Talk:Dragon Ball (manga): Difference between revisions
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== Dragon ball Super is not written by Toriyama == |
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== Copy-editing queries == |
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Dragon ball Super is not written by Toriyama. Toriyama simply gives plot points or rejects them. [[User:WillsEdtior777|WillsEdtior777]] ([[User talk:WillsEdtior777|talk]]) 15:17, 11 July 2022 (UTC) |
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I've made a start on the lead, but I'll wait to see what you think before I do any more. One query that I have at this point: |
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*"had strong comedic aspects early in its run": (I reworded this in the copy-edit to a comedy focus) This is in the lead but does not really come across in the "Writing" section, which is where it should really be placed. [[User:Sarastro1|Sarastro1]] ([[User talk:Sarastro1|talk]]) 20:13, 22 August 2017 (UTC) |
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:That part comes from the Critical reception section. Jason Thompson commented that Dragon Ball "turns from a gag/adventure manga to a nearly-pure fighting manga" and the comments by James S. Yadao right after that say something similar. [[User:Xfansd|Xfansd]] ([[User talk:Xfansd|talk]]) 21:38, 26 August 2017 (UTC) |
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*The above answer does not really address my point that it should say something about this in the writing section. |
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*Before I get into the production section, I'd appreciate it if someone could look at the points I made in the FAC; some of them need to be addressed before any further copy-editing is done. [[User:Sarastro1|Sarastro1]] ([[User talk:Sarastro1|talk]]) 19:55, 31 August 2017 (UTC) |
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:*{{Ping|Sarastro1}} '''Done''' --<span style="text-shadow:#ABE 3px 3px 2px; font-family:Brush Script MT; font-color: #000333"><big>[[User talk:1989|1989]]</big></span> 22:18, 4 September 2017 (UTC) |
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*I've reworked the first paragraph of production, but I think we need a little more precision on time. I've changed the first sentence to "In 1980, Akira Toriyama had created the popular manga Dr. Slump; by 1983, he wanted to end the series but his publisher Shueisha would only allow him to do so if he agreed to produce another manga for them", but I've plucked the first date from the Dr Slump page so you need to check that the source supports that date; if not, we need another source. Also, I've basically made up the 1983 date from what comes in the rest of the paragraph, but we certainly need to know when it was that he wanted to end the series, and we need a source that supports it. [[User:Sarastro1|Sarastro1]] ([[User talk:Sarastro1|talk]]) 22:23, 6 September 2017 (UTC) |
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::The Slump article uses the same two citations that this one does. Torishima says in citation number four on this page that Toriyama wanted to end it "after six months or so," that would make it 1980, the same year he started it. In citation number one Toriyama says he was told he could end it if he started his next work in "three months," which is exactly what he did. Slump ended in September 1984 and Dragon Ball began in December 1984, that's three months. While those specific dates are not given in citation number one, Dragon Ball's start date and Slump's end date are both sourced in their articles. 1983 needs to be removed and what follows I think should be changed to something like "if he agreed to produce another manga for them ''shortly after''," because his agreeing to end a popular series and start a new one within only three months is unusual and the whole point that makes it interesting. [[User:Xfansd|Xfansd]] ([[User talk:Xfansd|talk]]) 16:29, 9 September 2017 (UTC) |
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== Superhero == |
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*Just a note to say that I haven't forgotten this, and hope to get a lot more done this weekend. [[User:Sarastro1|Sarastro1]] ([[User talk:Sarastro1|talk]]) 22:30, 21 September 2017 (UTC) |
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''Dragon Ball'' should also be labeled as a "superhero" series (even in the genre section) since Goku and his friends have superpowers and fight to protect the Earth from (mostly) aliens. [[User:MrWii000|MrWii000]] ([[User talk:MrWii000|talk]]) 19:51, 29 July 2022 (UTC) |
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:::*The other obvious question is what he was doing for those three years until he started work on Dragon Boy? Was he just sitting and working discontentedly? Something is off about the time frame there. I'm also dubious about saying "shortly after" given that the time frame for this whole thing is years, not months. Also, if he was experimenting on other stories while Slump was ongoing, that doesn't quite work either. As I say, the timeframe needs work. [[User:Sarastro1|Sarastro1]] ([[User talk:Sarastro1|talk]]) 08:48, 23 September 2017 (UTC) |
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::::During the years he was serializing Slump, he was creating one-shots on the side. The idea being that if a one-shot was well-received by readers, it could be developed into a serial. But Shueisha wasn't going to just let him stop Slump without a new serial ready to start in its place. It wasn't "years" tho. It was a year if you're counting when the one-shot Dragon Boy was published to when Dragon Ball started, but the serial Slump ended and its replacement serial DB started three months later. That is "shortly after." [[User:Xfansd|Xfansd]] ([[User talk:Xfansd|talk]]) 16:54, 23 September 2017 (UTC) |
