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==Discussion==
If a starting-point is wanted, the 3rd century Imperial decree that bound certain agricultural workers to their villa is the origin of ''"villein"''. The villas of Sicily, Magna Graecia, Provence, or Aquitaine, and the big ecclesiastical manors that originated in similar villas turned over to abbots, like Monte Cassino... [[User:Wetman|Wetman]] 21:48, 10 May 2004 (UTC)


==Scottish feudal law==
This information looked as though it should fit under Feudal land tenure, but that redirects here and it doesn't seem to fit: it's going under [[History of Scotland]] and slightly expanded under [[Scots law]], think a version belongs here? (IANAL)..
The [[feudal]] system lingered on in [[Scots law]] on land ownership, so that a landowner still had obligations to a ''feudal superior'' '''including''' payment of ''feu duty''. In [[1974]] legislation began a process of redeeming ''feuduties'' so that most of these payments were ended, but it was only with the attention of the [[Scottish Parliament]] that a [http://www.ejcl.org/83/art83-5.html series of acts] were passed, the first in [[2000]], for The Abolition of Feudal Tenure on [[November 28]] [[2004]].....[[User:Dave souza|dave souza]] 19:02, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)


== "Land tenure" article ==
== Merge from Manor ==


In theory, a [[manor]] is one component of manorialism, but in practice that article goes into the same depth of social context as this one does about manorialism in general, and this one goes into the same depth about the parts and operation of a manor. The details of coverage are somewhat different, so I think it makes sense for the two to be merged under the more general topic, which will spend much of its length talking about its core component. -- [[User:Beland|Beland]] ([[User talk:Beland|talk]]) 06:31, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
How does this article relate to the [[land tenure]] article? Is there much room for overlap? This article seems mostly to describe the system and conditions of rural economy in medieval Europe. By contrast, the land tenure article should be mostly about the legal and ideological aspects of the concept of tenure itself. Also, I noticed that [[feudal land tenure]] redirects to this article rather than [[land tenure]]. Maybe it would be better linked to land tenure. --[[User:Yu Ninjie|Yu Ninjie]] 23:52, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)
:Agree. [[User:SilkTork|SilkTork]] ([[User talk:SilkTork|talk]]) 09:02, 6 March 2021 (UTC)
::Useful content has been merged, and the manor title has been restored to a disambiguation page, which it originally was. [[User:SilkTork|SilkTork]] ([[User talk:SilkTork|talk]]) 09:49, 6 March 2021 (UTC)


: I've changed that redirect. I'm not sure if [[land tenure]] and [[manorialism]] ought to be merged or remain separate (though your rationale for the separation of topics seems convincing), but [[feudal land tenure]] is clearly better redirected to the former. -- [[User:Rbellin|Rbellin]]|[[User talk:Rbellin|Talk]] 18:45, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
:::It hasn't been a dab page since 2011. I think there is a primary meaning and I wonder why "manorialism" (the construct) is deemed the appropriate title for the main article. [[User:Srnec|Srnec]] ([[User talk:Srnec|talk]]) 02:02, 9 March 2021 (UTC)


::::I think it is worth having a discussion on the name. I expect that the average reader would not be that familiar with the term "manorialism". I think they would be more familiar with the term "manor system" or, less so, "manorial system". [[Manorial system]] is an existing redirect so I have added it as an alternative name in the lead. I am unsure about using "manor" as the name for this article as people commonly conflate "manor house" with "manor" so the term "manor" for some readers means the house not the land nor the manorial system. We could have a quick straw poll here and see if it's worth going to a full name change discussion.
== See Also ==
::::Which name do people feel is most appropriate for this article:
If this isn't the best construct to make the association with [[Seigneurial system]], feel free to improve. There seemed to be a few articles linked to this one that were outside of the time period discussed and associated with France or New France, especially linked to ''seigneur'' and variants, for example, [[Joseph Edouard Cauchon]]. I probably missed some. Also, which redirects go here and which to the other article appears somewhat arbitrary. -[[User:Big iron|Big_Iron]] 09:39, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
::::[[Manor]]
::::[[Manorialism]]
::::[[Manor system]]
::::[[Manorial system]]
::::I have a slight personal preference for [[Manor system]] as I think that is easier to understand, but it's not the most common term in reliable sources. Reliable sources mostly use [[Manorialism]], and as that is the existing name, that is the one I feel is most appropriate. I don't think using [[Manor]] would be appropriate as "manor" is a unit of land in manorialism (or the manor system), so "manor" is only a part of what this article is about. However, it's not worth having a separate article on "manor" as <s>the</s> [one] explanation for what a manor is would be this article, so the two articles would essentially just duplicate each other. I am also not keen on having [[Manor]] redirect here as the primary term, because enough people use "manor" to mean the big house, rather than the unit of land belonging to "manorialism" that they may get confused landing here after typing "manor" to get to an article on [[manor house]], whereas at the moment they land on the disamb page and can quickly and easily find what they are after. [[User:SilkTork|SilkTork]] ([[User talk:SilkTork|talk]]) 02:56, 9 March 2021 (UTC)


