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{{Talk header}}
{{dyktalk|19 October|2007}}
{{ArticleHistory
{{WPAVIATION|class=start|Aircraft-project=yes}}
|action1=AFD
{{oldafdfull|date= 17 October 2007 |result= '''keep''' |votepage= Lockheed XF-104 }}
|action1date=22:11, 17 October 2007
==AFD==
|action1link=Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Lockheed XF-104
Strongly disagree with the tag or statement. This is not even the way to ask for a discussion, you do it here on the talk page. I would not like to have this article disappear or be merged and lose its uniqueness. FWIW [[User:Bzuk|Bzuk]] 22:29, 16 October 2007 (UTC).
|action1result=keep
|action1oldid=165269132


|action2=GAN
BillCJ said the same and stated that AFD nomination is a last resort. I have just been reading through the AFD process which says as much. Also noted whilst there that as far as I know this article meets all the WP guidelines and apart from needing some footnotes perhaps in places is technically correct. I was hoping to use referenced quotes from Kelly Johnson and another from Col Gabby Gabreski who has his own article on WP with regard to the type of fighter pilots wanted after Korea. There is obviously a limit to where you can go with variants but I did feel there was a genuine gap here. The XF-104 was innovative in its smaller design features, it apparently was the first aircraft to feature a centralised warning panel with master caution lights instead of random lights dotted round the cockpit and other ergonomics like an undercarriage lever shaped like a wheel to help the pilot spot the right lever. Both these features are used in the F-4 as I worked on them for many years as groundcrew. All stuff I was hoping to add (and may still be able to).
|action2date=01:17, 15 July 2011
Boundary layer control must have been very new technology then if not close to being the first.
|action2link=Talk:Lockheed XF-104/GA1
There is obviously a limit to the length an article can be and I have a feel for what that is now by looking at all the other aircraft pages. I took care to use the aviation template and follow the rules. I have all the correct reference material, just a matter of time to polish things. Thanks for your support [[User:Nimbus227|Nimbus227]] 23:02, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
|action2result=listed
|action2oldid=438979612


|dykdate=19 October 2007
*User is apparently now withdrawing the AFD nomination [[User:Nimbus227|Nimbus227]] 21:11, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
|dykentry=...that the development of the '''[[Lockheed XF-104]]''', a single-engine, high-performance, [[supersonic]] [[interceptor aircraft]] [[prototype]], earned aircraft engineer [[Clarence Johnson|Kelly Johnson]] his first [[Collier Trophy]] in 1958?
** It does not matter much now anyway. The overwelming consensus is to not delete it. -[[User:Fnlayson|Fnlayson]] 21:31, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
|currentstatus=GA
***Good news indeed, there is obviously a growing problem with AFD's (100+ per day) and looking at most of the 'one liners' posted it must be a tiresome task for whoever has to sort it out, just seems to me that something went astray with the process for the XF-104. Bridge, water, under! [[User:Nimbus227|Nimbus227]] 21:49, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
|topic=War and military
****AFD tag has been removed, just a 'suggest merge with F-104' tag remains. [[User:Nimbus227|Nimbus227]] 22:16, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
|collapse=y

}}
::I'd suggest we leave the merge tag for a few days, but I don't think it will gain a consensus to merge. Most of the comments on the AFD were for a straight keep, tho merge really was just an add-on suggestion by several editors. I don't anticipate that changing much. THere is plenty of unique content to warrent keeping this page. - [[User:BillCJ|BillCJ]] 22:26, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
{{WikiProject banner shell|class=GA|

{{WikiProject Aviation|Aircraft-project=yes}}
:::Merge tag has gone now, very happy. [[User:Nimbus227|Nimbus227]] 23:40, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
{{WikiProject Military history|class=GA||Aviation=yes|US=yes}}

}}
== "mounted slightly proud of the fuselage" ==

What does that mean? It might be good to reword that in laymans terms. In fact some review of the article for other places where things are in aviation speak might be good. But I think this is a very good article. I don't know what the Aviation Project article eval standards are but my outsider's view is that this is a "B" not a "Start". ++[[User:Larbot|Larbot]] - run by [[User:Lar]] - [[User_talk:Larbot|t]]/[[Special:Contributions/Larbot|c]] 14:29, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Good point, I changed 'proud' to 'clear' although I struggled for another word. It means that the intakes were slightly separate from the fuselage unlike a Mirage perhaps which I think uses the fuselage skin as the inner face of the inlet duct. A drawing would be easier to explain it. The word proud in this sense means 'slightly above' or 'sticking out from' where flush (as in flush rivets) would mean level with the surface. Probably terms that an engineer would recognise but maybe not a layman as you say. I will have a look through for other words or phrases like this. Thanks for your support BTW, hope to do some more work on the article. [[User:Nimbus227|Nimbus227]] 15:17, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