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== A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion == |
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*"Since it was serialized in a ''shōnen'' magazine, Toriyama added the idea of the Dragon Balls to give the characters a physical activity of gathering something.": I'm still struggling with this one. What is the connection between its serialisation in a shōnen magazine, and the need for a physical activity of gathering something? Do we mean that it needed some action, or a quest-like aspect, to appeal to its audience? Also, it might be worth contrasting this theme of Dragon Ball with the themes of Journey to the West, even if it's just a sentence or two comparing them. He based it on the novel, but how? In what ways? [[User:Sarastro1|Sarastro1]] ([[User talk:Sarastro1|talk]]) 08:52, 23 September 2017 (UTC) |
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The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion: |
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:It originally said "Since it was serialized in a shōnen magazine, Toriyama added the idea of the Dragon Balls to give it a game-like activity of gathering something, without thinking of what the characters would wish for." So yes, it was to appeal to its child audience. It already says how the characters were loosely modeled on those of Journey to the West. I can add something like Toriyama wanted it to be like Journey to the West with its "setting always changing, different enemies popping up, different locations." That would be taken from citation number 9. It was also chosen because it is in the public domain and its Chinese setting is different from Slump's US West Coast feel, China was not a popular topic in manga at the time and would make it unique. Taken from citation one. [[User:Xfansd|Xfansd]] ([[User talk:Xfansd|talk]]) 16:54, 23 September 2017 (UTC) |
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* [[commons:File:Dragonball (4-Star).svg|Dragonball (4-Star).svg]]<!-- COMMONSBOT: discussion | 2022-11-29T01:36:54.215570 | Dragonball (4-Star).svg --> |
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Participate in the deletion discussion at the [[commons:Commons:Deletion requests/File:Dragonball (4-Star).svg|nomination page]]. —[[User:Community Tech bot|Community Tech bot]] ([[User talk:Community Tech bot|talk]]) 01:37, 29 November 2022 (UTC) |
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== Sales table == |
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*"Although he suspected the fighting genre would appeal more to its shōnen audience, Toriyama tried to stick to the Journey to the West adventure aspect by avoiding that in the beginning, which he enjoyed": This probably fits more into the section above, when we are discussing the writing. But again, we need to spell out how it compares to Journey to the West. As written, this doesn't quite make sense, and without seeing the sources, I'm not quite sure how to re-write it. [[User:Sarastro1|Sarastro1]] ([[User talk:Sarastro1|talk]]) 08:55, 23 September 2017 (UTC) |
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:I initially had "Although he suspected battles would appeal more to its shōnen audience, Toriyama tried to stick to the Journey to the West adventure aspect which he himself enjoyed. It was only after he became tired of Torishima nagging about its popularity, that Toriyama gave in and drew more battles with the first shown Tenkaichi Budōkai." Journey to the West follows the "pilgrimage of the Tang dynasty Buddhist monk Xuanzang who traveled to the Western Regions, that is, Central Asia and India, to obtain Buddhist sacred texts." The beginning of Dragon Ball has Goku and Bulma traveling to collect the Dragon Balls, then it turns to fighting with the tournament, then goes back to the traveling and collecting with Red Ribbon Army arc, before Toriyama gave up on the "adventure" aspect and gave in to the fighting. So the "Journey to the West adventure aspect" refers to the traveling. |
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I tried to fix various references used in the sales table, but I gave up trying. Several figures have been outdated for many years. Various references are just [[WP:USERG]] sites and other questionable ones, and some of them don't even confirm the figures featured in the table. The table is very poorly structured and I think that it would be better to remove it altogether from the article. [[User:Xexerss|Xexerss]] ([[User talk:Xexerss|talk]]) 11:01, 12 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:I wrote almost the whole article, 1989 came in and changed it in order to get a GA and FA, and made some edits I don't agree with. Most of which seem to only be a result of them not being familiar with the sources. I tried to stick to what the sources say, so I would suggest looking at this older revision {{oldid|Dragon Ball (manga)|785082832|Dragon Ball (manga)}}. I'm not really invested in getting this to FA, I'm mostly just here to make sure stuff doesn't get screwed up. [[User:Xfansd|Xfansd]] ([[User talk:Xfansd|talk]]) 16:54, 23 September 2017 (UTC) |
