Talk:Jews and the slave trade: Difference between revisions
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== Why does the entire article start with this? == |
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"Like their Christian and Muslim neighbors, Jews owned slaves and participated in the slave trade. In the middle ages, Jews were minimally involved in slave trade" |
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This is factually correct, but why is this the first line in the article? immediately downplaying what happened and shifting responsibility to people outside those mentioned in the article.... |
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it immediately gives a narrative of "no big deal, everyone did it" and would never be accepted on a page regarding European/Black slavery. |
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it should be deleted completely and mentioned further on in the article, not in the first line of the first section. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/99.232.122.72|99.232.122.72]] ([[User talk:99.232.122.72|talk]]) 00:51, 15 August 2012 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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It should be noted that 99.232.122.72 is an admirer of a Swedish neo-Nazi political party[http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Sweden_Democrats&diff=prev&oldid=488133968 ]. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/114.35.167.38|114.35.167.38]] ([[User talk:114.35.167.38|talk]]) 05:16, 18 August 2012 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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my opinion on the Swedish Democrats have nothing to do with this bias and intentionally misleading article, my Anti-Islamic friend. |
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are you going to edit the first paragraph, and correct your intentional "error" or will I ? |
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:I'm not convinced any of you should be doing this. Before the first paragraph is changed, let's see what people want it changed to. At the moment it seems ok, but the 2nd paragraph seems to violate [[WP:LEAD]]. There are 8 sections, and the Nation of Islam stuff is just a subection, yet has over 1/3 of the lead. That doesn't make much sense. [[User:Dougweller|Dougweller]] ([[User talk:Dougweller|talk]]) 20:58, 18 August 2012 (UTC) |
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::Why is the [[Nation of Islam]]'s [[The Secret Relationship Between Blacks and Jews]] even being cited in this article, never mind the lead? Are there '''any''' scholars that defend rather debunk that self-published work by a fringe group? The claim that it is somehow notable could also by used to coatrack in the [[Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion]] (with a note that many scholars have debunked that too). If it has to be mentioned at all, it should be way down the article after all the serious stuff has been taken care of. [[User:AndroidCat|AndroidCat]] ([[User talk:AndroidCat|talk]]) 13:09, 25 September 2012 (UTC) |
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:::Hello? I'd prefer to discuss this, rather than stepping on old sore toes. Why are some fringe of a fringe group's claims being used to coatrack a bunch of stuff into the lead of this article? [[User:AndroidCat|AndroidCat]] ([[User talk:AndroidCat|talk]]) 21:06, 12 October 2012 (UTC) |
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::::If you look at the history of this article, you'll see it was written originally to say that Jews were prominent in the salve trade. The text you're talking about is probably left over from then. [[User:No More Mr Nice Guy|No More Mr Nice Guy]] ([[User talk:No More Mr Nice Guy|talk]]) 22:03, 12 October 2012 (UTC) |
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Totally agree with the OP. The whole page downplays the fact Jews took part and indeed Jewish-owned companies helped ship slaves to the States. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/86.186.117.1|86.186.117.1]] ([[User talk:86.186.117.1|talk]]) 03:06, 6 January 2013 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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It makes sense to me that it would be there at the start of the article. The "canard" that the page is talking about is the false accusation that Jews were somehow MORE involved in slavery than Non-Jews. So, it sounds relevant. ~affinity <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/98.248.28.151|98.248.28.151]] ([[User talk:98.248.28.151|talk]]) 07:42, 8 January 2013 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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:Always trying to hide their crimes, calling people "antisemitic neo-nazi conspiracy nuts" when busted. Jews owned majority of slave ships. Jews did slavery in Congo under Leopold II, Jews did the Holodomor and the Gulags. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/77.192.132.59|77.192.132.59]] ([[User talk:77.192.132.59|talk]]) 19:49, 24 January 2013 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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The article should not start with a denial of the topic which is supposed to be under neutral investigation. This just adds more fuel to the fire of the argument that Wiki is totally dominated by Jews. This question is not going away. People will give up on wiki if pages are seen to be biased. <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:SleepyWeisel|SleepyWeisel]] ([[User talk:SleepyWeisel|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/SleepyWeisel|contribs]]) 02:47, 4 February 2013 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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== Title change == |
