Jump to content

Talk:Kidnapping of Elizabeth Smart: Difference between revisions

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Browse history interactively
← Previous edit
Content deleted Content added
VisualWikitext
Cewbot (talk | contribs)
Bots
7,141,965 edits
m Maintain {{WPBS}}: 3 WikiProject templates. Keep majority rating "C" in {{WPBS}}. Remove 3 same ratings as {{WPBS}} in {{WikiProject Crime}}, {{WikiProject United States}}, {{WikiProject Brigham Young University}}.
 
(10 intermediate revisions by 8 users not shown)
Line 1: Line 1:
{{WikiProjectBannerShell|blp=yes|1=
{{WikiProject banner shell|blp=yes|class=C|1=
{{WikiProject Crime |class=c |importance=low}}
{{WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography|importance=low}}
{{WikiProject United States |class=C |importance=Mid |UT=yes |UT-importance=Mid}}
{{WikiProject United States |importance=Mid |UT=yes |UT-importance=Mid}}
{{WikiProject Brigham Young University |class=c |importance=low}}
{{WikiProject Brigham Young University |importance=low}}
}}
}}
{{User:MiszaBot/config
{{User:MiszaBot/config
|algo = old(180d)
|algo = old(180d)
|archive = Talk:Elizabeth Smart kidnapping/Archive %(counter)d
|archive = Talk:Kidnapping of Elizabeth Smart/Archive %(counter)d
|counter = 2
|counter = 2
|maxarchivesize = 150K
|maxarchivesize = 150K
Line 13: Line 13:
|minthreadsleft = 0
|minthreadsleft = 0
}}
}}
{{archives|banner=yes|age=6|units=months|bot=Lowercase sigmabot III}}
{{archive banner}}
{{Auto archiving notice |bot=Lowercase sigmabot III |age=6 |units=months}}


== Richard Ricci ==
== Misapplication of BLP standard to non-BLP article and non-BLP section. ==


Richard Ricci was a handyman that died while in prison for the kidnapping of Elizabeth Smart. Should we start a page for him or create a section in this article?
BLP clearly doesn't apply to this "Search and Investigation" section. It's well established (going back to March 2009) that BLP doesn't apply to the article. The article was even ''renamed'' to reflect that. BLP definitely doesn't apply to the WHOLE "Search and investigation" section. Any non-trivial fact about any LP should have a ref meeting BLP standards. But, this section is not a BLP and should not ''as a whole'' be held to BLP standards as implied by "BLP" being in the tag. Tag individual sentences if needed, although you will find very few of them. [[Special:Contributions/73.119.161.105|73.119.161.105]] ([[User talk:73.119.161.105|talk]]) 23:59, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
:It should be clear from both my and {{mention|TJRC|p=}}'s edit summaries that you do not have [[WP:CONSENSUS|consensus]] for this change, and that we disagree with your reasoning as you expressed it in your summaries. To recap those summaries here, [[WP:BLP]] does indeed apply anywhere in Wikipedia where living people are discussed, even on Talk pages; this article contains sensitive biographical information concerning a number of living people (Ms. Smart, as well as those who abducted her); hence we maintain that the BLP version of the template is appropriate, even if the article is not, narrowly defined, a biography. Further, the change is trivial, since the message appearing to readers of the article is identical regardless of which version of the template is used. You will need to seek consensus for your change, perhaps through RfC, or by posting the question at the [[WP:BLPN|BLP Noticeboard]]. In the mean time, the article, and specifically the {{tl|BLP sources section}} template in question, should remain at its consensus version per Wikipedia policy. <span style="font-family: Gill Sans MT, Arial, Helvetica; font-weight:140;">[[User:General Ization|<font color="#006633">General <i>Ization</i></font>]]</span> <sup>''[[User talk:General Ization|<font color="#000666">Talk </font>]] ''</sup> 00:49, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
:I'll acknowledge that I misstated one fact above: the BLP version of the template does indeed refer, in the message box visible to readers, to the article as a ''biography of a living person'', whereas {{tl|refimprove}} does not. (I was erroneously looking at the template at the top of the page rather than the one you proposed to modify.) Consequently, assuming you acknowledge that '''BLP still applies to this article, and other articles that contain sensitive biographical information, even if they are not biographies ''per se''''', I'll withdraw my objection to the change you've proposed. However, I still encourage you to bring this kind of issue to the Talk page ''before'' approaching [[WP:3RR]], to help avoid this kind of conflict in the future. <span style="font-family: Gill Sans MT, Arial, Helvetica; font-weight:140;">[[User:General Ization|<font color="#006633">General <i>Ization</i></font>]]</span> <sup>''[[User talk:General Ization|<font color="#000666">Talk </font>]] ''</sup> 02:20, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
:The BLP sources section template should continue to be used in preference to the Refimprove section template. The purpose of flagging it as a BLP is that it does refer to text that refers to a living person, and that the Wikipedia policies and guidelines apply -- which they do.
:Any issue with the text generated by the template should be addressed by proposing changes to the template, not by removing the template. [[User:TJRC|TJRC]] ([[User talk:TJRC|talk]]) 16:18, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
::E.g., a proposal to change the ''section'' variant of the {{tl|BLP Sources}} template to display this text would not be inappropriate: {{quote|"This section, which contains [[WP:BLP|biographical content concerning a living person]], '''needs additional citations for verification'''. Please help by adding reliable sources. ..."}}
::The IP should note that "BLP" ≠ "biography". "BLP" is not a type of article, but a Wiki-wide policy concerning how we approach content concerning living (or recently dead) persons in ''any'' article. Consequently, there is no such thing as a "non-BLP article" or a "non-BLP section", though there are many articles that are not intended to be biographies of living people. <span style="font-family: Gill Sans MT, Arial, Helvetica; font-weight:140;">[[User:General Ization|<font color="#006633">General <i>Ization</i></font>]]</span> <sup>''[[User talk:General Ization|<font color="#000666">Talk </font>]] ''</sup> 23:20, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
===What sentences in the section require BLP-standard refs?===
Maybe this will help:<br>
What specific sentences in the section require BLP-standard refs?<br>
We can tag them with a special "BLP empowered" tag (of some sort to be determined). Let me see if I can identify some (stand by...) [[Special:Contributions/73.119.161.105|73.119.161.105]] ([[User talk:73.119.161.105|talk]]) 02:09, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
<br>........................................<br>
Here we go. So the question at hand is "Is the sentence BLP?".<br>
(I've added my assessment in bold after each sentence.)<br>
<small><small>

