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-It is questionable to say, "Many collapse, with the previous government and authority resuming control" because the degree of control that the entity making the UDI had in the first place may have been very weak or nonexistent.  --[[User:Daniel C. Boyer|Daniel C. Boyer]] 15:33, 29 Jul 2003 (UTC)
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-:I think this fixes it and is perhaps more neutral:<blockquote>Some unilaterally declared states never take hold, lacking any form of credibility, authority, or legitimacy. Of those that do take hold, a significant number collapse, with control returning to the previous government, or are replaced, with control shifting to a new follow-on government.</blockquote> [[User:Daniel Quinlan|Daniel Quinlan]] 01:37, Jul 30, 2003 (UTC)
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-The first is more correct, the latter one inaccurate. Many UDI claims are not made by entities authorized to make declarations, then become a reality as the 'entity' develops an authority and become a ''real'' government. Most UDIs are made by entities not entitled to do so, or because they did not follow standard procedure. Examples include the [[Irish Republic]], [[Biafra]] and [[Rhodesia]]. UDI isn't about unilaterally declared ''states'' but states making unilateral declarations of independence, or groups of individuals in a region declaring themselves states and then declaring the 'states' independent of the previous and in theory still lawful authority. If a new 'state' takes hold, it eventually does gain acceptance both of its existence and its UDI. [[User:Jtdirl|FearÉIREANN]] 01:50, 30 Jul 2003 (UTC)
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-:By "authority", I did not mean some United Nations or League of Nations resolution.  There is clearly no "standard procedure" for making a UDI, but a number of UDIs clearly have had either popular support or the power to back it.  I would probably include in that category the [[Irish Republic]] (control shifted to follow-on government), [[Rhodesia]] (control returned to former government, then shifted), and maybe even [[Biafra]].  Anyway, can you suggest a correction?  I'd like the definition to leave out the loaded term "collapse" and allow either follow-on government or return of former government (since, for example, it wasn't the previous government that replaced the [[Irish Republic]]).  [[User:Daniel Quinlan|Daniel Quinlan]] 02:09, Jul 30, 2003 (UTC)
-''Collapse'' is the correct word. Talking about authority returning to the former government is problematic because, as in Ireland, you did not have one government but two; the ''legal'' government of the Lord Lieutenant in Dublin Castle, which had the support or tolerance of probably around 40%, the Irish Republic of deV which claimed a popular mandate under the (largely uncontested) 1918 general election and which had the support of around 30% (Sinn Féin's support base, going on ''contested'' national and local elections, seem to have been around 48% and contemporary accounts suggest that around 40% of its support (around 20% of the national vote) was not from people who endorsed its policies - some were more extreme, some were ''using'' SF to force home rule, not independence suggesting around 1 in 3 were backing the Republic) while the remaining 30% kept their heads well down and refused to take sides. Nationalist theory suggests that IR was succeeded by the IFS. British constitutional theory suggests the IR was a pretence and so the IFS was preceded by the Lord Lieutenant's government.
-:''Collapse'' indicates an aspect of ''sudden'' failure which may not always be the case.  I believe it is used to imply disorder, chaos, mayhem, etc. which is why I said it was a loaded term, even if it is commoonly used.  The ending of the government may take place slowly or orderly.  As a separate issue, regardless of British constitutional theory, one could make a case that the Lord Lieutenant's government had also effectively collapsed before the Irish Free State.  Legality is purely POV.  I'm getting seriously off-topic, but were all members of the Irish Republic from Sinn Féin?  I thought the Irish Republic assembly was composed of the majority of the former Irish members of Parliament.  [[User:Daniel Quinlan|Daniel Quinlan]] 02:56, Jul 30, 2003 (UTC)
-The line above simply says that ''many collapse'', not all (though ''some'' might be a better word). ''Collapse'' is the standard word to describe the fall of a government, a regime or a proto-regime. It was used because it is the ''standard'' word used, and thus NPOV. [[User:Jtdirl|FearÉIREANN]] 02:29, 30 Jul 2003 (UTC)
-:Anyway, you made some good points, so I better understand your objections, even if I disagree with some of them.  So, how about this? [[User:Daniel Quinlan|Daniel Quinlan]] 02:56, Jul 30, 2003 (UTC)<blockquote>Not all such declarations result in actual states and those states that do result from UDIs do not always survive.  A significant number fail, with control returning to the previous government, or are replaced, with control shifting to a new follow-on government.</blockquote>