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A fact from Feral cat appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 15 August 2004. The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that the average lifespan of a feral cat who survives kittenhood is two years, compared to 16 years for house cats?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2004/August.

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A summary of this article appears in Cat.

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Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 2 February 2021 and 17 March 2021. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Jmm26. Peer reviewers: Cbeedy.

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Semi-protected edit request 20 February 2022

Since towns and cities are part of these animals' range, Category:Urban wildlife seems appropriate. 151.177.58.208 (talk) 01:23, 20 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Information incomplete

I think this wiki doesn’t include a neutral and completed information about the feral cat. The author is only talking about one case that some unowned cats don’t like to be with people so they would rather live in the wild world. However, there’re some unowned cat which is stray cat which means that they’re being homeless might be abandoned by their pet owner and they dont have any ability to feed themselves. Moreover, the author holds a strong opinions on the feral cat which choose the article about how it have negative impact on the wild animals. Moreover, the topic is only limiting in the range of western country. The author didnt talk about the stray cat situation in Asia especially like Japan and China. In my opinion, I think stray cat and feral cat are two different topic based on my own research and knowledge. I think they’re both under the topic about unowned cat but they should be separated.X5mao (talk) 07:23, 25 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

X5mao this article is based on the best available sources, so personal opinions and feelings toward cats are not relevant. Geogene (talk) 12:08, 25 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

For this same reason I reinstated this. Geogene personal opinions are WP:OR and not RS. Neighborhoodcats is a source and so you need to provide a better one. It is inconceivable that vet care is other than rare but occurring. Invasive Spices (talk) 26 April 2022 (UTC)

Neighborhoodcats is a self-published advocacy source, so no, it is not usable here. Geogene (talk) 16:31, 26 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Additionally, this edit summary is the one you claim is original research (the OR claim appears to apply exclusively to an edit summary, which is not my understanding of what counts as OR) But this is the edit summary in question: they "may" receive any level of veterinary care, but usually don't. In practice it's difficult to trap the same cat twice, and TNR programs usually aren't even able to keep them up to date on their rabies boosters. Also, sourced to a self-published advocacy group.[1]

Here is that summary broken up into its constituent statements, and sourced:

Colony cats usually don't receive medical care. (admittedly, this one depends on what you mean by veterinary care. For example, does fish antibiotics administered by untrained caretakers count as "medical care"?) Sources: [2], Source quote: Because of the difficulty of catching cats more than once, most studies use visual assessments of TNR cats to determine the health of the cats. [3]
In practice, it's difficult to trap the same cat twice Source: [4] a source quote: Recapturing feral cats can be very difficult because the cats become trap shy.
TNR programs usually aren't even able to keep them up to date on their rabies boosters. Source: [5] Source quote: While feral cats that are returned to TNR colonies have been vaccinated for rabies, they are unlikely (if trap shy) to get the necessary booster shots, which means that these cats do not have life-long immunity to rabies. Another source and source quote: Some TNR advocates argue that vaccination is not a good return on investment and that resources should instead be directed toward spaying and neutering. Ninety thousand feral cats were released into California without vaccinating them for rabies, despite bat and skunk rabies being endemic within this state. [6]

I'm not seeing any "original research" here, and this is more about there not being any requirement to put cites in edit summaries, but I do see an unreliable advocacy source that was re-added to the article for no good reason. Geogene (talk) 22:29, 26 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 21 August 2022

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In section 4.3 Diet, paragraph 2: "Although some people advocate for feral cats as a means to control pigeons and invasive rodents like the house mouse and brown rat, these cosmopolitan species co-evolved with cats in human-disturbed environments, and so have an advantage over native rodents in evading cat predation."

Change to: "In the United States, some people advocate for feral cats as a means to control pigeons and invasive rodents like the house mouse and brown rat. However, these cosmopolitan species co-evolved with cats in human-disturbed environments, and so have an advantage over native rodents in evading cat predation."

This is because native and invasive are relative terms and require geographical specificity to be meaningful. Panickyintheuk (talk) 16:12, 21 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Done. --Mvqr (talk) 16:24, 21 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 5 November 2022

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Please fix the name of Christopher A. Lepczyk. Here [7] it says "Lepczyk", and in the article text it says Lepcyzk. "Lepcyzk" is completely unpronounceable, as opposed to "Lepczyk" that sounds quite natural to a Polish speaker. Christopher's ORCID page also says "Lepczyk" [8]. Grzejab (talk) 15:55, 5 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 26 January 2023

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To accurately summarize the findings in the citations used, please change:

"Scientific evidence has demonstrated that TNR is not effective at controlling feral cat populations.[5][6]"

to

"Scientific evidence has demonstrated that TNR is not always effective at controlling feral cat populations unless all colony members can be sterilized, and surgeries can keep up with the rate of cats abandoned by owners.[5][6]" Bachboy (talk) 23:25, 26 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Source 5 says, Our research adds further evidence to the growing body of scientific literature indicating that TNR is ineffective in reducing cat populations. [9] and Source 6 says, In theory, sterilizing enough cats so that the birth rate is less than the death rate would reduce the cat population in a given area. However, this assumes a closed population, a phenomenon that has not been observed in any of the studies....The practice of TNR and the establishment of TNR colonies is neither humane nor proven to be effective at reducing feral cat populations. [10]. Geogene (talk) 01:04, 27 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 18 February 2023

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46.196.193.165 (talk) 10:15, 18 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Add line to the paragraph as there has been no consensus about feral cats impact on wildlife and many of researches about that issue is biased or wrong like mentioned in this scientific paper.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31087701/

Not done: The relevant section contains enough equivocation already the importance of this effect remains controversial. small jars tc 10:29, 18 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

That's an interesting opinion piece. But when people find themselves typing something very close to 'we are not science deniers' in a journal, I think it's fair to wonder whether the viewpoint they're defending has any significant following at all. Geogene (talk) 14:56, 18 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Wiki Education assignment: Conservation biology

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 10 January 2023 and 21 April 2023. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Acryan1 (article contribs). Peer reviewers: Ldonahue3254.

