Wikipedia:Good article reassessment/Battle of Atlanta/1

Battle of Atlanta

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch • Watch article reassessment page • Most recent review

Result: No worries, Donner60. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 22:12, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

This 2011 listing has several tags for citations, failed verification, and page numbers needed. Overall, I am not sure this article meets GA criterion 2. Pinging Hog Farm for a subject matter expert's opinion on specific content. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 09:56, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

For a battle of this magnitude and significance, I would argue that only three paragraphs on the actual fighting is under developed. I find it very surprising that Castel's Decision in the West is barely used at all; it's one of the most important modern works on the campaign. I don't have the time or energy right now to take this on. Hog Farm _Talk 12:20, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

I noticed the posting for this. I am rather sure that the defects can be fixed and the article can be revised and expanded to fit the criteria. Note that many of the sources are public domain and can be found on line. I would not use most or all of them because there are almost certainly better ones. I would replace many of these citations to the extent possible with other references from books by reliable historians that I have available. I think I have all but one of the more modern sources that are cited so far in the article and others. The modern ones include the NPS public domain on line source which I would still replace to the extent possible.

As Hog Farm notes, it was a big battle and the article needs to be expanded. As noted in the lead "Despite the implication of finality in its name, the battle occurred midway through the Atlanta campaign, and the city did not fall until September 2, 1864, after a Union siege and various attempts to seize railroads and supply lines leading to Atlanta." That does not negate the point that it was a big battle but it should be kept in mind that there were later battles that were part of the Atlanta campaign. It needs to be kept in context.

I would like to work on this and intend to as I have time. I must note that I am a little backed up right now both as to articles I am working to improve here and by real life. Even if I put some other military history "to do" items on the back burner, I think this is going to take some time to research and revise and bring to a conclusion. So I must note that I am not ready to jump right into this and bring it to a conclusion. To the extent I work on it soon, it is likely to come piecemeal. If the reassessment can wait for a while, as it did with Battle of Gettysburg, I will get the work done. Any help that others can add to move it along would also be welcome. If the article needs to be reassessed very soon, I think it can be restored to GA eventually. Donner60 (talk) 06:33, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Take your time Donner60; I only ask that you give status updates every two weeks or so. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 13:00, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

Thanks. Donner60 (talk) 01:52, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

AirshipJungleman29 I made some additions and improvements and added a few references to the article on August 6-8. Brief battle section appeared to have made a relationship to two actions that were separated in location and to some extent in time of day. The reason for the recall of Confederate cavalry from Decatur did not line up with sources. The article still needs additions and citations. I'll be plodding along with it. Donner60 (talk) 07:41, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

Hi Donner60, you still intending to work on the article? ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 15:46, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

Yes. I have been rewriting the background section offline rather than post it piecemeal. I think it needs some more detail and additional citations. I may work the current section into the new version to the extent needed for completeness or remove the current section altogether if I have covered and expanded the background. Then I will move into expanding the battle section. I have read some of the sources in detail and think I have a grasp of what happened I hope to have more time over the next few weeks to give it the concentrated effort it needs. Sorry for the delay. Donner60 (talk) 01:38, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

AirshipJungleman29 I have moved my work on this article from offline to User:Donner60/sandbox 7. I have drafted a longer background section but I want to work on it more before moving it to the article. I may trim it back at least a little but I think the article needs more background than is in that section now. It was a major battle in the middle of the campaign. This is mentioned but I think more is needed. I still need to add some citations to the draft, which I have available. When the draft section is done, I plan to replace the existing section entirely with the draft section.

I have drafted a paragraph about opposing forces in the campaign for the opposing forces section. That section only has links to orders of battle articles now. I will be removing a similar paragraph that is in the background section now and include the information in the opposing forces section. I will put further text about the units only engaged in the July 22 battle in that section as well. It would be superfluous to take the space to repeat the full orders of battle in the linked articles in this article; it isn't commonly done, of course. The additions should be more than enough to remove the empty section tag.

From my reading, I now have a reasonably good idea of the course of the battle and high points. It will take some time to write it all down. There is more to it than the short original version and the slightly expanded version that I posted last month. Donner60 (talk) 06:28, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for all your efforts, D60. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 22:22, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

AirshipJungleman29 I have done some cleanup in the article and worked some in the sandbox version mostly on Background; a little more to be done on that section, then on to the other sections. I have replaced the empty section tag in the order of battle section and replaced it with a version of the OOB without the regiments listed and in a format to take up less space than if I had put each entry in a laddered fashion. Now that the info is there, the format could be revised or info possible shortened if desirable. Donner60 (talk) 09:23, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

AirshipJungleman29 I haven't given up on this. In this case, I think the whole main section about the battle will need to be revised and lengthened. The Gettysburg revision took some time but could be done piecemeal without distorting the article overall. I have been getting used to being a co-ordinator for Wikiproject Military History and have had a few other distractions. This is at the top of my to do list. I hope to have more solid blocks of time after this weekend to work on this. I have the references ready but I just need to do some concentrated work and get the text written. As with the background, I will write this in the sandbox before posting it in final or near final form. Donner60 (talk) 06:45, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

Donner60, congratulations on your new MILHIST position; I'm sure you'll do great. Hog Farm I don't know how much free time you have these days, but can I ask you for your thoughts on the article? ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 15:47, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

I'll try to find the time to take a look this weekend. Hog Farm _Talk 02:18, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

