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== Ego death ==
{{archive box|
It is something you experience. Not something passed on as some kind of cultural artefact or learned idea. You cant read about it and gain insight. You can't explain it to someone who hasn't experienced it.....and yet - if you really have experienced it - you know that deep down..... everyone else understands it too because we are all the same creature, and separate identities are an illusion. Words are turds <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/185.69.145.239|185.69.145.239]] ([[User talk:185.69.145.239#top|talk]]) 00:14, 16 May 2020 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
* [[Talk:Ego death/Archive 1|Archive 1]] }}


== Lead ==
== Regarding Link Removal ==


Hi, I have removed all of the links due to guideline violation, and another editor reverted and requested an explanation on Talk. So I am here to provide an explanation of the reasoning for removing each of the links. The guidelines that I am referring to can be found here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:External_links#Links_normally_to_be_avoided
A [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Ego_death&diff=631162565&oldid=631152820 series of edits] by IP 92.236.35.88 changed the lead considerably:
* Accurate info ("first phase in an [[LSD]]-trip", links, notes, references) was replaced by inaccurate info ("experience of mentally dying in an [[LSD]]-trip")
* Interpretation of a primary source was added, without proper references
The lead is supposed to summarize the article, not to develop an argument, nor to give interpretations of primary sources. I've re-inserted the previous lead, which is absed on the source, and moved the interpretation into the article; this interpretation will be judged next. [[User:Joshua Jonathan|<font size="2"><span style="font-family:Forte;color:black">Joshua Jonathan</span></font>]] -[[User talk:Joshua Jonathan|<font size="3"><span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva;color:black">Let's talk!</span></font>]] 12:58, 26 October 2014 (UTC)


The links about psychedelics, spirituality, self-help and depersonalization contain a lot of factually inaccurate material or unverifiable research.
Sorry im a newb to wiki editing, but an expert in psychedelia. The problem with the ego death article as it appears now is that it is meaningless jibberish, it uses strained and artificial constructs in a very specific way with no explanation of how they are being used or what they are being used to mean. For example what is a casual reader supposed to understand from the opening sentence:
"first phase in an LSD-trip, in which a "complete transcendence" of the self and game appears"?


The self-awakening forum serves as a form of advertising and promotion of a website.
What do the terms 'first phase', 'complete transcendence of the self' and 'game' mean in this context, specifically and concretely? I think these terms would mean very little to almost anyone who would read that sentence, unless you were closely familiar with Leary's overall psychological model. So the opening sentence is redundant, it makes no sense, and the rest of the article in similarly redundant in that it does not offer a real, concrete explanation of what 'ego death' actually is. However this lack of a definition is obscured by the use of nebulous concepts like "the first phase of an LSD trip" and ""stripping away" of ego-defenses" which are left undefined, up to the reader to decide whatever they might mean. If a person wanted to understand the meaning of the term 'ego death', they would be none the wiser after reading this current article.


The fashion link is a form of advertising and requires registration to access the content.
Ego death is very poorly defined in the published literature, it is impossible to find a clear concise and meaningful definition of what it means, despite the fact that it is a well-known experience among psychedelic trippers.


Please let me know if you have any disagreements or confusions, I would be more than happy to clarify.--[[Special:Contributions/198.71.112.21|198.71.112.21]] ([[User talk:198.71.112.21|talk]]) 01:36, 26 October 2018 (UTC)
Different writers use the term 'ego death' in very different ways, for example look at Georg Feuerstein's book 'Holy Madness' for the pop-spiritualist understanding of ego death which is very different to the psychedelicist understanding per Leary and Grof. Perhaps for this reason this whole article ought to be deleted, because in the world of published literature the term 'ego death' has no real meaning. To get a feel for what 'ego death' really means, you need to read people's personal reports of their psychedelic experiences, trippers quite commonly report profound experiences of mystical death and rebirth in the psychedelic state of consciousness.


:Thanks; could you also copy-paste the specific links? [[User:Joshua Jonathan|<span style="font-family:Forte;color:black">Joshua Jonathan</span>]] -[[User talk:Joshua Jonathan|<span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva;color:black">Let's talk!</span>]] 02:53, 26 October 2018 (UTC)
To successfully explain what ego death is all about, the article ought to give an answer to the question: "what is it like to experience ego death, specifically and concretely?". The specific and concrete answer is something like: "experiencing ego death is like dying, but a mental death as opposed to a physical death". The current article offers no real indication of what it is like to subjectively experience psychedelic ego death, the kind that Leary and Grof (and several other psychedelic writers who have talked about the experience of altered-state 'dying') were talking about.<span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/92.236.35.88|92.236.35.88]] ([[User talk:92.236.35.88|talk]]) 19:09, 26 October 2014 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->


{{reply to|Joshua Jonathan}} My apologies for the late response. I have quoted parts of my reply above and copy/pasted the links directly from the article below to each quoted part of my reply.
The opening sentence is a misquote, Leary does not equate ego death with "the first phase of an LSD trip". <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/92.236.35.88|92.236.35.88]] ([[User talk:92.236.35.88|talk]]) 07:23, 27 October 2014 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
{{quote box|align=left|The links about psychedelics, spirituality, self-help and depersonalization contain a lot of factually inaccurate material or unverifiable research.}}
{{clear}}
;Psychedelics
*1 - [http://www.erowid.org/ask/ask.php?ID=2758 The Effect of LSD on the Ego]
*2 - [http://www.psychonaut.com/general-psychonautics/27888-what-ego-death.html psychonaut.com, ''What is Ego-death ???''] alternate Wiki on [https://psychonautwiki.org/wiki/Psychonautics Psychonautics]
;Psychedelics and spirituality/religion
*3 - [http://www.egodeath.com Ego Death and Self-Control Cybernetics]
*4 - [http://secretdrugs.net/ secretdrugs.net]
;Spirituality
*5 - [http://deoxy.org/egofalse.htm Osho, ''"Ego - The False Center"'']
*6 - [http://glossary.ahalmaas.com/phrases/ego-death The Almaasery, ''"Ego Death"'']
*7 - [http://undividedjournal.com/2013/08/26/reconsidering-ego-death-and-the-false-self/ Dr. Sara Kendall Gordon (Pralaya) (2013), ''Reconsidering Ego Death and the False Self'', Undivided, The Online Journal of Nonduality and Psychology]
;Self-help
*8 - [https://web.archive.org/web/20080419232200/http://maryplaza.com/egodeath.html maryplaza.com, ''Signs, symptoms, and how to manage an ego-death'']
;Depersonalisation
*9 - [http://enlightenmentward.wordpress.com/2009/12/06/depersonalization-vs-enlightenment/ ''Depersonalisation versus Enlightenment''] talk by Shinzen Young, and first-hand narratives of experiences of DP/DR and "non-ego"
*10 - [http://ascensium.com/ego-death/ ''You Do NOt Exist: A Look Inside Ego Death'']
*11 - [http://nobodysnotes.com/post/46478668844/dpdr ''Depersonalization/Derealization Disorder or Zen/Emptiness Sickness - Part One'']