— Assignment last updated by Mcking24 (talk) 13:55, 23 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Bias Against TNR

This article seems a little biased against TNR, or perhaps misses some of the considerations involved. For example, it seems to completely dismiss any ethical objections to killing feral cats or even risks of mistakenly killing small wild cats (or strays or outdoor domestic cats). It seems like it might make more sense to discuss the pros and cons of TNR, killing, and not interfering. To explain what I mean, you might compare feral cats to humans or conversely to deer. All three are overpopulated and cause some amount of environmental harm, but different solutions are considered acceptable. That is to say, I'm not suggesting we treat all three groups the same, but that discussing this in terms of purely effectiveness is missing a key component of the debate. I think it is a mistake to treat this as a question to which there is one correct answer. Hopefully this makes sense. 173.66.202.193 (talk) 15:55, 10 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

From the published literature I've seen on it, TNR as a means of controlling feral cat populations is not particularly well respected in the scientific literature. As for ethics, Ive read some published commentary out there that TNR is unethical because it perpetuates feral cats in the environment at the expense of the birds and other prey animals that feral cats kill. Basically, feral cat advocates must address why, if we don't treat birds as individual beings, whose individual welfare matters, then why should we treat cats that way? And they must do so in a logical and not emotive argument. There are also widely repeated claims in the literature that TNR is abusive towards the cats themselves, because their lives tend to involve a lot of suffering. All of this is a tough hurdle for TNR advocates to overcome, especially since nearly all pro-TNR sourcing is from feral cat advocacy groups that exist for no other purpose than to perpetuate TNR, and these sources not preferred for Wikipedia articles. Unfortunately, this article continues to give WP:UNDUE weight to the views of cat advocacy and humane organizations. Geogene (talk) 16:42, 10 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I suppose at this point we get into the trolley car problem. 173.66.202.193 (talk) 06:12, 12 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"feral cat advocates must address ..." This kind of political argument has nothing to do with writing and improving the article Feral cat, which is what this talk page is for. This is not a forum for general argumentation about any cause, pro or con. "it might make more sense to discuss the pros and cons of TNR, killing, and not interfering": Not unless the reliable sources we are relying on are doing so; just making up such arguments ourselves would be original research. "this article continues to give WP:UNDUE weight to the views of cat advocacy and humane organizations": That's just a statement of opinion without an argument or evidence backing it up. (Versus the eother editor's statement of opinion of "This article seems a little biased against TNR", i.e. in the opposite direction.) — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 06:28, 12 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@SMcCandlish:, let me know if you don't find any claims of fact I made above in this recent literature review [11]. I'm pretty sure it's all covered there. Geogene (talk) 12:28, 12 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Citing one source is not laying out a WP:UNDUE case. And trying to shift the onus onto external third parties with stuff like "feral cat advocates must address ..." isn't doing it either (nor is the opposing "ethical objections to killing feral cats ..."). These are all extraneous assertions about what kinds of arguments external third parties should be addressing, and don't have anything to do with the policy basis for our own article's balance. You may well be correct in the long run about the DUE balance, but neither of you are making the case properly. I would suggesting asking for input at WP:NPOVN. Actually, I'll just do it myself. This topic would benefit from more eyes and minds on it. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 14:20, 12 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

What exactly do you suggest to change (add/remove) in the article and what sources back it? Alaexis_¿question? 08:52, 15 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Looking through the history of the article, "Control and Management" was originally just "TNR for management", and over time, critism has been peppered throughout it - so instead of saying "these are the pros, these are the cons", it's now muddled and doesn't present the information in an organized matter - it's all muddled. In addition - sources like this "Culling cats 'may do more harm than good'" were removed right off the page. [12] Removing this one and adding another article by the exact same source doesn't really speak to reliability as an issue, but the POV of each article.

"Is TNR successful" depends on the goals of TNR. If the goal is "making a cities animal control more cost effective" the result of the study will be different from "did TNR protect a specific species of bird that is endangered." Denaar (talk) 13:44, 16 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

We also have a POV-fork. TNR should be mentioned on this article, but we have an ENTIRE article on Trap–neuter–return - so we shouldn't have such a long piece on it here, people should go to the main article to read up on it. Denaar (talk) 16:04, 16 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This page started out as a pro-TNR/anti-culling screed, so yes, some low quality sources will have been removed. Other parts have yet to be improved, retain the pro-TNR POV. This article should cover control and management of feral cats, including lethal control. I'm also not sure how animal control programs can be considered more successful by intentionally not controlling animals, that seems very strange to me. Geogene (talk) 17:47, 16 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I have to strongly concur with the idea that this material needs to be culled (pun intended), WP:SUMMARY style, with a {{Main|Trap–neuter–return}} hatnote in the section, because WP:CFORKing is not good, but that's what's going on here. The very process of reducing the redundant material to a summary will resolve (unless an unskilled editor tries it) the problem of the section having gotten disorganized. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 23:36, 16 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

SMcCandlish I'm not sure who your "unskilled editor" remark is aimed at, but I have an idea, and it makes me think you should probably try to summarize it yourself. Geogene (talk) 23:52, 16 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Had no one in mind at all, actually. I was just making the humor point that producing a WP:SUMMARY isn't actually guaranteed to result in a well-organized result. :-) Anyay, I probably actually could do a reasonable job of it, but have a lot on my plate already, and perhaps the ongoing discussions here and at the TNR article should settle out a bit first. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 23:55, 16 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This is not an issue with two equally weighted options- TNR is provably ineffective at best and compounds the issue at worst. There are no pros to 'not interfering' with invasive cats lol. Your bias against aggressive population control methods is clear- the correct term is culling not killing, and it's demonstratably the only method that can make a dent in feral populations- hence why some of the worst-affected countries like Australia have culling programs. Feral cats are one of the most devastating invasive species, and can't be compared to deers or humans- also human population control is not a legitimate conservation method (obviously) so mentioning it is moot. This article is actually in better condition than some other cat ones (like the Farm Cat) page that are heavily biased. Minty420 (talk) 08:54, 20 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

And your bias against TNR is equally clear. Our "job" here is to summarize the dispute as captured in the modern, independent, reliable, secondary sources on the matter, not just repeat activistic primary-source opinions from blowhards on either side, much less pick a side as Wikipedia's "stance", but to give them due weight according to the preponderance of the source treatment. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 23:26, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Felixer and Curiosity data added in Spanish article

First, apologies for my bad English. I've added some data with reference in the section "Australia", but I can't do the same here due to the protection from edition. Can anyone add the text below? I've also published the article Felixer related to this subject

For these reasons, eradication campaigns are carried out in Australia using various methods; the most widespread, through the use of a bait specially designed to not affect native carnivores, called Curiosity, which contains the poison called compound 1080—sodium fluoroacetate—with a special encapsulation that only breaks with cats' teeth. (Reference: https://www.dcceew.gov.au/environment/invasive-species/feral-animals-australia/feral-cats/curiosity-bait )

More recently, a device called Felixer has been developed, which uses the same poison and differentiates between cats and the rest of the fauna, and takes advantage of the cat's grooming behavior to shoot a measured dose of a gel with poison on its fur.

Thanks. Linuxmanía (talk) 12:50, 24 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This is promising, but the citation needs to be properly formatted (Template:Cite web), and the second claim needs a source. Also "that only breaks with cats' teeth" not a plausible claim; maybe something like "designed to break with cats' teeth in particular" or something otherwise more moderate. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 14:27, 24 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Traslation of the Feral Cat Related pages and Cat Impact on australia and Wildlife

Is a real Shame that one of the most relevant and visited pages of wikipedia, the pages about feral cats and their impact, are not traslated in the language of one of the nations with the worst situation regarding cats. Cat popolation in italy are one of the worst about control. There is a gigantic ignorance about the environmental impact caused in the world by cats, the Italian people see stray cats as pets that roam happily, not as harmful invasive species. I have very limited resource to traslate propely the pages, i try to put the google-traslated pages, to make the pages exist, but wikipedia reject pages auto-traslated. Please make these pages exist. Make appear the FACTS about Cat damages.

make a way to WARN ITALIAN PEOPLE that feral cat problems ARE REAL AND HAVE TO BE WORRIED ABOUT IT.