A few thoughts about the current article, although I have not read much about the battle. 1) Should the Background have any mention of Grant's overall plan to destroy rail line, resources, and infrastructure used to equip and feed the Confederate armies? 2) the Opposing forces section is almost unreadable. We already have an order of battle. Too much detail. Were the various units seasoned vets or inexperienced? How well were they armed? Detail down to a brigade may be too much here, unless a certain brigade had an important role in the battle. Battle: I would get rid of the gallery and instead use maps on the right side of the text to help explain the battle. Someone with a low attention span (me?) should be able to look at two or three maps and have a reasonable understanding of what happened in the battle. I am not a fan of abbreviations such as "Brig. Gen." Siege and closure: Is this part of the battle, aftermath, or what? Legacy: Does the "Map of Atlanta battlefield core and study areas..." do anything to explain the battle or preservation efforts—I'm not a fan. TwoScars (talk) 15:42, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

I agree with TwoScars that the orbat needs work - the full table is best left in the main orbat list. I personally wouldn't provide much detail below the divisional level if it were my choice. The citation needed and page needed tags should be addresssed. The two Historical Marker Database citations are user-generated and are not RS. I can help a bit if help is needed (it would be mainly utilizing Castel for me) but not until at least next weekened, because work is going to be busy for me this week. Hog Farm _Talk 22:05, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

AirshipJungleman29 Hog Farm TwoScars

(1) I have deleted the order of battle detail. I inserted the text and the detail in response to an empty section tag. I was trying to add part of the order of battle section without adding so many lines. It was something of an experiment. It didn't work. I intended to take another look but left it in place pending that further look. As it turned out, I did not get back to it promptly. In retrospect, I could have spent the time better on something else. The text may be enough or I may add a little to it.

(2) I have moved my work on this article from offline or the article itself to User:Donner60/sandbox 7.

(3) I have a longer and improved background section in the sandbox. I don't want to post it or other changes because I think it will overwhelm the rest of the article. Also, I am trying to decide whether the next paragraph or two will be background. At this time I think it will start the battle narrative. I welcome any needed edits or additions to the revised background in the sandbox, but working on the existing text in the article online would be a wasted effort. So please work in the sandbox for now if you wish to work on this.

(3a) After writing this I decided to add the first subsection, objectives, preparation, to the background section. It is a good addition in my opinion though it does make the background section longer than the battle section even before the further expansion in the two additional subsections.

(4) In line with TwoScars's comment, I had already mentioned Grant's plan in the expanded background section (now divided into three subsections) in the sandbox. This is in the subsection that I added after posting the initial remarks here.

(5) I have removed: "Twice more in later campaigns, Hood would seek to lure the thrust of a Union axis of advance upon a position and/or force that he was commanding to seek an engagement. The Union's forces were not turned in those cases either.{{citation needed|date=June 2019}}" I had removed it in my sandbox work. I could not find any source or sources for this. Since it is superfluous, I have now deleted it.

(6) I don't like the Brig. Gen. abbreviations any more than the NATO abbreviations over which we had some controversy recently. I don't use them in my writing but will sometimes leave them in articles if extensively used. I think the guideline on existing style may not apply to require keeping them, especially since I will likely become the primary author. I have now changed the remaining abbreviations to full titles.

(7) I had not gotten to the Historical Marker data base citations yet but I agree that they are not RS.

(8) I also have not looked at the pictures, etc. Some maps are needed because they help understanding the several movements over the course of the battle.

(9) The article is inaccurate, not properly organized, incomplete and needs extensive rewriting and additions. (All of TwoScars's comments accurately reflect this.) I think that working on it piecemeal is not possible (for me to do a good job, anyway) as it was with Battle of Gettysburg. There are some inaccuracies and too much detail left out of the existing text.

(10) Even though my previous work was in September, I have a good understanding of the battle and quite a few sources, including Castel at hand.

(11) Real life, to some extent, learning some co-ordinator work and a few distractions into less important editing have slowed me down. For me, this rewrite will require solid blocks of concentrated time because it is almost like writing a long article from scratch. I am sure I can do it. I should have more such time in November, but I sometimes overestimate that of course.

(12) None of this is meant to discourage any help on this nor is it meant to pass it off to others, especially others who have so many other things to do. I thought it was important to note the few changes I made today and, more importantly, the work in the sandbox to avoid duplication of effort. I am not sure where we stand on this with respect to timely completion, but I have not abandoned it and it is on top of my to do list on my user page. Donner60 (talk) 22:32, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

Donner60, this GAR has been open for nearly four months. As you say, the article "is inaccurate, not properly organized, incomplete and needs extensive rewriting and additions". I am leaning towards delisting the article and leaving it for you to work on at your leisure and discretion. Would that be fine? ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 13:24, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

I am ok with that because I am not sure whether I can improve it enough in the near future to complete the revision soon, even with some work done in the sandbox. I think we should not depend on the few others who might be able to help with this. They have many other things to work on. In the case of Hog Farm, we need to let him concentrate on his career and family and not take on big tasks, if any. My only hesitation now is that it may take time for a new assessment once it is in shape. That's not enough to leave it hanging however. Real life, the holidays, co-ordinator actions and the need for blocks of time and energy may all cause delays. Sorry for keeping this hanging but I plan to work on it and eventually complete it. Maybe it will reappear sooner than we think. Thanks for your patience. 00:01, 18 November 2023 (UTC) Donner60 (talk) 00:01, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.