{{quote box|align=left|The self-awakening forum serves as a form of advertising and promotion of a website.}}
"Simply put, it is the loss of the sense of self as an individual (the ego)"
{{clear}}
This is also a misquote, Leary does not define ego death as "loss of the sense of self", and he does not equate ego death with "ego loss". [[Special:Contributions/92.236.35.88|92.236.35.88]] ([[User talk:92.236.35.88|talk]]) 08:25, 27 October 2014 (UTC)
;Self-awakening
*12 - [http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/index.php Liberation Unleashed - forum dedicated to ego death]


{{quote box|align=left|The fashion link is a form of advertising and requires registration to access the content.}}
:Wikipedia is based on [[WP:RS]], not on personal opinions, like "experiencing ego death is like dying, but a mental death as opposed to a physical death". The quotes in the lead are from "The Psychedelic Experience". If those are vague, you've got to blame Leary c.s. If the term is also being used by others, then write about it, but provide sources. But star reading [[WP:RS]]. Best regards, [[User:Joshua Jonathan|<font size="2"><span style="font-family:Forte;color:black">Joshua Jonathan</span></font>]] -[[User talk:Joshua Jonathan|<font size="3"><span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva;color:black">Let's talk!</span></font>]] 08:51, 27 October 2014 (UTC)
{{clear}}
;Fashion
*13 - [https://www.instagram.com/egodeathclothing/ Clothing brand based on the concept of ego death]


::The Leary quote from the lead was a misquote, Leary does not say that ego death is "the first phase of an LSd trip" [[Special:Contributions/92.236.35.88|92.236.35.88]] ([[User talk:92.236.35.88|talk]]) 14:51, 27 October 2014 (UTC)
--[[Special:Contributions/198.71.112.21|198.71.112.21]] ([[User talk:198.71.112.21|talk]]) 01:13, 20 November 2018 (UTC)


::The misquote from Leary was re-added to the article. - Leary does not equate ego death with "the first phase of an LSD trip'. [[Special:Contributions/92.236.35.88|92.236.35.88]] ([[User talk:92.236.35.88|talk]]) 15:56, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

:::It's not a quote, but a paraphrase; which you misquote:
::::''"The term was introduced by Timothy Leary to describe the first phase in an LSD-trip, in which a "complete transcendence" of the self and game appears."''
:::You've already crossed [[WP:3RR]]; you're only making it worse now. [[User:Joshua Jonathan|<font size="2"><span style="font-family:Forte;color:black">Joshua Jonathan</span></font>]] -[[User talk:Joshua Jonathan|<font size="3"><span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva;color:black">Let's talk!</span></font>]] 16:04, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

It started as just a paraphrase, now it has been added as a quote in the next section. You are repeatedly misquoting/mis-paraphrasing Leary, Leary was *not* defining what 'ego death' means in the passage you keep paraphrasing/quoting. You are taking Leary's words out of context and falsely claiming that they provide a definition of what "ego death" means, but in the actual quote from Leary he does not mention ego death, the full quote from p.5 begins as follows: "Following the Tibetan model then, we distinguish three phases of the psychedelic experience. The first period (Chikhai Bardo) is that of complete transcendence"....... He does not mention ego death anywhere in this part of the book, yet you are falsely claiming that the above quote is a defintion of ego death by putting it under the section 'ego death: definitions'. Why do you claim that this particular quote is a definition of ego death when there is no mention of ego death either in the quote or the surrounding pages?[[Special:Contributions/92.236.35.88|92.236.35.88]] ([[User talk:92.236.35.88|talk]]) 16:32, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

:p.14: "First Bardo: The Period of Ego−Loss or Non−Game Ecstasy". [[User:Joshua Jonathan|<font size="2"><span style="font-family:Forte;color:black">Joshua Jonathan</span></font>]] -[[User talk:Joshua Jonathan|<font size="3"><span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva;color:black">Let's talk!</span></font>]] 18:05, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

So there is no mention of "ego death", and no indication that 'ego loss' is exactly the same concept as 'ego death'. The quote/paraphrase from Leary about "complete transcendence" of the self and game" is referred to in the article as a definition of "ego death"; but it is no such thing, there are other quotes in 'the psychedelic experience' book that point to the ego death phenomenon much more directly and accurately, such as Leary's expression "death-rebirth experience" and "pre-mortem death experience". The quote that is singled out in the leader is highly inappropriate to put in a prominent position in the article as "Leary's definition of ego death", that is not what Leary intended with the quote about "transcendence of self and game". The quote is taken entirely out of context and the article then loses a valuable opportunity to give a direct and concise definition of ego death in Leary's own terms, and instead the article creates a misleading and vague impression about what Leary had in mind specifically by the term 'ego death'. The choice of quote about "transcendence of self and game" is arbitrary, unjustified and misleading, it should be removed and replaced with a more accurate and direct quote from the same book to sum up what 'ego death' is.[[Special:Contributions/92.236.35.88|92.236.35.88]] ([[User talk:92.236.35.88|talk]]) 18:39, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

:The article is about "ego death", isn't it? Not about "ego-death and rebirth". The description of ego death from ''The Psychedelic Experience'' is, well, "a direct and concise definition of ego death in Leary's own terms". It looks like you don't understand the terminologu, and are confusing different facets. [[User:Joshua Jonathan|<font size="2"><span style="font-family:Forte;color:black">Joshua Jonathan</span></font>]] -[[User talk:Joshua Jonathan|<font size="3"><span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva;color:black">Let's talk!</span></font>]] 19:57, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

The article is about ego death, but the purported "definition" by Leary that the article paraphrases in the leader is not about ego death, the quote/paraphrase about "transcendence of self and game" is not intended by Leary to give a definition of ego death, this is indicated by the fact that Leary does not say that he is defining ego death, he doesnt mention ego death in association with that particular quote. So the leader contains a false paraphrase which twists Leary's words out of context and gives a false (and actually meaningless) definition of what ego death is about. This is dishonest editing, taking a writer's words out of context.[[Special:Contributions/92.236.35.88|92.236.35.88]] ([[User talk:92.236.35.88|talk]]) 09:34, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

