Talk:German articles

what is the deal with the order of the prepositions?

The traditional order seems to be der/die/das as far as I recall, and the charts on this page do them in the order der/das/die. For ease of memorization it helps to keep the order the same. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.228.119.57 (talk) 05:28, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

Quite right. This is something I mean to deal with when I have a bit more time. Anyone else who knows tables go ahead. Blythwood (talk) 23:34, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

By prepositions, do you mean the articles? I'm not aware of any predefined order, where is that taught? I decided to order them as der - das - die (f) - die (pl) because this way you can see that the pairs marculine/neuter and feminine/plural tend to be similar, as can be seen in this pic which I think is very helpful (at least it was for me).

--Fauban 09:24, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

FWIW, I spent some of my childhood in Germany and the first two lines of the theme tune for SesamStraße (Sesame Street) go "Der, Die, Das; Wer? Wie? Was?", which is the three singular definite articles in the nominative case, followed by the questions "Who?" "How?" and "What?" It's the order in which German children are taught the genders and pretty much any text book or language course you could look at will also list them as "Der, Die, Das".

You can read the lyrics to the theme tune here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sesamstra%C3%9Fe

"Der, die, das (wer, wie, was – wieso, weshalb, warum – wer nicht fragt, bleibt dumm!)"

Traditional ordering is "masculine - feminine - neuter - plural" and "nominative - genitive - dative - accusative" (cf. German "1. Fall - 2. Fall - 3. Fall - 4. Fall"). -91.63.241.84 (talk) 10:49, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

 Done: Resolved in November 2022 – DBaK (talk) 15:39, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

Images

• 
  Black-and-white SVG
• 
  Colored PNG
• 
  Indefinite article PNG

@Parcly Taxel: You disagree with the IP 79.190.250.106 and with Fauban on which image of the definite articles should be used, and prefer the black-and-white SVG over the colored PNG. Personally, I think that the colored one is better, because it matches the indefinite article PNG. No more edit war; let's have a discussion. Do you prefer the black-and-white one for any reason besides it being an SVG? If an SVG is needed, then the obvious solution is to make SVGs out of the PNGs. — Eru·tuon 21:33, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

No Money No Time – I am going to make an indefinite version of the SVG I just made. And then we can colour the SVGs to match the current mood. Parcly Taxel 23:42, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

 Done: Resolved in November 2022 as the graphic was omitted in the restructure. – DBaK (talk) 15:39, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

I was wondering where this graphic went! It was the only depiction that I've found that made sense of the chaos 😆 but I agree that it's not the "standard" order. I'm glad Wikipedia keeps all of this history around so I don't lose it. Niaxilin (talk) 17:18, 5 December 2022 (UTC)

I think this image (which uses the same order) is nicer: File:German_die_der_das_declensions.svg. --Zundark (talk) 20:18, 5 December 2022 (UTC)

I was never sure I liked it but to try not to be unfair, when changing the order of this article back to the correct standard, I did make a new version of it, which is at File:German articles der die das.png. I have made an SVG of it too but it won't upload at the moment. I will try again sometime. If you think it is any use for the article please feel free to open a fresh debate! Cheers DBaK (talk) 22:14, 5 December 2022 (UTC)

File:German die der das declensions.svg uses "der – das – die", which was found consensually to be unhelpful. File:German articles der die das.png is in the correct order and avoids a confusing layout, so it does no harm. But I don't see how it makes the matter any clearer than the plain table already does. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 23:49, 5 December 2022 (UTC)

For me, it's the colors that helped the most. Quickly seeing six different words instead of 16 helps me absorb the information faster. The SVG is better in this respect because it uses only six colors, while the PNG uses eight (?). The second, and lesser benefit was in the groupings. As a visual learner, I remember shapes and patterns easier than individual words. But I'd say that's secondary to the color coding. Niaxilin (talk) 12:19, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

Hi ... I have been trying to follow this but I am getting a little confused. I'd love to know:

1. Is something concrete being proposed here and if so what? We could discuss a proposal but I don't think that we have one.
2. Could people please use precise filenames for the graphics? Referring to the PNG or the SVG gets us nowhere as there are at least two of each being discussed and I don't know which one you mean. Use the filename, please, and it is clear.

