Talk:El Afweyn

population 21,000

Third largest city?

El Afweyne is the second largest city after Erigavo. What other city could be bigger than it? Lasqory is 34,000 while El Afweyne is double! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.96.160.44 (talk) 20:18, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

About deleting descriptions

@Jacob300: Please explain the reason for this edit. It is notability that the specific place names are written in this type of document. Jama Ali Jama, who appears in this next section, was a politician on the Puntland government side when this document was created. It is clear that the actions of Jama Ali Jama were unjust even if fully accept Puntland's claim at the time. Without this explanation, the reader would not notice it.--Freetrashbox (talk) 21:01, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

Hi @Freetrashbox:

Thank you for your message. I removed the sentence stating 'In July 2001, the government of Puntland enacted the "Provisional Constitution of the Republic of Puntland," declaring the Sanaag region, except for El Afwein and the northeastern part of Erigavo, to be its territory.' as it have no relevance to the article as per WP:RELEVANT.

Many thanks Jacob300 (talk) 15:06, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

@Jacob300: That's not an answer. Please explain logically that the sentence marked "El Afweyn" has no relevance to El Afweyn.--Freetrashbox (talk) 20:07, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

Puntland influence

Hello @Freetrashbox:,

I reverted your recent edit since it seems to be pushing a particular POV. I don't see how the non-inclusion of El Afweyn in Puntland's claim is relevant to the article (see WP:RELEVANT). Then is the fact that the subheading "Puntland influence" is implying that Puntland has influence and some sort of control of the town (which it does not claim), which is POV pushing.

This along with the fact that "In July 2001, the government of Puntland enacted the "Provisional Constitution of the Republic of Puntland" is simply wrong since Puntland is not a republic, but a federal member state of Somalia. Gebagebo (talk) 18:25, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

@Gebagebo: "Republic of Puntland" is my mistake. I would change it to "Puntland regional government" to match the source.

I don't quite agree with your opinion that the heading "Puntland influence" is against WP:POV, but I don't strongly disagree with replacing it with "Security", so I'll compromise with "Security" here.

The sentence "Provisional Constitution of Puntland" is necessary. Without this explanation, the reader will not understand why Jama Ali Jama fled to El Afweyn and why Yusuf did not pursue him.

To Puntland, El Afweyn is "foreign country" and Jama had fled to a foreign country. Yusuf couldn't pursue Jama because Jama's army lived in foreign country. And the reason why Jama's army was able to stay in El Afweyn was probably because the residents of El Afweyn welcomed Jama as a guest. Many Somalis have the virtue of helping those in need, and treating their guests well. Otherwise, we cannot explain how Jama and his team, as foreign troops, were able to stay in El Afweyn without any major trouble. In other words, it seems hard to believe that Jama had control of the town. Even if El Afweyn did not have the power to remove Jama by force, the surrounding towns and the Somaliland government would not remain silent.--Freetrashbox (talk) 13:02, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

The issue is you labelling this "influence" as if Puntland has a presence or as if they control the town, which is clearly not the case and hasn't been. I quite frankly don't see how a rebel faction being based in El Afweyn equals Puntland presence or control. This is equivalent to me making a section in the Qardho page titled "Somaliland influence" due to the fact that Cornel Caare had a military base in Qardho ([1]) and then adding that Somaliland does not claim Qardho as part of its sovereign territory. Speculating what the reason may be and adding said speculation to articles isn't allowed on Wikipedia per WP:OR, only sourced content is.

Again, the part about the Provisional Constitution of Puntland not including El Afweyn as part of Puntland is not notable nor is it relevant to the subject at all. That's equivalent to me adding that "according to Mexico's constitution Texas is not part of Mexico" to Texas. Gebagebo (talk) 18:25, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

@Gebagebo: According to Oxford Learner's Dictionaries, the meaning of influence is "the effect that somebody/something has on the way a person thinks or behaves or on the way that something works or develops", not "control." The sentence examples shown there do not indicate "control. Please indicate examples of usage of "influence" in the sense of "control."

Jama Ali Jama was a defeated person, but formally, he was the president of Puntland, elected by the parliament. El Afweyn was influenced by the two "Puntland Presidents", Jama and Yusuf, who were vying for power, which can be called "Puntland influence." This event does not deserve to be called "security," and "security" is too abstract to be meaningful in the first place.

I am not familiar with the Mexican Constitution nor with Mexican history. Please tell me what the Mexican Constitution says about Texas. And important people in the Mexican government have done to disobey that Constitution?--Freetrashbox (talk) 12:59, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

What you have mentioned is nothing but original research. You have not explained at all how Puntland could possibly influence a town it doesn't claim. Again, I could use the same logic for Caare being based in Qardho. This is clearly POV editing, with the goal of making it seem that Puntland has influence in El Afweyn on the basis that a rebel faction was based near it.