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:I'm OK with removing the table entirely. Definitely worth noting that the user who originally added it, [[User:Maestro2016]], has been banned for being a sockpuppet of a user banned for often misinterpreting sales, film grosses and the like. [[User:Xfansd|Xfansd]] ([[User talk:Xfansd|talk]]) 21:49, 12 December 2023 (UTC) |
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== Total volumes sold == |
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*Hmm. I've no particular interest in getting involved in a dispute; before nominating for FA, the primary contributors should be consulted. Also, I've no particular interest in having to fight for every question and edit. If 1989 and Xfansd come to some sort of agreement, please let me know if you wish me to continue. A final point from a FA viewpoint: the nominator should be able to verify questions from the sources, and be able access the sources for verification purposes. If I were to continue, I would require verification from the sources for some of the questions I'm asking. (If this is nominated again, I will recuse as FAC coordinator) [[User:Sarastro1|Sarastro1]] ([[User talk:Sarastro1|talk]]) 18:35, 23 September 2017 (UTC) |
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:There's no dispute. 1989 edited what GA and FA reviewers suggested, and I tweaked any edits that I felt changed to much from what was in the sources. I linked to an old revision as I naturally feel it works better and could answer some future questions you might come to, in the hope it would save time. But I agree 1989 nominated it and asked you to do this, so they should be commenting here more. [[User:Xfansd|Xfansd]] ([[User talk:Xfansd|talk]]) 19:27, 23 September 2017 (UTC) |
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:: I will, but not this instant. I don't know the information from the offline sources, so I am unable to comment on that. Since you added the information from the offline sources, you will have to address their concerns with that text. -- <span style="text-shadow:#ABE 3px 3px 2px; font-family:Brush Script MT; font-color: #000333"><big>[[User talk:1989|1989]]</big></span> 00:00, 25 September 2017 (UTC) |
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The change has to be made to the total number of volumes sold. The current number of 260 million is unchanged for a few years now. Below are some sources that state the number being 300 million: |
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https://comicbook.com/anime/news/dragon-ball-super-manga-sales-record/ |
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Pman447 here, i'm sorry if this is in the wrong section as i'm completely new to editing on wikipedia, but i'll get to the point. |
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*i just noticed that in the section that shows tankōbon sales for dragon ball includes Denmark and Sweden, but not Norway. I unfortunately do not have much information other than that it is translated to norwegian and published in full in my country. If someone more experienced in working with wikipedia articles could assist me by adding the information i would be able to take a look at my volumes i could at the very least find out who published it. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Pman447|Pman447]] ([[User talk:Pman447#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Pman447|contribs]]) 19:10, 25 June 2020 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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https://twitter.com/WSJ_manga/status/1425028721887612929 |
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== Comicalités source == |
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https://booksofbrilliance.com/2023/01/25/the-best-selling-manga-of-all-time/ |
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I'd like to discuss {{ping|FredD}}'s edit where they added: "Although the Saiyans arc borrows some elements from Superman, the influence of American comics was never important in Dragon Ball, and Goku remains more a sportsman than an avenger or vigilante throughout the manga." to the Production section. First I'm assuming the cited source [https://journals.openedition.org/comicalites/3194 1] is a website that republishes papers that were first published in various academic journals? In this case, an English translation of one written by Frédéric Ducarme from the French ''Comicalités''? Curiously, there is no listed translator. |
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Of course listing influences and inspirations is important and useful. But I am always on the watch for instances where "reliable" writers/critics write a piece and state confidently "x was influenced by y", "x shows clear inspiration from y" and the like without citing a source and then that gets added to Wikipedia as is and treated as a straight fact. That is what FredD is doing here. The source says "Other particular influences in Dragon Ball include Bruce Lee’s and Jackie Chan’s movies, but also Peter Pan (for the first half of the manga) and Superman (for the second half)." but provides no citations for the claim. We have several sources where Toriyama talks about Bruce Lee and Jackie Chan movies as an influence on Dragon Ball, so no problems there. But in 36 years, never has Toriyama, nor anyone else associated with the franchise, cited Peter Pan or Superman. If this paper had said "Toriyama once told a colleague that he was influenced by Superman," then adding something like "Ducarme wrote that Toriyama once told a colleague that he was influenced by Superman" would be acceptable. But writing simply "Dragon Ball was influenced by Superman" is misleading and wrong. |
