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Istrian-Dalmatian exodus refers to the post-World War II expulsion and departure

Controversial definition. It started in 1943. Xx236 (talk) 08:07, 2 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Lede and text does not reflect the picture given by the quotes in the end

The quotes in the end all explicitly indicate that there was no deliberate policy of ethnic cleansing by the Yugoslavs up until the Soviet-Yugoslav split made left-wing Italians ideologically suspicious as supporters of the USSR (and even then there was no overt expulsion). This aspect is totally ignored both in the lede and in the main narrative of the article, which, rather, more or less paints a picture of a consistent programme of ethnic cleansing embedded in the Yugoslav communists' anti-fascist resistance as well as in their subsequent government policies.--178.249.169.67 (talk) 05:55, 10 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

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Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 23:38, 14 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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+== Istrian-Dalmatian exodus refers to the post-World War II expulsion and departure ==
-==Sentence removed in the lead==
-It cannot be stated that the exodus had place from territories belonging to Yugoslavia. Large movements of population (accounting to more than a third of the total exiles) had place from Zara, Fiume and Pola (I am using thre Italian toponyms with reason, because those territories were still within the borders of Italy when those events had place) before 1947 so before the Treaty of Paris.
-This fact is clearly explained in the rest of article. The current formulation suggest a fact that is historically wrong, i.e. that the exodus was a fact involving since the beginning Yugoslav citizens from Yugoslav land. [[User:Silvio1973|Silvio1973]] ([[User talk:Silvio1973|talk]]) 08:37, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
-:You're right.. even after 1947 much of the exodus took place from Zone B of the Free Territory of Trieste. For the purposes of the lead, it should rather be said that the events took place "as the area passed to Yugoslavia". <font face="Eras Bold ITC">-- [[User:Director|<span style="color:#353535">Director</span>]] <span style="color:#464646">([[User talk:Director|<span style="color:#464646">talk</span>]])</span></font> 17:13, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
-::From my perspective, the modification you suggest can have place. --[[User:Silvio1973|Silvio1973]] ([[User talk:Silvio1973|talk]]) 09:09, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
+Controversial definition. It started in 1943. [[User:Xx236|Xx236]] ([[User talk:Xx236|talk]]) 08:07, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
-==Period of the exodus==
-Expanded, as well brief reference to the foibe entered in the lead. Discussion about those modifications welcome.--[[User:Silvio1973|Silvio1973]] ([[User talk:Silvio1973|talk]]) 16:18, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
-@Director, I do not understand why you consider the section describing the exodus from Zadar as POV. The insertion is very well sourced. Can you list the reasons of your disagreement about the insertion of the followig section of text?
+== Lede and text does not reflect the picture given by the quotes in the end ==
-:''The first city to see a massive departure of ethnic Italians was Zadar. Between November 1943 and Zadar was [[Bombing of Zadar in World War II|bombed]] by the Allies, with serious civilian casualties (fatalities recorded range from under 1,000 to as many ad 4,000 of over 20,000 city's inhabitants). Many died in the carpet bombings, and many landmarks and centuries old works of art were destroyed. A significant number of civilians fled the city. In late October 1944 the German army and most of the Italian civilian administration abandoned the city.{{sfn|Begonja|2005|p=72}} On October 31, 1944, the [[Yugoslav Partisans|Partisans]] seized the city, until then a part of Mussolini's [[Italian Social Republic]]. At the start of [[World War II]], Zadar had a population of 24,000 and, by the end of 1944, this had decreased to 6,000.{{sfn|Begonja|2005|p=72}} Formally, the city remained under Italian sovereignty until September 15, 1947<ref name="criminal law">{{cite book|title=International Criminal Law Deskbook|editor=Grant, John P.; J. Craig Barker|url=http://books.google.be/books?id=SzwrG74gwzUC&pg=PA130&lpg=PA130&dq=treaty+of+peace+with+italy+1947|publisher=Cavendish Publishing|place=Routledge|year=2006|page=130}}</ref> ([[Paris Peace Treaties, 1947|Paris Peace Treaties]]) but by that date the exodus from the city had been already almost total.'' --[[User:Silvio1973|Silvio1973]] ([[User talk:Silvio1973|talk]]) 09:07, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
