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New References Added

I just noticed the recent additions by Itshappyday, although the English needs some tweaking :) It's not your first language, is it? I tried to find URLs for the new references you added (for convenience), but those sources don't seem to believe in making all their articles web-available. I guess that's probably why you just added the old-fashioned reference information, huh? Thanks for adding new information, and I'll see what I can do to integrate it more smoothly. Forestgarden (talk) 19:38, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry for my English. Thank you for the effort to correct it. I appreciate your edits. As you might have known from my personal page Itshappyday, my first language is not English. As for the references I used yesterday were the Sedona Red Rock News. It has its website redrocknews.com, but not all of its articles are available online. In this case, how can I provide the reference? --Itshappyday (talk) 22:11, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I remember your userpage now :) I did see the home page for that newspaper, but I also was unable to find online copies of those specific articles. It's a shame, but your citation style seems fine to me. Remember, "back in the day" before newspaper articles were commonly online, that's how all references were. Take a look at the Wikipedia page on citing sources for more detailed information on Wiki citation styles. Forestgarden (talk) 17:01, 25 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Itshappyday, I just asked Nicola Cola to give a second look over your additions, since they were the original editor of the page, and might like to weigh in. Maybe they'll have some suggestions for how to rearrange material so it flows better, since the flurry of edits back in February left the overall structure something of a mess :) I've been reluctant to tackle it, but it's really muddled right now. Do you have any suggestions? Forestgarden (talk) 17:17, 26 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Old Discussions Archived

Also, the talk page had gotten a little unwieldy, and has been quiet for months, so I archived the old discussions to make it easier to work with the page. Forestgarden (talk) 19:49, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Controversy Relevancy

I am questioning the relevance of all of the statements in the Controversy section. If a case was dismissed by the court then the claims in the complaint are moot. Also, in this section Footnote 70 is placed at the end of a statement about the contents of the coroner's report. Where's the coroner's report? You have to wade through a 4 page Village Voice article to find a brief reference to a postmortem report. Also, I would be surprised if a coroner's report would name the location where she became dehydrated. I am planning on changing the article to address these points. Draongsun (talk) 15:55, 27 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, Draongsun. I agree that the cases' dismissal affects the presentation of facts about this case in this article. However, I don't think it is proper to simply erase the content since the case was covered in several news outlets. I think it needs to be revised with Wikipedia's policies regarding the biographies of living people in mind. Wikipedia policy states clearly that controversial information should be handled very carefully and as neutrally as possible. The facts of this case can never be fully established since the case was dismissed, thus it is inappropriate to include details from the the complaint, which only represent the prosocution's point of view. It is especially problematic to include unsubstantiated, inflammatory statements, such as the "cult" and "drugged and killed" statements, in a bio of a living person, especially when they are quoted from documents related to a dismissed court case. Basic information about the nature of the case should stand, but it should be revised to reflect established fact and a neutral view point. Nicola Cola (talk) 01:20, 30 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I don't agree that details of a deceased case must be excluded. Such a rule would prohibit detailed discussion of the OJ Simpson murder case from his article, for example. In fact, if the details of a case were covered in the media as an important controversy regarding an individual, it should be covered in their article. Wikipedia should not 'scrub' their history of the case; we just record notable facts. Locke9k (talk) 05:43, 28 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Dismissal of a case does not make claims "moot." It means that the case will not proceed, but is not definitive in terms of whether the underlying facts are notable outside a court of law. Cases are often dismissed based on procedural issues that have nothing to do with the veracity of the claims, or on rules of evidence that are different than those one would apply in Wikipedia. Also, please look up the word "moot" as you are using it incorrectly. Unless she is no longer dead, the claims are anything but moot. -Lciaccio (talk) 01:54, 24 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I should add that my comments were in addition to those of Locke, whose point on the relevancy of controversy is fundamental here.-Lciaccio (talk) 23:28, 16 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

