Thus, comedy does not receive a lot of press attention in Asia as a general matter. Stand-up comedy in Hong Kong is an emerging art form, and Chris Musni is one of the leaders, which can be verified through the various show listings that highlight Chris' performances.
4. Chris has made unique contributions to the field of entertainment. He is one of of only a handful of notable comedians of partial Filipino descent. The fact that he is also leading the emergence of stand-up comedy in china is also unique.
5. The contest, the HK International Comedy Festival, where Chris finished third is notable. Aside from a discussion in Time, the contest has also been discussed on Punchline magazine [1] and the South China Morning Post [2]. Paul Ogata, a notable comedian, hosted the finals last year and Tom Cotter is hosting this year. The contest is also run by Jami Gong, a notable comedian. Gchuva (talk) 07:09, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

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Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, --Falcon Darkstar Kirtaran (talk) 08:57, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

• Keep I am not convinced that this article doesn't meet WP:BIO guidelines and believe it should be retained. As his career expands this article will improve.--Mike Cline (talk) 14:46, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

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Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Cirt (talk) 03:56, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

• Delete I couldn't find any significant coverage in reliable sources that discusses him. Morbidthoughts (talk) 22:01, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
  • CommentSignificant coverage in reliable sources is the test for "presumed notability" under WP:BIO. However, you can fail that and still have notability if you have a cult following.Gchuva (talk) 23:31, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
    • Comment Yes, and that assertion of notability should be verified against reliable sources per WP:V. I didn't find any either and the person who asserts it has the burden of producing the evidence behind it. Morbidthoughts (talk) 23:51, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
      • Comment' Under WP:BIO, for a comedian, the standards are if the person meets any of the following criteria:

1. Has had significant roles in multiple notable films, television, stage performances, and other productions -- Chris was a finalist in the 2007 Hong Kong Comedy Competition (a notable competition) and is currently a semi-finalist in the 2008 competition. The verification for this point can be found on the Internet and is cited in the article.
2. Has a large fan base or a significant "cult" following -- How can I prove in the absence of significant press coverage. As I said, stand-up comedy is emerging in HK and there is still considerable censorship in China generally. As such, press coverage is only starting to happen for comedians.
3. Has made unique, prolific or innovative contributions to a field of entertainment -- Chris is leading the stand-up comedy scene in Asia. I consider this to be a very unique contribution. What other Asian stand-up comedians performing primarily in Asia do you considerable more notable than Chris Musni? He is easily among the top 10. The verification for this is, again, his place in the finals as well as all of his show listings in Asia.Gchuva (talk) 00:44, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

• • • • • 1. Unfortunately the evidence for the Hong Kong Comedy competition comes from a self-published source. 2. That's a dilemna with Chinese press. Are there any sources that acknowledge his popularity beyond blogs and message boards? 3. Again I would like a reliable source confirming that opinion. It can't be based on personal opinion or analysis. The source doesn't even have to be in English. Morbidthoughts (talk) 01:05, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
          • 1. Based on my reading, under the relevant wikipedia policy, self-published sources are allowed to be used as sources about themselves if the material is relevant to a discussion of notability. I note that it was unclear to me whether you raised the issue of self-published sources to contest the notability of the competition or of Chris Musni. Secondly, there are discussions of the competition that are not derived from self-published sources. Could you be more specfic about the cite in the article that you think is unsatisfactory? Thanks again.Gchuva (talk) 10:12, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
            • The citation that he was third place is a self-published blog written by some guy named Dean Rainey. Under WP:SPS of WP:V, "Self-published sources should never be used as third-party sources about living persons.". Chris Musni is a third party to Dean Rainey. Morbidthoughts (talk) 14:32, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
            • Same issue with the Tim Tayag blog. Further, how did you get "leading" out of that blog entry when Tayag only says promising? Morbidthoughts (talk) 14:41, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
              • I concede your point here. I suppose I thought that statement had not been, and was not likely to be, challenged (which seems to be the only acceptable reason to not include a citation for each statement in your article. I cannot find anything else on the Internet to support the claim, although I note that if you were to call TakeOut Comedy (the organization that sponsored last year's competition, the club would confirm that he finished in third place.Gchuva (talk) 23:11, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
              • The Tim Tayag blog says "very promising". But ultimately, I used "leading" as I thought it was more accurate and gave a clearer indication as to why Chris is notable. But since I concede that Chris does not have significant press coverage, I thought the cite to the Tim Tayag blog would help (if not completely help) verify the statement. But the third place finish, and the fact that he has been accepted in the 2008 comedy competition explains why he should be considered "leading". You have removed the word leading, but I am going to add a statement about the 2008 comedy competition to further explain the notability.Gchuva (talk) 23:06, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Hong Kong-related deletion discussions. —Morbidthoughts (talk) 14:41, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
• Keep I am new to wikipedia, but I'm not new to stand-up comedy. And Chris Musni is the most devoted comedian in Hong Kong! He has done the most shows in Hong Kong comedy clubs over the last two years. He performs every weekend and comes to open mic every week with new material. He is a future big star and is currently among the leading figures in Hong Kong comedy. He's definitely notable enough for wikipedia. Wikipedia would be lucky to have him :) Stilldating (talk) 13:11, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
  • Shocking that Stilldating's first ever edit to Wikipedia would just happen to be to this AfD. Delete until reliable sources are provided. Corvus cornix_talk 23:34, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