== Conclusions from testing ==

I don't know much about the Starfighter. But it looks like there should be some concluding remarks about the XF-104's testing. Were design changes made to the tail and/or gun following the crashes? This info will help it tie into the production F-104. Thanks. -[[User:Fnlayson|Fnlayson]] 16:59, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Good point, I can add that when I find the right citations. It certainly surpassed performance predictions, have the figures somewhere. Apart from the longer fuselage for the J-79 I don't think Lockheed changed much between the XF-104 and the YF-104 which is where the changes did start to happen like the addition of the ventral fin, then much later upwards ejecting seats and the bigger fin from the 'B' model two seater which stayed with the design to the end. These changes would be better mentioned in the main F-104 article. I don't think they investigated stalls and spinning thoroughly until the YF-104A and then found the 'pitch up'problems which is interesting i.e. why did they not test this at the prototype stage? Did Lockheed know and prefer not to mention it? Don't know about the gun, will have to read that article but I assume they improved it!!
Have done a lot of tidying just now and wiki linking of technical terms after the point made earlier. Also wary of this article becoming too long so am trying to shorten the text by removing surplus words whilst adding relevant info at the same time which has to be a good thing. Cheers [[User:Nimbus227|Nimbus227]] 17:38, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for removing the white space, was not sure quite how to do it and was tempted to fill it with text, glad I did not. [[User:Nimbus227|Nimbus227]] 17:42, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

* Thanks for adding the info. I would assume they just did not think spin & stall testing was important or simply planned to do it later. I only mentioned the cannon because of the gun problem that led to the 2nd XF-104's crash. I could see a change to decrease the risk of that happening again. -[[User:Fnlayson|Fnlayson]] 18:46, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

**Well I just typed in some positive conclusions from testing from one source but another (probably more accurate) is more negative about performance and handling, I will use that and put it right. Also just read that the gun misfire was caused by excessive heat in the gun bay, a round swelled up,jammed and exploded so not the gun's fault, learning all the time.
Another negative was the low internal fuel capacity, when they stretched the rear fuselage to fit the J-79 they also stretched the nose to get more fuel in. All good stuff. [[User:Nimbus227|Nimbus227]] 19:23, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

==Pressurisation==

The last source states that neither aircraft had pressurisation equipment to save weight and complexity which would account for the pilots wearing pressure suits at relatively low altitudes but the same source gives loss of cabin pressure as a cause of Number 2's accident? Have to get to the bottom of that contradiction somehow.[[User:Nimbus227|Nimbus227]] 19:32, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

== Notes ==

I think that it would be better if the pages (and/or chapters) in the notes were added to make verification easier. [[User:Snowmanradio|Snowman]] 23:49, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

*Good point, done. Cheers [[User:Nimbus227|Nimbus227]] 20:13, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

== Starfighter name ==

I hope this doesn't seem like a silly question, but was the name "Starfighter" given to the XF-104 from the start, or just to the F-104? --[[User:Red Sunset|Red Sunset]] 21:04, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

:To my knowldege it was from the start, but I'm not sure. We could move the page to [[XF-104 Starfighter]], but the creator may have had a reason for his, and we'll see what he says. As long as the "Stafighter" name is accurate for the XF-104, I'm OK with mving it, but OK with it staying here too. - [[User:BillCJ|BillCJ]] 21:14, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

: In the last 20-30 years popular names have been not been given out or made official until they were producing the production versions or rolled out the first one. But things were different back then (Phantom, Banshee & Voodoo were McAir names). -[[User:Fnlayson|Fnlayson]] 21:22, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

::I will try to do something on that subject which was at the back of my mind. I do have a reference somewhere about the name. It was given the designation XF-104 and the name came later, initially Star Fighter then StarFighter then Starfighter. The Lockheed factory staff magazine at the time was called the Lockheed Star. I have no reference as to who came up with the name. The photo in the infobox has 'Lockheed XF-104' on the nose, have seen photos of YF-104A with 'Starfighter' on them. The 'G' model was called Super Starfighter by Lockheed but it did not last. I'm sure there is a Lockheed logo available. Cheers [[User:Nimbus227|Nimbus227]] 21:37, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