I suggest you desist from any future POV edits like this as that is not accepted in Wikipedia. Gebagebo (talk) 13:56, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

@Gebagebo: What "point of view" do I seem to have for you? From your previous explanations, do you feel that I am plotting to make Puntland look great? As you can see from description that you erased, this is a record of the civil war in Puntland. There is no such thing as good or bad history, but this shows that Puntland was not even in control of its own country. In other words, this is a disgraceful description of Puntland. Or do you think I'm saying Puntland is worse than it is?

Again, "influence" does not mean "control." The example in the Oxford Learner's Dictionaries entry for "influence" has the sentence "His early work shows the influence of Cézanne and Matisse". However, we cannot read from this sentence that "Cézanne controlled him."

To make my intentions clearer, I'm going to refer to this subject as "Influence of the Puntland civil war" Does this solve the problem?

I have to explain to you the difference between the Mexican Constitution and the Puntland Constitution. However, I could not find where in the Mexican Constitution there is any mention of Texas. According to Transitional Constitution of Puntland regional government Article 3.1 "The territorial sovereignty of Puntland shall extend to: East Region of Bari, Nugal, Sool, South Togdher (Buhodle District), Mudug except the Districts of Hobyo and Haradhere and Sanag Region except the District of El-Afweyn and Northeast of Erigavo District." What is the number of the article in the Mexican Constitution that corresponds to this?--Freetrashbox (talk) 11:41, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

Again, I don't see how Puntland rebel forces being based in El Afweyn equals influence, especially when no source has stated that. You have once again not explained how exactly Puntland had influence over El Afweyn (a town the state doesn't claim) in 2003 through a rebel faction. It is POV in the sense that you're making it seem that Puntland has influence over said town.

Again, referring to the section as "Influence of the Puntland civil war" isn't feasible since the problem would still exist. You yourself states that you don't strongly disagree with replacing it with "Security", so keeping the section's name as security is probably the only option for now. Gebagebo (talk) 12:07, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

@Gebagebo: The presence of foreign troops in a town is itself an "influence." Also, the source does not state what security implications this event may have for El Afweyn. However, I have already agreed to rewrite this as "Security", so I think this problem is solved.

What about the Mexican Constitution?--Freetrashbox (talk) 20:57, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

@Gebagebo: As far as I have been able to determine, there is no mention of Texas in the Mexican Constitution. There is currently no explanation as to why the description of the "Transitional Constitution of Puntland regional government," which is clearly marked "El Afweyn," cannot be used in the El Afweyn article. If there is no additional explanation, the description of this section will be reverted after correcting the name of the constitution.--Freetrashbox (talk) 01:31, 12 February 2022 (UTC)

@Freetrashbox: The point about the Mexican Constitution is just an example. You have still not shown how the non-inclusion of a town should be added to the town's article. That is not relevant. Gebagebo (talk) 22:40, 12 February 2022 (UTC)

@Gebagebo: Your statement is unclear. If you are going to argue that a source of information include the subject cannot be used to explain the Wikipedia article, you need to be more specific. I sense a political agenda in your attempt to limit the editing of others by bringing up the irrelevant "Mexican Constitution."--Freetrashbox (talk) 23:24, 12 February 2022 (UTC)

@Freetrashbox: Me arguing the non-inclusion of a region according to Puntland's constitution shouldn't be added to the article = political agenda is honestly the furthest stretch I've ever seen. You failed once again to explain how exactly this information is relevant to the El Afweyn article. My statement is very clear and concise. Gebagebo (talk) 23:34, 12 February 2022 (UTC)

@Freetrashbox: I also reworded the section a little bit to reflect the content of the sources cited. Gebagebo (talk) 23:51, 12 February 2022 (UTC)

@Gebagebo: You have not answered my question. And your edit does not solve the problem. Dhuudo is a region of Puntland for both Somaliland and Puntland.

Qardho

El Afwein

Dhuudo

In your explanation, readers who only read this part may misidentify El Afweyn as Puntland. It is impossible to understand this passage correctly without stating that El Afweyn is foreign area to Puntland (even if the disputed Puntland territorial claims are fully recognized.)--Freetrashbox (talk) 00:40, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

@Freetrashbox: I have clarified in my newest edit that Dhuudo town (Dhuudo is not a region) is part of Puntland. I'm pretty sure no reader would magically jump to the "Security" section of the article and only read it instead of the rest of the article.