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Many of the sources describe the minimal role that Jews played in the slave trade and dispute the allegations made by a few fringe sources. As such, the article title should reflect the weight of academic opinion and should be called '''Conspiracy theories about Jews and slavery''', or something that intimates the peripheral Jewish involvement. |
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* [http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/1051402?uid=3738032&uid=2&uid=4&sid=21101245744313 Finkelman] - All serious scholars consider this charge to be ludicrous...there were almost no Jews involved in the African slave trade |
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* [http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=9yQmyXeNEMQC&q=prominent#v=snippet&q=slave&f=false Marvin Perry, Frederick M. Schweitzer] - ...the Jewish presence was minimal. No Jews could be traced in Europe's leading slave trade centres...In the United States, as in Britain, France and Holland the Jewish role in the slave trade was peripheral. |
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* [http://oieahc.wm.edu/wmq/Jan00/FaberJan00.pdf Faber] - "In no period did Jews play a leading role as financiers, shipowners, or factors in the transatlantic or Caribbean slave trades. They possessed far fewer slaves than non-Jews in every British territory in North America and the Caribbean. |
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* [http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/orgs/american/wiesenthal.center/ftp.py?orgs/american/wiesenthal.center//web/historical-facts David Brion Davis] - Medieval Christians greatly exaggerated the supposed Jewish control over trade and finance and also became obsessed with alleged Jewish plots to enslave..it is clear that Jews had no major or continuing impact on the history of New World slavery." |
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* [http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/orgs/american/wiesenthal.center/ftp.py?orgs/american/wiesenthal.center//web/historical-facts Jacob R. Marcus] - "The Jews of Newport seem not to have pursued the [slave trading] business consistently ... [When] we compare the number of vessels employed in the traffic by all merchants with the number sent to the African coast by Jewish traders ... we can see that the Jewish participation was minimal. |
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* [http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/orgs/american/wiesenthal.center/ftp.py?orgs/american/wiesenthal.center//web/historical-facts Bertram W. Korn] - None of the major slave-traders was Jewish, nor did Jews constitute a large proportion in any particular community. |
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* [http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ATq5_6h2AT0C&pg=PA386&dq=jason+h+silverman+jews+slave&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Jd6WUMahN8Wj0QWxk4D4Cw&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=minuscule&f=false Junius P. Rodriguez] - The historical rise and fall of slavery in the United States would not have been affectyed at all if there were no Jews in the South, and whatever minuscule part the Jews played...would have been more then compensated for by other non-Jewish whites |
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* [http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=IB3mBsgfIHQC&pg=PA416&dq=The+available+evidence+indicates+that+the+Jewish+network&hl=en&sa=X&ei=V-GWULr6EoSp0QXC9IGIBA&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false Seymour Drescher] - "The available evidence indicates that the Jewish network probably counted for little in Atlantic slaving." <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">'''[[User:AnkhMorpork|<b><font color="#990000">Ankh</font></b>]]'''.'''[[User talk:AnkhMorpork|<font color="#000099">Morpork</font>]]'''</small> 21:47, 4 November 2012 (UTC) |
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: I can't see anywhere in your sources, that the word "conspiracy" is used. The article should be called what the majority of sources call the subject, and you haven't demonstrated that this is what they call it. --[[User:GRuban|GRuban]] ([[User talk:GRuban|talk]]) 19:01, 10 December 2012 (UTC) |
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The current state of the article is by large not a treatment of the conspiracy theory that Jews dominated slave trade. The article describes to what extent the jews were involved in slave trade in varies periods and geographies. As such the word "conspiracy" should be removed from the title. [[User:Andries|Andries]] ([[User talk:Andries|talk]]) 17:02, 20 December 2012 (UTC) |
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:The desire to use the word "conspiracy theory" seems to be an attempt to assert up-front in the article title that there is no substance to the assertion that Jews were predominant or even a major factor in European/African slave trading. Without personally weighing in on whether the assertion is true or false, I'd like to point out that the standard phrase for indicating the falsehood of such an assertion is to use the term "antisemitic canard" so that the title of this article would be changed to "Jews and the slave trade (antisemitic canard)". Of course, it would help if the article would provide more sourced evidence that this is considered an antisemitic canard. It is not sufficient to make a bunch of assertions that Jews were only somewhat involved in the slave trade. We need to find reliable sources that specifically state that it is an antisemitic canard to assert that Jews were predominant or even significant in the slave trade. --[[User:Pseudo-Richard|Pseudo-Richard]] ([[User talk:Pseudo-Richard|talk]]) 01:26, 21 December 2012 (UTC) |