:Now I see your point: you wnat a subjective report of what ego death is:
::''"To get a feel for what 'ego death' really means, you need to read people's personal reports of their psychedelic experiences, trippers quite commonly report profound experiences of mystical death and rebirth in the psychedelic state of consciousness."''
:You may be right here, but who's determined here "quite commonly"? A [[WP:RS]]? Or did ''you'' do so? That's [[WP:OR]]. If there's no uniform definition of ego death to be found in the literature, as you wrote, then how are we going to determine which subjective experiences are "ego death"?
:I think you should try tp provide three kinds of reliable sources here:
:* definitions of ego death;
:* subjective descriotions of the experience of ego death;
:* reliable sources which conclude that those experiences are, indeed, "ego death".
:Consider also another possibility: "ego death" is a construct, which is used by some people to frame a broad range of experiences. See lso Merkur (2014).
:Best regards, [[User:Joshua Jonathan|<font size="2"><span style="font-family:Forte;color:black">Joshua Jonathan</span></font>]] -[[User talk:Joshua Jonathan|<font size="3"><span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva;color:black">Let's talk!</span></font>]] 13:37, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

you have not responded to my point. The leader contains a paraphrase (which is subsequently reproduced as a full quote) of Leary about "transcendence of self and game", which is offered as a definition of ego death. However that is twisting Learys words out of context,because in the original wording from Leary he makes no mention of ego death, and no suggestion that the idea of "transcendence of self and game" is a defintiion of ego death (or even connected to ego death).

Therefore the Leary paraphrase in the leader is entirely arbitrary and unjustified, it bears no relation to the subject matter of the article, and this robs the article of a valuable opportunity to properly define ego death in Leary's terms. The Leary paraphrase and subsequent full quote should be replaced with one where Leary is actually talking about ego death, as opposed to the current paraphrase which has nothing to do with ego death and gives a completely false impression about what ego death is. If the quote is reproduced in full (instead of dishonestly chopping off the beginning part where Leary sets the context of what follows, as the quote is currently reproduced) it becomes abundantly clear that Leary is not saying anything about ego death. Furthermore the part about "the first phase of an LSD trip" is entirely false, a blatant misquote as Leary says nothing about "the first phase of an LSD trip", that is a misunderstanding of what he is talking about.[[Special:Contributions/92.236.35.88|92.236.35.88]] ([[User talk:92.236.35.88|talk]]) 08:21, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

:This issue remains unresolved, the Leary quote/paraphrase about 'transcendence of self and game' which is offered in this article as a succinct definition of ego death, is in fact no such thing, Leary's words have been taken entirely out of context to give a misleading and inaccurate impression about his concept of 'ego death'. If you check the context of the "transcendence of self and game" quote from Leary's book, you can see that it is not intended as a reference to ego death.--[[Special:Contributions/92.236.35.88|92.236.35.88]] ([[User talk:92.236.35.88|talk]]) 08:35, 30 October 2014 (UTC)

::Leary c.s. use the term "ego-loss", which is equated by others with "ego death". Maybe you could try to give a constructive contribution, by:
::* Explaining what this quote ''is'' about?
::* Quote what you think is a definition from Leary of ego-death?
::[[User:Joshua Jonathan|<font size="2"><span style="font-family:Forte;color:black">Joshua Jonathan</span></font>]] -[[User talk:Joshua Jonathan|<font size="3"><span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva;color:black">Let's talk!</span></font>]] 13:29, 30 October 2014 (UTC)

:::Johnson, Richards & Griffiths (2008):
::::''"The individual may temporarily experience a complete loss of subjective self-identity, a phenomenon sometimes referred to as ‘ego loss’ or ‘ego death’ (e.g. Leary, et al., 1964; Grof and Halifax, 1977; Grof, 1980)."''
:::[[User:Joshua Jonathan|<font size="2"><span style="font-family:Forte;color:black">Joshua Jonathan</span></font>]] -[[User talk:Joshua Jonathan|<font size="3"><span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva;color:black">Let's talk!</span></font>]] 15:08, 30 October 2014 (UTC)

::::Leary does not ever use the term 'ego loss' synonymously with the term 'ego death', in fact he uses both terms in very different ways throughout the book, with no indication that he means they are the same thing. But this has already been pointed out earlier in this discussion and yet the false information remains protected in the article's leader. "Quote what you think is a definition from Leary of ego-death?" - I have already done this, several times, but it is repeatedly ignored and deleted from the article. False and misleading information is being carefully protected in this article, hopefully some of the people reading the article will check the quoted sources and see that they are being deliberately knowingly used out of context to give an entirely false and misleading impression about what Leary meant by the term 'ego death'.[[Special:Contributions/92.236.35.88|92.236.35.88]] ([[User talk:92.236.35.88|talk]]) 08:58, 31 October 2014 (UTC)
{{od}}
{{od}}
Thanks;
You mean this one:
*1 - usefull site with a lot of information on psychdelics
:''"... it is one of the oldest and most universal practices for the initiate to go through the experience of death before he can be spiritually reborn. Symbolically he must die to his past, and to his old ego, before he can take his place in the new spiritual life into which he has been initiated." (p.12)''
*2 - also usefull, I think, when you're interested in this kind of stuff (though we might add a link to a drugs abuse warning page too)
The quote ''is'' in the article. But it's not about ego death alone, it's about the ''sequence'' of (symbolic) death-and-rebirth. Nevertheless, I've added it to the definitions. [[User:Joshua Jonathan|<font size="2"><span style="font-family:Forte;color:black">Joshua Jonathan</span></font>]] -[[User talk:Joshua Jonathan|<font size="3"><span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva;color:black">Let's talk!</span></font>]] 09:51, 31 October 2014 (UTC)
*3 - agreed, far-out; removed
*4 - interesting, but spammy; removed
*5 - dead link?; removed
*6 - Almaas seems relevant; spiritual teacher with good credentials
*7 - dead link; removed
*8 - flimsy (incomplete archive?); removed
*9 - Shinzen Young is relevant; he's got usfull things to say about ego death and depersonalisation
*10 - dead link; removed
*11 - too bloggy; removed
*12 - cute!
*13 is odd indeed indeed; removed
Well, that's a lot, ehm, emptier yet, isn't it? [[User:Joshua Jonathan|<span style="font-family:Forte;color:black">Joshua Jonathan</span>]] -[[User talk:Joshua Jonathan|<span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva;color:black">Let's talk!</span>]] 04:51, 20 November 2018 (UTC)
::{{reply to|Joshua Jonathan}} Thank you, it looks much cleaner. Here are my updated criticisms of some of the remaining links. I am also referencing the guidelines linked in my initial post.