1) A massive regional search effort, organized by the [[Laura Recovery Center]], looked for Elizabeth in the days immediately following her abduction. '''not BLP'''<br>
2) Up to 2,000 volunteers a day were dispatched to the area surrounding her home trying to find any trace of the missing girl. '''not BLP'''<br>
3) Word spread quickly as an impromptu coalition of websites facilitated the distribution of information about Elizabeth Smart with flyers that could be downloaded for printing or immediately circulated online by email or Internet fax. '''not BLP'''<br>
3) Volunteers combed the hills near her family's home and extended the search using search dogs and aircraft. '''not BLP'''<br>
4) After many days of intensive searching, the community-led search was closed by the local volunteers and efforts were directed to other means of finding Elizabeth. '''not BLP'''<br>
5) Although police had an eyewitness in Mary Katherine, her report was not very helpful to investigators. '''not BLP'''<br>
6) Furthermore, there was almost no significant [[Forensic identification|forensic evidence]] such as clear [[fingerprint]]s or [[DNA]] samples to help identify the abductor, hindering the investigation. '''not BLP'''<br>
7) A search using [[bloodhound]]s was unsuccessful in following Mitchell and Elizabeth's path on foot. '''not BLP'''<br>
9) Police questioned and interviewed hundreds of potential suspects including one individual, Bret Michael Edmunds, a 26-year-old drifter who was pursued across the country but ultimately was cleared of suspicion in the case after being located in a West Virginia hospital suffering from a drug overdose. '''not BLP (maybe characterizing BME like that would be, it would certainly need an ordinary-quality ref or it can simply be removed)'''<br>
10) One by one, the leads that were pursued often put at-large criminals back in prison, but they did not produce the desired result of finding Elizabeth. '''not BLP'''<br>
11) The Salt Lake City police ultimately announced that their prime person of interest in the case was Richard Ricci, a handyman who had worked for the Smarts. '''not BLP (he's dead)'''<br>
12) Ricci died in jail from a [[brain hemorrhage]] a few weeks after he refused to provide a confession to Utah corrections officers. '''not BLP (he's dead)'''<br>
13) With his death, it seemed that all leads were exhausted. '''not BLP'''<br>
14) When the actual kidnappers were apprehended nine months after Elizabeth's abduction, Ricci's widow issued a statement expressing relief at Smart's safe return and her husband's innocence. '''not BLP'''<br>
15) On December 18, 2015, Angela Morse Ricci committed suicide, her son stating she never recovered from her husband's death. '''not BLP (she's dead)'''<br>
16) The Smarts and their extended family persistently maintained a presence in the local and national media, in order to keep Elizabeth's name in the press, providing the media with home videos of her as a teenager and as a child, and created a website to serve as a resource center. '''not BLP (the website and other releases might ''contain BLP'', but this is ''about'' those things and no more)'''<br>
17) After several months, a breakthrough came in October 2002, when Mary Katherine suddenly remembered where she had heard Mitchell's voice, telling her parents, "I think I know who it is: Emmanuel." '''not BLP, just a fact of the record of events, and cited also'''<br>
18) The Smarts sought to help unemployed people in the community by paying them for odd jobs or handy work around the property. '''not BLP'''<br>