Where I am coming from on this:

•  I agree with Michael Bednarek that the graphic adds relatively little. I am agnostic, tending somewhat towards negative, on its inclusion but it is not a hill on which I am prepared to die either way.
•  The incorrect word order der, das, die is a busted flush and, in the nicest possible way, I don't really want to talk about it. The only way forward for this article is der, die, das. I absolutely get why people could have liked the graphic but that only makes it an attractive and interesting thing that is wrong, not something that we can use.
•  The original (wrong!) graphic is at File:German definite article declension.png
•  As a courtesy, I made a new version with the correct word order and this is at File:German articles der die das.png. I didn't really intend to deploy but since my proposed changes to the article's word order made File:German definite article declension.png redundant I thought I should have it up my sleeve in case anyone thought it important.
•  In my new version File:German articles der die das.png I respected as closely as possible the original version while changing the word order. So it does have more colours, yes, because the original did. It uses differing colours for the different uses of der and den, but I know that some of the other versions just use the same colours and this is a learning-style thing on which I am not qualified to comment.
•  I am lousy at that sort of graphics editing (and indeed most other sorts) and it was a Royal Pain In The You-know-what for me to do it. However, if there is a consensus that we want a version of File:German articles der die das.png that uses consistent colours-per-word then I could probably make that. Or if you, dear reader, are good at graphics then please feel free to step in. I can assist with files which you probably do not need! But I don't intend to take any further action on this unless consensus here says that we need to.

I think that's me done with this for now. I will await with interest a response to my (1) above, preferably respecting (2), but I won't hold my breath and there is no urgency here ... it can just wait, or stay how it is, and no-one will suffer. Best to all, DBaK (talk) 12:39, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

I think User:Niaxilin may have a point about some advantages of a coloured graphic, and, as I wrote above, adding File:German articles der die das.png to the article does no harm and may address that point. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 12:52, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

Thanks very much @Michael Bednarek, and are you OK with the current colours at File:German articles der die das.png or do you think they should be made consistent across der and den, hence fewer colours? Cheers DBaK (talk) 14:27, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

Whatever. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 23:56, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

Here's an updated der-die-das PNG with six distinct colors. Thoughts? I've never uploaded a Commons image before. I hope I did so correctly. Niaxilin (talk) 09:07, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

I think it's very nice and if people are happy with a six-colour model I would cheerfully support its inclusion, though please note that this is not my field of expertise. It's very bright and clear and might help people see the similarities. I would have appreciated it when I was learning German. Well done and cheers DBaK (talk) 10:22, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

"pronouns"

Quote:

Up until the 18th century, a genitive noun was often used instead of a possessive pronoun. This is occasionally found in very literary modern German.

"OLD": "Des Königs Krone" (The king's crown)

("MODERN": "Die Krone des Königs" - BUT: "Die Königskrone" (compound noun))

These pronouns are used if using the ordinary possessive pronoun is understood reflexively, or there are several possessors.

1. des is no pronoun, but the genitive of the definite article (which in pseudo-modern grammar can be called determiner).
2. As the example shows, the article des and genitive of the noun König (which is Königs) is not replaced by anything, but instead the word order is simply changed.

-91.63.241.84 (talk) 10:49, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

 Done: As of November 2022 this wording seems to be absent from the article – DBaK (talk) 15:39, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

no direct form for a plural

"Like its English equivalent (though unlike Spanish), it has no direct form for a plural" - so why there are some forms specified in the table below for "Indefinite article"? 31.135.192.26 (talk) 13:31, 9 February 2020 (UTC)

I don't know how the rest of it read then, on 9 February 2020, but reading it now it appears that maybe this query is dealt with by the clarification that, whilst there indeed is no direct equivalent, other words do get used in this or a similar role, and they get inflected like in the table? I would happily cede this discussion to someone with greater expertise, though. DBaK (talk) 15:44, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

Der/die/das order – again

We agreed unanimously to change the order to der/die/das. Thanks, all.

