Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Fan translation

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Can't sleep, clown will eat me 04:35, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Fan translation

Fan translation (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

If all WP:NOR and WP:V violations were removed, you'd have a stub that couldn't ever be expanded Misterdiscreet 01:09, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

• keep. legitimate topic widespread phenomenon, just as fansub. Mukadderat 01:48, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
  • your justification violates WP:V and WP:ATT Misterdiscreet 03:11, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
• Keep Per Mukadderat. --hello, i'm a member | talk to me! 01:55, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
• keep Just needs better sourcing. -- Ishikawa Minoru 03:15, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
• Keep. Fan translation is a legitimate topic. The article needs a drastic overhaul, but to delete it entirely is going much too far. --Tenka Muteki 04:24, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
• Keep. Too major a topic for total deletion when the main problems could be corrected relatively easily. Faunis 04:37, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
  • instead of saying this article could be corrected relatively easily how about you put your money where your mouth is and you actually do it Misterdiscreet 04:41, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
    • The same could be said to you, too.Kitsune Sniper / David Silva 05:23, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
      • your recommending i put my money where my mouth is and actually do something instead of claiming it can be done? i propose you put your money where your mouth is and find a claim of mine that fits that description. if you can do that i'll see what i can do Misterdiscreet 12:41, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
        • And you seem to be more interested in deleting the topic than actually doing something about its flaws. Kitsune Sniper / David Silva 03:44, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
          • deleting the topic is doing something about its flaws Misterdiscreet 15:06, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete Here's a challenge: try to find a non-list article with more redlinks than this one. Basically reads like a bunch of little nn articles crammed into one big nn article. Full of grotesquely unencylopedic tidbits such as "RPGe's translation of Final Fantasy V was completed October 16, 1997 (version 0.96)." Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 03:19, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete. Well, on the one hand, this article fails WP:V, WP:ATT, WP:NOR, and more alphabet soup; in addition, it's full of fan trivia, lingo, and God knows what else. I'm not 100% certain that it's an unencyclopedic topic; however, if it were kept, it would continue to bloat as more and more ultra-anal geeks add more of their "favorite" fan translation tidbits. Ten Pound Hammer • ^{(((Broken clamshells • Otter chirps)))} 03:31, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
• Strong Keep. Yes, there are problems, but they can be fixed. Although, I suggest a disambiguation link to be placed in its place so it can link to fansubbing, scanlations, and similar topics. Kitsune Sniper / David Silva 05:23, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
• Redirect to Fansub, merge eventual non-redundant information (there's seems to be very little of it)--Victor falk 05:34, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
• Keep Much of the current article content lacks WP:RS; however, this has actually been discussed in published works, e.g. Carless, Simon (2004). Gaming Hacks. O'Reilly. pp. 265–7. ISBN 0596007140., which even mentioned some individual fan translation groups. Also it seems to me that fansub is a type of "fan translation", rather than "fan translation" being a subtopic of subtitling. This article, though, might be better off at Video game fan translation or something, since that's what it's actually about; it doesn't mention fan translations of other media like comics, books (yes, I've seen a few of these floating around the web), etc. Cheers, cab 06:12, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
  • I agree. I mentioned this a bit ago. I've never been comfortable with having Fan Translation dedicated to games only, it should be a disambiguation topic instead. 201.143.47.161 13:39, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
• Strong Keep. Per Kitsune Sniper. Spikeman 06:35, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
• Keep as per cab J. T. Lance 09:02, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
• Merge with Fansub. As ahs been mentined these are both valid topics and do have sourcing - however both of them are also pretty bloated with apparent original research and have a significant amount of overlap. Merging the two into a single article would be the superior solution. ɑʀкʏɑɴ 15:26, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
• Strong Keep. There's absolutely no reason to delete this article, or to merge it with Fansub. Both topics are very different in nature, and good written articles about them could be very lengthy (fansub one already is), so putting that one as a subsection would only lead to massive confusion. What is needed is a good rewrite of both articles. So far, no one gave a good reason, and following some of the Wikipedia guidelines for deletion would mean that practically half of the contents of the encyclopedia should be deleted. --Lashiec 16:13, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

that that half hasn't been deleted doesn't mean that this shouldn't be. see WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS. Misterdiscreet 18:33, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

