Talk:Hüsülü, Lachin

False sources

@TagaworShah: I've removed your additions as all of them cite sources that make no mention of what you've claimed in the article itself. The most obvious one is here when you add about a supposed Armenian-majority with a source that doesn't even mention Husulu once. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 07:42, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

Edit war

CuriousGolden and TagaworShah, you both need to stop edit warring and reach to a consensus here. TagaworShah, per WP:CONSENSUS, I reverted the article to a stable version until a consensus is reach, (both of you) do not edit the article until then. Also, in any case, avoid labelling other editors' edits as "vandalism", as it is WP:ADHOMINEM. --► Sincerely: SolaVirum 02:58, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

Hello SolarVirum, I am Tagaworshah. Now I see where you are coming from however I have taken in account the criticism of CuriousGolden and changed my wording and added more precise sources for that matter. When my content was deleted, I didn’t see any valid disagreement, as I am always open to consider other arguments, I saw the deletion of content backed up my multiple reliable sources. The claim that they did not talk about the village in question could be easily debunked by reading the quotes I provided from each source. Again, I would be glad to further discuss my sources however “ repeatedly removing reliable sources posted by other editors” is seen as Wikipedia:Disruptive editing. I gladly accepted the criticism of the first edit and brought back more reliable sources, I have even more sources I planned to add. If there is any part of my source work or wording that you’d like to disagree with, I would be happy to discuss and come to a consensus however deleting perfectly valid sources without valid reason isn’t an argument. I see you are colleagues with CuriousGolden, and that you reverted back to their work. If it’s ok with you, I would like to restore my content. After the second edit by CuriousGolden, I did in fact add additional source material and have considered everything they said. I hope you understand Sincerely: TagaworShah (talk) 04:20, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

The things you add aren't supported by the sources you're providing (which are also not WP:RS by the way). Let's dissect each addition separately. Firstly, you're adding the supposed Armenian name to the village in the lead in bold letters near the WP:COMMONNAME of Hüsülü. We don't add other names in bold to the lead unless the village was Armenian-populated before the First Nagorno-Karabakh war or the Armenian name is the modern common name. And in this case, like all others, this village was Azerbaijani-populated and the Armenian name isn't the modern common name. Secondly, you've added This village was originally known as Melikashen by its Armenian residents for the princely palace of the Armenian Melik Haykaz yet the source you added doesn't even mention the name "Melikashen". The quote for that source you've added mentions Melik Haykaz from Kashtaq country, but there's nothing about this village like the sentence you've added to the article claims. Thirdly, you've added ..built here in the year 1480. Melik Haykazyan, the first dynastic ruler of the melikdom of Agachech-Kashatag (1450-1520), made Melikashen his summer residence. with a source that again, doesn't even mention Melikashen once. And the rest are the same. You're adding material that isn't even mentioned in the sources you're giving. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 08:34, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

@CuriousGolden: @Solavirum: Guys, remember not to bite the newcomers, follow Wikipedias guidelines on dispute resolution and try to fix problems by rewriting the passages or flagging problematic parts instead of removing content if possible.

The largest part of the historical context of the village added by @TagaworShah: seems to match the sources that were provided as far as I can tell from a cursory view:

Melik Haykazyan, the first dynastic ruler of the melikdom of Agachech-Kashatag (1450-1520), made Melikashen his summer residence. His palace was built here on an artificial slope surrounded by a fortified wall with towers and gates. The palace complex is located inside the rectangular territory of the courtyard. The living area of Melik Haykaz was located on the ground floor while his throne room was located on the gallery of the second floor. It follows the classical architectural style of the Armenian Melik Palace, it has been recently restored and turned into a hotel.

It seems that the source provided for the first part about the summer residence of Melik Haykazyan in Melikashen, which is referred to as the "The palace of Kashatagh" in the text, seems to be a correct reference as far as I can tell: [1].

@Revolution Saga: @RaffiKojian:, as you guys helped with the Handaberd/Lekh Castle article and its historical context, perhaps you have some insight with regard to the newly added content [2] to this article as well? AntonSamuel (talk) 10:50, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

Explaining what's wrong with their edit to a newcomer in hopes of them improving it is surely not biting them. In fact, I opened a discussion explaining them politely why I reverted their edit when they first made additions. Technically, adding content that isn't supported by the given sources is subtle vandalism but I believe the good faith of the editor. And none of the sources they provided actually mention Melikashen (assuming something else that was mentioned in the source is Melikashen is WP:OR without a sourced confirmation) and I've pointed out what's wrong with each one of their additions separately in my comment above, which you can read for yourself, therefore I won't repeat them here. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 11:01, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