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::If there isn't such a source, don't we then need a source that says Jews were predominant or significant in the slave trade? Otherwise, "Jews and the slave trade" isn't a topic, it's a google search. [[User:Tom harrison|Tom Harrison]] <sup>[[User talk:Tom harrison|Talk]]</sup> 01:42, 21 December 2012 (UTC) |
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:::Sounds plausible, but untrue. There are multiple reliable sources regarding jews and the slave trade, also named as such. See the references in this article. [[User:Andries|Andries]] ([[User talk:Andries|talk]]) 08:41, 21 December 2012 (UTC) |
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::::The article title should reflect the weight of academic opinion that Jews had a miniscule role in the slave trade which is the leitmotif of the multiple reliable sources that you refer to. Most of these sources were written to dispel the antisemitic canard predominantly propounded by the [[Nation_of_Islam_and_antisemitism#Jews_played_a_major_role_in_slave_trade|Nation of Islam]] and has been described as such by Saul Friedman in Jews and the American Slave Trade (p 250- 254) and Henry Louis Gates in [http://www.nytimes.com/1992/07/20/opinion/black-demagogues-and-pseudo-scholars.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm Black Demagogues and Pseudo-Scholars] among other scholars. The context of the sources is a rebuttal of this canard, and this article, if it is to exist, should reflect this. I agree that changing it to Jews and the slave trade (antisemitic canard) might be preferable. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">'''[[User:AnkhMorpork|<b><font color="#990000">Ankh</font></b>]]'''.'''[[User talk:AnkhMorpork|<font color="#000099">Morpork</font>]]'''</small> 20:39, 22 December 2012 (UTC) |
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:::::I'm not sure that "Conspiracy theories" is the best title. Not every myth is a conspiracy theory. [[User:Marokwitz|Marokwitz]] ([[User talk:Marokwitz|talk]]) 12:20, 23 December 2012 (UTC) |
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== Change the title back? == |
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The current title "Jews and the slave trade (antisemitic canard)" doesn't make sense to me. The article covers a variety of information about "Jews and the slave trade", including the widely accepted view that it is a false statement to say that Jews had a disproportionately large role in the slave trade, and the additional view that such a statement is antisemitic. Since the article discusses all aspects of the factual involvement of Jews in the slave trade (since the Middle Ages), it's unnecessarily restrictive to include "(antisemitic canard)" in the title. It's also a bit misleading: "(antisemitic canard)" would make more sense attached to a title like "Major role of Jews in the slave trade" that is more obviously suspect of being false and/or antisemitic. --[[User:Kaicarver|Kai Carver]] ([[User talk:Kaicarver|talk]]) 14:24, 6 January 2013 (UTC) |
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*I agree. I propose to write in the summary that the view that jews were disproportionally much involved in the slave trade is an anti-semitic canard. Andthen remove anti-semitic canard out of the title (which was by the way an improvement over conspiracy theory in the title). [[User:Andries|Andries]] ([[User talk:Andries|talk]]) 15:14, 6 January 2013 (UTC) |
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**'''Support''' Changed as described by Andries. Much of the article contents, such as the Abolition debate, is unrelated to the current title. [[User:Marokwitz|Marokwitz]] ([[User talk:Marokwitz|talk]]) 08:23, 7 January 2013 (UTC) |
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**'''Support''' Change as described by Andries. [[User:Kaicarver|Kai Carver]] ([[User talk:Kaicarver|talk]]) 02:12, 18 January 2013 (UTC) |
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**'''Support''' "Jews and the slave trade" is a neutral title for the subject at hand. There is simply no need for the "(antisemitic canard)" addition, especially so since the article also covers the actual historical (minimal) involvement of Jews in the slave trade. --[[User:Saddhiyama|Saddhiyama]] ([[User talk:Saddhiyama|talk]]) 11:19, 18 January 2013 (UTC) |
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half if not more of the "sources" cited are themselves Jewish, the idea that they are a reliable source for information is almost as much of a joke as the discussion for this page. |
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and many of the Jewish sources acknowledge Jewish involvement however minimal, yet "antisemitic Canard" is still found in the title. |
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LOL |
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--[[User:Savakk|Savakk]] ([[User talk:Savakk|talk]]) 02:48, 15 January 2013 (UTC) |
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The title makes sense to me. The Canard is the claim that Jews dominated the slave trade and slave ownership. |
