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m Maintain {{WPBS}} and vital articles: 6 WikiProject templates. Merge {{VA}} into {{WPBS}}. Keep majority rating "C" in {{WPBS}}. Remove 5 same ratings as {{WPBS}} in {{WikiProject History}}, {{WikiProject Azerbaijan}}, {{WikiProject Iran}}, {{WikiProject Artsakh}}, {{WikiProject European history}}.
 
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== First sentence ==
==Azerbaijani khanates==
{{ping|CuriousGolden}} I don't agree with the way the first sentence of the lede is written. This article is meant to elaborate about the History of the Azerbaijan Republic, discussing everything that happened in relation to its soil, from prehistory to contemporary times. This concept doesn't equal to the history of ethnic [[Azerbaijanis|Azerbaijan'''is''']]. We are both well aware that the entire article needs to rewritten (I might do it myself at some point in the future), but the first sentence of the lede is just too misleading for it to remain as it is. - [[User:LouisAragon|LouisAragon]] ([[User talk:LouisAragon|talk]]) 12:30, 20 February 2021 (UTC)
Alborz, first of all, the Iranica you are referring to gives some [http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/azerbaijan-index inaccurate information on Azerbaijan]. For instance, it states ''historically an Iranian region, by anti-Russian separatist forces of the area when, on 26 May 1918 they declared its independence and called it the Democratic Republic of Azerbaijan''. Well, the actual independence day was declared on May 28, not 26. Furthermore, the source refers to Tadeusz Swietochowski, who in turn, identifies the khanates as Azerbaijani, not Iranian. See [http://books.google.com/books?id=cozSOSsv7ZsC&pg=PA2&dq=Swietochowski+Azerbaijani+khanates&hl=en#v=onepage&q&f=false] and [http://books.google.com/books?id=t5HKjm6vs3YC&pg=PA189&dq=Swietochowski+Azerbaijani+khanates&hl=en#v=onepage&q&f=false]. There are many more sources, but I think there is a clear distinction between the Azerbaijani khanates above the Kura river and Iranian below it. [[User:Tuscumbia|<font color="#0000FF"><strong>Tuscumbia</strong></font>]] ([[User talk:Tuscumbia|<font color="#DC143C">''talk''</font>]]) 15:24, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
:It's similar to the lead in [[History of Armenia]]. The sentence you added [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=History_of_Azerbaijan&diff=1007883296&oldid=1007883250&diffmode=source here] doesn't sound very nice in my opinion (it's quite short), but if you can improve it, then we can definitely change it. (Perhaps it could be made similar to how it is on [[History of Turkey]]?) — [[User:CuriousGolden|<b style="color:#c29d25">Curious</b><b style="color:#c29d25">Golden</b>]] <b style="solid black"> [[User talk:CuriousGolden|(T·]][[Special:Contribs/CuriousGolden|C)]] </b> 14:30, 20 February 2021 (UTC)
:The inaccuracy in one article , does not means the whole Encyclopedia may not be used as a reference . The determining factor in assessing the value of an article either in an Encyclopedia or in a book , is the writer of the article . In this example , there can be two reasons in giving 26 may and not 28 : One (more probable) is wrong typing , that is not so important at all and does not disqualify the Iranica as a reliable source , Two (less probable) is that the date of declaring the break down of [[Transcaucasian Democratic Federative Republic]] is 26 may , and so the unofficial date of independent Azerbaijan may be considered two days before the official date of 28 . But anyway , that does not have any relevance to other articles in Iranica . About Swietochowski , he is an expert in contemporary history of Azerbaijan republic , but editors like [[Clifford Edmund Bosworth|Bosworth]] are experts in this especial field .Anyway , when we are citing the Iranica as a reference and we are citing the text in foot note , it is definitely wrong to change a word in the Wikipedia article : if you think Iranica may not be cited , then delete the source and sentence all (after proving Iranica is not a RS)--[[User:Alborz Fallah|Alborz Fallah]] ([[User talk:Alborz Fallah|talk]]) 17:44, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

:And also look at our previous debate about this topic in [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:History_of_Azerbaijan/Archive_2#.22Independent.22_Khanates_in_the_18th_century_.3F.21].--[[User:Alborz Fallah|Alborz Fallah]] ([[User talk:Alborz Fallah|talk]]) 17:47, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

:And to add by present change , the other sources like Britannica : [http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/46781/Azerbaijan/129462/History#ref481438] is also falsely neglected (Britannica supports Iranian Khanates ) and changing the sentence has made the citing wrong --[[User:Alborz Fallah|Alborz Fallah]] ([[User talk:Alborz Fallah|talk]]) 18:18, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

:To show that the wrong typing problems are not so important , I dare to mention in your comment , you typed the river [[Kura River|Kura]] , instead of [[Aras River|Aras]] ! --[[User:Alborz Fallah|Alborz Fallah]] ([[User talk:Alborz Fallah|talk]]) 18:31, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

::Alborz, that's an encyclopedia we're talking about. If the encyclopedia Iranica is not sure when exactly the document on proclamation of independence of a state was signed, how can we refer to its article on khanates? One may go around with various reasons for those mistakes, but it's inadmissable to accept an assumption when there are facts.
::There are tons of sources identifying the khanates as Azerbaijani. With the Azerbaijani Turkic speaking population and independent and semi-independent status, these khanates were Azerbaijani and not under the Iranian rule or had Persian speaking population. Throughout their short history they were subdued by Persia and Russia, but we can't say they were Russian khanates, can we? Britannica does not say anything about them being Iranian, but that they were "Persian ruled" at one point in time. Considering how many times the Iranian shahs attacked these khanates, speaks of their independent status as separate states. Some allied with other khanates, some with Georgia, some with Russian to protect themselves against Iran.
::Yes, apologies about Kura. Yes, it should have been Aras. But you're forgetting that I am an editor, not an online encyclopedia to which many refer to. My typos can be admissable, encyclopedia typos are not. [[User:Tuscumbia|<font color="#0000FF"><strong>Tuscumbia</strong></font>]] ([[User talk:Tuscumbia|<font color="#DC143C">''talk''</font>]]) 14:55, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

A typo does not discredifies an important Encyclopedia.I think there is no doubt in value of Encyclopedia Iranica as an example of Reliable Source for Wikipedia , and same is trough about Britannica .Britannica says : <blockquote>'''''Persian<nowiki>[Iranian]</nowiki>-ruled''' khanates in Shirvan (Şamaxı), Baku, Ganja (Gäncä), Karabakh, and Yerevan dominated this frontier of Ṣafavid Iran....Henceforth the Azerbaijani Turks of Caucasia were separated from the majority of their linguistic and religious compatriots, who '''remained''' in Iran.''</blockquote> For to be used in Wikipedia , we don't need a '''''ton''''' of sources , just show me a few of reliable sources that say the feudal local authorities in that region were not a part of Iranian state and/or had no connection with Iranian state.