[https://www.diamondapproach.org/glossary/refinery_phrases/ego-death The Diamond Approach, ''"Ego Death"''] - Should be removed per #5 guideline(the site advertises services/products)
== "Bagatelized", I say! "Bagatelized"! ==


[http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/index.php Liberation Unleashed - forum dedicated to ego death] - Should be removed per #10 guideline (chat/discussion forum)
<blockquote><small>'''Dan Merkur notes that the use of LSD in combination with Leary's manual often did not lead to liberating insights, but to horryfying bad trips.{{sfn|Merkur|2014|p=222-223}} It also lead to fatal accidents, which were bagatelized by Alpert.{{sfn|Merkur|2014|p=224}}'''</small></blockquote>
{{reflist}}{{clear}}
Almost nobody knows what this word means. This is the ONLY Wikipedia article to use it. There is no online-dictionary definition for it. A Google search produces a very few other pages using the word, but again, no definition. (All false modesty aside, if I don't know an English word, it isn't in common use.) We shouldn't be using language that isn't in Wiktionary, and we definitely shouldn't be using words most people have never encountered in their lives!


[http://enlightenmentward.wordpress.com/2009/12/06/depersonalization-vs-enlightenment/ ''Depersonalisation versus Enlightenment''] -Should be removed per #11 guideline (it's a blog that's not written by a recognized authority. If Shizen Young is relevant, the blog is not written by him anyways.)
Furthermore, the sentence is poorly structured. Even with a more-familiar term in its place, there would still be a simpler and stronger way to say it. The passive voice is often a pretension, and rarely clear. "... which Alpert bagatelized" would be the way to go, if "bagatelized" was a word worth using (which it isn't). "The gun was carried by Frank" is never as good as "Frank carried the gun."


--[[Special:Contributions/198.71.112.21|198.71.112.21]] ([[User talk:198.71.112.21|talk]]) 05:16, 20 November 2018 (UTC)
Do feel free to let me know, if you know, what "bagatelized" means. I am certain there's an equally accurate way to say what needs to be said, without resorting to esoteric terms or [[neologism]]s.


== Nothing on Nirvana? ==
--[[User:Ben Culture|Ben Culture]] ([[User talk:Ben Culture|talk]]) 06:09, 30 October 2014 (UTC)
Isn't this related? --[[Special:Contributions/46.91.55.242|46.91.55.242]] ([[User talk:46.91.55.242|talk]]) 18:40, 24 August 2021 (UTC)


: – there is a section on Buddhism in the article, but the sources do not relate ego death to nirvana – if you can provide a reliable source ([[WP:RS]]) that equates ego death and nirvana it can be added to the article – cheers -[[User:Epinoia|Epinoia]] ([[User talk:Epinoia|talk]]) 19:05, 24 August 2021 (UTC)
:Hey Ben. It's an mistranslation by me, I'm afraid, of the Dutch "bagatelliseren". Which means "to trivialize", "to belittle". Thanks! [[User:Joshua Jonathan|<font size="2"><span style="font-family:Forte;color:black">Joshua Jonathan</span></font>]] -[[User talk:Joshua Jonathan|<font size="3"><span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva;color:black">Let's talk!</span></font>]] 07:08, 30 October 2014 (UTC)


== Ganj e Hozour TV program ==
::I appreciate it, but really, ''thank YOU!'' I now know English is a secondary language for you. I wouldn't have known that if your User Page hadn't said so. I didn't know who put "bagatelized" in the article originally, anyway. I hope you didn't feel insulted by my above comment. I was just frustrated, because I like to think I have a good English vocabulary (if no other languages.) Thank you for clearing this up, and I think you picked a perfectly good substitute, "trivialized", which any English-speaker, native or otherwise, will surely know.
::You have ''really'' contributed a lot to this article! It's an interesting topic, but I don't think I've ever done so many edits to a single article, in such a short span of time. It is better to do a lot of small edits, as you have done, instead of a few big ones. I'm impressed and appreciate your work! Have a great day!
::→[[User:Ben Culture|Ben Culture]] ([[User talk:Ben Culture|talk]]) 21:18, 13 November 2014 (UTC)


I removed the following content from the article:
:::Thanks! See also [[Bagatelle (music)]]. [[User:Joshua Jonathan|<font size="2"><span style="font-family:Forte;color:black">Joshua Jonathan</span></font>]] -[[User talk:Joshua Jonathan|<font size="3"><span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva;color:black">Let's talk!</span></font>]] 21:53, 13 November 2014 (UTC)


<small>=== Ganj e Hozour ===
== Theosophical revieww ==
The concept of ''ego death'' is also seen in the teachings of ''Parviz Shahbazi''<ref name=mn20>Parviz Shahbazi, Ganj e Hozour (Treasure of Presence) TV, [Hotbird 12520, V, 27500], [Galaxy 19 12028, H, 22000], [Yahsat 11766, V, 27500]</ref> (''[[Iranian peoples|Iranian]] mysticism researcher''), where according to the ideology derived from the poems of great figures such as [[Rumi]], human consciousness is suffering from an error and a sense of defect, it is called "mental self"<ref name=mn2>