:::::It seems absurd to me to define a manor in terms of manorialism. Like defining a fief in terms of feudalism. Does manorialism exist by definition wherever there are manors? [[User:Srnec|Srnec]] ([[User talk:Srnec|talk]]) 02:12, 10 March 2021 (UTC)
== Feudalism vs. Manoralism ==
::::::I think we are in agreement, which is why I feel manor should redirect to a disamb page. The word has multiple meanings, only one of which is that a manor is a unit in manorialism. A manor is often understood to be a house - generally the main house in the area, often called The Manor, even though it may never have been the official manor house, sometimes a house and the estate around it (would could be distinct from manorialism - just a house and estate which never had a manor court, etc), in slang a manor is a person's local area, etc. Better for us to deal with each of the meanings of manor in their own articles than to try and explain it all in one article and to have a disamb page allowing people to find the actual meaning they were looking for, and also to see that there are other potential meanings. This article, manorialism, isn't about manor, it is about the manor system. I don't think the manor system itself is one of the possible definitions of manor.

::::::Ah. I see! I have now made a slight adjustment in what I wrote on the 9th - changing "the" for "one". I had the previous manor article in my mind as I wrote that, which did attempt to describe a manor simply as a unit in manorialism, ignoring the other possible meanings - see [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Manor_(feudal_Europe)&oldid=946670313]. [[User:SilkTork|SilkTork]] ([[User talk:SilkTork|talk]]) 08:44, 11 March 2021 (UTC)
What's the difference between feudalism and manoralism? <small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[User:Texas Drama King|Texas Drama King]] ([[User talk:Texas Drama King|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Texas Drama King|contribs]]) {{{2|}}}.</small><!-- Template:Unsigned -->

It's a difficult question but basically what happened is by the middle of the 20th C there was a standard version of what feudalism was that only included the nobility. Manorialism expands feudalism to include not on the nobility but the peasants as well. This is briefly discussed in the feudalism article. -- [[User:Stbalbach|Stbalbach]] 16:45, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

No, it's not a difficult question. Simply put, feudalism was the political and military aspect of the feudal system, while manorialism was the economic aspect. The feudal system arose during the Early Middle ages, specifically in Western Europe during the 9th c. C.E., in response to foreign invasions into the rural Kingdoms which made up Western Europe. Manorialism was created in response to this as it allowed for a rural economy to stay afloat under the protection of Knights - the nobility which swore to protect the manor. Manorialism was mutually benificial for the three classes which resided within the manor: the Lord, who administrated, the Knight, who protected, and the Serf, who labored. To learn more on this subject DO NOT refer to the manorialism (or the feudalism)page as it is akward and quite incorrect, rather, respond directly to me and I'll give you the whole scoop on manorialism and feudalism. ---Dr. Owenby (UT) <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/207.191.184.194|207.191.184.194]] ([[User talk:207.191.184.194|talk]]) 23:38, 5 November 2007 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

==Pictures==
The image is fantastic, but a picture - perhaps an overhead helicopter shot - of an existing French or English manor home, with its various sub plots would paint a better picture for your students. Something like this perhaps http://museum.man.ac.uk/images/Higham4.jpg [[Unsigned, Mar 6, 23:15]]