• Delete or (for consensus) Merge to Fansub as above per Arkyan. Eusebeus 16:47, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
• Strong Keep. I agree with what Kitsune Sniper said. Just because there are problems with the article does not mean that it's not a valid topic for Wikipedia. Characterising editors who contribute to this article as "ultra-anal geeks" probably is a violation of WP:CIVIL, even if their contributions do not meet with Wikipedia standards. I admit that WP:V is somewhat of a problem, since a lot of facts about this topic are only to be found in community forums or blogs. That still doesn't mean that this is not an encyclopedic topic, it just means there are difficulties to work around. Above all, there is no reason to merge this article into fansub, although the opposite merge might be valid. This article is not about subtitling anime.Soluzar 18:01, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete Are there any WP:RSes about this subject? I tried google, came up empty. One would think that if it is a notable phenomenon some media would have mentioned it, some game manufacturer would have mentioned it (sued over it even, they do get touchy), something somewhere other than in the fansites. Could someone point them out? If not, delete is in order. Carlossuarez46 18:41, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
  • There have been a few mentions in industry periodicals; the one that comes to mind immediately is a four-page article in Retro Gamer magazine, issue #25, pages 102 through 105. This was from last May or June. There was one in EGM (October 2000) and a few in Edge - one in May 2003, and one in September 2003 specifically about Bahamut Lagoon. Scans of the EGM and Edge articles can be found here. Similarly, there's an extremely recent interview of Koichiro Sakamoto, Front Mission's producer, by RPGamer, wherein he acknowledges the importance of fan translation. "On a similar note, we told Mr. Sakamoto that a fan translation had been done some years ago for Front Mission 1, and asked how he felt about such efforts. The producer replied that he actually found them very encouraging -- it's something the developers should be doing, but because they're not, the fans are doing it instead. He stated that he'd like to be able to give something back to the fans, and would like to thank personally each of the fans that worked on the translation."[1] Lakmir 20:30, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

rpgamer.com does not qualify as a reliable source. If you can find a BBC, CNN, New York Times, Washington Post, ABC, NBC or any other important coverage, then it may be worth a note. If not a single reliable site find the information newsworthy, nor we. Misterdiscreet 21:41, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Wait, a website that has been around for almost ten years, has relevant ties to game developers and publishers, and which has interviewed lots of individuals in the gaming industry... isn't a valid source? You seem to treat the organizations in your reply in high regard, when they rarely if ever have coverage related to video games at all. RPGamer isn't a blog that some fifteen-year old runs from his basement; this is a very valid source for information. I don't understand why you keep saying it isn't. Kitsune Sniper / David Silva 03:44, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

• Quoting the link from your argument 'Reliable sources' "Reliable sources are authors or publications regarded as trustworthy or authoritative in relation to the subject at hand." BBC, CNN, New York Times, Washington Post, ABC, NBC are not "authoritative in relation to the subject at hand." I read video game news and I have never used these sources for game news since they are not "authoritative in relation to the subject at hand." As a qualifier as a reliable source for "video game news" I propose anyone who has been invited to the 2007 E3 Media & Business Summit to be reliable publications. RPGamer was invited to the 2007 E3 Media & Business Summit. Again I quote your link "Reliable publications are those with an established structure for fact-checking and editorial oversight." From the 2007 E3 Media & Business Summit website "The E3 Media & Business Summit is an exclusive, invitation-only, three-day event which will offer the opportunity for both ESA members and non-members to stage major press events" "Who will be attending? Members of the media, retail, development and financial communities will attend, along with other key industry contacts." It is reasonable to assume that media invited to the 2007 E3 Media & Business Summit to be "Reliable publications" otherwise they would not be invited.StarBeamAlpha 04:04, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