:::Thanks guys, I know it's a small point, but it would affect some of the wording in the article. Perhaps a brief mention of the proposed names could be made? --[[User:Red Sunset|Red Sunset]] 21:52, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

::::Will definately try to add something, must be linked to 'Shooting Star', 'Starfire' etc have to read up on those type histories. I think the wording in the XF-104 article should be ok as it was not known as 'XF-104 Starfighter' AFAIK. Just found a great photo of Kelly Johnson sitting in XF-104 No 1 in my archive, might try to get permission to use it along with the mock-up photo but I've never had any response from Lockheed to past enquiries.[[User:Nimbus227|Nimbus227]] 22:15, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

The photo in the infobox does not say 'XF-104', just 'Lockheed' from a larger photo I have, sorry. It seems that this paintwork was stripped and changed to 'Lockheed XF-104' I would guess at the time the USAF started to fly it. I think for the time being I will remove reference to the Starfighter name in the text until it is clarified.[[User:Nimbus227|Nimbus227]] 22:52, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

==DYK: Lockheed XF-104==
{| class="messagebox {{#ifeq:{{{small|}}}|yes|small|standard}}-talk"
|-
|[[Image:Updated DYK query.svg|15px|Updated DYK query]]
|On [[19 October]], [[2007]], '''[[:Template:Did you know|Did you know?]]''' was updated with {{#if:{{{4|}}}|facts|a fact}} from the article{{#if:{{{4|}}}|s|}} '''''[[Lockheed XF-104]]'''''{{#if:{{{4|}}}|{{#if:{{{5|}}}|, |, and}} '''''[[{{{4}}}]]'''''
}}{{#if:{{{5|}}}|{{#if:{{{6|}}}|, |, and}} '''''[[{{{5}}}]]'''''
}}{{#if:{{{6|}}}|, and '''''[[{{{6}}}]]'''''}}, which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the [[:Template talk:Did you know|Did you know? talk page]].
|} <!-- [[{{CURRENTMONTHNAME}} {{CURRENTDAY}}]], [[{{CURRENTYEAR}}]] --> --[[User:PFHLai|PFHLai]] 10:35, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

*I copied the above entry over from my talk page, amazing how the article has gone from AFD to DYK on the WP front page in two days! Very pleased. [[User:Nimbus227|Nimbus227]] 11:22, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
::Congratulations, you did a fine job in editing and this is fully deserved. [[User:Bzuk|Bzuk]] 13:01, 19 October 2007 (UTC).
:::Thanks, hope to make it better in time. Just been reading an arbitration matter, unnecessary waste of time and effort IMO. [[User:Nimbus227|Nimbus227]] 13:08, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

==Help with possible image upload==

I wonder if experienced editors can help here, I have two photographs that would be very relevant to this article but am concerned about copyright issues. I believe they were both downloaded from a former version of Lockheed's website circa 2003 but do not appear to be available now. One photo is of the XF-104 wooden mock-up and the other is of Kelly Johnson sitting in FG-786, I would assume that they were both taken by Lockheed. I read about 'non free use' images and that there is a case for them to be allowed because new photos can not be taken (i.e. Both XF-104's destroyed and Kelly Johnson died in 1990). I would appreciate some advice on this. Many thanks [[User:Nimbus227|Nimbus227]] 15:44, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
* I'd put down Lockheed Martin's web site as the source and add time frame. Someone might could narrow it down better looking at the images. You should be able to justify fair use for them in this article (can only be used in 1 article). See [[:Image:747_flight_attendants.jpg]], [[:Image:Dc10_j017575.jpg]] and [[:Image:B-1R_concept.jpg]] for some examples. -[[User:Fnlayson|Fnlayson]] 15:56, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
**Thanks, they are good examples of the same kind of 'problem'. The worse that can happen is that the images are deleted or disallowed so perhaps I should be bold, upload them in good faith using the correct templates. [[User:Nimbus227|Nimbus227]] 17:02, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
***That is a reasonable course of action, go ahead. [[User:Bzuk|Bzuk]] 17:17, 19 October 2007 (UTC).
****Mock-up photo is uploaded and placed in to the article[[User:Nimbus227|Nimbus227]] 18:18, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

==Thanks==

Thanks to everyone who has been helping with commas, full stops (periods?!) spelling and other formatting, it is really getting there and I think getting close to the standard of other articles. Photo of Kelly Johnson sitting in FG-786 uploaded.[[User:Nimbus227|Nimbus227]] 18:57, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
==Comparable aircraft==
The inclusion of both the [[English Electric Lightning]] and [[Sukhoi Su-15]] as comparable can be debated. Whereas the early-1950s XF-104 and F-104 interceptor series could be characterized as "lightweights" and based on a single J79, the two behemoths were twin-engined and could hardly be described as in the same era as the F-104 at least in the origin of the design concepts. I would suggest the [[Dassault Mirage III]] better represents a small, interceptor of the same vintage as the XF-104. FWIW [[User:Bzuk|Bzuk]] 15:05, 21 October 2007 (UTC).