@CuriousGolden: I would say your discussion style here is pretty confrontational and heated, calling edits and sources "false", strongly criticizing the parts you find problematic, while removing all of the added content including that which matches the sources used, instead of tagging problematic parts or doing some research of your own regarding the matter in order to add content and better sources. Throwing around Wikipedia guidelines such as WP:OR and WP:SNEAKY when describing an editor's additions without caution is not very friendly or constructive either. I don't believe they really qualify here. Regardless, if a Wikipedia guideline is used to prevent constructive additions, such as adding historical context to an article, the rule can be ignored - focus on improvements, not rules. AntonSamuel (talk) 11:18, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

I called their sources "false", which it is, since what they're adding isn't even mentioned in the sources they've added. Not sure if you missed the but I believe the good faith of the editor part since I wasn't calling specifically this user's edits WP:SNEAKY. Anyway, I really don't care enough to be arguing about who did what good and who did what bad as it's an unconstructive and tiring discussion. I'd advise you to focus on the topic itself rather than the editors, as accusing other editors, who were trying to explain a newcomer what part of their edit is wrong so that they could imrpove it, of biting isn't that nice or constructive either. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 11:25, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

@CuriousGolden: I believe my criticism of your argumentative style on this page was quite warranted, and I hope you take more care in the future to be fair and civil when discussing content additions, especially with newer editors. AntonSamuel (talk) 11:39, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

AntonSamuel, where did I exactly "bite him"? I don't care about the topic, just called both to respect each other and conclude this issue with a consensus. Now, for the related part of your comment, CuriousGolden has a point here, even if the major third-party really mentioned what TagaworShah wrote, the editor has to add the real books or articles that mention it as citations. --► Sincerely: SolaVirum 11:05, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

@Solavirum: See my reply above regarding what I thought was problematic. There is nothing wrong with calling for discussion. However, if a newer editor's additions made in good faith are completely removed, even if parts of the additions can be argued to be problematic, that that user perceives them as vandalism isn't that far-fetched. AntonSamuel (talk) 11:39, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

And that's why I called on his comments being against the guidelines. Someone has to explain and to explain doesn't mean to "bite." --► Sincerely: SolaVirum 11:43, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

CuriousGolden: Hello, on your points about my sources. My first source was establishing the Armenian nationality of Melik Haykaz and the region he came from, that was important background information. Also, all of my sources fit the wikipedia guidelines of a reliable source seeing as most come from published studies or books. Also on your point of “.built here in the year 1480. Melik Haykazyan, the first dynastic ruler of the melikdom of Agachech-Kashatag (1450-1520), made Melikashen his summer residence.” The quote I provided which was from a very reputable source described the exact location of the palace in Kashatagh, “ 2. The palace of Kashatagh (15th cent.) (pl. 2-3, I) is situated on the left bank of Tzitzernavanits tributary of the Aghavno river in the district of Kashatagh (Lachin). It refers to Melik-Haykaz the First (1450 - 1520), the founder of melikal principality of Kashatagh and is dated the end of the 15th cent. It is built on the slope of a hill.” as you can see it directly references the nearby Monastery and the bank of the river Husulu is located on. All my other sources directly mention melikashen with the exception of the source for the palace followed classical Armenian architecture which did not explicitly mention Melikashen but did explicitly talk about the Palace within Melikashen. As far as the rest of the sources go, I truly do not see the problem with them. Let’s go for a consensus and leave the history section, we can take out the native name although it might be misleading to readers if they don’t know the name. My last sources also directly connects Husulu to Melikashen if that was the problem. Sincerely: TagaworShah (talk) 11:43, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

Hi. The first sentence you added claims that the village was originally known as Melikashen, by its supposed Armenian residents. Yet, there is no such thing written in the source you have provided for this claim. It does talk about Melik-Haykaz, which you can keep. The second part of that sentence claims it was built in 1480, which is unsourced. In the second sentence, you have stated that Melik Haykazan made Melikashen his summer residence. Nothing about "summer residence" is mentioned in the source you have provided and neither is the word "Melikashen". The third and fourth sentences His palace was built here on an artificial slope surrounded by a fortified wall with towers and gates. The palace complex is located inside the rectangular territory of the courtyard. are completely unsourced. The rest seem somewhat fine. Though, almost all of this is about a palace, which is supposedly located in the village, and not about the actual village itself, which makes me question the whole content's relevance to this article. And we already have "Melikashen" written as an alternate Armenian name in the History section near "Tsitsernavank", so I doubt it'd create any confusion to any reader. I would recommend for you to change the content of your additions to be closer to what the source says to avoid making any assumptions. Cheers. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 12:04, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