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+{{Talkheader}}
-{{WPBiography|living=yes|class=B}}
+{{WikiProject banner shell|class=Start|living=yes|listas=Lee, Ilchi|1=
+{{WikiProject Korea|importance=low}}
+{{WikiProject Biography}}
+{{WikiProject Alternative medicine}}
+{{WikiProject Skepticism|importance=Low}}
+}}
+==New References Added==
-== Inclusion of Controversial Material ==
+I just noticed the recent additions by [[User:Itshappyday|Itshappyday]], although the English needs some tweaking :) It's not your first language, is it? I tried to find URLs for the new references you added (for convenience), but those sources don't seem to believe in making all their articles web-available. I guess that's probably why you just added the old-fashioned reference information, huh? Thanks for adding new information, and I'll see what I can do to integrate it more smoothly. [[User:Forestgarden|Forestgarden]] ([[User talk:Forestgarden|talk]]) 19:38, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
-This article is as bogus as it gets. There are numerous controversies and scandals in Lee's life. In fact, the man has a bogus degree, never studied with any know masters, and many of his former disciples claimed he had sex with hundreds of female adherents and even tried to create an organized crime wing of his operation.  <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/61.7.182.128|61.7.182.128]] ([[User talk:61.7.182.128|talk]]) 08:57, 13 November 2007 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
+<blockquote>Sorry for my English. Thank you for the effort to correct it. I appreciate your edits. As you might have known from my personal page [[User:Itshappyday|Itshappyday]], my first language is not English. As for the references I used yesterday were the Sedona Red Rock News. It has its website [http://www.redrocknews.com redrocknews.com], but not all of its articles are available online. In this case, how can I provide the reference? --[[User:Itshappyday|Itshappyday]] ([[User talk:Itshappyday|talk]]) 22:11, 24 July 2008 (UTC)</blockquote>
-:Ilchi Lee earned a degree from Dankook University, an accredited university that has never been accused of being a "diploma mill" in any publication I have seen. If you have legitimate evidence of this you must cite that source. Dankook is an ordinary, respectable university like any other in Korea. The degrees that are in question are two honorary Ph.D.s that were bestowed by American institutions unrelated to Dankook University. The edit that you made is clearly factually incorrect, unsourced, and not in compliance with Wikipedia's policy about biographies of living people and violates the policy against independent research.[[User:Nicola Cola|Nicola Cola]] 16:46, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
+::Yes, I remember your userpage now :)  I did see the home page for that newspaper, but I also was unable to find online copies of those specific articles. It's a shame, but your citation style seems fine to me. Remember, "back in the day" before newspaper articles were commonly online, that's how all references were. Take a look at [[Wikipedia:Citing_sources|the Wikipedia page on citing sources]] for more detailed information on Wiki citation styles. [[User:Forestgarden|Forestgarden]] ([[User talk:Forestgarden|talk]]) 17:01, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
+:::[[User:Itshappyday|Itshappyday]], I just asked [[User:Nicola_Cola|Nicola Cola]] to give a second look over your additions, since they were the original editor of the page, and might like to weigh in. Maybe they'll have some suggestions for how to rearrange material so it flows better, since the flurry of edits back in February left the overall structure something of a mess :) I've been reluctant to tackle it, but it's really muddled right now. Do you have any suggestions? [[User:Forestgarden|Forestgarden]] ([[User talk:Forestgarden|talk]]) 17:17, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
+==Old Discussions Archived==
-Why don't you address the other points brought up?  <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/61.7.160.221|61.7.160.221]] ([[User talk:61.7.160.221|talk]]) 07:28, 2 December 2007 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
+Also, the talk page had gotten a little unwieldy, and has been quiet for months, so I archived the old discussions to make it easier to work with the page. [[User:Forestgarden|Forestgarden]] ([[User talk:Forestgarden|talk]]) 19:49, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