PLEASE STOP THIS DEVASTATING IGNORANCE. Eastriverotter62 (talk) 20:03, 30 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Eastriverotter62: Yelling about off-site problems in ALL CAPITALS is not going to inspire anyone to do this work for you. And it is work, a lot of it. This is English Wikipedia, and we're all busy improving it for our English-speaking audience. If you think an article is important to translate from en.wikipedia to it.wikipedia, then that is something to bring up among editors at it.wikipedia (probably at https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Richieste_di_traduzione), or just start doing the work yourself. Machine translators like Google Translate have improved a lot with AI over the last couple of years, and are a good way to get started. You seem to have enough English youself to detect problems in the translation. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 06:26, 1 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The only way i have to edit it is through chrome in desktop mode on android. Try yourself what it means. Edit a paragraph can take Hours and put reference links is near to impossible.

Traslate the page is relevant to give people fact about the annihilation that cat does on italy, in italy is near to be like australia, here is cats overpupulaton everywere but people deny the annihilation caused by cats because the lack of information about it, and here is like a cat hell.

There are a why if in the wikia most of the cat pictures comes from italy, here is a real crazy cat lady hell, you have no idea. Eastriverotter62 (talk) 11:46, 1 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Repeat: If you think an article is important to translate from en.wikipedia to it.wikipedia, then that is something to bring up among editors at it.wikipedia (probably at https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Richieste_di_traduzione). — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 00:20, 2 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Invasive species

There is no reason for this to be a section. What little we can use from this reverted edit simply belongs at or near the top of the "Effects on wildlife" section (and really that section should move to be a subsection of "Behavior and ecology"; it's confusing for them to be widely separated like this, since their effect on wildlife is a subtopic of their ecology). The salvageable material from the reverted edit is probably only the following (after deletion of WP:OR editorializing against a source, removal of blathering about what the source's purposes are, some formatting cleanup, and following the source material much more closely):

Cats are an invasive species wordwide, and are included on the International Union for Conservation of Nature's "100 of the World's Worst Invasive Alien Species" list^[1]^[2] of human-introduced animals and plants having serious effects on biodiversity. Cats were listed for their widespread predation on birds and other wildlife, mostly by feral populations, with effects most severe on islands where native species evolved without predators.^[3]

References

^ Invasive Species Specialist Group (2023). "100 of the World's Worst Invasive Alien Species". Global Invasive Species Database. Species Survival Commission, International Union for Conservation of Nature. Archived from the original on 30 October 2023. Retrieved 11 December 2023.
^ Lowe, S.; Browne, M.; Boudjelas, S.; De Poorter, M.; Invasive Species Specialist Group (November 2004) [12 December 2000]. "100 of the World's Worst Invasive Alien Species: A Selection from the Global Invasive Species Database" (PDF). ISSG.org. Species Survival Commission, International Union for Conservation of Nature. Archived from the original (PDF) on 5 February 2009. Cats are listed both in the currently maintained online version (previously cited) and this original publication.
^ Invasive Species Specialist Group (2023). "Species profile: Felis catus". Global Invasive Species Database. Species Survival Commission, International Union for Conservation of Nature. Retrieved 22 December 2023.

This would actually be a good first sentence for the section.

The reste of the material Xhkvfq tried to add is more off-topic blathering about the nature of the "100" list (this is not the 100 of the World's Worst Invasive Alien Species article), personal opinion-mongering about how it must be interpreted, and what amounts to excuse-making for cats by pointing fingers at other species that are not the subject of this article. That was inappropriate material and it was right to revert it.

I'll take up the policy problems with Xhkvfq's approach at User talk:Xhkvfq. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 23:21, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

PS: If someone thinks a particular source has reliability issues, that should be raised on the article talk page, and if the matter cannot be ironed out, then it goes to WP:Reliable sources noticeboard. But if anyone thinks IUCN is going to be ruled unreliable, they are in for a rude awakening. I'm the first to say that they have to be given due weight as a conservation agency, which is not the same thing as a neutral scientific journal or the like; but the weight due them in this topic area is quite heavy. What's not okay at all is trying to gin up a false perception of widespread disagreement with IUCN in other reliable sources when there is no real-world evidence of this. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 00:17, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Stray and feral

Stray and feral cats are not the same thing, and the way this article is written is misleading and contributing to a lot of misinformation. I've raised domesticated cats from the time they were kittens, strays, and ferals. A stray cat can revert to a domesticated cat, but a feral cat cannot, although it will give the superficial appearance of resembling a domestic or a stray to a casual observer, their behavior is not the same and they have altogether different reactions to their environment. A domestic cat raised from the appropriate young age will exhibit highly socialized, dog-like behavior. A stray, if it experienced this kind of early socialization, will also exhibit much of the same behavior, with certain caveats. A feral may mimic some of this behavior to an observer, but does not actually engage in it, it's kind of like going through the motions since it knows it will get food, treats, or pets. Viriditas (talk) 01:53, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

[1] Invasive Species Specialist Group (2023). "100 of the World's Worst Invasive Alien Species". Global Invasive Species Database. Species Survival Commission, International Union for Conservation of Nature. Archived from the original on 30 October 2023. Retrieved 11 December 2023.

[2] Lowe, S.; Browne, M.; Boudjelas, S.; De Poorter, M.; Invasive Species Specialist Group (November 2004) [12 December 2000]. "100 of the World's Worst Invasive Alien Species: A Selection from the Global Invasive Species Database" (PDF). ISSG.org. Species Survival Commission, International Union for Conservation of Nature. Archived from the original (PDF) on 5 February 2009. Cats are listed both in the currently maintained online version (previously cited) and this original publication.

[3] Invasive Species Specialist Group (2023). "Species profile: Felis catus". Global Invasive Species Database. Species Survival Commission, International Union for Conservation of Nature. Retrieved 22 December 2023.