Again I am asking <big>'''is it right that you changed a sentence with two sources , but the citation still remains in the text'''</big> ? --[[User:Alborz Fallah|Alborz Fallah]] ([[User talk:Alborz Fallah|talk]]) 10:44, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

:Alborz, with all due respect, I'm not really understanding what you're asking. Why should I remove Iranica? I do accept it as a source but have highlighted some mistakes on that specific page which describes the khanates as ''Iranian''. Just google ''Azerbaijani khanates'' in Google Books and you'll come to find many reliable sources attesting to what I argue about. It's no surprise that many authors refer to khanates above Aras as ''Azerbaijani'' and never refer to the ones below Aras as ''Azerbaijani''. Please, refer to the actual sentence in the article ''...sometimes de facto independent founded under nominal Persian suzerainty'' which clearly describes the status of some of the khanates and does not contest Persian suzerainty at certain periods of time throughout their existence, but the fact that they were Azerbaijani with language spoken, ethnic composition and so forth is undeniable. To make it clear again, these were khanates, independent and semi-independent and some under Persian suzerainty, at different periods of time. [[User:Tuscumbia|<font color="#0000FF"><strong>Tuscumbia</strong></font>]] ([[User talk:Tuscumbia|<font color="#DC143C">''talk''</font>]]) 14:02, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

::I agree with this sentence that the '''''khanates were Azerbaijani with language spoken and ethnic composition''''' : that's right . But you know , being Iranian has no contradiction with being Azerbaijani (in ethnic and lingual terms ) . Some of the Khanates were in rebellious state against the emerging central government ([[Qajars]]) in the eve of Russian invasion (like the Quba khanate (Haji Chalabi) and Qrabagh khanate (Javanshirs)) , some of them were strong supporters of the new dynasty in Iran ( like Ganjeh , Iravan and Nakhjavan khanates) and some of them were relatively neutral (like Baku and Talish khantes). Over all , I think if you mean to show the ethnic composition of the khantes , they were Azeri language and Azeri ethnic , If you mean the political orientation of the khantes , most khantes were Iranian origin , some of them loyal to new Iranian government and some of them in rebellion .--[[User:Alborz Fallah|Alborz Fallah]] ([[User talk:Alborz Fallah|talk]]) 08:45, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
:::Well, you just answered your own question. The khanates were Azerbaijani (ethnicity, language, independent, semi-independent status) but some were ''under nominal Persian suzerainty'' as the line in the article states. As I said, some were dependent, some independent, some were continuously and directly engaged in warfare with Qajars like Karabakh and Shaki khanates, some like Guba khanate assisted them indirectly, some fought between themselves, etc. So, the article confirms their status and being Azerbaijani based on sources and that they were at times under Persian suzerainty. Karabakh khanate signed the Kurekchay Treaty in 1805 coming under Russian suzerainty, while it was officially abolished in 1813, but we don't say it was a Russian khanate, do we? [[User:Tuscumbia|<font color="#0000FF"><strong>Tuscumbia</strong></font>]] ([[User talk:Tuscumbia|<font color="#DC143C">''talk''</font>]]) 13:49, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
:We say it was Russian if the Russian build it in first place. Al most all Khanates in north of the Aras river were built by Iranian central government at first.If some of them engaged in war with Qajars , that was because the Qajar government in Iran was in it's beginning period and was not an official government at first . The Qajars themselves were originally from the Qarabagh region and in the time of Nader Shah , he dislocated a group of them to northern Khorasan , and some of them remained in the territory of today's Azerbaijan republic , so that ethnic composition is not decisive at all , but building local states under the central government supervision was very common in the time of Safavid , Afsharid and Zand Iran . Almost all khantes has known history of building by central government of Iran . I think we can't change the text of the reference just because we think it is wrong and we are not allowed to put our own understanding in the article . --[[User:Alborz Fallah|Alborz Fallah]] ([[User talk:Alborz Fallah|talk]]) 15:42, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
::Hmmm... Where exactly do you get that from? The khanates were not built by central government, but were founded by clans and royal clan leaders, many remaining under Persian suzerainty. I'm not sure what exactly you want from the article if it already states that khanates were under Persian suzerainty? [[User:Tuscumbia|<font color="#0000FF"><strong>Tuscumbia</strong></font>]] ([[User talk:Tuscumbia|<font color="#DC143C">''talk''</font>]]) 15:30, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
:::Every Khan from any clan had to have a [[Firman (decree)]] from the Shah , including some rebellious Khans like [[Panah Ali Khan]] , that had the Khan decree from [[Adil Shah]] , and [[Ibrahim Khalil Khan]] from [[Karim Khan]] ; and every khanate has been a subdivision of feudal system of central government . I only want to say if a sentence is being used from a reference - Iranica & Britanica - , it should be used as same in the text . --[[User:Alborz Fallah|Alborz Fallah]] ([[User talk:Alborz Fallah|talk]]) 09:10, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
::::Alborz, if you open any reliable third party source describing the establishment of the khanates, at the very least, the ones above Araz, you will see them stating that the khanates were founded after Nadir Shah's death. So, whether or not a firman was ever obtained from a Shah is irrelevant. I am guessing that firman meant a permission? Well, even if there was such a permission or decree to have the khanates established, it was not Persian governmental authorities establishing the khanates, but independent lords, some of whom eventually went under Persian suzerainty and not at its own will, but to protect themselves from other khans, Georgia or Russia. [[User:Tuscumbia|<font color="#0000FF"><strong>Tuscumbia</strong></font>]] ([[User talk:Tuscumbia|<font color="#DC143C">''talk''</font>]]) 14:06, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
::No problem in obtaining third party opinion , if you agree I will ask for it . And no , NONE of the khanates were founded after Nadir Shah's death (except Javanshirs of Qarabagh that get their decree - after Nadir Shah- from [[Adil Shah]] and [[Karim Khan]]). Just name any one of them that you want , and I will show the sources that show they were founded by which shah and in which date . As an example , just to show you the point , I show the document about khanate of Shaki , (because Hajji Chalabi was a rebellious khan against the Iranian government): [http://www.asnad.org/en/document/801/ Farman by Nadir Shah Afshar] and [http://www.asnad.org/en/document/802/], that shows the khanate was founded many years before the death of Nadir shah . --[[User:Alborz Fallah|Alborz Fallah]] ([[User talk:Alborz Fallah|talk]]) 08:12, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
:::Alborz, I was talking about third party sources, not the third party opinion, although you're more than welcome to file an RfC as well. Please read [[Shaki Khanate]] based on third party scholars who speak about foundation of Shaki Khanate. [[User:Tuscumbia|<font color="#0000FF"><strong>Tuscumbia</strong></font>]] ([[User talk:Tuscumbia|<font color="#DC143C">''talk''</font>]]) 16:29, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
::::By the third party source , if you mean the present source is not neutral , take a second look to that page and found it out that is a document of Azerbaijan SSR , in the history institute of Baku , and it is published in an Azeri book !The Russian source ([http://slovari.yandex.ru/~%D0%BA%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B3%D0%B8/%D0%91%D0%A1%D0%AD/%D0%A8%D0%B5%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%BD%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B5%20%D1%85%D0%B0%D0%BD%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B2%D0%BE/]) mistake is confusion of Nukha with Shakki , I mean both of them are now a new city , but before Haji Chalabi , the city - that was an Iranian khanate from the time of the Safavid Shah Tahmasp - was in else where (in the bank of the river ) but at the time of Nadar shah , the city was destructed by the river flood and in the new city , the new khan that was not elected by Iranian shah took the position , so the Russian source say the Khanate was built by the renegade khan : He built the city , but not the khanante : it was a khanate from the Safavid time (200 years before 1743).--[[User:Alborz Fallah|Alborz Fallah]] ([[User talk:Alborz Fallah|talk]]) 11:51, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