+The quotes in the end all explicitly indicate that there was no deliberate policy of ''ethnic'' cleansing by the Yugoslavs up until the Soviet-Yugoslav split made left-wing Italians ''ideologically'' suspicious as supporters of the USSR (and even then there was no overt expulsion). This aspect is totally ignored both in the lede and in the main narrative of the article, which, rather, more or less paints a picture of a consistent programme of ethnic cleansing embedded in the Yugoslav communists' anti-fascist resistance as well as in their subsequent government policies.--[[Special:Contributions/178.249.169.67|178.249.169.67]] ([[User talk:178.249.169.67|talk]]) 05:55, 10 February 2022 (UTC)
-==Slavs under Italian Fascist rule==
-# This section is the verbatim copy of the article Italianisation. Indeed it's the copy of an old version of it and contains a lot of material which was challanged and removed because unsourced. Also, exactly as with the [[Foibe killings]], the section Slavs under Italian Fascist rule should be shortened and directed to the main article, which is [[Italianization]]. I suggest to copy from the current version of Italianisation, agree on a shorter version of it and redirect to the main article. --[[User:Silvio1973|Silvio1973]] ([[User talk:Silvio1973|talk]]) 08:47, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
-# There is no discussion around the fact that the Fascism acted an intense policy of Italianisation in Istria. On the other hand this policy did not start before 1922, opposely to what it is affirmed in the article. [[User:Director|Director]], I am fine in keeping things as they are but I need to see sources. Can you provide? --[[User:Silvio1973|Silvio1973]] ([[User talk:Silvio1973|talk]]) 08:55, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
-:::As has been explained to your on ''numerous'' previous occasions:
-:::# The background to these events is part of this article's scope (no matter how much you appear to dislike said background). I disagree that it needs "shortening", in fact it probably needs expanding. Whether its repeated somewhere else (verbatim or otherwise) is none of our concern in terms of writing this article.
-::::::It is essential to describe the policy of Italianisation to understand the background of the events. No discussion about that. Still, there is an issue of sourcing of several sections. Those unsourced sections were removed from the main article so I do not understand why should be reinstated here. [[User:Silvio1973|Silvio1973]] ([[User talk:Silvio1973|talk]]) 10:41, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
-:::# The text does not state Italianisation took place before 1922.
-::::::It does, as the article says: ''Even during the brief preliminary period of occupation (1918–1920) Italy had begun a policy of assimilation of Croats and Slovenes.'' This is historically incorrect and what is most important it is unsourced. [[User:Silvio1973|Silvio1973]] ([[User talk:Silvio1973|talk]]) 10:41, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
-:::<font face="Eras Bold ITC">-- [[User:Director|<span style="color:#353535">Director</span>]] <span style="color:#464646">([[User talk:Director|<span style="color:#464646">talk</span>]])</span></font> 10:33, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
-:::::Do not insert replies ''into'' my posts, please.
-:::::I'm waiting for someone to reply to the 3O you say you requested. As I said before, I'm not prepared to discuss one-on-one with you: I find it a waste of time. As regards Italianization prior to Mussolini, I've done some cursory research and it appears to ''have'' actually occurred, albeit on a smaller scale (forced Italianization of Croatian and Slovene surnames [https://books.google.hr/books?id=xwxy5M8Q-owC&pg=PA84&dq=italianization+1919&hl=en&sa=X&ei=N-cUVZHqDdXcauz-gqAH&ved=0CD0Q6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=italianization%201919&f=false]). Its not a feature only of the Fascist regime.
+== A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion ==
-:::::I've rolled back your non-consensus edits one last time. You attempted these changes before and you knew they are opposed. I hope you will not continue with the same pattern ("blah blah these edits must go in") that just earned you sanctions only a couple days ago. <font face="Eras Bold ITC">-- [[User:Director|<span style="color:#353535">Director</span>]] <span style="color:#464646">([[User talk:Director|<span style="color:#464646">talk</span>]])</span></font> 05:19, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
+The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
+* [[commons:File:Serenissima.svg|Serenissima.svg]]<!-- COMMONSBOT: discussion | 2023-02-14T23:38:30.961692 | Serenissima.svg -->
+Participate in the deletion discussion at the [[commons:Commons:Deletion requests/File:Serenissima.svg|nomination page]]. —[[User:Community Tech bot|Community Tech bot]] ([[User talk:Community Tech bot|talk]]) 23:38, 14 February 2023 (UTC)