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-{{Vital article|class=B|level=5|topic=Biology|subpage=Animals|link=Wikipedia:Vital articles/Level/5/Biological and health sciences/Animals|anchor=Felines (27 articles)}}
-{{WikiProject Cats|class=B|importance=high}}
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@@ Line 13: / Line 14: @@
 {{small|Above undated message substituted from [[Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment]] by [[User:PrimeBOT|PrimeBOT]] ([[User talk:PrimeBOT|talk]]) 21:20, 16 January 2022 (UTC)}}
-== Think entire rewrite or major changes are needed. ==
-[[User:Samantha Michaels|Samantha Michaels]] ([[User talk:Samantha Michaels|talk]]) 01:53, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
-Many of these citations are incorrect - the references are clearly about "free-roaming cats" or "community cats" which encompasses feral, strays (owned but either escaped, lost, or allowed to roam) and/or abandoned or dumped cats. The last categories may or may not be feral. Some are citations of web-based pages that give no references. For some that do, back-tracking to the actual citation shows that the quoted section is arbitrarily edited and misleading. Some citations are simply not verifiable (not available).
-The photo captioned "a colony of feral cats" is misleading. The source simply notes these as "stray" cats - they may or may not be feral.
-I did do an entire rewrite, posted it, and clearly mis-stepped doing so because it was deleted.
-I followed all the old citations/references. Even went within them and backtracked internally referenced citations. I deleted unsupported info and added more current citations. I'm fine with none or any or all of it being used, but very much want to see this article more reflective of Wiki standards of reliable references/sources with clarification on how "feral" is referred to as opposed to "free-roaming" or "stray."
-A prime example is the highlighted teaching point on the header of this page stating a feral cat's lifespan of being 2 years. I could find NO study that supports or claims that. Some studies give the lifespans of the cats they followed, but this included all "free-roaming" or "community cats" in the study (not necessarily "feral") and is only based on the ones that didn't disappear. The citation in the main article on lifespan leads to the ASPCA's website, which is about "community cats." They define these as: "Cats born and raised in the wild." and "Cats who have been abandoned or lost and turned to wild ways in order to survive." The 1st potion - "born in the wild" - is likely feral, the second may or may not be. This ASPCA page does not use the word "feral." They do not provide any references/citations for info in the article. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Samantha Michaels|Samantha Michaels]] ([[User talk:Samantha Michaels#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Samantha Michaels|contribs]]) 01:57, 20 April 2019 (UTC)</small>
-:Stray cat, "community cat" (a euphemism), and feral cat are all the same thing, which is a cat living outdoors with no owner. Of the three, the term "feral cat" is less POV and more encyclopedic, it's the one you find in the best sources, such as this one [http://extensionpublications.unl.edu/assets/pdf/ec1781.pdf]. I'm not particularly interested in what jargon the ASPCA uses, as they're an advocacy organization. [[User:Geogene|Geogene]] ([[User talk:Geogene|talk]]) 19:13, 30 April 2019 (UTC)
-== Suggestion - Articles on ferals appear a wee bit biased. ==
-This is an opinion on these articles and you can do with it what you will. I came here looking to cite this article on my website and I was hugely disappointed that the debate between eradicating feral cats and TNR feral cats is continuing even on this article.  It is not impartial at all.  Even the TNR article, which is supposed to be about what the TNR proponents support is biased as if it's 'unproven' or weird alternative health suggestion like Reiki or Yoga or anti-vaxxer stuff.
-I'm actually shocked by this. Wikipedia isn't supposed to be showing bias, which is why it's an open edited project.  But this article is seriously lacking.  Anyone who's wanting to destroy millions of animals would be happy by this article.
-I'm not up to doing the research and siting independent sources for the article as I have other projects I'm doing.  So I am giving the current editors my opinion on this pages bias and hope that your integrity in creating accurate articles is prodded to do research on the other side of the argument, or even look into the experts in those fields.
-These are the reasons I feel this article is biased, though there does seem to be an attempt to remove the bias in some places, for example:
-. It's very obvious when there are sited tons of anti-feral studies as fact but anything that proponents of TNR site is 'claimed' even backed by proof. There are even quotation marks around anything that supports TNR.
-. When you go through the edits for this page, I even saw one comment by an editor using PETA's tagline about "re-abandonment" which clearly SHOWS the editor's bias on that.
-. One study that is sited that compares TNR and euthanasia together with different immigration rates was stated that "culling is more effective' when immigration was not controlled, which is not what it said, I looked:  It said the numbers are comparable for both when the immigration rates are 0%, but in simple English, it says, "Euthanasia required higher treatment effort than TNR" when immigration is NOT 0%.  That's a direct quote, btw.  I haven't checked them all, but one study quoted wrong leads me to suspect the whole article.
-The UK's Royal Society for the Protection of Birds even admits there is no scientific basis for cats being the cause of declining bird populations and the humans and climate change are the biggest causes and that cats are more of a danger to GARDEN birds: https://www.rspb.org.uk/birds-and-wildlife/advice/gardening-for-wildlife/animal-deterrents/cats-and-garden-birds/are-cats-causing-bird-declines/
-There was a study done on the effectiveness of culling (which is an attempt to not horrify people by calling it killing) in Tasmania where they were concerned because it wasn't working: http://www.publish.csiro.au/wr/WR14030
-Every time this article mentions any study about the effectiveness of TNR or the non-effectiveness of culling, it seems they quickly throw out that TNR encourages people to abandon more pets so it's ineffective, or that they can't prove more cats weren't moving out, or they use "this" to emphasize it's just an opinion.
-And while I did give up halfway through this article, I didn't see one section on why TNR actually is effective in a lot of cases, "the vacuum effect."  TNR'd cats actually keep out other cats from moving in.  Nature abhors a vacuum and even when a species becomes extinct, other species quickly come in to fill that niche. It's common in anything in wildlife.  If a niche needs filled, nature ensures other species do it. Established colonies reduce the number of free-roaming cats moving in.  I've seen this with my own eyes.  It doesn't help when people are DUMPING kittens in areas, but it helps keep out the free-roaming unfixed cats.
-I'm a logical person and I believe scientific facts and what I've observed with my own eyes.  I've seen the effectiveness of TNR and I've seen what happens when a cat colony is destroyed.  I read studies and then I also go with the studies that support my own experiences. I have my own opinions. I also understand in some instances feral cats are a very real menace, like in Australia and New Zealand, because of their ecology. The issue is NOT black or white, and I want impartial evidence, not this... whatever this article and the TNR article is.
-I understand *I* am a little biased, so I always go to BOTH sides of a debate to see the fact before I make a decision.  I'm hugely disappointed this article is very much tilted towards the destructiveness of feral cats and not impartial at all, even using a study inaccurately.  You can do with my opinion what you wish, but please, actually research the other side too to create articles here that are well-rounded, especially when it's regarding the actual term people who support the method used.