::And again , as you know , [http://az.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C9%99lim_xan_%C5%9E%C9%99kili salim khan shaki] was elected as the khan by Agha mamad khan qajar , as after Russian's victory , he flee to Iran with many of his tribesmen and they are among Shahsavan's tribe .--[[User:Alborz Fallah|Alborz Fallah]] ([[User talk:Alborz Fallah|talk]]) 12:07, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

:::Come on now, you're using an unacademic argument that the city flooded and then built anew, and hence it's a different city :) Shaki, as some other cities such as Shemakha, Quba, Baku, Moscow (you name it) had seen destruction by erathquakes, fires, etc and was rebuilt but that doesn't mean it's a "new" city. The [http://www.asnad.org/en/document/801/ link] to the document actually supports my arguments above. Haji Chalabi Khan who founded the khanate (google all reputable scholars who trace foundation to him) was as rebelious as some other Azerbaijani khans above Araz river and the Persian Shah fought him, appointing someone to take his place because his khanate did not want to go under Persian domination. The Russian [http://slovari.yandex.ru/~%D0%BA%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B3%D0%B8/%D0%91%D0%A1%D0%AD/%D0%A8%D0%B5%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%BD%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B5%20%D1%85%D0%B0%D0%BD%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B2%D0%BE/ source] also confirms the khanate was founded in mid 18th century in the northern part of Azerbaijan ''under leadership of Haji Chalabi Khan'' against Iranian domination. [[User:Tuscumbia|<font color="#0000FF"><strong>Tuscumbia</strong></font>]] ([[User talk:Tuscumbia|<font color="#DC143C">''talk''</font>]]) 14:45, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

::::I don't exactly know why Russian source says so . But it is well documented that the Shaki khanate exists before Haji chalabi . As an example , this khanate in the era of Safavid Shah Tahmasp helped Shirvan khanate in war against the Safavid shah and that caused the shah to displace a part of population after the defeat of the khans .--[[User:Alborz Fallah|Alborz Fallah]] ([[User talk:Alborz Fallah|talk]]) 20:46, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
:::::Alborz, I am disputing your knowledge, but is that knowledge based on third party sources? As far as I can remember as per third party reliable sources, at least khanates above Araz were established after the death of shah by lords who declared them independent (some agreed to be under Persian suzerainty). [[User:Tuscumbia|<font color="#0000FF"><strong>Tuscumbia</strong></font>]] ([[User talk:Tuscumbia|<font color="#DC143C">''talk''</font>]]) 21:23, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
:Again , please look at [http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%94%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B2%D0%B8%D1%88_%D0%9C%D1%83%D1%85%D0%B0%D0%BC%D0%BC%D0%B5%D0%B4_%D1%85%D0%B0%D0%BD] , how can Darvish khan , the alleged grand father of Haji chalabi ,can be a khan , before building that Khanate ?--[[User:Alborz Fallah|Alborz Fallah]] ([[User talk:Alborz Fallah|talk]]) 22:14, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
::While I don't dispute the name or relative links of Darvish khan, I must note that [[khan (title)|khan]] is a title and does not necessarily mean, the person was the founder or ruler of a khanate. There have been many khans from [[Genghis Khan]]s to [[Behbudkhan Javanshir|Behbud Khan]]s and [[Fatali Khan Khoyski|Fatali Khan]]s. Not all of them were founders of a khanate. He could have been a khan ruler of a city, of a tribe, etc. but I don't see a record of him being the khan of Shaki khanate. [[User:Tuscumbia|<font color="#0000FF"><strong>Tuscumbia</strong></font>]] ([[User talk:Tuscumbia|<font color="#DC143C">''talk''</font>]]) 23:00, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
:::Your Russian tends to be better than mine , doesn't the sentence "Дервиш Мухаммед хан, Шекинский хан (1524—1551)." translates to "Dervish Mohammed Khan of Sheki Khan (1524-1551)." Is it part of his name ?!--[[User:Alborz Fallah|Alborz Fallah]] ([[User talk:Alborz Fallah|talk]]) 05:39, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
:::As another source , look at this one :[http://www.history.az/pdf.php?item_id=20100622041749649&ext=pdf Azərbaycan Tarixi Portal] . I think you can accept it as a reliable source . As you see , in that document , many times the title of Khan is used for the governors before Haji Chalabi , and you can see in page 10 , it has written that Hacı Çələbi himself was a vakil (officer) of Nadir Shah for the Sunni Shakki citizens . And about several Khans of Shakki like Salim Khan , you can see they received their decree from the shah .--[[User:Alborz Fallah|Alborz Fallah]] ([[User talk:Alborz Fallah|talk]]) 15:41, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
::::Alborz, I understand your point but what we're talking about is independent khanates, not provinces of Persian Empire before these khanates became independent. What you refer to (''khan'') is a title as I already mentioned and it does not imply that there were khanates per se. Khan could have been a military lord of a city, village or a province. For instance, there have been "qeza"s and "mahal"s in Persian and Ottoman empires, and they continued to be named so within Russian Empire ("uyezdy" and "magaly") and within Azerbaijan Democratic Republic ("qezalar", "mahallar"). So, the point that there were lords with the name title ''khan'' does not mean they were rulers of the same khanates which emerged after Nadir Shah's death and it does not mean that if there was something called ''khanate'' before his death (which I don't see any evidence), that they were of the same status as the khanates we are discussing here. Thank you. [[User:Tuscumbia|<font color="#0000FF"><strong>Tuscumbia</strong></font>]] ([[User talk:Tuscumbia|<font color="#DC143C">''talk''</font>]]) 20:16, 19 December 2011 (UTC)


== History of Azerbaijan , Khanates ==


One party says because the reliable source (Iranica) has an error in the date of an event , other sentence that is cited from the source ,that has no connection to the wrong date, should be changed as "Azerbaijani khanates" instead of "Iranian Khanates" . I think we can not cite a sentence from a source , but change it . Besides , other reliable source (Encyclopaedia Britannica) says the same as Iranica (in my opinion ).[[User:Alborz Fallah|Alborz Fallah]] ([[User talk:Alborz Fallah|talk]]) 17:41, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

=== Using the source or changing the sentence===

I want to ask the opinion of the editors about this change : [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=History_of_Azerbaijan&action=historysubmit&diff=462112921&oldid=462084797].The [[Encyclopædia Iranica]]'s text is as fallows : <blockquote>''This new entity consisted of the '''former Iranian Khanates''' of Arrān, including Karabagh, Baku, Shirvan, Ganja, Talysh (Ṭāleš), Derbent (Darband), Kuba, and Nakhichevan (Naḵjavān), which had been annexed to Russia by the treaties of Golestān (1813) and Torkamānčāy (1828) under the rubric of Eastern Transcaucasia.''
[http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/azerbaijan-index]</blockquote>

The alternative party says (see upper section )because that article (Iranica) has an error in the date of an event , the sentence that is cited from it , should be changed as "Azerbaijani khanates" instead of "Iranian Khanates".