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Like "blood libel," it "could" refer to something vague if you took it out of context. But, in context, it is clear that is referring to the Nation of Islam popularizing false claim that Jews dominated the slave trade and slave ownership. ~affinity <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/98.248.28.151|98.248.28.151]] ([[User talk:98.248.28.151|talk]]) 05:51, 30 January 2013 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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== Why exactly did Jews begin "trade on the Atlantic, including slave trade"? == |
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The current lead includes the following text: "At the same time, the monarchies of Spain and Portugal expelled all of their Jewish subjects. As a result, Jews began participating in all sorts of trade on the Atlantic, including the slave trade." Is there strong support for the assertion that Jews only began participating in trade on the Atlantic BECAUSE they were expelled from Iberia? It seems to me that trade would have existed before the expulsion due to Jews being part of the mercantile trade between Iberia and Africa and that any participation of Jews in transAtlantic trade would have been a natural corollary to the development of that trade after the voyages of Columbus, the first of which occurred in 1492. In brief, I am not aware of an argument that says that Jews began participating in "trade on the Atlantic" specifically BECAUSE of the expulsions from Iberia. I would think that the participation in "trade on the Atlantic" continued DESPITE their having been expelled from Iberia. |
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I am no expert in this area so I could be wrong. I'm just sharing my very uninformed gut reaction to the sentence. If I'm wrong, please let me know where I've gone off the rails. |
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--[[User:Pseudo-Richard|Pseudo-Richard]] ([[User talk:Pseudo-Richard|talk]]) 01:17, 21 December 2012 (UTC) |
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== LOL@ the title == |
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"(antisemitic Canard)" |
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How on earth was this allowed to be put up? |
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why are there no "canard" comments in the titles for articles relating to Christians/Muslims and slavery? |
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I assume it's for the same reason that racist comments by Rabbis are not allowed to be put up in Wikipedia pages and the criticism of Judaism section is 1/100th that of the criticisms of Christianity/Islam despite it being a much older faith with a lot of historical controversy. |
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this website is a joke. |
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--[[User:Savakk|Savakk]] ([[User talk:Savakk|talk]]) 02:43, 15 January 2013 (UTC) |
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::The title tells you everything you need to know about the content of the article. It is the first time i have seen a title like this on Wikipedia. But What worries me most is the editors, who have a duty to the fair play of Wikipedia being complicit in what is blatant POV agenda. What they do not realize is the title tells you in a flash the article is damage control and no good. The issue of Jews in the Atlantic slave trade is not a canard. Only the fact that they dominated. So if you want to discuss canards then the article should be Jewish domination in the slave trade (canard). But Jews and the slave trade does not need antisemitic. No more than Arab slave trade should be Arab Slave Trade (Islamophobic political agenda). Like i said most people who know the politics will look at the title and shake their head. And it tells you more about the editors.p.s. Not one single reference links to the opinions of these so-called antisemitic. (another worrying trend) a trial where only the prosecutor presents evidence.--[[User:Inayity|Inayity]] ([[User talk:Inayity|talk]]) 09:29, 20 January 2013 (UTC) |
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== Requested move == |
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<div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 2em 0 0 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;"><!-- Template:RM top --> |
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:''The following discussion is an archived discussion of a [[WP:requested moves|requested move]]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a [[Wikipedia:move review|move review]]. No further edits should be made to this section. '' |
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The result of the move request was: '''moved per request'''. [[User:Favonian|Favonian]] ([[User talk:Favonian|talk]]) 11:50, 27 January 2013 (UTC) |
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---- |
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[[:Jews and the slave trade (antisemitic canard)]] → {{no redirect|Jews and the slave trade}} – We have consensus on the Talk page [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Jews_and_the_slave_trade_(antisemitic_canard)#Change_the_title_back.3F] to change the title back to what it was two months ago, so it shouldn't be a controversial change. However, I can't make the change myself because an article with the original title still exists as a redirect to the current title. So if an Administrator could make the change that would be great. [[User:Kaicarver|Kai Carver]] ([[User talk:Kaicarver|talk]]) 11:50, 20 January 2013 (UTC) |