19) Mitchell, who called himself "Emmanuel", had been the one who informed many homeless people that the Smarts would hire them and also worked for them himself one day. '''not BLP (calling him "homeless" might be, but it can also be removed)'''<br>
20) He worked at the Smarts' home for five hours, helping on the roof and raking leaves. '''not BLP'''<br>
21) Mary Katherine now identified "Emmanuel"/Mitchell as the man who had abducted her sister. '''not BLP'''<br>
22) When this was reported to the police, they had doubts as to its reliability. '''not BLP'''<br>
23) Mary Katherine had barely heard the suspect's quiet voice and for only a few minutes, and had just awakened from sleep. '''not BLP'''<br>
24) When it was reported several months later that she thought it was the voice of a man she had only met briefly and more than a year before, the police did not consider it a worthy lead. '''not BLP'''<br>
25) Tensions developed as the parents accused the police of not thoroughly following up on this lead. '''not BLP'''<br>
26) The family used the services of sketch artist Dalene Nielson to draw "Emmanuel's" face from memory. '''not BLP'''<br>
27) In February, this drawing was released to the media, with the assistance of [[John Walsh (television host)|John Walsh]], who revealed it in an appearance on ''[[Larry King Live]]'' and on his own series, ''[[America's Most Wanted]]''. '''not BLP'''<br>
28) The drawing was recognized by Emmanuel's family, who reported his actual name, Brian David Mitchell, to the police and provided them with contemporary photographs of Mitchell. '''not BLP'''<br>
29) On March 12, 2003, just over nine months after the abduction, Mitchell, who was now wanted by police for questioning, was spotted traveling with two people in [[Sandy, Utah|Sandy]], [[Utah]], by an alert biker who had heard of the kidnapping on ''[[America's Most Wanted]]'' the night before and alerted police. '''not BLP'''<br>
30) The people were Elizabeth Smart—disguised in a gray wig, sunglasses, and veil — and Wanda Ileen Barzee. '''not BLP'''<br>
31) Smart was finally recognized by the officers during questioning, and was promptly reunited with her family. '''not BLP'''<br>
32) Mitchell and Barzee were taken into custody as alleged kidnappers. '''not BLP'''
</small></small>

That's a lot of text up there, I know. But, it has been made necessary to do that to show clearly that the section has very little actual BLP in it. What little there is can be addressed by slight modification of the sentences. There is indeed much material needing references, but it's not BLP material. So, the ordinary section tag saying "needs refs" at the top should ''not'' be saying "This is BLP so it really really needs really really good refs".

[[Special:Contributions/73.119.161.105|73.119.161.105]] ([[User talk:73.119.161.105|talk]]) 04:29, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

===Wording of BLP section tag looks stupid===
That ridiculous BLP section tag says:<br>
"This section of a [[biography of a living person]] needs additional citations for verification. Please help ..."

It refers to the article as if the article is a BLP, which ''the article'' is not. (Established 8 years ago)<br>
This was the reason I initially altered it to be a normal section "needs refs" tag... '''''because it just looks so stupid!''''' :-)

[[Special:Contributions/73.119.161.105|73.119.161.105]] ([[User talk:73.119.161.105|talk]]) 04:46, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 05:08, 16 February 2024

Richard Ricci

[edit]

Richard Ricci was a handyman that died while in prison for the kidnapping of Elizabeth Smart. Should we start a page for him or create a section in this article?

Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Kidnapping_of_Elizabeth_Smart&oldid=1207972361"