Talk:Paschal troparion

Untitled

The first section says that the Paschal troparion is usually sung in Tone Five, and 'Tone' is wiki-linked to Oktoechos. But if you follow the link to the Oktoechos page, no "Tone Five" is mentioned. There is a First Tone, Second, Third, Fourth, and then Plagal First, etc. So the reference is confusing, and the term "Tone Five" remains undefined despite its being linked to an article that is ostensibly supposed to explain it. Does it refer to Plagal First Tone? Huttarl (talk) 19:19, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Text and Translations

As to the changes made by McGeddon, they have been reverted (however not by me). Edit description given by him:

Text and translations: cut list of translations per WP:NOT#DICT - how the text made its way into English is of automatic relevance to the English language Wikipedia, but the same does not apply to other languages

McGeddon stated that the article did not adhere to WP:NOT#DICT, this is incorrect as I will state below. The rules in question:

1. Definitions. Articles should begin with a good definition or description, but articles that contain nothing more than a definition should be expanded with additional encyclopedic content. If they cannot, Wikipedia is not the place for them: look to Wiktionary instead.
2. Dictionary entries. Encyclopedia articles are about a person, or a group, a concept, a place, a thing, an event, etc. In some cases, a word or phrase itself may be an encyclopedic subject, such as Macedonia (terminology) or truthiness. However, articles rarely, if ever, contain more than one distinct definition or usage of the article's title. Articles about the cultural or mathematical significance of individual numbers are also acceptable.
   For a wiki that is a dictionary, visit our sister project Wiktionary. Dictionary definitions should be transwikied there.
3. Usage, slang, and/or idiom guides. Descriptive articles about languages, dialects, or types of slang (such as Klingon language, Cockney, or Leet) are desirable. Prescriptive guides for prospective speakers of such languages are not. See "Wikipedia is not a manual, guidebook, textbook, or scientific journal" below for more information. For a wiki that is a collection of textbooks, visit our sister project Wikibooks. Prescriptive guides for prospective speakers of a language should be transwikied there.

Here are some further elaborations on the topic:

From Dictionary:

A dictionary is a collection of words in one or more specific languages, often listed alphabetically (or by radical and stroke for ideographic languages), with usage information, definitions, etymologies, phonetics, pronunciations, and other information; or a book of words in one language with their equivalents in another, also known as a lexicon.

From Wikipedia is not a dictionary:

Each article in an encyclopedia is about a person, a people, a concept, a place, an event, a thing etc., whereas a dictionary entry is primarily about a word, an idiom, or a term and its meanings, usage and history. In some cases, a word or phrase itself may be an encyclopedic subject, such as Macedonia (terminology) or truthiness.

It is clear from the above that listing translations into several languages for a particular text (which is lengthier than a single word, phrase, or idiom) are not the same thing as a dictionary entry which provides for meaning, usage, and history. What would fall under the category of a dictionary entry is a single word, short phrase, or idiom. I would go so far as to say that a list of translations of a text, would in fact, not be permitted on wiktionary. Also, a list of translations are not usage/slang/idiom guides. In short, the content in question does not meet Wikipedia's own definition to qualify for the rules above. There appear to be no rules which handle this circumstance.

It is also clear that McGeddon is not aware of the multiculturalism in the ecclessiology of the Eastern Orthodox Church in the US and in other English speaking countries, as the churches use both English and other langauges on average. It is also the common practice of the Orthodox in English speaking countries to sing the Paschal Troparion during Pascha in every language represented in a parish. Another thing to note is that the text used by each Jurisdiction varies as the texts were translated from other intermediate languages, not just from the Greek.

The translations are informative and can be of interest to multicultural English readers. It also bypasses the difficulty of having to go to an alternate language wikipedia to find the paschal tropar in said language (there may not even be an article for it). However I would reccomend reformatting the translation section, to not be as long. Perhaps use a table so that the translation and transliteration are side by side.

As the section does not violate Wikipedia guidelines, future attempts to remove the section will be reverted.

Iceflow19 (talk) 00:05, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

WP:NOTDICDEF makes several references to translations of individual words and idioms being appropriate for Wiktionary and inappropriate for Wikipedia - it's not clear how that scales up to paragraphs. --McGeddon (talk) 09:47, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

References

2019 removal

Hello, I have removed all the unsourced translations, which only leaves the Hebrew version. This is because the translations need to be based on a reliable secondary source. This should not be difficult if the translations have been duly promulgated in liturgical texts for their respective cultures and Churches. But since these translations have been hacked away for years by anons, I have no confidence that they are accurate and reflect faithful translations from the Greek or whatever other original languages they were composed in. I welcome additions, as long as they are cited to a good RS. Thanks! Elizium23 (talk) 04:15, 10 July 2019 (UTC)

• Church Slavonic will definitely have to be removed, as there is no written version of this troparion. All of these translations should fall under common knowledge. Anyone in a country that speaks a different language will know their language version. There are citations that match various languages, and Hebrew is now without a proper citation Cooluncle55 (talk) 03:05, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

  "Common knowledge" doesn't help the English-speaking laymen of Wikipedia. Often, anonymous IPs come here and change the text of foreign-language passages without citing a source, and so who do you trust? We need these texts to be verifiable independently by those who do not already "commonly" know them or speak the language.

  In fact, I question the need to have extensive translations here anyway. This is the ENGLISH Wikipedia and we document English-language topics. There is no need to translate the troparia here when there may be other Wikipedia projects that have them in their native languages. Elizium23 (talk) 03:12, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

  The Orthodox attempt to sing this hymn in as many languages as possible. Also, not all Orthodox churches, even within the English speaking world, conduct the Liturgy completely in English. Most Orthodox in the United States and Canada, I would presume, only know enough of a foreign language to sing in it, not read Wikipedia articles in a foreign language. Many translations are available at https://www.oca.org/liturgics/music-downloads/pascha Cooluncle55 (talk) 02:08, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Aramaic

I just add the first line (of three) in Aramaic. Could please someone add the missing line and provide information, whether the are used in church or not. Thanks94.222.17.15 (talk) 13:43, 21 April 2019 (UTC)