More than that , what is the opinion of the other editors about the interpretation of the [http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-129462/Azerbaijan Encyclopaedia Britannica Online: History of Azerbaijan Encyclopædia Britannica] ? <blockquote>''Persian -ruled khanates in Shirvan (Şamaxı), Baku, Ganja (Gäncä), Karabakh, and Yerevan dominated this frontier of Ṣafavid Iran....Henceforth the Azerbaijani Turks of Caucasia were separated from the majority of their linguistic and religious compatriots, who remained in Iran.''</blockquote>

Can Britannica be used as a source for "Iranian Khanates" ?--[[User:Alborz Fallah|Alborz Fallah]] ([[User talk:Alborz Fallah|talk]]) 17:45, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

;Comment
Alborz, I think you're slightly misrepresenting my argument here. While I had pointed out some erroneous entries in Iranica, I also gave you the reasons why these khanates are not Iranian (please see above). The books by renown scholars and authors do indicate the [http://www.google.com/search?q=Azerbaijani+khanates&tbm=bks&tbo=1 khanates were Azerbaijani], not Iranian. Iranian khanates which were ruled directly by the Iranian shah were located below the [[Aras river|Araz river]]. The ones above it were Azerbaijani, both by population of Azerbaijani Turks and by geographical name and location. They were independent (when independent they often fought the Iranian shahs who attacked them from the south) and semi-independent (when semi-independent, they were under Persian suzerainty). Thank you! [[User:Tuscumbia|<font color="#0000FF"><strong>Tuscumbia</strong></font>]] ([[User talk:Tuscumbia|<font color="#DC143C">''talk''</font>]]) 15:34, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
:Most of the ordinary editors are not familiar with this topic and if we ask them to comment about the whole disagreement , they would not participate . I reduced the complex problem to a simple one of citing from the sources - that has a general guideline in Wikipedia - to get the response from the editors . So simple : <big>'''Can we select a sentence from a source , but change it in the article to a new opposite one with any reason'''</big> ?--[[User:Alborz Fallah|Alborz Fallah]] ([[User talk:Alborz Fallah|talk]]) 09:22, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
::So, your intent is to just get one editor come and answer one limited question to possibly support you, and then leave while the counter argument is not considered? I'm sorry Alborz, but the very nature of the discussion can't be ignored. [[User:Tuscumbia|<font color="#0000FF"><strong>Tuscumbia</strong></font>]] ([[User talk:Tuscumbia|<font color="#DC143C">''talk''</font>]]) 14:33, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
:::We will reach an end result Step by step.I have objections against the presented sources , but first we may reach a result in clear problems.First is to reach a consensus about how to do citing from books.Shan't we use the sources in correct manner ?[[User:Alborz Fallah|Alborz Fallah]] ([[User talk:Alborz Fallah|talk]]) 16:42, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
::::I'm sorry Alborz, but your very request for comment misrepresents my arguments. The argument is not because Iranica "has an error in the date of an event". The indication of an error was to let you know that this online encyclopedia may not be precise and erroneous with facts, while the addition of reliable sources by neutral historians stating the opposite should be added. A third party commenting here needs to be aware of the details. [[User:Tuscumbia|<font color="#0000FF"><strong>Tuscumbia</strong></font>]] ([[User talk:Tuscumbia|<font color="#DC143C">''talk''</font>]]) 16:48, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
:::::Do you mean the Iranica is not a reliable source ? If yes , we can talk about it .--[[User:Alborz Fallah|Alborz Fallah]] ([[User talk:Alborz Fallah|talk]]) 17:35, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
::::::Alborz, I don't say it's unreliable. You must be misunderstanding me. I am saying the reliable sources that define the khanates as Azerbaijani which were added to the article indicate these were independent and semi-independent khanates under Persian suzerainty and when you tried to argue otherwise presenting Iranica as a source, the response was that Iranica can be erroneous due to incorrect factual mistakes on other related data. In general, as I had already stated above, I don't understand what exactly we're discussing for so long if the article already says these Azerbaijani khanates were under Persian suzerainty. [[User:Tuscumbia|<font color="#0000FF"><strong>Tuscumbia</strong></font>]] ([[User talk:Tuscumbia|<font color="#DC143C">''talk''</font>]]) 18:15, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
*'''Comment''' - Perhaps it would make the article more readable and neutral to use the plain word "Khanates" without prefixing it as Iranian or Azerbaijani. I don't see what value the prefix adds, and since the sources are using both, the prefixes seem to be generating more heat than light. I recommend removing the prefix altogether, and creating a footnote that briefly summarizes the sources that say Iranian vs Azerb. Alternatively, capture the Iranian/Azerb choice in a sentence in the prose, and explain to the reader how the Khanates are considered to be Iranian in some contexts, etc. --[[User:Noleander|Noleander]] ([[User talk:Noleander|talk]]) 05:25, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
::The word ''Azerbaijani'' does not necessarily imply the political affiliation, but a geographic and ethnic one. Hence the usage of word combination ''Azerbaijani khanates'' by renown scholars and historians (See the books in google link I provided). [[User:Tuscumbia|<font color="#0000FF"><strong>Tuscumbia</strong></font>]] ([[User talk:Tuscumbia|<font color="#DC143C">''talk''</font>]]) 23:38, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
:::It is more complex than showing a word in a book . The whole picture of the situation is available in previous talk that the result was to [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2007_December_31#Category:Azerbaijani_khanates <big>'''avoid such combination'''</big>]. My personal opinion is that using the word Azerbaijani in ethnic sense is correct , but deleting a sourced material pointing to the Persian political connection is not correct . Again , what is the problem of the Britannica and Iranica sentences ? Why can't we use the exact word of that reliable sources , alongside the explanation that the term "Azerbaijani Khanate" has an ethnic meaning , and not political burden . From geographical-historical point of view , the north of Aras river was not called Azerbaijan before 1918 , and the nation-state of Azerbaijan has not been established in 18th and 19th century ; so insisting in using the ambiguous term is kind of misinforming the reader .--[[User:Alborz Fallah|Alborz Fallah]] ([[User talk:Alborz Fallah|talk]]) 17:40, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
::::That, my friend, is incorrect information. The area ''was'' called Azerbaijan and the information can be found in numerous accounts of travellers before the 20th century. What happened in 1918 is that the name [[Azerbaijan Democratic Republic]] was given to an independent state. That's probably why historians do refer to the khanates as ''Azerbaijani''. When you say "reliable sources", why do you choose to dismiss these sources: [http://books.google.com/books?id=-Cj9Xiu3OyUC&pg=PA119&dq=Azerbaijani+khanate&hl=en#v=onepage&q=Azerbaijani%20khanate&f=false], (pp. 117-119); [http://books.google.com/books?id=RBNDaEFGJrsC&pg=PA150&dq=Azerbaijani+khanate&hl=en#v=onepage&q=Azerbaijani%20khanate&f=false] (pp. 12, 13, 150 - ''Note: On page 25, read about division of "Azerbaijan into two parts"''); [http://books.google.com/books?id=cozSOSsv7ZsC&pg=PA4&dq=Azerbaijani+khanate&hl=en#v=onepage&q=Azerbaijani%20khanate&f=false] (pp. 2-4, 5 - ''Note: read the exact wording you were looking for''); [http://books.google.com/books?id=yjIZ6ymyNO8C&pg=PA4&dq=Azerbaijani+khanate&hl=en#v=onepage&q=Azerbaijani%20khanate&f=false] (p. XI - ''Note: You can read the chronology of states on territory of Azerbaijan (yes, the area was called Azerbaijan)'', p. 32 (''Note: See how Iranian Azerbaijan is explicitly distinguished from Northern Azerbaijan''), p. 4); [http://books.google.com/books?id=WFjPAxhBEaEC&pg=PA110&dq=Azerbaijani+khanate&hl=en#v=onepage&q=Azerbaijani%20khanate&f=false] (p. 110); [http://books.google.com/books?id=pjDLcdzEju4C&pg=PA4&dq=Azerbaijani+khanate&hl=en#v=onepage&q=Azerbaijani%20khanate&f=false] (p. 5 - ''Note: it even states they were under Iranian and Russian suzerainty, not just Iranian''); [http://books.google.com/books?id=sgW_HEcULMYC&pg=PA159&dq=Azerbaijani+khanate&hl=en#v=onepage&q=Azerbaijani%20khanate&f=false] (p. 159); [http://books.google.com/books?id=qkKOpAYG7zMC&pg=PA144&dq=Azerbaijani+khanate&hl=en#v=onepage&q=Azerbaijani%20khanate&f=false] (pp. 143-144); [http://books.google.com/books?id=f1qUHMl3JfgC&pg=PA47&dq=Azerbaijani+khanate&hl=en#v=onepage&q=Azerbaijani%20khanate&f=false] (p. 47); [http://books.google.com/books?id=t5HKjm6vs3YC&pg=PA189&dq=Azerbaijani+khanate&hl=en#v=onepage&q=Azerbaijani%20khanate&f=false] (p. 190); [http://books.google.com/books?id=58WKAAAAMAAJ&q=Azerbaijani+khanate&dq=Azerbaijani+khanate&hl=en] (p. 222); [http://books.google.com/books?id=u8dVAAAAYAAJ&q=Azerbaijani+khanate&dq=Azerbaijani+khanate&hl=en] (p. 82); [http://books.google.com/books?id=sNoP1zphWf8C&pg=PA24&dq=Azerbaijani+khanate&hl=en#v=onepage&q=Azerbaijani%20khanate&f=false] (pp. 24, 92). There are a lot more sources, stating the same. [[User:Tuscumbia|<font color="#0000FF"><strong>Tuscumbia</strong></font>]] ([[User talk:Tuscumbia|<font color="#DC143C">''talk''</font>]]) 18:29, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
:::::That debate is an old , extended one : [[Name_of_Azerbaijan/workpage|Please read the bulk of evidences ]]. It does not have a clear cut answer that can be Googled out of books ! But anyway , I think previous results of Wikipedia talk pages about this topic is of use .--[[User:Alborz Fallah|Alborz Fallah]] ([[User talk:Alborz Fallah|talk]]) 19:27, 4 January 2012 (UTC)