{{cite web
[http://books.google.nl/books?id=evwLAAAAIAAJ&q=vedanta+%22ego+death%22&dq=vedanta+%22ego+death%22&hl=nl&sa=X&ei=nlxTVNmnFIfCOc-ogaAD&ved=0CHEQ6AEwCw] 1899?!? [[User:Joshua Jonathan|<font size="2"><span style="font-family:Forte;color:black">Joshua Jonathan</span></font>]] -[[User talk:Joshua Jonathan|<font size="3"><span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva;color:black">Let's talk!</span></font>]] 09:58, 31 October 2014 (UTC)
|url = https://www.aparat.com/v/9PUlq/%D8%A2%DB%8C%D9%86%D9%87_%D9%88_%D8%AA%D8%B5%D9%88%DB%8C%D8%B1_-_%D9%85%D9%86_%D8%B0%D9%87%D9%86%DB%8C
:Ah, no; different topic... [[User:Joshua Jonathan|<font size="2"><span style="font-family:Forte;color:black">Joshua Jonathan</span></font>]] -[[User talk:Joshua Jonathan|<font size="3"><span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva;color:black">Let's talk!</span></font>]] 04:58, 15 November 2014 (UTC)
|title = آینه و تصویر - من ذهنی

|trans-title =
== Semi-protected edit request on 16 November 2014 ==
|language = fa

|access-date = 9 November 2021
{{edit semi-protected|Ego death|answered=y}}
}}
<!-- Begin request -->
</ref><ref name=mn3>
There is a small typo under the section "Comparative Mythology". Instead of "teh Hero's Death", it should read "the Hero's Death".
{{cite web
<!-- End request -->
|url = https://www.aparat.com/v/4p8dC/%D9%85%D9%86_%D8%B0%D9%87%D9%86%DB%8C_%D8%B0%D9%87%D9%86_%D8%A8%D8%AF%D9%88%D9%86_%D9%86%D8%A7%D8%B8%D8%B1_%D8%A7%D8%B3%D8%AA
[[Special:Contributions/2602:306:3085:E950:34DE:4233:75FF:A20D|2602:306:3085:E950:34DE:4233:75FF:A20D]] ([[User talk:2602:306:3085:E950:34DE:4233:75FF:A20D|talk]]) 17:21, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
|title = من ذهنی ذهن بدون ناظر است

|trans-title =
{{Done}} - Thanks for pointing that out - [[User:Arjayay|Arjayay]] ([[User talk:Arjayay|talk]]) 17:46, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
|language = fa