:Thanks for the link. We can't use it due to copyright problems, unless you are authorized to release it under a license suitable for Wikipedia. -- [[User:Stbalbach|Stbalbach]] 17:50, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

== This article is a mess! ==
Please someone help to re-write this page. It is so long and complex that it is doubtful that anyone can get a general idea of the "manorial system" is and what it meant in those times. Also, there are too many historical anecdotes throughout. This article appears to have been written by a medieval history professor or ??? How can this be edited to be more "reader-friendly?" [[User:BME|BME]] ([[User talk:BME|talk]]) 00:45, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

==Material moved from [[Feudalism]]==

A large chunk of new material was added to the [[feudalism]] article which belongs in this article. It needs to be incorporated into this article. Here it is: [[User:Green Cardamom|Green Cardamom]] ([[User talk:Green Cardamom|talk]]) 15:25, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

<nowiki>==Feudal society==</nowiki>

[[Image:Les Très Riches Heures du duc de Berry mars.jpg|thumb|250px|Peasants plowing in front of a castle, French manuscript c. 1415]]
'''Feudal society''' is a sometimes-debated term used to describe the [[social order]] in the [[Western Europe]], [[Central Europe]], and sometimes [[Japan]] and other regions in the [[Middle Ages]], characterized by the legal subjection of a large part of the [[peasant]]ry to a [[Inheritance|hereditary]] [[Landowner|landholding]] [[elite]] exercising administrative and [[judicial power]] on the basis of reciprocal private undertakings.

The term's validity is questioned by many medieval historians who consider the description "feudal" appropriate only to the specifically voluntary and personal bonds of mutual protection, loyalty and support among members of the administrative, military or ecclesiastical elite, to the exclusion of involuntary obligations attached to tenure of "unfree" land. This stricter concept is discussed under [[feudalism]], and the bonds which it excludes under [[manorialism]]. [[Examples of feudalism]] are helpful to fully understand feudalism and feudal society.

Feudal society was divided into three clases: the tillers of the soil, the citizens or bourgeoisie, and the nobility. Tillers of the soil were of two classes: peasants (rustici, villeins) and serfs. The former were free men who paid so much a year for the use of their lands, which were hereditary. Being independent of their lords, they were free to dispose of their possessions and might amass considerable property. The serfs were slaves who were attached to the soil. They were allowed to marry and each received a bit of land to cultivate. Each paid a head-tax to his lord. Serfs could neither leave their land nor be removed from it. If they ran away, they were returned if caught, unless they had entered the service of the clergy. Serfs might buy their freedom. Sometimes they were set free by the lord.

Citizens were inhabitants of cities. Since many cities arose after the establishment of feudalism, citizens were under the control of some lord. They resented this greatly. As cities grew large and rich, they resisted feudalism and ultimately contributed to its downfall.

Nobles were of two classes: secular and ecclesiastical. The only occupation of the former was the profession of arms. At first only those who could afford to equip themselves with arms could become nobles. By the 13th century, nobility had become hereditary. Wealth was no longer the passport to the noble rank. Marriage between nobles and commoners was forbidden, or else regarded as a méssalliance. In Germany and France, all chidren of a noble family inherited the title. In England only the eldest son received the family title and wealth, and only he was required to marry within the noble class.

Ecclesiastical nobles were the great cardinals, archbishops, bishops, and abbots. Since many people gave liberally to the Church, the Church soon acquired great properties. The income from these properties was considerable. It early became the custom to put the younger sons of nobles into the best Church positions.

<nowiki>=====Conception of feudal society=====</nowiki>

In the broader conception of feudal society, as developed in the 1930s by the French ''[[Annales School|Annaliste]]'' historian [[Marc Bloch]], the prevailing features include:<ref>{{Cite book | edition = 2 | publisher = Routledge | isbn = 0415039169 | last = Bloch | first = Marc | title = Feudal Society: Vol 1: The Growth and Ties of Dependence | date = 1989-11-16 }}<br/>{{Cite book | edition = 2 | publisher = Routledge | isbn = 0415039185 | last = Bloch | first = Marc | title = Feudal Society: Vol 2: Social Classes and Political Organisation | date = 1989-11-16 }}</ref>
# The absence of a strong [[Central government|central authority]], and the diffusion of governmental power through the granting of administrative and legal authority over particular lands ([[fief]]s) by higher lords (including the [[Monarch|king]]) to vassals sworn by voluntary [[oath]], also called an act of homage, to support or serve them, usually (though not exclusively) by military means.
# The obligation attached to particular holdings of land that the peasant household should supply the lord with specified labour services or a part of its output (or cash in [[lieu]] thereof) subject to the custom of the holding.