@CuriousGolden: I will take your advice and take out the first sentence, however for your other points, all of that is directly sourced from the source material. The 1480 part is from 2 sources, “ is dated the end of the 15th cent” and “ The village of Melikashen houses the palace of Kashatagh meliks built in the 1480s.” This is the source by Artak Ghulyan and Vigen Avetisyan. As for it being a summer residence, the last source by Rouben Galichian “ the village of Melikashen, Lachin district which was the rennovated and refurbished summerhouse of Melik Haykaz.” As for your last point, “His palace was built here on an artificial slope surrounded by a fortified wall with towers and gates. The palace complex is located inside the rectangular territory of the courtyard.” this is sourced directly from “ The Melikatun (Melik House) complex is surrounded by a fortified wall with a tower and a gate. The palace consists of two-story chambers with vaulted rooms and other buildings. This structure was built by Melik Haykaz in 1480.” from the Vigen Avetisyan source and “ . It is built on the slope of a hill, on the altitude created with brace walls. It consists of three smoothly covered, adjoined rooms, a colonnade arched hall and a two-storied vaulted hall adjoined to them from the west and the melik's flat is on the first floor and the open upper hall -the summer reception-throne hall -of Melik Haykaz is on the second floor.” Now that we got that covered, can I restore the history section sans the first sentence, the palace is very important in Armenian history and the village was known and founded for that purpose so I believe it is very relevant, again my last source directly connects Husulu with the palace and Melikashen. Sincerely: TagaworShah (talk) 12:28, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

I've trimmed down the text to include relevant parts and to match the given sources, based on the points you and I have made:

A palace of an Armenian melik, Melik Haykaz, who was the first ruler of Agachech-Kashatag melikdom, built in 1480 is located close to the village. The palace was built on a slope surrounded by a fortified wall with towers and gates. It had several floors, with Melik Haykaz's living room being located on the ground floor and his throne room is located on the second floor. The palace was turned into a hotel in 2007.

What do you think? (By the way, you can ping by using {{ping|CuriousGolden}} ). Cheers. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 12:39, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

@CuriousGolden:: Thank you for the tip! Yes I think your suggestion is good however, I believe it is important to mention the melikdom of kashatagh and the simmilarities between this structure and other melik structures. Besides that it is perfect, what do you think of the additions? sincerely: TagaworShah (talk) 12:53, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

Sure, then we can add a The palace's style followed the classical architectural style of the Armenian Meliks. between the sentence about floors and it being turned to hotel. How does that sound? — CuriousGolden (T·C) 13:01, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

@CuriousGolden: Sounds great! I’m glad we could reach a consensus. Thank you for the input, I will be updating the article with that context soon. Cheers. TagaworShah (talk) 13:09, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

Great, thanks. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 13:10, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

@AntonSamuel: - my favorite source for this region is "Armenian Cultural Monuments in the Region of Karabakh", by Samvel Karapetian (TagaworShah uses another of RAA's publications as a reference). It is online here: http://www.raa-am.com/raa/pdf_files/136.pdf and you can read about the Melik's house and the village name on pages 147-149 (it says the original Armenian village name was in fact Kashatagh, same as the name for the entire region under recent Armenian control). I don't know what other sources exist for other Armenian names potentially at other times. The encyclopedic "The Dictionary of Toponymy of Armenia and Adjacent Territories" did not have an appropriate **exact** match for Melikashen. It is in Armenian, but it is also online here: http://www.nayiri.com/imagedDictionaryBrowser.jsp?dictionaryId=61&dt=HY_HY I haven't poked around much to look for other near matches. That Melik Haykaz was Armenian and had a palace that was restored in recent years is certainly true. It has incidentally been thoroughly photographed and documented prior to the handover to Azerbaijan, and I hope it will remain unharmed. --RaffiKojian (talk) 08:29, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

@RaffiKojian: Thank you very much for sharing the link to the book and for your input! The book looks really interesting, I'll make sure check it out more thoroughly. AntonSamuel (talk) 23:03, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

References

Name of Palace

@CuriousGolden:- Hello, I saw that you recently made an edit on this page adding that the name of the village palace is the “Hamza Sultan Palace.” I requested a citation for the name of the palace being Hamza Sultan, not the palace itself being in the village. As you may remember, the palace in the history section we agreed on was the Melik Haykaz Palace. As you can see in my final source this is the same thing as the “Hamza Sultan” palace ,however, there is no historical record of the palace ever being called that, the link to the page has very questionable sources. They state that the Hamza Sultan palace was built in the 18th century as opposed to the 15th century we established here. Would you please be able to provide a more reliable historical citation that this palace was ever called Hamza Sultan? During the 18th century this area was ruled by the Karabakh Khanate, I may be wrong but I don’t know of any Hamza Sultan or Sultanate in this region. I suspect the naming of the Melik Haykaz palace to be another effort of historical revisionism by the Azerbaijani government as the only sources that use that name are from them. Meanwhile, there are plenty of Armenian and Iranian historical records that mention that palace as the Melik Haykaz Palace. I believe that should be the name listed unless you are able to find a better source that this Palace was named “Hamza Sultan” historically. Cheers- TagaworShah (talk) 23:18, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