*Yes, good point. I think somone else added those entries. Will have a look, should be a few closer types to chose from. [[User:Nimbus227|Nimbus227]] 15:11, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

**Have removed the Su-15 and Lightning and added F-11, Mirage III, F-5 and SR.53. As a sidenote the Chief Project Engineer of the SR.53 was a very good friend of mine until his very recent death and an extremely interesting character worthy of a WP article of his own. [[User:Nimbus227|Nimbus227]] 15:34, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

==English/American spelling==

I don't want to cause a fuss here but I notice that the clearly British/English writing of the article is being slowly changed in to American English. The guidelines in the Manual of Style is that you should not have both forms in an article. Am I wrong?
If I was adding to an article written in American English I would abide by the same rule and use US spellings. Any comments[[User:Nimbus227|Nimbus227]] 17:25, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
::I'm not sure whether there is any convention or prescribed procedure to identify "voice" but it appears that the topic generally decides the use of American or British English. In the case of the [[Concorde]] article, there is a consistent use of British spellings and idioms, whereas the XF-104 is a candidate for American English and its variations throughout. FWIW [[User:Bzuk|Bzuk]] 17:57, 21 October 2007 (UTC).

::The usual rule that we follow on WP:AIR, as stated in the MOS, is that articles on primarily-US aircraft/topics take US spelling; artilces on primarily-British (and usually pan-European) topics take British spelling (and Commonwealth countries their variants of English); all other topics follow the rule you mentioned. It's honestly not big a deal to most of us, but to be consistent, we should go with US spelling here. That goes for me to, as an American, if I create a page on a British aircraft/topic, I would be expected to use British English; of course, I'm sure I'd have some lapses, though I was educated for a time in COmmonwealth English, so I might do better on this than some AMericans. I hope that makes sense to you, tho no one expects you to have known this before writing the page. It's just another one of those Wiki-rules in which it taks time to learn all the nuances. But, for the most part, this system works pretty well - other than the US editors (not me!) who keep changing "tyre" to "tire" on the [[Concorde]] page. Note to Concordians: The "the" here goes with "page", not "Concorde" ;) - [[User:BillCJ|BillCJ]] 18:06, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
:::ya mon, you 'merican? 'thought you a Cari-Bean! FWIW, enjoying the ARBCOM? [[User:Bzuk|Bzuk]] 18:11, 21 October 2007 (UTC).
:::*Eh, I ''grew up'' partially in the Cari-Bean, but I'm a typical American mongrel of mixed Euro descent. But no probs, as I still have Carib behavoir traits, like my love of good (and even not-so-good) arguments! :) Those being the louder, the better? Have I got a dance partner for you! [[User:Bzuk|Bzuk]] 18:23, 21 October 2007 (UTC).
::* What Bill wrote. I'm probably did the most recent US/Commonwealth spelling fix to this article. I thought it mainly used US spelling plus the fact it is a US product. -[[User:Fnlayson|Fnlayson]] 18:16, 21 October 2007 (UTC).
::::Well I'm sure this problem has cropped up before, being an Englishman living in England (but I don't drink tea!) you can understand that these spellings look very strange to me and I don't mean that in a 'snobby' way. I found the guidelines in the MOS but not in WP:AIR although it might well be there. It seems to me that if this convention is to continue then a small icon placed at the top of the article denoting which form of English it is written in would prevent confusion and extra work later on, does that seem sensible? How does it work with aircraft that are not British or American? Perhaps someone could start a clarifying policy discussion somewhere. OTOH we could use Italian English....(watching that one with interest) [[User:Nimbus227|Nimbus227]] 18:27, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
::*You know that's a very good idea. I often forget whether there is an Americanism in play and that seems a sensible approach to have an icon or other discrete notation or tag that quickly identifies the use of language. You sure you're British? English? UKish? Great Britainish? FWIW, Italyish? don't get me started on that issue! BTW, I is a Canajan so I have the worst of all US/Brit speak rolled up in one. [:¬∆ [[User:Bzuk|Bzuk]] 18:32, 21 October 2007 (UTC).