== Ref bombs ==
* '''Comment''' (uninvolved editor). I'm in general agreement with Noleander's suggestion, which envisions that we will provide the reader with the available information but that we will not try to reach our own decision about whether "Azerbaijani" or "Iranian" is the best description. I don't know if the dispute requires a footnote. I think it might be handled with simple, concise text that accurately notes any disagreement among reliable sources, with separate footnotes quoting them. Would this be correct: "Several Muslim khanates, variously described as Azerbaijani<ref>{{cite book |title=Historical dictionary of Azerbaijan |last1=Świętochowski |first1=Tadeusz |last2= Collins |first2=Brian C. |authorlink= |coauthors= |year=1999 |publisher= Scarecrow Press |location= |isbn= 0-810-83550-9 |page=4 |pages= |url=http://books.google.com/books?id=yjIZ6ymyNO8C&pg=PA4&dq=Swietochowski+Azerbaijani+khanates&hl=en#v=onepage&q&f=false |accessdate= 2011-11-23}}</ref><ref>{{cite book |title=In a collapsing empire: underdevelopment, ethnic conflicts and nationalisms in the Soviet Union, Volume 28 |last1=Buttino |first1=Marco |last2= Świętochowski |first2=Tadeusz |authorlink= |coauthors= |year=1993 |publisher=Feltrinelli Editore |location= |isbn= 8-807-99048-2 |page=189 |pages= |url=http://books.google.com/books?id=t5HKjm6vs3YC&pg=PA189&dq=Swietochowski+Azerbaijani+khanates&hl=en#v=onepage&q&f=false |accessdate= 2011-11-23}}</ref> or as Iranian<ref name=AZERBAIJANIranica>{{cite encyclopedia |last=Multiple Authors |first= | title= AZERBAIJAN | encyclopedia=Encyclopædia Iranica |quote=This new entity consisted of the former Iranian Khanates of Arrān, including Karabagh, Baku, Shirvan, Ganja, Talysh (Ṭāleš), Derbent (Darband), Kuba, and Nakhichevan (Naḵjavān), which had been annexed to Russia by the treaties of Golestān (1813) and Torkamānčāy (1828) under the rubric of Eastern Transcaucasia.| accessdate=2011-October-09|url=http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/azerbaijan-index}}</ref> <ref>[http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-129462/Azerbaijan Encyclopaedia Britannica Online: History of Azerbaijan]</ref>, that were sometimes ...." (The first two footnotes are to the Świętochowski and Buttino books; the second two are to the Iranica and the Britannica.) [[User:JamesMLane|JamesMLane]]<small>&nbsp;[[User_talk:JamesMLane|t]]&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/JamesMLane|c]]</small> 14:52, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
::Thank you.I think if Tuscumbia (other party) agrees , we can change the sentence as JamesMLane suggests .--[[User:Alborz Fallah|Alborz Fallah]] ([[User talk:Alborz Fallah|talk]]) 18:35, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
:::OK, we can do that. Alborz, could you please write a draft footnote so that we discuss it here first before add it to the article? [[User:Tuscumbia|<font color="#0000FF"><strong>Tuscumbia</strong></font>]] ([[User talk:Tuscumbia|<font color="#DC143C">''talk''</font>]]) 15:03, 16 January 2012 (UTC)


I've been working on [[History of Azerbaijan#Prehistory]]. There are four ref bombs in the section, some of this should be moved to the Further reading section. I have enclosed the three instances in notes; this is not a good long term solution due to ref chasing. Does anyone have thoughts on these four instances, and what should be moved to further reading. Since if I go forward I'll be moving refs I wanted to post a discussion first. <span style="font-family:Courier;"><b>&nbsp;//&nbsp;[[User:TimothyBlue|Timothy]]&nbsp;::&nbsp;[[User talk:TimothyBlue|talk]]&nbsp;</b></span> 19:38, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
==File:Abulfaz Elcibey.jpg Nominated for speedy Deletion==
{|
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| An image used in this article, [[commons:File:Abulfaz Elcibey.jpg|File:Abulfaz Elcibey.jpg]], has been nominated for speedy deletion at [[Wikimedia Commons]] for the following reason: ''Copyright violations''
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''Don't panic''; deletions can take a little longer at Commons than they do on Wikipedia. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion (although please review Commons guidelines before doing so). The best way to contest this form of deletion is by posting on the image talk page.
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== Semi-protected edit request on 10 March 2023 ==
''This notification is provided by a Bot'' --[[User:CommonsNotificationBot|CommonsNotificationBot]] ([[User talk:CommonsNotificationBot|talk]]) 20:45, 30 December 2011 (UTC)
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{{Edit semi-protected|History of Azerbaijan|answered=yes}}
== Proposed Draft of the section ''Khanates of late 18th – early 19th centuries'' ==
Need source for “Akhsitan I (who built Baku)” [[Special:Contributions/2603:8000:E801:6300:B8D9:3C2C:FBD8:443E|2603:8000:E801:6300:B8D9:3C2C:FBD8:443E]] ([[User talk:2603:8000:E801:6300:B8D9:3C2C:FBD8:443E|talk]]) 10:38, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
:{{done}}<!-- Template:ESp --> [[User:M.Bitton|M.Bitton]] ([[User talk:M.Bitton|talk]]) 13:58, 10 March 2023 (UTC)