-Thanks for your time.
-[[User:Selenityjade|Selenityjade]] ([[User talk:Selenityjade|talk]]) 04:16, 7 August 2019 (UTC)
-:Well said. It's time to unlock the page.  <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/36.11.228.95|36.11.228.95]] ([[User talk:36.11.228.95#top|talk]]) 13:47, 26 September 2020 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
-:I totally agree with you. I felt the same way when I recently tried to add information on the new trend to support TNR, as well as the philosophical changes on how feral cats are viewed, which also supports TNR. It was great seeing this post[[User:Jmm26|Jmm26]] ([[User talk:Jmm26|talk]]) 22:13, 18 March 2021 (UTC)!  [[User:Jmm26|Jmm26]] ([[User talk:Jmm26|talk]]) 20:58, 18 March 2021 (UTC)
-::Since this complaint is, unfortunately, still attracting commentary, I would just like to point out that the Selenityjade account only ever made a single edit to a Wikipedia article, this edit [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Feral_cat&diff=prev&oldid=909698892], in which the user was tacitly encouraging people to potentially expose themselves to rabies. This fails MEDRS and, in my mind, it's both harmful and incompetent enough that it discredits all of this user's opinions about the article. It's possible that that edit is linked to this news item from about seven months before [https://www.floridatoday.com/story/news/local/environment/2019/02/08/cats-loose-boost-rabies-risk/2723576002/], in which 13 people (!) had to receive rabies prophylaxis after being bitten or scratched by four rabid stray cats in Florida. TNR was implicated as a possible factor in the re-emergence of rabies there. [[User:Geogene|Geogene]] ([[User talk:Geogene|talk]]) 03:28, 19 March 2021 (UTC)
-== Short description ==
-{{u|Geogene}}, {{u|Qwertyxp2000}}, {{u|Quisqualis}}, obviously this article needs a short description. Everyone can talk about what it should be in this section instead of doing that over and over. [[User:Invasive Spices|Invasive Spices]] ([[User talk:Invasive Spices|talk]]) 18:34, 4 February 2021 (UTC)
-:The edit summary I gave here [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Feral_cat&diff=1004257775&oldid=1004127929] is perfectly clear on my position. I'm not a grammarian, and am flexible on whatever the specific wording comes out to be, as long as it's factually accurate. I was thanked by two other editors for that edit, so I know that Qwertyxp2000 needs to develop a consensus. [[User:Geogene|Geogene]] ([[User talk:Geogene|talk]]) 18:58, 4 February 2021 (UTC)
-::Not very sure if "un-owned domestic cat" is sufficient, because feral cats are basically domestic cats who returned to wild instincts. Not sure what else to say about this short description stuff. [[User:Qwertyxp2000|'''Q'''wertyxp2000]] ([[User talk:Qwertyxp2000|talk]] &#124; [[Special:Contributions/Qwertyxp2000|contribs]]) 23:00, 4 February 2021 (UTC)
-:::The earlier "domestic cat that has returned to the wild" strikes me as an adequate definition. The bit about "unowned" is both unencyclopedic and, a bit, ridiculous, in light of the feline worldview. "One that lives in the wild but is descended from domesticated specimens" is the Wikipedia definition of a feral life form. Perhaps ''"domestic cat that lives in the wild"''?--[[User:Quisqualis|Quisqualis]] ([[User talk:Quisqualis|talk]]) 23:39, 4 February 2021 (UTC)
-::::What is a feline worldview? Only human beings have worldviews. Cats aren't people, and aren't wildlife. Most feral cats aren't living in "the wild," they live around human disturbance, and are either intentionally fed by people, or are eating rubbish. [[User:Geogene|Geogene]] ([[User talk:Geogene|talk]]) 23:47, 4 February 2021 (UTC)
-:If a short description is needed, then let's keep it short : just *feral cat*. All else like adding 'returning to the wild' is too long and superfluous. -- [[User:BhagyaMani|BhagyaMani]] ([[User talk:BhagyaMani|talk]]) 23:43, 4 February 2021 (UTC)
-::::Ownership has nothing to do with whether a cat is feral. [[User:Meters|Meters]] ([[User talk:Meters|talk]]) 23:49, 4 February 2021 (UTC)
-:::::Then there's a problem with the first sentence in the Lead. [[User:Geogene|Geogene]] ([[User talk:Geogene|talk]]) 00:00, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
-::::::Fixed. I don't know when 'un-owned' was added, but it's not needed. -- [[User:BhagyaMani|BhagyaMani]] ([[User talk:BhagyaMani|talk]]) 03:00, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
-:::::::It's probably been there since 2014, because it passes verification. The source given for it (<i>The Domestic Cat: The Biology of Its Behaviour</i>, 2nd edition) does clearly use the term feral to distinguish un-owned cats from owned ones. {{tq|The total cat population includes both owned (pet) and unowned (stray or feral) cats, but it is difficult to establish their proportions....}}. [https://books.google.com/books?id=GgUwg6gU7n4C&pg=PA119#v=onepage&q=un-owned&f=false]. A quick look at Google Scholar shows that sources there are using 'feral' to mean 'un-owned' there as well. [[User:Geogene|Geogene]] ([[User talk:Geogene|talk]]) 03:15, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
-::::::::The ref does not equate "unowned" with "feral". I read it as meaning that unowned cats are '''either''' strays or feral. [[User:Meters|Meters]] ([[User talk:Meters|talk]]) 05:25, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
-:::::::::It is a direct statement that feral cats are unowned, and it's a perfectly viable interpretation that it's equating "stray" and "feral" as well. [[User:Geogene|Geogene]] ([[User talk:Geogene|talk]]) 06:23, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
-::::::::::I disagree. It's not about whether the cat is owned. It's simply about how the cat lives. Most feral cats are unowned, but they don't have to be unowned, and some (or even many) unowned cats are feral, but that does not mean that any unowned cat '''is''' feral. If someone releases their owned cats into their large property (with cat-proof fences) and lets them fend for themselves, eventually the result will be a colony of feral cats which that person owns (assuming they can find food, shelter, etc.). And, on the other hand, a stray cat that lives under someone's porch and is fed and watered by that person is neither owned by that person nor feral. Even if you argue that the person taking care of the cat has de facto ownership, what if the person dies? It does not suddenly become a feral cat overnight because the person feeding it has died. Once again you have a stray cat that is neither owned nor feral. I can quote proper definitions of "feral" (such as the Oxford English Dictionary's "animals or plants that have lapsed into a wild from a domesticated condition") that make no mention of ownership, and do not rely on assumptions about what is meant. [[User:Meters|Meters]] ([[User talk:Meters|talk]]) 06:58, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
-:::::::::::I'm aware that you disagree. Nevertheless, you are reading it as {{tq|unowned (stray <s>or</s> <b>and</b> feral) cats}} which is a misreading of the source. [[User:Geogene|Geogene]] ([[User talk:Geogene|talk]]) 07:18, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
-::::::::::::I'm not misreading anything. It says "unowned (stray or feral)". I'm interpreting that as meaning an unowned cat can be one that is stray, or one that is feral. Why don't you show us real definition of "feral" that is dependent on the ownership status of the cat? [[User:Meters|Meters]] ([[User talk:Meters|talk]]) 07:35, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
-::::::::::::Your change of the description to simply "Un-owned domestic cat" is '''not''' valid. An unowned stay cat in the pound is not a feral cat. Period. [[User:Meters|Meters]] ([[User talk:Meters|talk]]) 07:38, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