Hi, I feel like these two might be different palaces because the Hamza Sultan palace is written to be built in the 18th century, while Melik Haykaz palace was built in 15th. It'd be best if we did some research to see if they actually are the same palaces or not. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 08:39, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

@Revolution Saga: Do you have any input on the article for the Palace of Hamza Sultan? It seems that the Palace of Hamza Sultan as described by the Culture Ministry of Azerbaijan is identical to the Melikashen Melik's Palace as described by the official Tourism page of Artsakh and which is featured on this article. The historical narratives for the place differ quite a bit however. AntonSamuel (talk) 15:48, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

Yes, the palace has been attributed by Azerbaijanis to a 18th century local (Kurdish?) lord Hamza Sultan (an ancestor of the Azerbaijani notable az:Sultan bəy Sultanov) since Soviet times. However, the palace has been studied by a number of Armenian archaeologists (also since Soviet times), who almost all agree that the palace served as a residence of the Meliks of Kashatagh, dated to the late 15th century by historian Morus Hasratian. The source cited by User:TagaworShah summarizes those studies, and comments "we do not know the source based on which the Azerbaijani Encyclopaedia (vol. 6, Baku, 1982 p. 174) dates these princely quarters from 1761, and names them "Hamza Sultan".Mrdo (talk) 22:10, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

@CuriousGolden:: Hi, I did some research and it appears that the palace of Hamza Sultan is the exact same as the Melik Haykaz Palace, The Azerbaijani Ministry of Culture uses the picture of the Melik Haykaz Palace for the Hamza Sultan Palace. I was unable to find any other sources with a picture or historical reference to this Palace. Additionally, the source by Rouben Galichian directly mentions that the Hamza Sutlan palace is an alternative name given to the Melik Haykaz Palace. I think the name of the Palace should be changed to the “Melik Haykaz Palace” and we can add a “Controversy” section in both articles explaining to readers that there are conflicting claims until we can get a realized soure(e.g. something not sponsored by the Azerbaijani government) that says this structure was at one point in time called the Hamza Sultan Palace. Lmk what you think, TagaworShah (talk) 19:50, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

Hello! Yes, what you've said seems to be correct. Though as AntonSamuel had pointed out above, narratives by Armenian and Azerbaijanis seems to differ drastically. Could we perhaps wait until Revolution Saga to reply as they seem to be quite knowledgeable on these topics. If they agree too, then we can definitely change it. Cheers. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 21:31, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

Hi, I agree with changing the name to Melik Haykaz Palace for now, since there are several academic sources (although they are all Armenian) going back to Soviet times which agree on its identity. But the different narratives should be mentioned too. Although I didn't do a very thorough search, all I could find about it in Azerbaijani besides the ministry of culture info was some articles on news websites which don't go into much detail about the history. If you have access to the Azerbaijani Soviet Encyclopedia (vol. VI, Baku, 1982 p. 174) you should check there for Hamza Sultan palace and see if it cites any other sources regarding the palace. Also, I don't think it's true that Hamza Sultan is a confusion with Melik Haykaz but rather a local Kurdish lord of the lineage later known as Sultanov (same as Khosrov bey Sultanov and az:Sultan bəy Sultanov), hence why the village used to be called Sultanlar/Sultanlı/Sultankənd. This is what Azerbaijani wiki says citing "Azərbaycan toponimlərinin ensiklopedik lüğəti".Mrdo (talk) 22:52, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

@CuriousGolden:-Sounds great, we can definitely wait to hear Revolution Saga’s input. Additionally, in my research from the book “Armenian cultural monuments in the region of Karabakh” by Samvel Karapetian, it says that this village was renamed Sultankand by the Azerbaijani speaking Kurdish population after the local Meliks that used to rule the area. I find it highly probable that “Hamza Sultan” is the Azerbaijani rendition of Melik Haykaz and that 1761 was the date it was first mentioned by that name by the local Kurdish population that migrated there in the 18th century. Now that we know it’s the same palace, I find that likely. Cheers. TagaworShah (talk) 21:52, 24 January 2021 (UTC)