== Semi-protected edit request on 21 November 2014 ==
|access-date = 9 November 2021
}}
</ref><ref name=mn1>
{{cite web
|url = https://esfahlan.com/blog/mind-model/
|title = من ذهنی چیست؟ آیا ما میتوانیم حقیقت را آن گونه که هست ببینیم؟
|trans-title =
|language = fa
|access-date = 9 November 2021
}}
</ref> by ''Shahbazi'' and says that because this kind of artificial identity is a kind of pain, so every decision and action based on the thoughts and feelings of this fake identity comes back to pain and this cycle continues in the human mind and life indefinitely,<ref name=mn4>
{{cite web
|url = https://www.aparat.com/v/CRQkI/%DA%AF%D9%86%D8%AC_%D8%AD%D8%B6%D9%88%D8%B1_%D8%A8%D8%A7_%D9%BE%D8%B1%D9%88%DB%8C%D8%B2_%D8%B4%D9%87%D8%A8%D8%A7%D8%B2%DB%8C_%D8%B4%D9%85%D8%A7%D8%B1%D9%87_%D9%A2%D9%A8%D9%A8
|title = گنج حضور با پرویز شهبازی شماره ٢٨٨
|trans-title =
|language = fa
|access-date = 9 November 2021
}}
</ref> unless, by surrendering and returning to the teachings of great men like [[Rumi]], we slow down this process and achieve the "sense of presence" that this fake identity covers, and from there an opening to get rid of this mental plague will emerge. According to ''Shahbazi'', "sense of presence" like light in the dark leads to repeated identifications of repetitive thought patterns of "mental self"<ref>[[گنج حضور|برنامه گنج حضور]] با اجرای پرویز شهبازی، شماره ۴۷۵، بخش سوم</ref> (''or, according to [[Eckhart Tolle]], the same as shining the light of consciousness on mental processes''<ref>
{{cite book
|last = تُله
|first = اکهارت
|author-link = اکهارت تولی
|date =
|title = تمرین نیروی حال
|url =
|location =
|publisher =
|quote =
|language = fa
|volume = ۱۸-۳۱
|page =
|isbn =
}}
</ref>) and the individual who pursues those identifications, gradually, he/she recognizes this sense of imperfection and this false identity<ref name=mn5>
{{cite web
|url = https://www.aparat.com/v/qB7QU
|title = ناظر بر ذهن
|trans-title =
|language = fa
|access-date = 9 November 2021
}}
</ref> (''it happens to some at once, such as the [[Buddha]] or the master of [[Rumi]], [[Shams Tabrizi]]''), and he/she finally gives up of it. In this state, the person is freed from captivity in his thoughts and feelings and joins the space of non-existence (''a space of life and life force, empty of thought, the mind thinks by feeding from this space''). In other words, in addition to thinking and feeling, he/she achieves an open space that is full of life, stillness and peace, and from now on, the point of reliance of his personality becomes this space of non-existence instead of pure thought, which is of pain, lack and competition. Therefore, every decision and action of his/her (''although it is done with the tools of the mind'') will have a good result for him/her (''it does not cause pain to oneself or others, because it is not caused by a feeling of inferiority, lack, or competition'', ''this concept mentioned in [[Buddha|Buddha's]] teachings''<ref name=crystal>[http://www.crystalinks.com/buddha.html Buddha], CRISTALINKS</ref> ''under the name of "[[Duḥkha]]"''<ref>{{cite book|author= Malcolm Huxter|title= Healing the Heart and Mind with Mindfulness: Ancient Path, Present Moment|url= https://books.google.com/books?id=n2qFCwAAQBAJ|year= 2016|publisher= Routledge|isbn= 978-1-317-50540-2|page= 10}}, '''Quote:''' "dukkha (unsatisfactoriness or suffering) (....) In the Introduction I wrote that dukkha is probably best understood as unsatisfactoriness."</ref><ref>{{Cite web|url=https://www.snsociety.org/translating-dukkha-as-unhappiness/|title=Translating Dukkha as Unhappiness|date=June 2017}}</ref><ref name=peterharvey26>{{cite book|author= Peter Harvey|editor= Steven M. Emmanuel|title= A Companion to Buddhist Philosophy|url= https://books.google.com/books?id=P_lmCgAAQBAJ|year= 2015|publisher= John Wiley & Sons|isbn= 978-1-119-14466-3|pages= 26–31}}</ref> ''and also in [[Hinduism]]''<ref name="توفیقی، حسین">توفیقی، حسین: آشنایی با ادیان بزرگ. سازمان مطالعه و تدوین کتب علوم انسانی دانشگاه‌ها (سمت): مؤسسه فرهنگی طه و مرکز جهانی علوم اسلامی. تهران: ۲۰۰۰.</ref> ''and the writings of [[Eckhart Tolle]]''<ref>
{{cite book
|last = تُله
|first = اکهارت
|author-link = اکهارت تولی
|date =
|title = زمینی نو
|url =
|location =
|publisher =
|quote =
|language = fa
|volume =
|page = ۳
|isbn =
}}
</ref><ref>
{{cite book
|last = تُله
|first = اکهارت
|author-link = اکهارت تولی
|date =
|title = نیروی حال
|url =
|location =
|publisher =
|quote =
|language = fa
|volume = ۶-۱۶
|page =
|isbn =
}}
</ref>). In fact, this is the same direct perception and action through the [[Sufi metaphysics#Waḥdat al-Wujūd (unity of existence)|unity of existence]] that is also referred to in [[Irfan|Islamic mysticism]].<ref name=mn8>
{{cite web
|url = http://ensani.ir/fa/article/76145/%D9%88%D8%AC%D9%88%D8%AF-%D9%85%D9%86%D8%A8%D8%B3%D8%B7-%D8%A7%D8%B2-%D8%AF%DB%8C%D8%AF%DA%AF%D8%A7%D9%87-%D8%B9%D8%B1%D9%81%D8%A7%D9%86-%D8%A7%D8%B3%D9%84%D8%A7%D9%85%DB%8C-%D9%88-%D8%AD%DA%A9%D9%85%D8%AA-%D9%85%D8%AA%D8%B9%D8%A7%D9%84%DB%8C%D9%87
|title = وجود منبسط از دیدگاه عرفان اسلامی و حکمت متعالیه
|trans-title =
|language = fa
|access-date = 9 November 2021
}}
</ref><ref>
{{cite journal
| last = شهیدی
| first = سعیده سادات
| date =
| title = وجود منبسط از دیدگاه عرفان اسلامی و حکمت متعالیه
| trans-title =
| url = https://www.magiran.com/paper/337677
| language = fa
| journal = مشکواه النور
| quote = سال ۱۳۸۴ - شماره ۳۰ و ۳۱
| volume =
| issue =
| pages =
| doi =
| access-date =
}}
</ref><ref>
{{cite journal
| last = نژاد سلیم
| first = رحیم
| date =
| title = وحدت وجود در عرفان اسلامی
| trans-title =
| url = http://ensani.ir/fa/article/101901/%D9%88%D8%AD%D8%AF%D8%AA-%D9%88%D8%AC%D9%88%D8%AF-%D8%AF%D8%B1-%D8%B9%D8%B1%D9%81%D8%A7%D9%86-%D8%A7%D8%B3%D9%84%D8%A7%D9%85%DB%8C
| language = fa
| journal = کیهان اندیشه
| quote = سال ۱۳۷۱ - شماره ۴۱
| volume =
| issue =
| pages =
| doi =
| access-date =
}}
</ref><ref>
{{cite journal
| last = نظری
| first = رقیه
| date =
| title = وحدت وجود در عرفان اسلامی
| trans-title =
| url = http://jostar-elmi.maalem.ir/article_63955.html
| language = fa
| journal = جستار
| quote = دوره ۸، شماره ۲۵.۲۶ - شماره پیاپی ۲۵ - بهار ۱۳۸۹ - صفحه ۷۰-۸۴
| volume =
| issue =
| pages = ۷۰-۸۴
| doi =
| access-date =
}}
</ref> This is the death of the ego, that is, the person arrives in a mature state of consciousness and no longer defines himself or herself in terms of thoughts as separate from the world (''[[Nondualism]]''),<ref>{{cite book|author=Bucke|title=Cosmic Consciousness|url=|date=|publisher=|isbn=978-0-7914-3067-5|pages=|first=Richard|year=|location=}}</ref> thus instead of opposing and resisting against the components of the external world (''which include confronting other human beings and resisting events that are considered the divine will''), joins the world and achieves harmony and peace. By this way he/she can calmly act according to his/her needs in the outside world.<ref>
{{cite book
|last = شهبازی
|first = پرویز
|author-link =
|date =
|title = گنج حضور
|url =
|location = تهران
|publisher = فردوس
|quote = جلد ۱
|language = fa
|volume = ۱
|page = ۱۵-۵۳
|isbn =
}}
</ref><ref>[[گنج حضور|برنامه گنج حضور]] با اجرای پرویز شهبازی، شماره ۸۴۳، بخش اول و دوم و سوم و چهارم، تاریخ اجرا: ۱ دسامبر ۲۰۲۰ - ۱۲ آذر ۱۳۹۹</ref><ref>[[گنج حضور|برنامه گنج حضور]] با اجرای پرویز شهبازی، شماره ۸۸۱، بخش اول و دوم و سوم و چهارم، تاریخ اجرا: ۳۱ اوت ۲۰۲۱ - ۱۰ شهریور ۱۴۰۰ </ref><ref>[[گنج حضور|برنامه گنج حضور]] با اجرای پرویز شهبازی، شماره ۸۳۴، بخش اول و دوم و سوم و چهارم، تاریخ اجرا: ۲۹ سپتامبر ۲۰۲۰ - ۹ مهر ۱۳۹۹ </ref><ref>[[گنج حضور|برنامه گنج حضور]] با اجرای پرویز شهبازی، شماره ۸۴۸، بخش اول و دوم و سوم و چهارم، تاریخ اجرا: ۵ ژانویه ۲۰۲۱ - ۱۷ دی ۱۳۹۹</ref><ref>[[گنج حضور|برنامه گنج حضور]] با اجرای پرویز شهبازی، شماره ۸۷۰، بخش اول و دوم و سوم و چهارم، تاریخ اجرا: ۸ ژوئن ۲۰۲۱ - ۱۹ خرداد ۱۴۰۰</ref>
{{reflist-talk}}</small>


Ganj e Hozour is a TV program, and so may be a questionable source, run by Parviz Shahbazi, whose credentials I was unable to confirm. The content seems to be mainly [[WP:SYNTHESIS|Synthesis]], cobbling together ideas from Rumi, Shams Tabrizi, Eckhart Tolle, Buddha and Hinduism to support some undefined concept. The content makes inappropriate use of italics and uses [[WP:PUFFERY|Puffery]], as in “great figures”. Most of the references are in Persian and so cannot be verified by the average English language reader ([[WP:NONENG]] – “English-language sources are preferred over non-English ones”).
{{edit semi-protected|Ego death|answered=yes}}
<!-- Begin request -->


Overall, I can’t see this as being an improvement to the article. It appears to be mainly promotion for Ganj e Hozour TV and Parviz Shahbazi ([[WP:NOTPROMOTION]]) - [[User:Epinoia|Epinoia]] ([[User talk:Epinoia|talk]]) 04:11, 14 November 2021 (UTC)
this really needs to be spell checked