-:::::::::::::What? A cat in the pound is <b>owned by the pound</b>, obviously. Look up the surrender paperwork of any shelter of your choice, it will say that when you bring them an animal you are permanently conveying ownership. [[User:Geogene|Geogene]] ([[User talk:Geogene|talk]]) 07:43, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
-* Attempting to get this back on track, I've checked a new source, <i>Cat Wars</i> (Marra and Santella, 2016, Princeton University Press). It says, {{tq|The term "feral" is often used as a catchall for outside cats, though it technically should apply only to animals that have completely returned to the wild, have no reliance upon humans for any sustenance or shelter, and reject any interaction with humans. Other descriptors for outside cats encountered in an urban or suburban environment include "semi-owned," "street," "stray," "colony," and "neighborhood," all of which imply a level of human dependence and thus are more accurate. The waters are further muddied by the fact that many "house" or "pet" or "owned" cats are allowed to wander outside, some for as long as they wish.}} (p.43). The fact that these terms are being muddled in the real world is why I'm not interested in strict OED definitions, and why I am interested in distinguishing between outdoor cats that are owned and those that aren't. [[User:Geogene|Geogene]] ([[User talk:Geogene|talk]]) 07:54, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
-:: I don't think a source saying a term is sometimes used inaccurately in a particular way should be used as a reason for following that inaccurate use. The quoted text says what a feral cat is and gives alternatives for other cat life-styles.  —&nbsp;<span style="font-family:Arial;background:#d6ffe6;border:solid 1px;border-radius:5px;box-shadow:darkcyan 0px 1px 1px;">&nbsp;[[User:Jts1882|Jts1882]]&nbsp;&#124;[[User talk:Jts1882|&nbsp;talk]]&nbsp;</span> 08:20, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
-::: Well, Here's another source following the same convention. (Levy et.al. "Humane strategies for controlling the feral cat population. Journal of the American Verterinary Medical Association, 2004) {{tq|The lines between loosely owned outdoor cats, tame strays, and feral cats are often blurred. Owned cats that wander or become lost may become stray cats. Stray cats that have lived in the wild for an extended time may become feral. Homeless cats may be adopted. Thus, individual cats may occupy different categories at various stages of their lives. For the purposes of this discussion, “feral cat” will be used to denote any unconfined, unowned cat, regardless of its socialization status.}} As a Wikipedia editor, it isn't your place to decide if a term is used "incorrectly" in the sources. You must use the English language as the rest of the world does. [[User:Geogene|Geogene]] ([[User talk:Geogene|talk]]) 08:27, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
-:::: I am following  the source, which says the catchall use is technically wrong and inaccurate.  You are the one distorting the meaning of the sources (here and above about the stray or owned). The last source puts feral cat in quotes to describe how they will use it so makes it clear that this is not a widely accepted definition. —&nbsp;<span style="font-family:Arial;background:#d6ffe6;border:solid 1px;border-radius:5px;box-shadow:darkcyan 0px 1px 1px;">&nbsp;[[User:Jts1882|Jts1882]]&nbsp;&#124;[[User talk:Jts1882|&nbsp;talk]]&nbsp;</span> 09:41, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
-::::: Sources, and the real world, don't define the term the way you think they should. You're wrong, not them, and what you're doing here is disruptive ([[WP:IDHT]]). Here's another example. (Population characteristics of feral cats admitted to seven trap-neuter-return programs in the United States. Journal of Feline Medicine and Surgery (2006) Wallace and Levy.) {{tq|Because both owned and unowned cats are frequently free-roaming without identification, the line is often blurred regarding classification of loosely owned outdoor cats, tame strays, and unsocialized feral cats (Levy and Crawford 2004). For the purpose of this study, feral cats were defined as any unowned free-roaming cat, regardless of a wild or tame socialization status.}} [[User:Geogene|Geogene]] ([[User talk:Geogene|talk]]) 15:06, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
-:::::: Your sources don't make the points you say they do. Pointing this out is not disruptive, it is an attempt to stop misleading information being added to the article. Poorly thought out Wikilawyering doesn't strengthen your arguments. Both those studies (with same author) say for the purposes of their study they use the loose definition, not that it is the most accurate or only definition. —&nbsp;<span style="font-family:Arial;background:#d6ffe6;border:solid 1px;border-radius:5px;box-shadow:darkcyan 0px 1px 1px;">&nbsp;[[User:Jts1882|Jts1882]]&nbsp;&#124;[[User talk:Jts1882|&nbsp;talk]]&nbsp;</span> 15:50, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
-:::::::And, here's yet another source (Feral Cats and their Management, University of Nebraska Lincoln Extension) that uses un-owned in its definition. This one actually uses a table to distinquish between feral,  free ranging, limited range, and indoor cats, based on whether the cats are owned or not, indoors or not, and tame or not. Quote: {{tq|Feral cats are domestic cats that have gone wild (figure 1)....Today, domestic cats can be classified into four categories (indoor, limited range, free range, or feral), based on whether they are owned, tame or acclimated to human contact, and allowed to roam extensively outside (table 1)....Feral cats are not owned and therefore have reverted to a wild state. They frequently exhibit aggressive or avoidance behavior around people.}} [https://extensionpublications.unl.edu/assets/pdf/ec1781.pdf]. [[User:Geogene|Geogene]] ([[User talk:Geogene|talk]]) 16:05, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
-* '''Proposal''' the first sentence and short description of the article should say that a feral cat is {{tq|an unowned or unsocialized domestic cat living outdoors.}} Or perhaps {{tq|a free ranging unowned or unsocialized domestic cat}}? [[User:Geogene|Geogene]] ([[User talk:Geogene|talk]]) 15:19, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
-:No. This is a basic logic error. "Feral cats are not owned" does '''not''' mean that all unowned cats are feral. Just take unowned out of the definition. The important thing is the way feral cats have returned to the wild, not whether or not they are owned. [[User:Meters|Meters]] ([[User talk:Meters|talk]]) 19:17, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
-::Well, sources disagree with you on that, as I've already demonstrated. Further, what do you consider to be "the wild," anyway? Do you think that, as "wild animals," they have owners? I find that a logical contradiction. [[User:Geogene|Geogene]] ([[User talk:Geogene|talk]]) 19:19, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
-:::Why are you insisting that we must use "unowned"? The definition is fuzzy. Some people include that term and some don't. We don't need to use it, it is not the defining characteristic, and is not always true (a stray cat that is being cared for is '''not''' owned, and '''not''' feral). Again, "just take unowned out of the definition." [[User:Meters|Meters]] ([[User talk:Meters|talk]]) 19:30, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
-::::Because it appears to be an essential component of the definition? Why are you insisting that we can't? Where are your sources? [[User:Geogene|Geogene]] ([[User talk:Geogene|talk]]) 19:32, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
-::::Further, since you acknowledged that my sources do use the term unowned, what is your objection to the first option I gave above, {{tq|an unowned OR unsocialized domestic cat living outdoors}}? [[User:Geogene|Geogene]] ([[User talk:Geogene|talk]]) 20:02, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
-==Commentary on edits by Jmm26==
-Regarding this revert [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Feral_cat&diff=next&oldid=1012179163], some problems are:
-* Who are the [[American Association of Feline Practitioners]], and why do they deserve so much WP:WEIGHT? As far as I can tell, they're a chapter of the AVMA, and one with unusually strong views about euthanizing healthy feral cats. In 2016, it seems they tried to get the AVMA to drop its conditional non-opposition to euthanizing feral cats [https://catvets.com/guidelines/position-statements/free-roaming-abandoned-and-feral-cats/avma-statement] and failed. It appears that their proposal failed 94.2% to 5.8% [https://www.avma.org/javma-news/2016-03-01/avma-revises-policy-feral-cats-encourage-collaboration]. This implies that their position on euthanizing feral cats is a fringe view within the AVMA.
-* The statement {{tq|The non-lethal Trap-Neuter-Return approach is now being supported by veterinarians and nonprofit organizations all over the nation, as well as over 550 local laws.}} is written like a press release or promotional ad.
-* The statement {{tq|This growing support and trend towards managing and controlling the feral cat population in a more humane, non-lethal TNR approach}} is similarly promotional in tone, and also POV because not everyone agrees that TNR is humane.
-* The text goes on to make POV claims about "zoocentric ethics" in Wikipedia's voice, claims which are heavily disputed in the literature.
-* The POV being presented in WP's voice is sourced to an alleged (by his opponents) pro-TNR lobbyist working for Best Friends Animal Society  [https://www.mdpi.com/2076-2615/10/9/1525/htm] and is being published in a controversial [[Frontiers Media]] journal.
-* Why don't we use TNR to control the rat population, and do birds have the same rights that cats allegedly do under "zoocentric ethics"? [[User:Geogene|Geogene]] ([[User talk:Geogene|talk]]) 02:43, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
-:In addition to your comments : this section on TNR is anyway quite long, so not necessary to add more web-based statements, imo. And in view of the link to trap-neuter-return, some of this verbose part can perhaps even be moved to this other page. -- [[User:BhagyaMani|BhagyaMani]] ([[User talk:BhagyaMani|talk]]) 08:06, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
-:Geogene, I agree with all your points here. [[User:Neutrality|Neutrality]]<sup>[[User talk:Neutrality|talk]]</sup> 15:54, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
-==Commentary Regarding Possibly False, Definitely Biased Picture text==
-* One of the statements under a picture of a cat is, "Feral cats are an invasive species and one of the greatest threats to native wildlife." This is objectively false, as it is '''''widely accepted by science''''' that without cats, the world would be overrun with rodents. They are not an "invasive" specie to 90+% of the world. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/2600:1702:2308:470:3def:7fcd:8469:1dcd|2600:1702:2308:470:3def:7fcd:8469:1dcd]] ([[User talk:2600:1702:2308:470:3def:7fcd:8469:1dcd#top|talk]]) 10:18, 1 July 2021 (UTC)</small>
-:: You could argue  that feral cats and any domestic cats are an invasive species anywhere outside the Middle East, but I agree the statement is inaccurate as a generalisation and factual questionable, at best unsourced. It's editorialising rather than encyclopaedic so should be changed. —&nbsp;<span style="font-family:Arial;background:#d6ffe6;border:solid 1px;border-radius:5px;box-shadow:darkcyan 0px 1px 1px;">&nbsp;[[User:Jts1882|Jts1882]]&nbsp;&#124;[[User talk:Jts1882|&nbsp;talk]]&nbsp;</span> 10:56, 1 July 2021 (UTC)
-::::Feral cats belong to a distinct species (<i>Felis catus</i>) that is fully separate from <i>F. sylvestris</i>, the African and European wildcats that are the closest wild relatives [https://repository.si.edu/bitstream/handle/10088/32616/A_revised_Felidae_Taxonomy_CatNews.pdf]. As a domestic species that evolved to live with people, they have no native range [http://www.iucngisd.org/gisd/species.php?sc=24]. [[User:Geogene|Geogene]] ([[User talk:Geogene|talk]]) 22:22, 1 July 2021 (UTC)
-::::{{ping|BhagyaMani}} Regarding this revert [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Feral_cat&diff=1031550774&oldid=1031527639]:
-::::* The caption does seem relevant for the image.
-::::* [[WP:BAREURL]] says that {{tq|There is nothing wrong with adding bare URL references to Wikipedia. If you only have time and inclination to copy the reference URL you found, we thank you for your contribution!}}
-::::* I used bare URLs in this case because I thought it so obvious that it's [[WP:SKYISBLUE]] territory, meaning you should not have demanded the sources in the first place. (I'm sure all the sources you need are *already* in the body of the article)
-::::* The comment by the IP above that precipitated this is pseudoscientific nonsense. [[User:Geogene|Geogene]] ([[User talk:Geogene|talk]]) 16:15, 2 July 2021 (UTC)
 == Semi-protected edit request 20 February 2022 ==
@@ Line 196: / Line 89: @@
 ::::{{u|SMcCandlish}} I'm not sure who your "unskilled editor" remark is aimed at, but I have an idea, and it makes me think you should probably try to summarize it yourself. [[User:Geogene|Geogene]] ([[User talk:Geogene|talk]]) 23:52, 16 August 2023 (UTC)
 :::::Had no one in mind at all, actually. I was just making the humor point that producing a WP:SUMMARY isn't actually {{em|guaranteed}} to result in a well-organized result. :-)  Anyay, I probably actually could do a reasonable job of it, but have a lot on my plate already, and perhaps the ongoing discussions here and at the TNR article should settle out a bit first. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 23:55, 16 August 2023 (UTC)
+:This is not an issue with two equally weighted options- TNR is provably ineffective at best and compounds the issue at worst. There are no pros to 'not interfering' with invasive cats lol. Your bias against aggressive population control methods is clear- the correct term is culling not killing, and it's demonstratably the only method that can make a dent in feral populations- hence why some of the worst-affected countries like Australia have culling programs. Feral cats are one of the most devastating invasive species, and can't be compared to deers or humans- also human population control is not a legitimate conservation method (obviously) so mentioning it is moot. This article is actually in better condition than some other cat ones (like the Farm Cat) page that are heavily biased. [[User:Minty420|Minty420]] ([[User talk:Minty420|talk]]) 08:54, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
+::And your bias against TNR is equally clear. Our "job" here is to summarize the dispute {{em|as captured in the modern, independent, reliable, secondary sources}} on the matter, not just repeat activistic primary-source opinions from blowhards on either side, much less pick a side as Wikipedia's "stance", but to give them [[WP:DUE|due weight]] according to the preponderance of the source treatment. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 23:26, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
 == Felixer and Curiosity data added in Spanish article ==
@@ Line 210: / Line 105: @@
 Thanks. [[User:Linuxmanía|Linuxmanía]] ([[User talk:Linuxmanía|talk]]) 12:50, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
 :This is promising, but the citation needs to be properly formatted ([[Template:Cite web]]), and the second claim needs a source. Also "that only breaks with cats' teeth" not a plausible claim; maybe something like "designed to break with cats' teeth in particular" or something otherwise more moderate. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 14:27, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
+== Traslation of the Feral Cat Related pages and Cat Impact on australia and Wildlife ==
+Is a real Shame that one of the most relevant and visited pages of wikipedia, the pages about feral cats and their impact, are not traslated in the language of one of the nations with the worst situation regarding cats.
+Cat popolation in italy are one of the worst about control.