I see that this was discussed seven years ago but with no conclusion reached – or, if you like, an unspoken agreement to do nothing. I am very strongly convinced that der/die/das is the correct order and that der/das/die, whatever the good reasons for its choice, which I acknowledge, is wrong simply because so many people say der/die/das. (This includes Mr Perkins, my late German teacher but, hey, WP:OR!) I believe that it takes very little searching, or even looking at our own other articles about German (yeah, not an RS but even so), to see how it stacks up. Due to my own work etc I do not have time for a huge debate on this and a great amassing of evidence, so yes it may fail again. On the other hand, not everyone involved the first time round is still editing here so it may be that it does not have opposition, and I might be able to justify a WP:BOLD change which, after all, can always be reverted if you hate it. I would be very interested to know what other editors think and whether we can make some changes here to – meiner Meinung nach, at least – bring us into line with common practice here and in the wider world. Like I say I do not have the time or inclination for a full ECHR hearing on this. I am a bit rubbish at tables but I think I can redo the article without wrecking it too much; in case people are very attached to the colour graphic I have also redone it in der/die/das order and could replace the existing. It is not quite as beautiful but it is a fair try for an idiot, and a more skilled person could probably redo it twice before breakfast. What do you think? Best to all, DBaK (talk) 21:34, 13 November 2022 (UTC) Asked at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Germany in case anyone would like to look in from there to here. DBaK (talk) 21:42, 13 November 2022 (UTC) Update – I have also, I thinkhope, contacted or tried to contact everyone who discussed this above in the section "what is the deal with the order of the prepositions?" DBaK (talk) 14:44, 14 November 2022 (UTC) Update 2 – I have left a note, whilst trying not to canvass, for a German friend on here who has other Germanophone-editor friends. I think that is about as much as I can do to try to get some opinions to further assist with this discussion. Best to all, DBaK (talk) 21:27, 14 November 2022 (UTC) My experience is that, as taught in English, the order is: der - die - das - die (plural), but other editors may have learnt a different order. I see no reason why the order can't be changed as long as a WP:RS is added. Bermicourt (talk) 22:14, 13 November 2022 (UTC) From my very basic German learning, der/die/das sounds correct. Can you please explain where you wish to make this edit? Just for context, you know. Kiwipete (talk) 04:57, 14 November 2022 (UTC) @Kiwipete thanks for this. I mean in the present article, German articles, the one whose Talk page this is. Every place where the data is presented in tabular form is currently in der/das/die order and I would like to change them to der/die/das. Cheers DBaK (talk) 11:53, 14 November 2022 (UTC) Thanks so much :) Yes, absolutely those tables look really wrong, the order should be masculine/feminine/neuter. Just my two cents' worth, though, I wouldn't know where to find a reliable source. Kiwipete (talk) 08:11, 15 November 2022 (UTC) @Bermicourt thanks, proper reply to follow. DBaK (talk) 11:40, 14 November 2022 (UTC) Germans would say: der, die, das. Everything else sounds arkward. Der, die, das is also the order in the theme song of the German Sesamstraße. The original song from 1973: Sesamstraße - Intro (1973). -- Reise Reise (talk) 16:45, 14 November 2022 (UTC) I do feel that Sesamstraße is a very powerful argument! Cheers DBaK (talk) 21:14, 14 November 2022 (UTC) Germans say der, die, das. I believe, this order comes from latin language: masculin, feminin, neutrum. Grimes2 (talk) 22:30, 14 November 2022 (UTC) In German, the order is indubitably der/die/das. Dictionaries indicate the grammatical gender in that order (Dschungel is m. / n.). The convoluted image ought to be removed from the article as it merges forms that shouldn't be merged. A straight table, in the correct order, is supported by teaching material, dictionary use, and Wikitionary (see wikt:der#German). -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 02:47, 15 November 2022 (UTC) Reliable source for presentation/teaching/learning order @Bermicourt raises the sensible question of an RS for the change I would like to make. This gave me pause for thought – what is an RS for this information? It's a little tricky, or perhaps I am overthinking it? What I mean is that I can find and cite plenty of very reliable places where the der/die/das order is used. I can quote those till the cows come home, no problem. I would also think it is unlikely, if not impossible, to find an RS that shows them in der/das/die order ... I have not yet seen one but maybe I am doing Evil Confirmation Bias™? But is showing examples of its use the same as showing a source for that being the common way to do it? In other words, do I really need an RS for the kind-of meta-statement that says der/die/das is the correct order in which to show this because that is how we teach and you have to be bonkers to do otherwise or like whatevs ... because I could be in much greater difficulty with that, since it may be a bit of a Wikipedia:THESKYISBLUE type of thing which no-one has ever bothered to write down, because it's obvious like, I don't know, teaching treble clef first for most musicians or talking about red and blue before burgundy and cyan?? Like I say, I may be overthinking this and/or expressing myself unclearly – neither would be the first time for me! Sorry. If there is not hot opposition to the changes, then I might just make them anyway, cite what I can, and see what happens. Edits can indeed be made, reverted and discussed and it only gets disruptive if there is silliness. As someone pointed out already the whole article is uncited so it is not like there's a source for the current version either ... indeed just a few lines up from this point you can see the originator of this der/das/die order here saying I decided to order them as ... which sounds like personal opinion rather than deep research. And I do absolutely understand why they did this: I just think that the weight of existing usage makes it wrong. I am aware that I am going on about this a bit much and I may try to stfu a bit now. Others' comments are very very welcome. Best to all, DBaK (talk) 14:04, 14 November 2022 (UTC) There are no sources for the wrong order der/das/die, so we don't have to jump through hoops to provide more than has been shown here. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 02:47, 15 November 2022 (UTC) Go ahead, I support your first comment and the proposed changes --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:22, 15 November 2022 (UTC) Done. I think there's some way of marking this discussion as closed, but have forgotten :( Kiwipete (talk) 08:07, 16 November 2022 (UTC) Thanks everyone for the helpful replies, and thanks Kiwipete for actually doing it. Since there was no disagreement and since my waffling about this uncontentious topic now seems disproportionately long, I hope it is OK to collapse this section as Kiwipete mentioned. Thanks and best wishes to all, DBaK (talk) 09:12, 16 November 2022 (UTC)