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Additionally, if you sum the numbers of sold volumes from individual countries, you get pass 300 million. [[User:Luka316|Luka316]] ([[User talk:Luka316|talk]]) 12:15, 12 December 2023 (UTC) |
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The paper also states "Dragon Ball, whose scenario borrows elements from Superman," and this claim does have a citation; "In manga n° 17, we learn that the hero was sent from another planet while a baby, and belongs to a now-extinct super-strong alien people." Which makes it clear that here, and let's include the previously mentioned quote, Ducarme is simply making a comparison to Superman based on what happens in the story. Thus we can not morph it into the edit that FredD made, which treats the influence as fact instead of opinion. Their edit also makes it seem like other "American comics" were an influence, however no others are mentioned in the paper. |
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:The first two are referring to Torishima's statement that is already directly cited the article (WSJ News should not be cited because it is [[WP:USERG]]). Books of Brilliance is [[WP:SELFPUBLISHED]] blog. I reiterate the problem with the table and its awful structure, which in several cases inflates the numbers and ultimately do not add up to the alleged estimated worldwide figure. [[User:Xexerss|Xexerss]] ([[User talk:Xexerss|talk]]) 13:02, 12 December 2023 (UTC) |
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To conclude, I'd like to clarify that I'm not arguing against adding anything from the source, just that it be worded correctly and put in its appropriate place, the Reception section. I just went and made an edit like this. [[User:Xfansd|Xfansd]] ([[User talk:Xfansd|talk]]) 03:12, 20 September 2020 (UTC) |
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:Thanks for this. The borrowing from Superman is more than obvious (superpowerful baby sent alone in a small capsule to Earth while his planet explodes, etc), so people may think that American comics are a major influence. What I wanted to say by using this source is that this influence is only a one-time thing, and as said in the paper, Goku is not an avenger in the spirit of American superheroes, despite superficial resemblance. I think that this comparison is important. I'm open to any insight on this regard. Cheers, [[User:FredD|FredD]] ([[User talk:FredD|talk]]) 09:53, 20 September 2020 (UTC) |
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== publication date == |
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[[WP:A&M/ORS]] mentions that retailers are considered reliable sources for release dates. Do tweets count? If so [https://twitter.com/FUNimation/status/535534283654725632 this tweet] from Funimation can verify that the initial publication date for Dragon Ball was November 20th, rather than December 3rd. It seems to be in line with [[WP:TWITTER]] but I'm not super well-versed in these disputes. [[User:Shakuran13|Shakuran13]] ([[User talk:Shakuran13|talk]]) 10:23, 28 March 2021 (UTC) |
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:Let's just hypothetically say it is reliable and can be used to change the start date, what do you suggest be done with the end date? Cause we're not gonna add that new start date and keep the current end date. Find a reliable source for the other end date that you obviously want to add and you'll have my support for the change, but I'm not gonna support mismatching them. [[User:Xfansd|Xfansd]] ([[User talk:Xfansd|talk]]) 21:09, 31 March 2021 (UTC) |
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== Overall sales == |
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Given that most japanese sources give 260M sales overseas for Dragon Ball manga (even Toei said it in an article recently, https://corp.toei-anim.co.jp/en/press/press-6953497287618550869.html), and that we don't have a reliable source for the Korean sales (the one we have is down), I think it is pretty confident to measure the sales as 260M worldwide. [[User:Cracker-Kun|Cracker-Kun]] ([[User talk:Cracker-Kun|talk]]) 12:57, 17 May 2021 (UTC) |
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== Dragon Ball Circulation problem. == |
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Dragon Ball Sales exceed 300. by just simply counting the overseas it is much more then officially announced. For example here are the current numbers and sources |
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Asia: |
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Japan: 160M |
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South Korea 20 million copies, [http://m.munhwa.com/mnews/view.html?no=2010011101032024152004 Source] |
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China 10 million copies, [https://ent.sina.cn/star/jp_kr/2013-03-29/detail-iavxeafr9305957.d.html?from=wap Source] |
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Taiwan 10M, [https://tw.appledaily.com/lifestyle/20090228/55H7GJJUG5HLMRXTJUIAVEWAY4/ Source] |
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Hong Kong 8.4M,[https://ent.sina.cn/review/media/2009-03-13/detail-iawzunex7352648.d.html Source] |
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Total of Asia sales:208.4M |
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Europe/South america: |
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France 35 million copies,[https://region-aura.latribune.fr/territoire/culture/2019-05-02/dans-l-edition-le-numerique-est-un-flop-total-jacques-glenat-editions-glenat-815337.html Source] |