+There is a gigantic ignorance about the environmental impact caused in the world by cats, the Italian people see stray cats as pets that roam happily, not as harmful invasive species.
+I have very limited resource to traslate propely the pages, i try to put the google-traslated pages, to make the pages exist, but wikipedia reject pages auto-traslated.
+Please make these pages exist.
+Make appear the FACTS about Cat damages.
+make a way to WARN ITALIAN PEOPLE that feral cat problems ARE REAL AND HAVE TO BE WORRIED ABOUT IT.
+PLEASE STOP THIS DEVASTATING IGNORANCE. [[User:Eastriverotter62|Eastriverotter62]] ([[User talk:Eastriverotter62|talk]]) 20:03, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
+:{{ping|Eastriverotter62}} Yelling about off-site problems in ALL CAPITALS is not going to inspire anyone to do this work for you. And it {{em|is}} work, a lot of it. This is English Wikipedia, and we're all busy improving it for our English-speaking audience. If you think an article is important to translate from en.wikipedia to it.wikipedia, then that is something to bring up among editors at it.wikipedia (probably at https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Richieste_di_traduzione<nowiki />), or just start doing the work yourself. Machine translators like [https://translate.google.com/?sl=en&tl=it&op=translate Google Translate] have improved a lot with [[Large language model|AI]] over the last couple of years, and are a good way to get started. You seem to have enough English youself to detect problems in the translation. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 06:26, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
+::The only way i have to edit it is through chrome in desktop mode on android. Try yourself what it means. Edit a paragraph can take Hours and put reference links is near to impossible.
+::Traslate the page is relevant to give people fact about the annihilation that cat does on italy, in italy is near to be like australia, here is cats overpupulaton everywere but people deny the annihilation caused by cats because the lack of information about it, and here is like a cat hell.
+::There are a why if in the wikia most of the cat pictures comes from italy, here is a real crazy cat lady hell, you have no idea. [[User:Eastriverotter62|Eastriverotter62]] ([[User talk:Eastriverotter62|talk]]) 11:46, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
+:::Repeat: {{tq|If you think an article is important to translate from en.wikipedia to it.wikipedia, then that is something to bring up among editors at it.wikipedia (probably at https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Richieste_di_traduzione<nowiki />)}}. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 00:20, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
+== Invasive species ==
+There is no reason for this to be a section. What little we can use from [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Feral_cat&curid=895672&diff=1191309304&oldid=1191296618 this] reverted edit simply belongs at or near the top of the "Effects on wildlife" section (and really that section should move to be a subsection of "Behavior and ecology"; it's confusing for them to be widely separated like this, since their effect on wildlife is a subtopic of their ecology). The salvageable material from the reverted edit is probably only the following (after deletion of [[WP:OR]] editorializing against a source, removal of blathering about what the source's purposes are, some formatting cleanup, and following the source material much more closely):
+{{tqb|Cats are an [[invasive species]] wordwide, and are included on the [[International Union for Conservation of Nature]]'s "[[100 of the World's Worst Invasive Alien Species]]" list<ref>{{cite web |author=Invasive Species Specialist Group |title=100 of the World's Worst Invasive Alien Species |date=2023 |work=[[Global Invasive Species Database]] |publisher=Species Survival Commission, [[International Union for Conservation of Nature]] |url=https://www.iucngisd.org/gisd/100_worst.php |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20231030075221/https://www.iucngisd.org/gisd/100_worst.php |archive-date=30 October 2023 |access-date=11 December 2023}}</ref><ref>{{cite web |last1=Lowe |first1=S. |last2=Browne |first2=M. |last3=Boudjelas |first3=S. |last4=De Poorter |first4=M. |author5=Invasive Species Specialist Group |title=100 of the World's Worst Invasive Alien Species: A Selection from the Global Invasive Species Database |date=November 2004 |work=ISSG.org |orig-date=12 December 2000 |publisher=Species Survival Commission, [[International Union for Conservation of Nature]] |url=https://www.issg.org/booklet.pdf |url-status=dead |archive-url= https://web.archive.org/web/20090205092810/http://www.issg.org/booklet.pdf |archive-date=5 February 2009}} Cats are listed both in the currently maintained online version (previously cited) and this original publication.</ref> of human-introduced animals and plants having serious effects on [[biodiversity]]. Cats were listed for [[Cat predation on wildlife|their widespread predation on birds and other wildlife]], mostly by [[Feral cat|feral populations]], with effects most severe on [[Island tameness|islands where native species evolved without predators]].<ref>{{cite web |author=Invasive Species Specialist Group |title=Species profile: ''Felis catus'' |date=2023 |work=[[Global Invasive Species Database]] |publisher=Species Survival Commission, [[International Union for Conservation of Nature]] |url= http://www.iucngisd.org/gisd/species.php?sc=24 |access-date=22 December 2023}}</ref>}}
+{{reflist talk}}
+This would actually be a good first sentence for the section.
+The reste of the material Xhkvfq tried to add is more off-topic blathering about the nature of the "100" list (this is not the [[100 of the World's Worst Invasive Alien Species]] article), personal opinion-mongering about how it must be interpreted, and what amounts to excuse-making for cats by pointing fingers at other species that are not the subject of this article. That was inappropriate material and it was right to revert it.
+I'll take up the policy problems with Xhkvfq's approach at [[User talk:Xhkvfq]]. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 23:21, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
+PS: If someone thinks a particular source has reliability issues, that should be raised on the article talk page, and if the matter cannot be ironed out, then it goes to [[WP:Reliable sources noticeboard]]. But if anyone thinks IUCN is going to be ruled unreliable, they are in for a rude awakening.  I'm the first to say that they have to be given due weight as a conservation agency, which is not the same thing as a neutral scientific journal or the like; but the weight due them in this topic area is quite heavy. What's not okay at all is trying to gin up a false perception of widespread disagreement with IUCN in other reliable sources when there is no real-world evidence of this. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 00:17, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
+== Stray and feral ==
+Stray and feral cats are not the same thing, and the way this article is written is misleading and contributing to a lot of misinformation. I've raised domesticated cats from the time they were kittens, strays, and ferals.  A stray cat can revert to a domesticated cat, but a feral cat cannot, although it will give the superficial appearance of resembling a domestic or a stray to a casual observer, their behavior is not the same and they have altogether different reactions to their environment.  A domestic cat raised from the appropriate young age will exhibit highly socialized, dog-like behavior.  A stray, if it experienced this kind of early socialization, will also exhibit much of the same behavior, with certain caveats.  A feral may mimic some of this behavior to an observer, but does not actually engage in it, it's kind of like going through the motions since it knows it will get food, treats, or pets. [[User:Viriditas|Viriditas]] ([[User talk:Viriditas|talk]]) 01:53, 25 February 2024 (UTC)