:* I like the icon/tag idea as well. My schooling was all US spelling and my spelling is often poor. Interesting that a lot of aviation books I have are published by non-US publishers and use Commonwealth spelling. No big deal to me, except for 'aeroplane'. ;) -[[User:Fnlayson|Fnlayson]] 18:42, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
:::Canadian, Eh?!! I am definately English, if you note the heading 'pressurisation' is spelt 'correctly' above!!!
Hey, no big deal but since we are striving for a standard we should at least know what that standard is. Aeroplane and aerodrome are not used much here nowadays, I use aircraft and airfield usually. Cheers [[User:Nimbus227|Nimbus227]] 18:45, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
::::Spelt? Amongst, betwixt all the verbiage, diatribe of the British anachronisms, colloquialisms and idioms, I have tried to use modern conventional usage for word choices, at least fortnightly or is that forthrightly? Irregardless or regardless! Nonetheless! [:¬∆ [[User:Bzuk|Bzuk]] 18:52, 21 October 2007 (UTC).
:I say chaps, I also agree that the icon/tag is a spiffing idea, and that the XF-104 article should employ American-English spelling; however, one simply cannot help using the "Queen's English" don't you know. After all, we invented the language. (If that doesn't get a reaction nothing will!) I concur with Nimbus regarding the use of "aircraft" (NOT "aircrafts" if you know what I mean) instead of "aeroplane", and especially disagree with the use of "plane" which has additional meanings. As a Canajan Bill, do you not have a little Franglais to contribute with? --[[User:Red Sunset|Red Sunset]] 22:32, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
::I'll through this in before we get accused of going off topic: We Americans have no problem with the British having "invented" the English language. In fact, you've re-inveneted in numerous times in the last 1500 years, and seem to berate us Americans because we haven't kept up with the latest reinventions, and have done some reinvetning of our own! And thos poor Canadians are caught between their parent and older sibling, with their cousins in Quebec causing even more trouble by insisting on French names for even ''Latin'' words. (Last time I looked, ''Nova Scotia'' was not an English word, yet it has a French translation, ''Nouvelle-Écosse'' on their their license plates, but not the corresponding English translation ''New Scotland''. Poor Canadians indeed! - [[User:BillCJ|BillCJ]] 23:06, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
:::At this juncture, in assigning points, BillBC and Jefson has accurately fractured Mericanisms, while Robset and Nimbn*tz has smooshed Britspeak, I'm gonnahavetacallon the Great MAurY to balance the obviously misinformed neighbours abroad as well as broad neighbours below (I've seen your SUVs, youse guys must all weigh in at Moby Dick waistlines) to restore the God-given rights of Canadjans to butcher language. [: ¬p| [[User:Bzuk|Bzuk]] 00:11, 22 October 2007 (UTC).

::::Jeff and Ah both live in the Mid-South, so Ah'm sure we're quaht capable of butcherin' the language to a degree that would make any Englishman pull his hair out faster 'an a scalded dog fleein' a chiken coop! - [[User:BillCJ|BillCJ]] 00:18, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
:::::Yeah, but you got 200 words for "snow"? [:¬∆ [[User:Bzuk|Bzuk]] 00:24, 22 October 2007 (UTC).

::::No, just 200 words for rain. ;) Btw, we only have one word for snow down here: Flurries. PS. I'll offer to host this off-subject diversion on my talk page. A little light-hearted fun is good for helping to deal with Wiki-stress, esp in the middle of an ARBCOM! - [[User:BillCJ|BillCJ]] 00:29, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
::::::Seeya der! FWIW, I yam startinga lisst ov "words to live by!" [[User:Bzuk|Bzuk]] 00:59, 22 October 2007 (UTC).

Latest revision as of 15:42, 6 February 2024

Good articleLockheed XF-104 Starfighter has been listed as one of the Warfare good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Did You Know Article milestones
DateProcessResult
October 17, 2007Articles for deletionKept
July 15, 2011Good article nomineeListed
Did You Know A fact from this article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "Did you know?" column on October 19, 2007.
The text of the entry was: Did you know ...that the development of the Lockheed XF-104, a single-engine, high-performance, supersonic interceptor aircraft prototype, earned aircraft engineer Kelly Johnson his first Collier Trophy in 1958?
Current status: Good article
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Lockheed_XF-104_Starfighter&oldid=1204174787"