I'm also pretty sure that, given El Afweyn is such a niche topic for the average Wikipedia reader, that whoever reads the article is already familiar with the Puntland-Somaliland dispute and Somaliland-related topics and is very likely to know that El Afweyn isn't in Puntland. There is no need to add the non-inclusion of a town/district in Puntland's claim into the article itself, that is completely irrelevant. Gebagebo (talk) 01:07, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

@Gebagebo: Even if people are not familiar with Somalia or Somaliland, they will read this article if there is a serious incident in El Afweyn. I think with your current correction, readers no longer misunderstand El Afweyn to be Puntland, but it hard to understand that El Afweyn to be a "border town." I think it would be useful to use the Transitional Constitution of Puntland regional government as a source of information to explain this.--Freetrashbox (talk) 01:27, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

@Freetrashbox: I highly doubt anyone would misunderstand El Afweyn to be part of Puntland, given that if we forget the niche nature of the article, the infobox, the lead and most of the content clearly describe the town as part of Somaliland. El Afweyn is also not a border town, I don't know where you're getting this information from.

The Transitional Constitution of Puntland regional government does not explain anything, it only mentions that Puntland claims most of Sanaag except for El Afweyn district and parts of Erigavo district. It does not mention the town as a border, and the district boundary actually extends eastwards from El Afweyn. Gebagebo (talk) 02:05, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

@Gebagebo: I know that the border claimed by Somaliland is far east of El Afweyn. In this case, it is important to understand how the people of Puntland thought of their borders. Since "El Afweyn district is not Puntland" according to Puntland's claim, it is clear that the border with Somaliland, as considered by the puntland government at that time, is the side closer to the center of Puntland in El Afweyn district, that is, the eastern side. The distinction between district and town in Somali administrative divisions is often ambiguous. In most cases, the urban area is called Town, and the area including the surrounding areas is called district. And Towns such as Damala Hagare and Fiqifuliye to the east of El Afweyn town are not in El Afweyn district. In this case, the eastern end of El Afweyn district and the eastern end of El Afweyn town both mean the same thing. --Freetrashbox (talk) 03:15, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

@Freetrashbox: Like I said before, speculation is not allowed per WP:OR. I see a lot of speculation and no sources.

Your point is also irrelevant since the El Afweyn district extends another 18km east, which is a significant distance. And this is just per Somalia's administrative boundaries (and thus Puntland's). Per Somaliland's administrative boundaries the districts extends a lot further to the east. Fiqifuliye is 48km east of the district boundaries and Damala Xagarre is 65km, so both towns are irrelevant to the discussion to begin with.

The fact you consider El Afweyn a "border town" shows you really should do more research on this topic. I doubt you have enough knowledge about this topic to be editing on it. Gebagebo (talk) 20:09, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

@Gebagebo: Since the eastern boundary of El Afweyn district is a mountain range, it is natural that there is a distance between El Afweyn town. However, further discussion is a waste of time for us, so I will write this description in El Afweyn District. I hope this solves the problem. --Freetrashbox (talk) 11:23, 15 February 2022 (UTC)

@Freetrashbox: Again this solves nothing since the content in question is irrelevant. Gebagebo (talk) 21:32, 15 February 2022 (UTC)

@Gebagebo: I don't understand what you're saying. It is natural to write Al Afweyn related information to Al Afweyn article and no further proof is needed. According to your citated essay WP:RELEVANT, the information directly referring to the subject is "Relevance level High." I request some examples of a similar case where the description was removed in English Wikipedia.--Freetrashbox (talk) 10:50, 16 February 2022 (UTC)

How is "Puntland doesn't claim El Afweyn" relevant to El Afweyn? You've failed to adequately answer the question. Gebagebo (talk) 15:54, 17 February 2022 (UTC)

@Gebagebo: It shows what the Puntland government thought of El Afweyn at the time.--Freetrashbox (talk) 19:59, 17 February 2022 (UTC)

@Gebagebo: If you don't provide a rule or case where my description is a violation of Wikipedia rules, I will reinstate the description. My description does not violate the WP:RELEVANT you indicated, and besides, WP:RELEVANT is only an essay, not a guideline.--Freetrashbox (talk) 10:25, 18 February 2022 (UTC)

Per WP:NOCONSENSUS you cannot reinstate content that is under dispute.