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[https://mobile.twitter.com/glenat_manga/status/847354528760348673 Source2] |
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Brazil 34 million,[https://escolazion.com/blogz/animes-e-mangas-10-curiosidades/ Source] |
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Spain 20 million ,[http://kyoshin.net/aide/c85/04.html Source] [https://www.excite.co.jp/news/article/Getnews_2981922/ Source2] |
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Italy 16 million,[https://it.finance.yahoo.com/notizie/editori-indipendenti-il-primo-per-113853958.html?guccounter=1& Source] |
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Germany 8 million,[https://www.carlsen.de/reihe/dragon-ball Source] |
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Total EU/SA: 113M |
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Total combined:321.4M at the very least. this is not accounting for USA/SEA countries.although the US Copies are most likely counted since Viz is owned by shueisha. |
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At the time of the announcement of Dragon Ball Kai at the Tokyo International Anime Fair 2009 it has been announced it reached 350M there already. [http://dl5.getuploader.com/g/dbzuploda/47/dbzuploda_47.jpg Source] [http://blog.livedoor.jp/toriyamanews/archives/34723566.html Source2] and the source is shueisha themselves. Some japanese people emailed toei and confirmed that Shueisha number is correct (Which was the source at the Kai announcement) |
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Toei said in the announcement of the movie that it has 260M, it is the official figure. [[User:Cracker-Kun|Cracker-Kun]] ([[User talk:Cracker-Kun|talk]]) 00:37, 18 August 2021 (UTC) |
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== Dragon Ball total circulation is 260 million copies. == |
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Until right now in this date, there are no official japanese sources or any japanese reliable source announcing that the total worldwide circulation of Dragon Ball is 300 million copies. So far, these are the latest japanese articles about the Dragon ball (promoting the film), and it says 260 million instead of 300 million.: https://news.yahoo.co.jp/articles/67d6762c95b6729a8e59ad271c86b3ce28418321 https://mantan-web.jp/amp/article/20220307dog00m200052000c.html |
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As you can see, until right now, the total circulation is still in 260 million copies. Even the japanese wikipedia, it also said that it is 260 million copies. https://ja.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%83%89%E3%83%A9%E3%82%B4%E3%83%B3%E3%83%9C%E3%83%BC%E3%83%AB |
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When it comes to "circulation", japanese official release is still the most reliable source. You can wait on the official announcement from Shuiesha or Toei animation to change the circulation in this page. [[User:Yujoong|Selenne]] ([[User talk:Yujoong|talk]]) 02:52, 18 March 2022 (UTC) |
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Dragon ball Super is not written by Toriyama
[edit]Dragon ball Super is not written by Toriyama. Toriyama simply gives plot points or rejects them. WillsEdtior777 (talk) 15:17, 11 July 2022 (UTC)
Superhero
[edit]Dragon Ball should also be labeled as a "superhero" series (even in the genre section) since Goku and his friends have superpowers and fight to protect the Earth from (mostly) aliens. MrWii000 (talk) 19:51, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
[edit]The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
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Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 01:37, 29 November 2022 (UTC)
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Sales table
[edit]I tried to fix various references used in the sales table, but I gave up trying. Several figures have been outdated for many years. Various references are just WP:USERG sites and other questionable ones, and some of them don't even confirm the figures featured in the table. The table is very poorly structured and I think that it would be better to remove it altogether from the article. Xexerss (talk) 11:01, 12 December 2023 (UTC)
- I'm OK with removing the table entirely. Definitely worth noting that the user who originally added it, User:Maestro2016, has been banned for being a sockpuppet of a user banned for often misinterpreting sales, film grosses and the like. Xfansd (talk) 21:49, 12 December 2023 (UTC)
Total volumes sold
[edit]The change has to be made to the total number of volumes sold. The current number of 260 million is unchanged for a few years now. Below are some sources that state the number being 300 million:
https://comicbook.com/anime/news/dragon-ball-super-manga-sales-record/
https://twitter.com/WSJ_manga/status/1425028721887612929
https://booksofbrilliance.com/2023/01/25/the-best-selling-manga-of-all-time/
Additionally, if you sum the numbers of sold volumes from individual countries, you get pass 300 million. Luka316 (talk) 12:15, 12 December 2023 (UTC)
- The first two are referring to Torishima's statement that is already directly cited the article (WSJ News should not be cited because it is WP:USERG). Books of Brilliance is WP:SELFPUBLISHED blog. I reiterate the problem with the table and its awful structure, which in several cases inflates the numbers and ultimately do not add up to the alleged estimated worldwide figure. Xexerss (talk) 13:02, 12 December 2023 (UTC)