== Aq Qoyunlu Qara Qoyunly ==
After Nadir Shah's assassination in 1747, the Persian Empire under Afsharids disintegrated. Several [[Muslim]] khanates, variously described as Azerbaijani<ref>{{cite book |title=Historical dictionary of Azerbaijan |last1=Świętochowski |first1=Tadeusz |last2= Collins |first2=Brian C. |authorlink= |coauthors= |year=1999 |publisher= Scarecrow Press |location= |isbn= 0-810-83550-9 |page=4 |pages= |url=http://books.google.com/books?id=yjIZ6ymyNO8C&pg=PA4&dq=Swietochowski+Azerbaijani+khanates&hl=en#v=onepage&q&f=false |accessdate= 2011-11-23}}</ref><ref>{{cite book |title=In a collapsing empire: underdevelopment, ethnic conflicts and nationalisms in the Soviet Union, Volume 28 |last1=Buttino |first1=Marco |last2= Świętochowski |first2=Tadeusz |authorlink= |coauthors= |year=1993 |publisher=Feltrinelli Editore |location= |isbn= 8-807-99048-2 |page=189 |pages= |url=http://books.google.com/books?id=t5HKjm6vs3YC&pg=PA189&dq=Swietochowski+Azerbaijani+khanates&hl=en#v=onepage&q&f=false |accessdate= 2011-11-23}}</ref> or as Iranian<ref name=AZERBAIJANIranica>{{cite encyclopedia |last=Multiple Authors |first= | title= AZERBAIJAN | encyclopedia=Encyclopædia Iranica |quote=This new entity consisted of the former Iranian Khanates of Arrān, including Karabagh, Baku, Shirvan, Ganja, Talysh (Ṭāleš), Derbent (Darband), Kuba, and Nakhichevan (Naḵjavān), which had been annexed to Russia by the treaties of Golestān (1813) and Torkamānčāy (1828) under the rubric of Eastern Transcaucasia.| accessdate=2011-October-09|url=http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/azerbaijan-index}}</ref><ref>[http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-129462/Azerbaijan Encyclopaedia Britannica Online: History of Azerbaijan]</ref>, that were sometimes [[de facto]] independent<ref>{{cite book |last=Avery |first=Peter |authorlink= |coauthors=Hambly, Gavin |editor= |others= |title=The Cambridge History of Iran |origdate= |origyear= |origmonth= |url= |format= |accessdate= |edition= |series= |date= |year=1991 |month= |publisher=Cambridge University Press |location= |language= |isbn=0521200954 |oclc= |doi= |id= |chapter= |chapterurl= |quote=Agha Muhammad Khan could now turn to the restoration of the outlying provinces of the Safavid kingdom. Returning to Tehran in the spring of 1795, he assembled a force of some 60,000 cavalry and infantry and in Shawwal Dhul-Qa'da/May, set off for Azarbaijan, intending to conquer the country between the rivers Aras and Kura, formerly under Safavid control.This region comprised a number of independent khanates of which the most important was ''Qarabagh'', with its capital at Shusha; Ganja, with its capital of the same name; Shirvan across the Kura, with its capital at Shamakhi; and to the north-west, on both banks of the Kura, Christian Georgia (Gurjistan), with its capital at Tiflis.|page=126}}</ref><ref>{{cite book |last=Baddeley |first=John Frederick |authorlink= |coauthors= |editor= |others= |title=The Russian Conquest of the Caucasus |origdate= |origyear= |origmonth= |url= |format= |accessdate= |edition= |series= |date= |year=1908 |month= |publisher=Longmans, Green and Co. |location=Harvard University |language= |isbn= |oclc= |doi= |id= |chapter= |chapterurl= |quote=Potto sums up Tsitsianoff's achievements and character as follows: "In the short time he passed there (in Transcaucasia) he managed to completely alter the map of the country. He found it composed of minutely divided, independent Muhammadan States leaning upon Persia, namely, the khanates of Baku, Shirvan, Shekeen, Karabagh, Gandja and Erivan (Revan till 1828)..."|page=71}}</ref><ref name="bertsch297">{{cite book
| last = Bertsch
| first =Gary Kenneth
| title =Crossroads and Conflict: Security and Foreign Policy in the Caucasus and Central Asia
| publisher =Routledge
|year=2000
| location =
| pages =297: "Shusha became the capital of an independent "Azeri" khanate in 1752 (Azeri in the sense of Muslims who spoke a version of the Turkic language we call Azeri today)."
| isbn =0415922739}}</ref><ref name="svante">{{cite book
| last = Cornell
| first = Svante
| title = Small Nations and Great Powers: A Study of Ethnopolitical Conflict in the Caucasus
| publisher =Routledge
|year=2001
| location =
| isbn =0700711627
| page = }}</ref> founded under nominal [[Persian Empire|Persian]] suzerainty.<ref name="bertsch297" /><ref>[http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-129462/Azerbaijan "Azerbaijan"] ''Encyclopædia Britannica'' Online</ref><ref>{{cite book
| last = Nafziger, E. Wayne, Stewart, Frances and Väyrynen, Raimo
| first =
| title = War, Hunger, and Displacement: The Origins of Humanitarian Emergencies
| publisher = Oxford University press
|year=2000
| location =
| isbn = 0198297394
| page = 406}}</ref><ref>{{cite journal |last=Kashani-Sabet |first=Firoozeh |authorlink= |coauthors= |year=1997 |month=May |title=Fragile Frontiers: The Diminishing Domains of Qajar Iran |journal=International Journal of Middle East Studies |volume=29 |issue=2 |pages=210 |id= |url= |accessdate= |quote=In 1795, Ibrahim Khalil Khan, the wali of Qarabagh, warned Sultan Selim III of Aqa Muhammad Khan's ambitions. Fearing for his independence, he informed the Sultan of Aqa Muhammad Khan's ability to subdue Azerbaijan and later Qarabagh, Erivan, and Georgia.}}</ref> Within Azerbaijan emerged the khanates of [[Shirvan Khanate|Shirvan]], [[Baku khanate|Baku]], [[Karabakh khanate|Karabakh]], [[Ganja khanate|Ganja]], [[Quba Khanate|Quba]], [[Shaki Khanate|Shaki]], [[Talysh Khanate|Talysh]], [[Erivan khanate|Erivan]], [[Nakhchivan khanate|Nakhchivan]] and other small city-states. The khanates engaged in constant warfare between themselves and with external threats. The most powerful among the northern khans was Fat'h Ali Khan of Quba (died 1783), who managed to unite most of the neighboring khanates under his rule and even mounted an expedition to take [[Tabriz]], fighting with [[Zand dynasty]]. Another powerful khanate was that of [[Karabakh]], which subdued neighboring [[Nakhchivan khanate]] and parts of [[Erivan khanate]].
===Footnotes===
{{Reflist}}