• Delete cited sources are either trivial or unreliable. His first place in the "Hong Kong Comedy Competition" does not appear to be notable per this.[3] - Icewedge (talk) 23:56, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
  • Please try searching "HK International Comedy Festival" or "Hong Kong's Funniest Person".Gchuva (talk) 00:05, 4 September 2008 (UTC) Those searches get more hits.

Ah, yes, I see that it (the festival) is much more notable than I first thought; My apologies for !voting on this AfD uninformed. My overall opinion is unchanged though. - Icewedge (talk) 06:05, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

• Comment For the record, Corvus cornix has informed me of a policy that I should not have told my friends to consider supporting this article. I was unaware that was discouraged. I thought there was only a policy of establishing multiple accounts. I do not know whether Stilldating is someone I know, but I admit to telling friends to consider supporting the article. I apologize for any inconvenience caused. Please consider this a newbie error. ThanksGchuva (talk) 00:08, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment Don't worry, Gchuva, if you sent a notice that was a limited posting, neutral, nonpartisan, and open, then it was perfectly acceptable. See WP:CANVASS Also, Wikipedia assumes good faith especially for new users. If you didn't recruit the new editor solely for the purpose of influencing this survey, then there was nothing wrong with alerting someone who is an expert in this limitied field of Chris Musni. What you should have done is left a note here at the discussion itself that you sent out such a friendly notice. The term meatpuppet is considered derogatory and should be used only with care. Let's not bite the newcomers.--2008Olympian _chitchat^seemywork 00:37, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

• Keep per Mike Cline, and that this is a difficult subject to source better given the internet limitations put on by the Chinese government.--2008Olympian _chitchat^seemywork 00:37, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
• Keep. In my opinion it passes WP:BIO.Demetri1968 (talk) 20:12, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
• Keep. The Hong Kong Comedy Festival is a new, but continuing event that has significant influence across Asia. According to its website[4], there are International competitors. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vivekmahbubani (talk • contribs) 21:14, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
• Delete - As of the time of this comment, given the information provided in the article itself, I don't see how he is notable enough to deserve his own article. Two of the sources used are self-published blogs, and as mentioned before, they are not reliable third-party sources for biographical articles. All the other sources are about stand-up comedy in Hong Kong or the HK International Comedy Fest, and not about Chris Musni. I believe he should be mentioned and/or listed in the article for HK International Comedy Festival along with other finalists and winners, but there doesn't seem to be any evidence so far that he is notable in his own right. Assertions have been made in this discussion about how he has a cult following and a prominent figure in stand-up comedy in HK as an emerging art form. Unfortunately, without reliable sources, these assertions cannot be verified. And if he really is a notable English-language stand-up comic, I don't believe for a second that it would be that difficult to find sources to verify his notability. The expat community in HK is not that big and, assuming he really is a prominent figure, he would have been written about in magazines like BC Magazine[5], HK[6], or WestEast[7], etc etc. Plenty of English-language newspapers and magazines in HK to cater to the expat crowd. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 18:04, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment What about the notability criteria of making a "unique contribution to a field of entertainment"? Don't all his show listings prove that Chris Musni is making a unique contribution to stand-up comedy in Hong Kong? Gchuva (talk) 00:55, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.