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:By opening a [[WP:RM|requested move]] discussion the way you did, I think you may have invited an additional seven days of discussion before the move can be made. — [[User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]] <sup>[[User talk:Malik Shabazz|Talk]]</sup>/<sub>[[Special:Contributions/Malik Shabazz|Stalk]]</sub> 12:28, 20 January 2013 (UTC) |
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:: I know, and maybe it was a mistake, but this is why I did it that way: |
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:: 1. the instructions for technical move request [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requested_moves#Requesting_technical_moves] say don't make technical move request if: |
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::: * There has been any past debate about the best title for the page |
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::: * Someone could reasonably disagree with the move. |
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:: 2. it's been 2 months, surely the rename can wait another week. |
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:: --[[User:Kaicarver|Kai Carver]] ([[User talk:Kaicarver|talk]]) 01:34, 21 January 2013 (UTC) |
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*'''Support''' per the discussion above. [[User:Marokwitz|Marokwitz]] ([[User talk:Marokwitz|talk]]) 07:16, 21 January 2013 (UTC) |
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*'''Support''' As I wrote above: "Jews and the slave trade" is a neutral title for the subject at hand. There is simply no need for the "(antisemitic canard)" addition, especially so since the article also covers the actual historical (minimal) involvement of Jews in the slave trade. --[[User:Saddhiyama|Saddhiyama]] ([[User talk:Saddhiyama|talk]]) 10:06, 21 January 2013 (UTC) |
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*'''Support''' per Saddhiyama--[[User:Kimdime|Kimdime]] ([[User talk:Kimdime|talk]]) 13:04, 21 January 2013 (UTC) |
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*'''Support''' per Saddhiyama. -- [[User:Khazar2|Khazar2]] ([[User talk:Khazar2|talk]]) 14:17, 21 January 2013 (UTC) |
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*'''Support''' per Saddhiyama. --[[User:GRuban|GRuban]] ([[User talk:GRuban|talk]]) 20:05, 24 January 2013 (UTC) |
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* '''Support'''; Saddhiyama puts it more neatly than I ever could. [[User:Bobrayner|bobrayner]] ([[User talk:Bobrayner|talk]]) 16:49, 26 January 2013 (UTC) |
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:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a [[WP:RM|requested move]]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a [[WP:move review|move review]]. No further edits should be made to this section.</div><!-- Template:RM bottom --> |
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== Citation needed == |
== Citation needed == |
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: We can do better than citing "later scholars", we can give a cited retraction from the original author. --[[User:GRuban|GRuban]] ([[User talk:GRuban|talk]]) 16:18, 28 January 2013 (UTC) |
: We can do better than citing "later scholars", we can give a cited retraction from the original author. --[[User:GRuban|GRuban]] ([[User talk:GRuban|talk]]) 16:18, 28 January 2013 (UTC) |
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"During the 1490s, trade with the New World began to open up. At the same time, the monarchies of Spain and Portugal expelled all of their Jewish subjects. As a result, Jews began participating in all sorts of trade on the Atlantic, including the slave trade." |
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== Fraudulent Scholarship == |
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Where is the source for this leap in logic? It smacks of historic revisionism - "Since they were expelled, they had no other choice but to engage in slave trading." <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/70.210.129.152|70.210.129.152]] ([[User talk:70.210.129.152|talk]]) 00:09, 12 October 2013 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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:It looks like sources 34 and 35 in the article support it. [[User:Jayjg|Jayjg ]]<sup>[[User_talk:Jayjg|<small style="color:darkgreen;">(talk)</small>]]</sup> 20:54, 13 October 2013 (UTC) |
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== Ottoman Empire == |
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I stumbled upon [http://pluto.huji.ac.il/~yaronbn/No.26.pdf this interesting paper] regarding the common Ottoman Jewish practice of keeping Slavic women as sex slaves. I was surprised neither this article nor [[Slavery in the Ottoman Empire]] nor [[Concubinage]] mentioned this subject. I don't have the time to do it now, but this practice ought to be noted in this article. [[User:Dmcw127|Dmcw127]] ([[User talk:Dmcw127|talk]]) 00:11, 5 August 2013 (UTC) |
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This article illustrates why wikipedia is an unreliable source for history. It is unreliable in regards to WW II, downplaying fraudulent accusations against Germany that they made soap and lampshades from Jews fat and skin in WW II that have been exposed as lies, wikipedia downplays the huge reduction in the number of claimed deaths at Auschwitz from the original 4 million to 1.5 million (and top scholars believe the revised figure is still way too high), wikipedia has downplayed or ignored the fact that the lies about concentration camps in Germany like Buchenwald and Dachau have been exposed - historians now say there were no gassings at these sites or in fact even in all of Germany during the war. All of these revelations (and extensive work done by revisionist scholars) make the claims about Germans gassing Jews during the war appear to be complete lie. |