try creating an article on RPGamer. watch how fast it gets deleted. if its not notable enough for an article, why is it notable enough for a citation? Misterdiscreet 15:06, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Not very fast apparently, RPGamer been on wikipedia since 22 July 2005 http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=RPGamer&limit=500&action=history I guess from logic of your previous sentence you just proved to yourself that RPGamer is "notable enough for a citation" I am also working on writing some more stuff for the article including another source from EGM which also has its own article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EGM EGM's circulation in 2005 was 608,133 with source: http://www.magweasel.com/wiki/Electronic_Gaming_Monthly Lets work together Misterdiscreet and make this a better article. :) Do you like playing fan translations as I do?StarBeamAlpha 17:38, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

i concede this round to you. nice job Misterdiscreet 19:07, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

• Strong Keep. I just added a reliable source from a interview with a game developer that mentioned fan translations that was published today, 12 July 2007. Also, here are 4 magazine scans on an article entitled "Japanese Rom Translation" from Retro Gamer, a published magizine. Page1 Page2Page3 Page4 StarBeamAlpha 18:01, 20:49, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
• Keep The added sources make it 'legitimate'. The article just needs a little cleanup now. Joe User NY 01:06, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
• Keep just because an article needs cleanup doesn't mean it should be deleted --Micpp 04:20, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
• Strong Keep this is a needed article. properly referenced, just needs cleanup. Turlo Lomon 09:07, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
• Keep (and cleanup) or a grudging Merge to Fansub. The concept is clearly notable; the article may not be the best imaginable, but that doesn't need deletion to sort out. --wwwwolf (barks/growls) 13:05, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
• Comment vandalizing my user page hurts your credibility. also, looking at the edit histories of most voters, i think there are likely several WP:SOCK violations Misterdiscreet 15:06, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't support vandalism, although after looking at all the badges on your user page I have to question your motives of caring about the subject at hand, do you even play video games? I don't support sock puppets either so feel free to report any suspected sock puppets at this page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Suspected_sock_puppetsStarBeamAlpha 17:38, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Personally, I think the vandalism is childish and doesn't help anyone. However, Misterdiscreet, after your last outburst I think you have sock puppet paranoia.

• Keep The article still needs work, but not so much that deletion is warranted. If Merge is the consensus, I think merging Fansub into this article might be a better idea, since Fan translation is the more general term and Fansub is a neologism anyhow. Qubed 01:08, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
• Weak Keep Article needs a major rewrite, in its current state it does not fit into Wikipedia. Users that care about this topic have already started rewriting it. Give it a few weeks, if it's still in a bad state then, renominate. --Apathor 10:01, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
• Keep. But please, definitely add some proper sources to the article! - Brian Kendig 21:08, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
• Keep DeJap Translations and RPGe pages were both recently deleted, so I'm not sure that a proper merge has developed yet. The article is a work in progress, and it seems to be improving over time. Add more sources; if the page is inadequate in a month, renominate for merging. If a merge is executed eventually, Scanlation and Fansub should be merged into this page. WP:NOR and WP:V are not problematic when legitimate sources are added to the article, and this is already happening. Personally, I think the topic is notable as I have played quite a few of these fan translations when they were the best option available. On a side note, avoid being combative and personal attacks. -Tsunade 23:51, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
• Keep Legitimate topic. May not have been reported on by many magazines (Though a fair amount have reported on it,) you can't deny the size of the scene, and there's no reason it can't be covered here.CrawdKenny 12:34, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
• Keep The topic is notable. Fan translation has been in common practice around since 1998. Legal issues are not a rationale for deletion of this article. The article still needs some work. It mainly needs to be sourced. Decimus Tedius Regio Zanarukando 04:00, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.