<nowiki>===Common features of feudal societies===</nowiki>

Features common among feudal societies, but which do not necessarily define them, include:
# An overwhelmingly [[Agriculture|agrarian]] economy, with limited money exchange, necessitating the dispersion of political authority and the substitution of arrangements involving economic support from local resources;
# The strength of the [[Roman Catholic Church]] as an ally and counterpart to the civil-military structure, supported by its right to a share ([[tithe]]) of society's output as well as substantial landholdings, and endowed with specific authority and responsibility for moral and material welfare.
# The existence of structures and phenomena not of themselves explicitly feudal (urban and village organisations, royal executive power, free peasant holdings, financial and commercial activity) but each incorporated into the whole.

Alongside such broad similarities, it is important to note the divergences both within and between feudal societies (in forms or complexity of noble association, the extent of peasant dependency or the importance of money payments) as well as the changes which occurred over time within the overall structure (as in Bloch's characterisation of the 11th-century onset of a "second feudal age").

In particular, one should avoid envisaging the social order in terms of a regular "feudal pyramid" with each man bound to one superior lord and the rank of each clearly defined, in a regular chain of allegiances extending from the king at the top to the peasantry at the bottom: aside from the contrast between free and unfree obligation, allegiance was often given to more than one lord, while an individual might possess attributes of more than one rank.

Nor should the medieval theory of the "[[estates of the realm]]" or the "three orders" of feudal society&mdash;"those who make war" (''miles'', knights), "those who pray" (priests, monks) and "those who labour" (peasants, serfs)" (''bellatores'', ''oratores'', ''et'' ''laboratores'')&mdash;be considered a full description of the social order: while those excluded from the first two came over time to be counted among the third, nobles and clerics alike assumed administrative functions in the feudal state, while financial support was relied upon increasingly as a substitute for direct military service. Nobles were defined by the occupation they obtained and no longer by right of birth and are placed in power by the investiture.

The values of men who fought under the first of the "three orders" were ''first'' his horse, ''second'' his son, and ''third'' his wife. A soldier's horse, in feudal society, was considered the price of two and a half generations or two men and a boy.{{Fact|date=January 2009}} The role of women consisted of maintaining the household economy: controlled peasants and regulating what crops will and will not be grown and sold.

"Those who prayed" consisted of priests, monk, and other authorities of the church. The church willingly supported the three orders. "Those who work," peasants and serfs, consisted of the majority of the population and suffered the most.

While few would deny that most of [[France]], [[England]], parts of [[Spain]] and the [[Low Countries]], western and central [[Germany]] and (at least for a time) northern and central [[Italy]] satisfied Bloch's criteria over much of the period, the concept remains of greatest use as an interpretive device for comparative study of local phenomena, rather than as a blanket definition of the medieval social order.

{{reflist-talk}}

== Reverts ==

Reverted two edits just now, forgot I wasn't logged in.[[User:Korin43|Korin43]] ([[User talk:Korin43|talk]]) 19:32, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

