Talk:Ian Woosnam

Untitled

Until some one can work his birth place in to the main article cleanly (as required by the style manual), I'm removing his birth place. He was born in Oswestry, England)

Until just now, the article said that he got an OBE in 1992. Since he's just been awarded one in the 2007 New Years Honours List, that can't have been correct; the point is now moot, but presumably that was an MBE? -- Arwel (talk) 01:33, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Question - The article says he's a 'Welsh' golfer. How is he Welsh if he was born in England, lived in England and played at a golf club partly in England? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.195.36.40 (talk) 04:53, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

The question about his Welsh nationality is best asked under the talk point below, 'Nationality'.Cloptonson (talk) 05:53, 16 July 2021 (UTC)Cloptonson (talk) 05:46, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

Nationality

I've changed Welsh to British. He was born in England and spent his childhood there. He grew up in England. He lives in Jersey. The Woosnam family are English. Cheshire Tiger (talk) 06:38, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

Editors' personal experiences, interpretations, or opinions do not belong on Wikipedia. Whatever our views, we go with the sources, per WP:VERIFY. And the sources say Ian Woosnam is Welsh. Not just the Welsh media, e.g. walesonline, Daily Post, South Wales Argus, but newspapers across the world e.g. El País, New York Times, Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung, Sydney Morning Herald, The Globe and Mail (Canada), etc., etc. Even the Daily Mail and The Daily Telegraph (not well known for their Welsh sympathies) along with the other London papers, (e.g. The Independent) consider him Welsh. I have reverted to show his nationality as Welsh. Daicaregos (talk) 13:03, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

I thought you might. Now how about changing Geoffrey Howe from British to Welsh? After all he was born in Wales (unlike Ian Woosnam) to Welsh parents. Or perhaps he doesn't fit the image? I met Phil Woosnam once and he certainly came across as Welsh and was born in Wales. As for two other family members, both Max Woosnam, I see that one is called English, the other British. Talking about image, you'll see that the Oirish brigade are keen on Peter O'Toole but not Chris de Burgh ("not one of us"). Cheshire Tiger (talk) 18:20, 8 November 2015 (UTC)

The trouble is that this issue of "sporting nationality" and the associated little flags has been discussed so many times over the years that most of us regular contributors are pretty bored with the subject. There's plenty of discussion in Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Golf and the archives of it, if you're interested. The current situation is well established in the golfing sphere. Basically we use little Welsh flags because it's very widespread, see eg http://www.europeantour.com/europeantour/players/playerid=210/index.html#R0KSa4fEoFDk6JZE.97 for a little Welsh flag for Ian Woosnam. Here we're only interested in golfing use which generally separates the four home nations. It doesn't necessarily relate to legal nationality or where someone was born or lived, just common usage. As to other spheres, they have their own rules and the separate four nations are often not used. see eg Andy Murray talk page for much discussion about whether he's Scottish or British. Seems he's British in Tennis terms but if he'd played golf instead he would be Scottish. Nigej (talk) 18:55, 8 November 2015 (UTC)

Yes, it is boring. But whether or not one regards Woosnam as Welsh or English, he is indisputably British. That might be a safer option. But if someone is desperate to claim him as Welsh, well, that's Wikipedia for you. The entries and talk on Geoffrey Howe, Peter O'Toole and Chris de Burgh bear this out. Incidentally, are English, Scottish and Welsh "legal nationalities"? Cheshire Tiger (talk) 18:18, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

Here we don't claim him, we simply copy what everyone else does; which is very easy when they all agree. Nigej (talk) 19:47, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

I'm not sure where "here" is, but someone is claiming that an English-born golfer is Welsh (as opposed to British). It might be "very easy when they all agree", but obviously they often don't.Poshseagull (talk) 12:45, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

Here=Wikipedia. Nigej (talk) 13:22, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

I too am intrigued. Is he ethnically Welsh? Sports have their own rules about right to represent countries in competitions. (I am familiar with regard to football that players can represent Wales if they play for clubs within the Wales Football Association or have parental family associations with Wales or are born in Wales but I do not know the rules with golf.) I always understood him to be English, he is claimed as a native of Shropshire (admittedly my own home county.) Clearly he has opted to represent Wales with the agreement of the relevant sport governing body. Might it be nearer the truth to describe him as an England-born Welsh player or a player representing Wales?Cloptonson (talk) 05:53, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

As noted above the reason his sporting nationality is given as Welsh (in the infobox) is that that is how he is regarded in the golfing world. See eg https://www.europeantour.com/players/210/ or this scorecard for a recent event he played in: https://www.europeantour.com/legends-tour/farmfoods-european-legends-links-championship-2021/results?round=3 which has a Welsh flag next to him. Generally the lede reflects that. We don't generally add the English-born (or whatever), the place of birth being in the infobox anyway. This issue has come up countless times over the years. See eg Sandy Lyle, Rory Sabbatini. Our generally principle has been to not over-analyse the issue, that's not our role. If he's got a Welsh flag next to him, he's Welsh. Nigej (talk) 06:26, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

The Woosnam family are not English, Ian Woosnam descends from the landed gentry Woosnams of Cefnllysgwynne, Brecknockshire. His mother's family hail from Welshpool.

It is also worth noting that Oswestry and the surrounding area of Shropshire has such a strong Welsh identity that many in Oswestry mistakenly believe they live, or ought to live, in Wales. Oswestry retains an indigenous English-born Welsh speaking community.

Some sources

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FEjF3lHAqMQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wW0sGQUCsJM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQMs0luCPw0 80.192.37.143 (talk) 13:16, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

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