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== Reads Like an Opinion Piece == |
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Regarding Slavery, wikipedia has the following entry: |
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Tons of assertions, loaded language, etc. This article reads nothing like an encyclopedic article. [[Special:Contributions/151.52.95.171|151.52.95.171]] ([[User talk:151.52.95.171|talk]]) 11:13, 2 October 2013 (UTC) |
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In 1983, Marc Lee Raphael, professor of Jewish history, rabbi,[68] and later Chairman of the Department of Religious Studies at College of William & Mary,[69] wrote Jews and Judaism in the United States: a documentary history which discussed Jews in the Atlantic slave trade and asserted that in "Curacau in the seventeenth century, as well as in the British colonies of Barabados and Jamaica in the eighteenth century, Jewish merchants played a major role in the slave trade. In fact, in all the American colonies, whether French (Martinique), British, or Dutch, Jewish merchants frequently dominated. This was no less true on the North American mainland, where during the eighteenth century Jews participated in the 'triangular trade' that brought slaves from Africa to the West Indies and there exchanged them for molasses, which in turn was taken to New England and converted into rum for sale in Africa."[70] |
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== £20 million buyout by British Government == |
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Rabbi Raphael says above that Jews dominated the slave trade and then he did a 180 degree turnaround in 2008 and refuted his original studies. We have seen a similar phenomenon with "holocaust" historians. After threats upon himself and his family the Australian scholar Dr. Joel Hayward recanted his own extensive study debunking the holocaust and Jewish American historian David Cole was threatened with death by the JDL if he didn't stop refuting Jewish claims about gas chambers. Both these men were forced by threat of death to refute their own study. It is almost certain that some form of pressure was put on Rabbi Raphael to deny his own findings. |
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Suggested edit: It was the slaveowners who were bought out, not the slaves. |
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After noting what the Rabbis wrote, wikipedia never mentions it again and cites "new studies" written almost immediately after Rabbi Raphael's as factual. The newer studies appear to be a reaction to Rabbi Raphael's and other studies that have documented that Jews dominated the slave trade. |
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Thanks. <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Brmcgne|Brmcgne]] ([[User talk:Brmcgne|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Brmcgne|contribs]]) 14:48, 28 December 2013 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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Wkipedia is calling Rabbi Raphael a liar, without coming out and saying it. This entire wikipedia article is a coverup of the extensive involvement of Jews in the slave trade and the article sounds like it was written exclusively by Jews.[[User:Pgg804|Pgg804]] ([[User talk:Pgg804|talk]]) 13:15, 1 March 2013 (UTC) |
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Citation needed
[edit]In an article this hotly disputed, this well patrolled and this well sourced; how does this line remain?
Later scholars would challenge Raphael's assessment of the extent of Jewish participation in the slave-trade.[citation needed]
If it can't be sourced within a week then it should be removed. 97.85.168.22 (talk) 15:05, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
- We can do better than citing "later scholars", we can give a cited retraction from the original author. --GRuban (talk) 16:18, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
"During the 1490s, trade with the New World began to open up. At the same time, the monarchies of Spain and Portugal expelled all of their Jewish subjects. As a result, Jews began participating in all sorts of trade on the Atlantic, including the slave trade."
Where is the source for this leap in logic? It smacks of historic revisionism - "Since they were expelled, they had no other choice but to engage in slave trading." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.210.129.152 (talk) 00:09, 12 October 2013 (UTC)
- It looks like sources 34 and 35 in the article support it. Jayjg (talk) 20:54, 13 October 2013 (UTC)
Ottoman Empire
[edit]I stumbled upon this interesting paper regarding the common Ottoman Jewish practice of keeping Slavic women as sex slaves. I was surprised neither this article nor Slavery in the Ottoman Empire nor Concubinage mentioned this subject. I don't have the time to do it now, but this practice ought to be noted in this article. Dmcw127 (talk) 00:11, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
Reads Like an Opinion Piece
[edit]Tons of assertions, loaded language, etc. This article reads nothing like an encyclopedic article. 151.52.95.171 (talk) 11:13, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
£20 million buyout by British Government
[edit]Suggested edit: It was the slaveowners who were bought out, not the slaves.
Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Brmcgne (talk • contribs) 14:48, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
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