In the early Middle Ages, white sheep were spread over a wide area in the South Caucasus, in the area between the Caucasus Mountains and the Araz River, around Goycha Lake, in the Alagoz grasslands, as well as in the southern regions of Azerbaijan, Eastern Anatolia, Western Iran, the Tigris and Euphrates valleys.
--[[User:Alborz Fallah|Alborz Fallah]] ([[User talk:Alborz Fallah|talk]]) 12:15, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
:Alborz, agreed in general, but I would like to reword it as follows (grammar, etc):
:After Nadir Shah's assassination in 1747, the Persian Empire under Afsharids disintegrated. Several Muslim khanates, described as Azerbaijani, according to some sources [5][6], and as Iranian[3][7], according to other, that were sometimes de facto independent[8][9][10][11] or under nominal Persian suzerainty.[10][12][13][14] Khanates of Shirvan, Baku, Karabakh, Ganja, Quba, Shaki, Talysh, Erivan, Nakhchivan and other small city-states emerged within Azerbaijan north of Araks River. The khanates engaged in constant warfare between themselves and with external threats. The most powerful among the northern khans was Fat'h Ali Khan of Quba (died 1783), who managed to unite most of the neighboring khanates under his rule and even mounted an expedition to take Tabriz, fighting with Zand dynasty. Another powerful khanate was that of Karabakh, which subdued neighboring Nakhchivan khanate and parts of Erivan khanate. [[User:Tuscumbia|<font color="#0000FF"><strong>Tuscumbia</strong></font>]] ([[User talk:Tuscumbia|<font color="#DC143C">''talk''</font>]]) 16:42, 30 January 2012 (UTC)


The Aggoyun people belonged to the Bayandur clan of the Oguz. Their names are given as "Bayandur Khan boys" in Turkic-language sources, and "Bayanduriyya" in Persian-language sources The word "Bayandur" in the ancient Turkish language means "a place that is always full of blessings". The name Bayandur comes from Bayandur, the eldest son of Goy Khan, one of the sons of Oghuz Khan. Aggoyunuls considered themselves descendants of Bayandur Khan.
I think we reach a good point because our main discussion is about the grammar . Because the large sentences are not clear , I write two suggestions as follows :
1- Several Muslim khanates, <font color="red">variously</font> described as Azerbaijani <font color="red">or as Iranian</font>, that were sometimes de facto independent founded under nominal Persian suzerainty.(Alborz's suggestion)


At the time of Hamza Bey, the Bayandur stamp was stamped on Aggoyunlu coins. During the period of Uzun Hasan and his successors, the Bayandur stamp was again printed on coins as a sign of the state. This stamp was also used on the Aggoyunlu flag and inscriptions.Beginning with Hasan, the Aggoyunlu rulers were masters of science and art.
2-Several Muslim khanates, described as Azerbaijani, according to some sources , and as Iranian, <font color="blue">according to other</font>, that were sometimes de facto independent <font color="blue">or</font> under nominal Persian suzerainty.(Tuscumbia's suggestion)
Uzun Hasan gathered the most advanced scholars of his time in his palace. Up to 60 scholars worked in the ruler's private library.
calligraphy (calligraphy) and miniature painting were among the attention-grabbing areas of Azerbaijani cultural life of this period. In the palace libraries of Aggoyunlu rulers, scientific, artistic, philosophical, religious, and historical works were copied, and miniatures were drawn on their manuscripts. 4 miniature illustrations drawn on the manuscript of poet Hidayat's "Divan" were compiled by Sultan Khalil in 1478. This manuscript copy is in AZERBAİJAN language.
During this period, skilled calligraphers such as Mirali Tabrizi, Mirabullah Tabrizi, Suleyman Ali Yaqubi, Nizamuddin Ali Ardabili, Jafar Tabrizi, Azhar Tabrizi, Abdurrahim al-Yaqubi worked in different cities of Azerbaijan.[294]
For a long time, a scientific assembly consisting of prominent scientists of the time was active in Hasan's palace. Uzun Hasan translated the Holy Quran into AZERBAİJAN language and wrote an Oghuznam called "Kitabi-Diyarbakriya" to Abu Bakr al-Tehrani, a prominent scientist of the time. Fazlullah ibn Ruzbehan Khunji came to Tabriz in 1487 in Sultan Yaqub's palace and started writing the history of Aggoyunlu state.Bayram Khoja was the founder of Karakoyunlu dynasty. His successor, Kara Muhammad, became a relative of Jalairi Sultan Ahmad in order to resolve the conflict with the Jalairis. This caused the western part of Azerbaijan, including Tabriz, to fall into the hands of the Karagoyun people.


the transformation of Karakoyunli into a big empire happened during the era of Kara Yusif. In an intense struggle with the Timurids and Jalairis, Kara Yusuf managed to create a huge state from Azerbaijan that united Eastern Georgia, Arab Iraq and Ajam Iraq within its borders.
Now I think the other editors can help as , as they are native English speakers and they are neutral . If you agree , I can ask the other editors to give a comment in choosing one the above sentences , or a third one that they see better than them .--[[User:Alborz Fallah|Alborz Fallah]] ([[User talk:Alborz Fallah|talk]]) 12:01, 5 February 2012 (UTC)


Black Yusif's son Gara Iskander restored the power of Garagoyunlu in 1421 and entered the city after Sultan Shahrukh left Tabriz. In 1421, the battle between Alexander and Shahrukh's troops in the Alashkert valley resulted in Alexander's defeat, but since Shahrukh returnedthen all the lands he occupied were recaptured by Alexander the Black.
:Does the use of "founded" mean that these khanates were founded in 1747? Or did they exist before 1747 but achieve de facto independence in that year? Both versions are unclear on this. In addition, Version #2 has a problem -- a fine point of English that I think even many native English speakers would miss. To say both "described" and "according to" includes the same concept twice. Also, "other" should be "others". So I suggest a rewrite along these lines:
::3A- Several Muslim khanates, described as Azerbaijani by some sources and as Iranian by others, were founded under nominal Persian suzerainty but were de facto independent.