:Read through it, looked at the sources. This is basically a tele-evangelist preaching non-dualism or neo-advaita, or something. It's a ''random TV priest''. There probably are hundreds of similar gurus and old men that preaches the same thing, in various countries. Also the sources that does not link directly to his TV program is not of high quality. He ''could'' be mentioned in the article, but then as a single sentence with a couple of good sources, rather than a whole section. The curious reader could then click the references, and learn more. · · · [[User:Omnissiahs hierophant|Omnissiahs hierophant]] ([[User talk:Omnissiahs hierophant|talk]]) 11:41, 14 November 2021 (UTC)
<!-- End request -->
[[Special:Contributions/104.156.240.140|104.156.240.140]] ([[User talk:104.156.240.140|talk]]) 02:01, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
:You're right: lots of spelling mistakes. Any that I missed? [[User:Stickee|Stickee]] <small>[[User talk:Stickee|(talk)]]</small> 05:18, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 20:53, 17 January 2024

Ego death

[edit]

It is something you experience. Not something passed on as some kind of cultural artefact or learned idea. You cant read about it and gain insight. You can't explain it to someone who hasn't experienced it.....and yet - if you really have experienced it - you know that deep down..... everyone else understands it too because we are all the same creature, and separate identities are an illusion. Words are turds — Preceding unsigned comment added by 185.69.145.239 (talk) 00:14, 16 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

[edit]

Hi, I have removed all of the links due to guideline violation, and another editor reverted and requested an explanation on Talk. So I am here to provide an explanation of the reasoning for removing each of the links. The guidelines that I am referring to can be found here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:External_links#Links_normally_to_be_avoided

The links about psychedelics, spirituality, self-help and depersonalization contain a lot of factually inaccurate material or unverifiable research.

The self-awakening forum serves as a form of advertising and promotion of a website.

The fashion link is a form of advertising and requires registration to access the content.

Please let me know if you have any disagreements or confusions, I would be more than happy to clarify.--198.71.112.21 (talk) 01:36, 26 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks; could you also copy-paste the specific links? Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 02:53, 26 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Joshua Jonathan: My apologies for the late response. I have quoted parts of my reply above and copy/pasted the links directly from the article below to each quoted part of my reply.

The links about psychedelics, spirituality, self-help and depersonalization contain a lot of factually inaccurate material or unverifiable research.

Psychedelics
Psychedelics and spirituality/religion
Spirituality
Self-help
Depersonalisation

The self-awakening forum serves as a form of advertising and promotion of a website.

Self-awakening

The fashion link is a form of advertising and requires registration to access the content.

Fashion

--198.71.112.21 (talk) 01:13, 20 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks;

  • 1 - usefull site with a lot of information on psychdelics
  • 2 - also usefull, I think, when you're interested in this kind of stuff (though we might add a link to a drugs abuse warning page too)
  • 3 - agreed, far-out; removed
  • 4 - interesting, but spammy; removed
  • 5 - dead link?; removed
  • 6 - Almaas seems relevant; spiritual teacher with good credentials
  • 7 - dead link; removed
  • 8 - flimsy (incomplete archive?); removed
  • 9 - Shinzen Young is relevant; he's got usfull things to say about ego death and depersonalisation
  • 10 - dead link; removed
  • 11 - too bloggy; removed
  • 12 - cute!
  • 13 is odd indeed indeed; removed

Well, that's a lot, ehm, emptier yet, isn't it? Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 04:51, 20 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Joshua Jonathan: Thank you, it looks much cleaner. Here are my updated criticisms of some of the remaining links. I am also referencing the guidelines linked in my initial post.

The Diamond Approach, "Ego Death" - Should be removed per #5 guideline(the site advertises services/products)

Liberation Unleashed - forum dedicated to ego death - Should be removed per #10 guideline (chat/discussion forum)

Depersonalisation versus Enlightenment -Should be removed per #11 guideline (it's a blog that's not written by a recognized authority. If Shizen Young is relevant, the blog is not written by him anyways.)

--198.71.112.21 (talk) 05:16, 20 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Nothing on Nirvana?

[edit]

Isn't this related? --46.91.55.242 (talk) 18:40, 24 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

– there is a section on Buddhism in the article, but the sources do not relate ego death to nirvana – if you can provide a reliable source (WP:RS) that equates ego death and nirvana it can be added to the article – cheers -Epinoia (talk) 19:05, 24 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Ganj e Hozour TV program

[edit]

I removed the following content from the article:

=== Ganj e Hozour === The concept of ego death is also seen in the teachings of Parviz Shahbazi[1] (Iranian mysticism researcher), where according to the ideology derived from the poems of great figures such as Rumi, human consciousness is suffering from an error and a sense of defect, it is called "mental self"[2][3][4] by Shahbazi and says that because this kind of artificial identity is a kind of pain, so every decision and action based on the thoughts and feelings of this fake identity comes back to pain and this cycle continues in the human mind and life indefinitely,[5] unless, by surrendering and returning to the teachings of great men like Rumi, we slow down this process and achieve the "sense of presence" that this fake identity covers, and from there an opening to get rid of this mental plague will emerge. According to Shahbazi, "sense of presence" like light in the dark leads to repeated identifications of repetitive thought patterns of "mental self"[6] (or, according to Eckhart Tolle, the same as shining the light of consciousness on mental processes[7]) and the individual who pursues those identifications, gradually, he/she recognizes this sense of imperfection and this false identity[8] (it happens to some at once, such as the Buddha or the master of Rumi, Shams Tabrizi), and he/she finally gives up of it. In this state, the person is freed from captivity in his thoughts and feelings and joins the space of non-existence (a space of life and life force, empty of thought, the mind thinks by feeding from this space). In other words, in addition to thinking and feeling, he/she achieves an open space that is full of life, stillness and peace, and from now on, the point of reliance of his personality becomes this space of non-existence instead of pure thought, which is of pain, lack and competition. Therefore, every decision and action of his/her (although it is done with the tools of the mind) will have a good result for him/her (it does not cause pain to oneself or others, because it is not caused by a feeling of inferiority, lack, or competition, this concept mentioned in Buddha's teachings[9] under the name of "Duḥkha"[10][11][12] and also in Hinduism[13] and the writings of Eckhart Tolle[14][15]). In fact, this is the same direct perception and action through the unity of existence that is also referred to in Islamic mysticism.[16][17][18][19] This is the death of the ego, that is, the person arrives in a mature state of consciousness and no longer defines himself or herself in terms of thoughts as separate from the world (Nondualism),[20] thus instead of opposing and resisting against the components of the external world (which include confronting other human beings and resisting events that are considered the divine will), joins the world and achieves harmony and peace. By this way he/she can calmly act according to his/her needs in the outside world.[21][22][23][24][25][26]