So far you have not provided any evidence that this is relevant to the El Afweyn article in any way, instead providing me your own original analysis of the source at hand (which is not allowed on Wikipedia). Gebagebo (talk) 14:52, 18 February 2022 (UTC)

@Gebagebo: What I'm asking is on what basis you are requesting removal. "Transitional Constitution of Puntland regional government, declaring the Sanaag region, except the District of El Afweyn and Northeast of Erigavo District, to be its territory." is as described in the information source, not WP:OR. "No relevant to the El Afweyn article" is your impression, not a fact. If you have nominated an article for deletion, and others favour keeping it, do participate in the discussion, basing your argument on policies and guidelines (WP:POINT.) WP:NOCONSENSUS is the action to be taken when consensus is not reached, and the relevant Wikipedia rules should be shown separately from it.--Freetrashbox (talk) 21:19, 18 February 2022 (UTC)

@Gebagebo: If you can't show the example(s) of the English Wikipdeia rule(s) or agreement(s) that says, "Even commentary on a subject can't be written in that article," I will reinstate the description.--Freetrashbox (talk) 01:40, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

You can't just unilaterally reinstate irrelevant content per WP:NOCONSENSUS. Your planned reinstating would be disruptive editing. Gebagebo (talk) 01:56, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

Gebagebo, may I present my opinion? I see no reason to prevent Freetrashbox's edit. A foreign army's presence in a state is worthy of explanation no matter what. I do not see how you can reasonably justify it as 'irrelevant'. A city being claimed and occupied by different states is a natural part of history. Furthermore, your statement "whoever reads the article ... is very likely to know that" is a breach of WP:AUDIENCE. Thank you. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 12:23, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

@AirshipJungleman29: I believe you misunderstood the issue. The issue is not the presence (I even improved the section mentioning it per WP:VERIFICATION link link), the issue is exactly how Puntland not claiming a district is relevant to the district capital. That would be more relevant in Sanaag, the region Puntland claims parts of.

The way Freetrashbox is going about it he's attempting to make it seem that Puntland has influence in a town it does not claim due to Puntland rebel forces being based there.

I'm willing to compromise on this matter but only if the language is neutral and there is no POV. Gebagebo (talk) 12:48, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

You don't think an explanation for how rebel forces of a completely separate state ended up based in El Afweyn is relevant? The current article makes it sound like they just wandered mindlessly across miles of foreign territory before settling in the town, almost randomly. The fact that Puntland claimed nearby territories, with the specific exception of El Afweyn, is extremely relevant to the article. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 12:57, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

Here's the thing: I can't find a reliable source that gives an explanation for why they ended up based in El Afweyn. The explanation Freetrashbox is trying to add is original analysis. Mudugonline, a source he cited mentions politicians as well as El Afweyn residents protesting their presence, that section translated says:

El-Afweyn residents and Somaliland politicians have been mounting pressure on the militia in recent days, with the exception of President Dahir Riyale Kahin, those who are opposed to the presence of Puntland opposition militias have demanded that the militia leave their area. This would imply that the Somaliland government was OK with this, however without a reliable source explicitly stating that it can't be added.

Again, the non-inclusion of El Afweyn District in Puntland's claim is not relevant to the article about El Afweyn town, unless you can convince me otherwise. Gebagebo (talk) 14:46, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

@AirshipJungleman29: Since you insist that the inclusion is indeed relevant, I'd like to propose a compromise. How about this:

Jama Ali Jama, who had temporarily assumed the presidency after expelling then Puntland president Abdullahi Yusuf from the capital Garowe in 2002, retreated to El Afwein after a heavy defeat in Dhuudo, Puntland in December 2002. The miltia remained stationed in El Afwein, a town outside of Puntland's claimed jurisdiction, until early 2003 when both sides reconciled. Parts of the militia surrendered to Puntland forces on March 2003, with the militia itself withdrawing to Bosaso on April the same year.

That way context would be given using a neutral tone in accordance with WP:NPOV. Gebagebo (talk) 00:16, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

Jama Ali Jama, who had temporarily assumed the Puntland presidency after expelling then president Abdullahi Yusuf from the capital Garowe in 2002, retreated to El Afwein after a heavy defeat in Dhuudo, Puntland in December 2002. The miltia remained stationed in El Afwein, a town outside of Puntland's claimed jurisdiction until early 2003, when both sides reconciled. Parts of the militia surrendered to Puntland forces on March 2003, with the militia itself withdrawing to Bosaso on April the same year.

With a bit of syntactical rejigging as above, that seems to work. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 00:23, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

@AirshipJungleman29: With this example, the content concerning the fact that Puntland doesn't claim the town has been reworded and has been blended into the section to give it the relevancy that it requires. The sentence In July 2001, the government of Puntland enacted the "Provisional Constitution of the Republic of Puntland," declaring the Sanaag region, except for El Afwein and the northeastern part of Erigavo, to be its territory by itself isn't relevant due to the wording, while "the miltia remained stationed in El Afwein, a town outside of Puntland's claimed jurisdiction" however is, in addition to providing more context to the average reader per WP:AUDIENCE.

I'm awaiting @Freetrashbox:'s input. Gebagebo (talk) 00:32, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

@AirshipJungleman29 and Gebagebo:I can accept either AirshipJungleman29 or Gebagebo's proposed text. Thanks.--Freetrashbox (talk) 21:05, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

References