Jahan Shah came to power after Black Alexander. Jahan Shah was one of the strong rulers of Karagoyunlu. During his time, Karagoyunlu culture developed. Jahan Shah wrote poems in AZERBAİJAN language and Persian under the pseudonym "Haqiqi". made great conquests and expanded the territory of the Garagoyunlu empire.according to the German Turkologist Gerhard Doerfer, it is very strange that the word "Turkman" still causes confusion for Aggoyunlu and Karagoyunlu Turkmens. The word Turkman actually means "nomadic Oghuz"Aggoyunlu and Karagoyunlu "Turkmen" are AZERBAİJANİS anyway.
::3B- Several Muslim khanates, described as Azerbaijani by some sources and as Iranian by others, became de facto independent while remaining under nominal Persian suzerainty.
:The choice between these two would depend on what the status of the khanates was before 1747. [[User:JamesMLane|JamesMLane]]<small>&nbsp;[[User_talk:JamesMLane|t]]&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/JamesMLane|c]]</small> 14:53, 10 February 2012 (UTC)


:::I think it is clear that all of the khanates were built before 1747 . It is clear by searching their article one by one . --[[User:Alborz Fallah|Alborz Fallah]] ([[User talk:Alborz Fallah|talk]]) 07:32, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
After Jahanshah's death in 1467, Hasanali Mirza, who came to power, was killed by Uzun Hasan, thus the Garagoyunlu empire collapsed. [[Special:Contributions/5.191.25.12|5.191.25.12]] ([[User talk:5.191.25.12|talk]]) 13:43, 23 June 2023 (UTC)
::::I agree with Alborz. The khanates existed before 1747, but were under Iranian control until that year. After the death of Nadir Shah the central power in Iran weakened, and the khanates became de-facto independent. [[User:Grandmaster|<span style="font-family:Arial;color:#464646">'''''Grand'''''</span>]][[User talk:Grandmaster|<span style="font-family:Arial;color:#808080">'''''master'''''</span>]] 21:58, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
:::::Hi Grandmaster ! Long time , no see .... To be precise ,only the Qarabagh Khanate was built after Nader Shah (1747) , but still it had a period of relative dependency (read semi-control by central Iranian government) in the period of [[Karim Khan]] (1760-1779)--[[User:Alborz Fallah|Alborz Fallah]] ([[User talk:Alborz Fallah|talk]]) 08:33, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
::::::Hi Alborz. You are absolutely correct on this, the Karabakh khanate indeed was the one that emerged after the death of Nadir shah, but others existed before. [[User:Grandmaster|<span style="font-family:Arial;color:#464646">'''''Grand'''''</span>]][[User talk:Grandmaster|<span style="font-family:Arial;color:#808080">'''''master'''''</span>]] 09:31, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 09:54, 8 January 2024

First sentence

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@CuriousGolden: I don't agree with the way the first sentence of the lede is written. This article is meant to elaborate about the History of the Azerbaijan Republic, discussing everything that happened in relation to its soil, from prehistory to contemporary times. This concept doesn't equal to the history of ethnic Azerbaijanis. We are both well aware that the entire article needs to rewritten (I might do it myself at some point in the future), but the first sentence of the lede is just too misleading for it to remain as it is. - LouisAragon (talk) 12:30, 20 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It's similar to the lead in History of Armenia. The sentence you added here doesn't sound very nice in my opinion (it's quite short), but if you can improve it, then we can definitely change it. (Perhaps it could be made similar to how it is on History of Turkey?) — CuriousGolden (T·C) 14:30, 20 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Ref bombs

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I've been working on History of Azerbaijan#Prehistory. There are four ref bombs in the section, some of this should be moved to the Further reading section. I have enclosed the three instances in notes; this is not a good long term solution due to ref chasing. Does anyone have thoughts on these four instances, and what should be moved to further reading. Since if I go forward I'll be moving refs I wanted to post a discussion first.  // Timothy :: talk  19:38, 11 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 10 March 2023

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Need source for “Akhsitan I (who built Baku)” 2603:8000:E801:6300:B8D9:3C2C:FBD8:443E (talk) 10:38, 10 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

 Done M.Bitton (talk) 13:58, 10 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Aq Qoyunlu Qara Qoyunly

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In the early Middle Ages, white sheep were spread over a wide area in the South Caucasus, in the area between the Caucasus Mountains and the Araz River, around Goycha Lake, in the Alagoz grasslands, as well as in the southern regions of Azerbaijan, Eastern Anatolia, Western Iran, the Tigris and Euphrates valleys.

The Aggoyun people belonged to the Bayandur clan of the Oguz. Their names are given as "Bayandur Khan boys" in Turkic-language sources, and "Bayanduriyya" in Persian-language sources The word "Bayandur" in the ancient Turkish language means "a place that is always full of blessings". The name Bayandur comes from Bayandur, the eldest son of Goy Khan, one of the sons of Oghuz Khan. Aggoyunuls considered themselves descendants of Bayandur Khan.

At the time of Hamza Bey, the Bayandur stamp was stamped on Aggoyunlu coins. During the period of Uzun Hasan and his successors, the Bayandur stamp was again printed on coins as a sign of the state. This stamp was also used on the Aggoyunlu flag and inscriptions.Beginning with Hasan, the Aggoyunlu rulers were masters of science and art. Uzun Hasan gathered the most advanced scholars of his time in his palace. Up to 60 scholars worked in the ruler's private library. calligraphy (calligraphy) and miniature painting were among the attention-grabbing areas of Azerbaijani cultural life of this period. In the palace libraries of Aggoyunlu rulers, scientific, artistic, philosophical, religious, and historical works were copied, and miniatures were drawn on their manuscripts. 4 miniature illustrations drawn on the manuscript of poet Hidayat's "Divan" were compiled by Sultan Khalil in 1478. This manuscript copy is in AZERBAİJAN language. During this period, skilled calligraphers such as Mirali Tabrizi, Mirabullah Tabrizi, Suleyman Ali Yaqubi, Nizamuddin Ali Ardabili, Jafar Tabrizi, Azhar Tabrizi, Abdurrahim al-Yaqubi worked in different cities of Azerbaijan.[294] For a long time, a scientific assembly consisting of prominent scientists of the time was active in Hasan's palace. Uzun Hasan translated the Holy Quran into AZERBAİJAN language and wrote an Oghuznam called "Kitabi-Diyarbakriya" to Abu Bakr al-Tehrani, a prominent scientist of the time. Fazlullah ibn Ruzbehan Khunji came to Tabriz in 1487 in Sultan Yaqub's palace and started writing the history of Aggoyunlu state.Bayram Khoja was the founder of Karakoyunlu dynasty. His successor, Kara Muhammad, became a relative of Jalairi Sultan Ahmad in order to resolve the conflict with the Jalairis. This caused the western part of Azerbaijan, including Tabriz, to fall into the hands of the Karagoyun people.

the transformation of Karakoyunli into a big empire happened during the era of Kara Yusif. In an intense struggle with the Timurids and Jalairis, Kara Yusuf managed to create a huge state from Azerbaijan that united Eastern Georgia, Arab Iraq and Ajam Iraq within its borders.

Black Yusif's son Gara Iskander restored the power of Garagoyunlu in 1421 and entered the city after Sultan Shahrukh left Tabriz. In 1421, the battle between Alexander and Shahrukh's troops in the Alashkert valley resulted in Alexander's defeat, but since Shahrukh returnedthen all the lands he occupied were recaptured by Alexander the Black.

Jahan Shah came to power after Black Alexander. Jahan Shah was one of the strong rulers of Karagoyunlu. During his time, Karagoyunlu culture developed. Jahan Shah wrote poems in AZERBAİJAN language and Persian under the pseudonym "Haqiqi". made great conquests and expanded the territory of the Garagoyunlu empire.according to the German Turkologist Gerhard Doerfer, it is very strange that the word "Turkman" still causes confusion for Aggoyunlu and Karagoyunlu Turkmens. The word Turkman actually means "nomadic Oghuz"Aggoyunlu and Karagoyunlu "Turkmen" are AZERBAİJANİS anyway.

After Jahanshah's death in 1467, Hasanali Mirza, who came to power, was killed by Uzun Hasan, thus the Garagoyunlu empire collapsed. 5.191.25.12 (talk) 13:43, 23 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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