References

  1. ^ Parviz Shahbazi, Ganj e Hozour (Treasure of Presence) TV, [Hotbird 12520, V, 27500], [Galaxy 19 12028, H, 22000], [Yahsat 11766, V, 27500]
  2. ^ "آینه و تصویر - من ذهنی" (in Persian). Retrieved 9 November 2021.
  3. ^ "من ذهنی ذهن بدون ناظر است" (in Persian). Retrieved 9 November 2021.
  4. ^ "من ذهنی چیست؟ آیا ما میتوانیم حقیقت را آن گونه که هست ببینیم؟" (in Persian). Retrieved 9 November 2021.
  5. ^ "گنج حضور با پرویز شهبازی شماره ٢٨٨" (in Persian). Retrieved 9 November 2021.
  6. ^ برنامه گنج حضور با اجرای پرویز شهبازی، شماره ۴۷۵، بخش سوم
  7. ^ تُله, اکهارت. تمرین نیروی حال (in Persian). Vol. ۱۸-۳۱.
  8. ^ "ناظر بر ذهن" (in Persian). Retrieved 9 November 2021.
  9. ^ Buddha, CRISTALINKS
  10. ^ Malcolm Huxter (2016). Healing the Heart and Mind with Mindfulness: Ancient Path, Present Moment. Routledge. p. 10. ISBN 978-1-317-50540-2., Quote: "dukkha (unsatisfactoriness or suffering) (....) In the Introduction I wrote that dukkha is probably best understood as unsatisfactoriness."
  11. ^ "Translating Dukkha as Unhappiness". June 2017.
  12. ^ Peter Harvey (2015). Steven M. Emmanuel (ed.). A Companion to Buddhist Philosophy. John Wiley & Sons. pp. 26–31. ISBN 978-1-119-14466-3.
  13. ^ توفیقی، حسین: آشنایی با ادیان بزرگ. سازمان مطالعه و تدوین کتب علوم انسانی دانشگاه‌ها (سمت): مؤسسه فرهنگی طه و مرکز جهانی علوم اسلامی. تهران: ۲۰۰۰.
  14. ^ تُله, اکهارت. زمینی نو (in Persian). p. ۳.
  15. ^ تُله, اکهارت. نیروی حال (in Persian). Vol. ۶-۱۶.
  16. ^ "وجود منبسط از دیدگاه عرفان اسلامی و حکمت متعالیه" (in Persian). Retrieved 9 November 2021.
  17. ^ شهیدی, سعیده سادات. "وجود منبسط از دیدگاه عرفان اسلامی و حکمت متعالیه". مشکواه النور (in Persian). سال ۱۳۸۴ - شماره ۳۰ و ۳۱
  18. ^ نژاد سلیم, رحیم. "وحدت وجود در عرفان اسلامی". کیهان اندیشه (in Persian). سال ۱۳۷۱ - شماره ۴۱
  19. ^ نظری, رقیه. "وحدت وجود در عرفان اسلامی". جستار (in Persian): ۷۰-۸۴. دوره ۸، شماره ۲۵.۲۶ - شماره پیاپی ۲۵ - بهار ۱۳۸۹ - صفحه ۷۰-۸۴
  20. ^ Bucke, Richard. Cosmic Consciousness. ISBN 978-0-7914-3067-5.
  21. ^ شهبازی, پرویز. گنج حضور (in Persian). Vol. ۱. تهران: فردوس. p. ۱۵-۵۳. جلد ۱
  22. ^ برنامه گنج حضور با اجرای پرویز شهبازی، شماره ۸۴۳، بخش اول و دوم و سوم و چهارم، تاریخ اجرا: ۱ دسامبر ۲۰۲۰ - ۱۲ آذر ۱۳۹۹
  23. ^ برنامه گنج حضور با اجرای پرویز شهبازی، شماره ۸۸۱، بخش اول و دوم و سوم و چهارم، تاریخ اجرا: ۳۱ اوت ۲۰۲۱ - ۱۰ شهریور ۱۴۰۰
  24. ^ برنامه گنج حضور با اجرای پرویز شهبازی، شماره ۸۳۴، بخش اول و دوم و سوم و چهارم، تاریخ اجرا: ۲۹ سپتامبر ۲۰۲۰ - ۹ مهر ۱۳۹۹
  25. ^ برنامه گنج حضور با اجرای پرویز شهبازی، شماره ۸۴۸، بخش اول و دوم و سوم و چهارم، تاریخ اجرا: ۵ ژانویه ۲۰۲۱ - ۱۷ دی ۱۳۹۹
  26. ^ برنامه گنج حضور با اجرای پرویز شهبازی، شماره ۸۷۰، بخش اول و دوم و سوم و چهارم، تاریخ اجرا: ۸ ژوئن ۲۰۲۱ - ۱۹ خرداد ۱۴۰۰

Ganj e Hozour is a TV program, and so may be a questionable source, run by Parviz Shahbazi, whose credentials I was unable to confirm. The content seems to be mainly Synthesis, cobbling together ideas from Rumi, Shams Tabrizi, Eckhart Tolle, Buddha and Hinduism to support some undefined concept. The content makes inappropriate use of italics and uses Puffery, as in “great figures”. Most of the references are in Persian and so cannot be verified by the average English language reader (WP:NONENG – “English-language sources are preferred over non-English ones”).

Overall, I can’t see this as being an improvement to the article. It appears to be mainly promotion for Ganj e Hozour TV and Parviz Shahbazi (WP:NOTPROMOTION) - Epinoia (talk) 04:11, 14 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Read through it, looked at the sources. This is basically a tele-evangelist preaching non-dualism or neo-advaita, or something. It's a random TV priest. There probably are hundreds of similar gurus and old men that preaches the same thing, in various countries. Also the sources that does not link directly to his TV program is not of high quality. He could be mentioned in the article, but then as a single sentence with a couple of good sources, rather than a whole section. The curious reader could then click the references, and learn more. · · · Omnissiahs hierophant (talk) 11:41, 14 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
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