== Title ==
With the greatest respect- what is a manorialism. I come here following a bot rename- trying to discover why a reference to a unit of administration has suddennly become an -ism-. Please can we stick to real words. I see this weird hybrid- and work out it must refer to a new religion when the believers worship a manor (as Buddhism relates to the Buddha) or worse a manorial! Come on- title your article sensibly. Manor (feudal) or Manor (unit of administration) would do fine. Please edit a few other articles to remind yourselves how English works. --[[User:ClemRutter|ClemRutter]] ([[User talk:ClemRutter|talk]]) 00:09, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
:With greatest respect, when would you refer to "a" communism or "a" militarism? --To be fair, wiki spell-check redlines the word "manorialism", but one ought to Google before complaining about choice of nomenclature:
:111,000 hits on Google, including Britannica:
:[http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/362699/manorialism http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/362699/manorialism]
:774 hits on Google Books:
:[http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&q=Manorialism http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&q=Manorialism]
:Including one from 1907:
:[http://books.google.com/books?id=Hl8NAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA138&dq=Manorialism&ei=X4iISvKeA4vgyQTxqbmKDg#v=onepage&q=Manorialism&f=false http://books.google.com/books?id=Hl8NAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA138&dq=Manorialism&ei=X4iISvKeA4vgyQTxqbmKDg#v=onepage&q=Manorialism&f=false]
:I'm not married to it, but the word-construct has come naturally to people for at least a century now. --'''<font color="#FF3300">[[User:Yamara|Yamara]]</font>''' <font color="#FF3300">[[User_talk:Yamara|<small>✉</small>]]</font> 22:46, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

== Manor ==
Currently articles linking to [[Manor]] usually need to be redirected to this page. I was wondering does anyone think there could be a brief explanation of "manors" in the introduction, it currently does not explain it apart from a single mention of manors in Germany. [[User:BritishWatcher|BritishWatcher]] ([[User talk:BritishWatcher|talk]]) 16:46, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

== Ownership ==

For land owned outright, rather than being granted by a monarch, how did people come into possession of it? Were they able to accumulate money through some sort of enterprise, or was wealth always hereditary, or what? Was land bought and sold like it is today? -- [[User:Beland|Beland]] ([[User talk:Beland|talk]]) 18:33, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

== Chinese Information? ==

Just wanted to sound this out, would anyone be opposed to moving the information to do with the origins of Chinese manorialism to a separate section/article? It seems out of place, given that the rest of the article is to do with the European medieval system.
[[User:Mrlimmer|Mrlimmer]] ([[User talk:Mrlimmer|talk]])

== External links modified ==

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== Merge from Manor ==

In theory, a [[manor]] is one component of manorialism, but in practice that article goes into the same depth of social context as this one does about manorialism in general, and this one goes into the same depth about the parts and operation of a manor. The details of coverage are somewhat different, so I think it makes sense for the two to be merged under the more general topic, which will spend much of its length talking about its core component. -- [[User:Beland|Beland]] ([[User talk:Beland|talk]]) 06:31, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
:Agree. [[User:SilkTork|SilkTork]] ([[User talk:SilkTork|talk]]) 09:02, 6 March 2021 (UTC)


== English Dialect ==
== English Dialect ==
Line 135: Line 36:
::Yeah, I just think it makes the most sense. I'll leave this up for a couple days to see if anyone thinks otherwise and then I'll make the change.
::Yeah, I just think it makes the most sense. I'll leave this up for a couple days to see if anyone thinks otherwise and then I'll make the change.
:Agree. [[User:SilkTork|SilkTork]] ([[User talk:SilkTork|talk]]) 09:01, 6 March 2021 (UTC)
:Agree. [[User:SilkTork|SilkTork]] ([[User talk:SilkTork|talk]]) 09:01, 6 March 2021 (UTC)
:Ok, I think that there is enough consensus to do the change. I have added the BE template to the top of this page and will start making the language of the main article consistent.[[User:Jtrrs0|Jtrrs0]] ([[User talk:Jtrrs0|talk]]) 12:06, 6 March 2021 (UTC)

== Pirenne-these ==

The Pirenne-these has been disproved. [[Special:Contributions/134.58.253.20|134.58.253.20]] ([[User talk:134.58.253.20|talk]]) 14:08, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
:This comment refers to [[Special:Diff/1178407157|this edit]] about [[Henri Pirenne]]'s thesis (that's the English word, but it seems it's called a [[wikt:these#Dutch|"these" in Dutch]]). I know very little about the subject but that seems like a reasonable edit to make. [[User:Graham87|Graham87]] ([[User talk:Graham87|talk]]) 14:58, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 21:48, 18 February 2024


Merge from Manor

[edit]

