Talk:Manorialism

Merge from Manor

In theory, a manor is one component of manorialism, but in practice that article goes into the same depth of social context as this one does about manorialism in general, and this one goes into the same depth about the parts and operation of a manor. The details of coverage are somewhat different, so I think it makes sense for the two to be merged under the more general topic, which will spend much of its length talking about its core component. -- Beland (talk) 06:31, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

Agree. SilkTork (talk) 09:02, 6 March 2021 (UTC)

Useful content has been merged, and the manor title has been restored to a disambiguation page, which it originally was. SilkTork (talk) 09:49, 6 March 2021 (UTC)

It hasn't been a dab page since 2011. I think there is a primary meaning and I wonder why "manorialism" (the construct) is deemed the appropriate title for the main article. Srnec (talk) 02:02, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

I think it is worth having a discussion on the name. I expect that the average reader would not be that familiar with the term "manorialism". I think they would be more familiar with the term "manor system" or, less so, "manorial system". Manorial system is an existing redirect so I have added it as an alternative name in the lead. I am unsure about using "manor" as the name for this article as people commonly conflate "manor house" with "manor" so the term "manor" for some readers means the house not the land nor the manorial system. We could have a quick straw poll here and see if it's worth going to a full name change discussion.

Which name do people feel is most appropriate for this article:

Manor

Manorialism

Manor system

Manorial system

I have a slight personal preference for Manor system as I think that is easier to understand, but it's not the most common term in reliable sources. Reliable sources mostly use Manorialism, and as that is the existing name, that is the one I feel is most appropriate. I don't think using Manor would be appropriate as "manor" is a unit of land in manorialism (or the manor system), so "manor" is only a part of what this article is about. However, it's not worth having a separate article on "manor" as the [one] explanation for what a manor is would be this article, so the two articles would essentially just duplicate each other. I am also not keen on having Manor redirect here as the primary term, because enough people use "manor" to mean the big house, rather than the unit of land belonging to "manorialism" that they may get confused landing here after typing "manor" to get to an article on manor house, whereas at the moment they land on the disamb page and can quickly and easily find what they are after. SilkTork (talk) 02:56, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

It seems absurd to me to define a manor in terms of manorialism. Like defining a fief in terms of feudalism. Does manorialism exist by definition wherever there are manors? Srnec (talk) 02:12, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

I think we are in agreement, which is why I feel manor should redirect to a disamb page. The word has multiple meanings, only one of which is that a manor is a unit in manorialism. A manor is often understood to be a house - generally the main house in the area, often called The Manor, even though it may never have been the official manor house, sometimes a house and the estate around it (would could be distinct from manorialism - just a house and estate which never had a manor court, etc), in slang a manor is a person's local area, etc. Better for us to deal with each of the meanings of manor in their own articles than to try and explain it all in one article and to have a disamb page allowing people to find the actual meaning they were looking for, and also to see that there are other potential meanings. This article, manorialism, isn't about manor, it is about the manor system. I don't think the manor system itself is one of the possible definitions of manor.

Ah. I see! I have now made a slight adjustment in what I wrote on the 9th - changing "the" for "one". I had the previous manor article in my mind as I wrote that, which did attempt to describe a manor simply as a unit in manorialism, ignoring the other possible meanings - see [1]. SilkTork (talk) 08:44, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

English Dialect

An anonymous IP address has changed some of the spelling of certain words of the article to match British spelling. I would argue that, while reverting their changes was the right thing to do, we should make clear which dialect the article is written in and under MOS:TIES there is a strong tie to Britain and England and thus British English should be the correct dialect for the Article. I would be happy to make the necessary edits if there is consensus. Jtrrs0 (talk) 16:17, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

Was thinking that actually ... I have a slight preference for British English here (because they were used in England), but don't mind that much either way. Graham87 16:32, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, I just think it makes the most sense. I'll leave this up for a couple days to see if anyone thinks otherwise and then I'll make the change.

Agree. SilkTork (talk) 09:01, 6 March 2021 (UTC)

Ok, I think that there is enough consensus to do the change. I have added the BE template to the top of this page and will start making the language of the main article consistent.Jtrrs0 (talk) 12:06, 6 March 2021 (UTC)

Pirenne-these

The Pirenne-these has been disproved. 134.58.253.20 (talk) 14:08, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

This comment refers to this edit about Henri Pirenne's thesis (that's the English word, but it seems it's called a "these" in Dutch). I know very little about the subject but that seems like a reasonable edit to make. Graham87 (talk) 14:58, 9 November 2023 (UTC)