In theory, a manor is one component of manorialism, but in practice that article goes into the same depth of social context as this one does about manorialism in general, and this one goes into the same depth about the parts and operation of a manor. The details of coverage are somewhat different, so I think it makes sense for the two to be merged under the more general topic, which will spend much of its length talking about its core component. -- Beland (talk) 06:31, 28 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Agree. SilkTork (talk) 09:02, 6 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Useful content has been merged, and the manor title has been restored to a disambiguation page, which it originally was. SilkTork (talk) 09:49, 6 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
It hasn't been a dab page since 2011. I think there is a primary meaning and I wonder why "manorialism" (the construct) is deemed the appropriate title for the main article. Srnec (talk) 02:02, 9 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I think it is worth having a discussion on the name. I expect that the average reader would not be that familiar with the term "manorialism". I think they would be more familiar with the term "manor system" or, less so, "manorial system". Manorial system is an existing redirect so I have added it as an alternative name in the lead. I am unsure about using "manor" as the name for this article as people commonly conflate "manor house" with "manor" so the term "manor" for some readers means the house not the land nor the manorial system. We could have a quick straw poll here and see if it's worth going to a full name change discussion.
Which name do people feel is most appropriate for this article:
Manor
Manorialism
Manor system
Manorial system
I have a slight personal preference for Manor system as I think that is easier to understand, but it's not the most common term in reliable sources. Reliable sources mostly use Manorialism, and as that is the existing name, that is the one I feel is most appropriate. I don't think using Manor would be appropriate as "manor" is a unit of land in manorialism (or the manor system), so "manor" is only a part of what this article is about. However, it's not worth having a separate article on "manor" as the [one] explanation for what a manor is would be this article, so the two articles would essentially just duplicate each other. I am also not keen on having Manor redirect here as the primary term, because enough people use "manor" to mean the big house, rather than the unit of land belonging to "manorialism" that they may get confused landing here after typing "manor" to get to an article on manor house, whereas at the moment they land on the disamb page and can quickly and easily find what they are after. SilkTork (talk) 02:56, 9 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
It seems absurd to me to define a manor in terms of manorialism. Like defining a fief in terms of feudalism. Does manorialism exist by definition wherever there are manors? Srnec (talk) 02:12, 10 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I think we are in agreement, which is why I feel manor should redirect to a disamb page. The word has multiple meanings, only one of which is that a manor is a unit in manorialism. A manor is often understood to be a house - generally the main house in the area, often called The Manor, even though it may never have been the official manor house, sometimes a house and the estate around it (would could be distinct from manorialism - just a house and estate which never had a manor court, etc), in slang a manor is a person's local area, etc. Better for us to deal with each of the meanings of manor in their own articles than to try and explain it all in one article and to have a disamb page allowing people to find the actual meaning they were looking for, and also to see that there are other potential meanings. This article, manorialism, isn't about manor, it is about the manor system. I don't think the manor system itself is one of the possible definitions of manor.
Ah. I see! I have now made a slight adjustment in what I wrote on the 9th - changing "the" for "one". I had the previous manor article in my mind as I wrote that, which did attempt to describe a manor simply as a unit in manorialism, ignoring the other possible meanings - see [1]. SilkTork (talk) 08:44, 11 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

English Dialect

[edit]

An anonymous IP address has changed some of the spelling of certain words of the article to match British spelling. I would argue that, while reverting their changes was the right thing to do, we should make clear which dialect the article is written in and under MOS:TIES there is a strong tie to Britain and England and thus British English should be the correct dialect for the Article. I would be happy to make the necessary edits if there is consensus. Jtrrs0 (talk) 16:17, 5 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Was thinking that actually ... I have a slight preference for British English here (because they were used in England), but don't mind that much either way. Graham87 16:32, 5 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, I just think it makes the most sense. I'll leave this up for a couple days to see if anyone thinks otherwise and then I'll make the change.
Agree. SilkTork (talk) 09:01, 6 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, I think that there is enough consensus to do the change. I have added the BE template to the top of this page and will start making the language of the main article consistent.Jtrrs0 (talk) 12:06, 6 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Pirenne-these

[edit]

The Pirenne-these has been disproved. 134.58.253.20 (talk) 14:08, 9 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This comment refers to this edit about Henri Pirenne's thesis (that's the English word, but it seems it's called a "these" in Dutch). I know very little about the subject but that seems like a reasonable edit to make. Graham87 (talk) 14:58, 9 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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