-::None of the "issues" you raise have any place in the article because none of them have any validity that can be supported by any reputable journalistic source. Ignoring these accusations is not my personal preference, it is simply the standard Wikipedia demands. If you have some reputable proof of these things, they can be added. Wikipedia is a place to present varifiable facts, not a place for muckraking, especially in biographies of living people. I am really trying to create a straightforward, neutral article here. It shouldn't be used as a soapbox for people that have some axe to grind. [[User:Nicola Cola|Nicola Cola]] 16:27, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
+==Controversy Relevancy==
+I am questioning the relevance of all of the statements in the Controversy section. If a case was dismissed by the court then the claims in the complaint are moot. Also, in this section Footnote 70 is placed at the end of a statement about the contents of the coroner's report. Where's the coroner's report? You have to wade through a 4 page Village Voice article to find a brief reference to  a postmortem report. Also, I would be surprised if a coroner's report would name the location where she became dehydrated. I am planning on changing the article to address these points. [[User:Draongsun|Draongsun]] ([[User talk:Draongsun|talk]]) 15:55, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
+:Hello, Draongsun. I agree that the cases' dismissal affects the presentation of facts about this case in this article. However, I don't think it is proper to simply erase the content since the case was covered in several news outlets. I think it needs to be revised with Wikipedia's policies regarding the biographies of living people in mind. Wikipedia policy states clearly that controversial information should be handled very carefully and as neutrally as possible. The facts of this case can never be fully established since the case was dismissed, thus it is inappropriate to include details from the the complaint, which only represent the prosocution's point of view. It is especially problematic to include unsubstantiated, inflammatory statements, such as the "cult" and "drugged and killed" statements, in a bio of a living person, especially when they are quoted from documents related to a dismissed court case. Basic information about the nature of the case should stand, but it should be revised to reflect established fact and a neutral view point. [[User:Nicola Cola|Nicola Cola]] ([[User talk:Nicola Cola|talk]]) 01:20, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
+::I don't agree that details of a deceased case must be excluded.  Such a rule would prohibit detailed discussion of the OJ Simpson murder case from his article, for example.  In fact, if the details of a case were covered in the media as an important controversy regarding an individual, it should be covered in their article.  Wikipedia should not 'scrub' their history of the case; we just record notable facts. [[User:Locke9k|Locke9k]] ([[User talk:Locke9k|talk]]) 05:43, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
+:::  Dismissal of a case does not make claims "moot." It means that the case will not proceed, but is not definitive in terms of whether the underlying facts are notable outside a court of law.  Cases are often dismissed based on procedural issues that have nothing to do with the veracity of the claims, or on rules of evidence that are different than those one would apply in Wikipedia.  Also, please look up the word "moot" as you are using it incorrectly. Unless she is no longer dead, the claims are anything but moot. -[[User:Lciaccio|Lciaccio]] ([[User talk:Lciaccio|talk]]) 01:54, 24 May 2014 (UTC)
+::::I should add that my comments were in addition to those of Locke, whose point on the relevancy of controversy is fundamental here.-[[User:Lciaccio|Lciaccio]] ([[User talk:Lciaccio|talk]]) 23:28, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
-== Suggestions for Improvement ==
+== External links modified ==
-Please let me know of any suggestions you have that could help improve this article. I would like to prepare it for GA review. I think I will start by making some sub-catagories and expanding those a bit. Any other ideas? [[User:Nicola Cola|Nicola Cola]] ([[User talk:Nicola Cola|talk]]) 16:54, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
-: I think more of Ilchi Lee's contribution to Brain eduation can be added. We can add his activities for the International Brain HSP Olympiad events. I also want to know about how much we can deal with his activities in Korea. How much that will be notable for the Wikipedia in English. [[User:Itshappyday|Itshappyday]] ([[User talk:Itshappyday|talk]]) 18:05, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
-::Do you mean in terms of his contribution to brain-based eduction? Because his methods are quite non-traditional, I am not sure how he fits into that educational mode as a whole. Do you know of any sources that speak of him as an educator? I think adding info about the Olympiad is good. I know I've seen things written about that, but is he mentioned by name in the source? [[User:Nicola Cola|Nicola Cola]] ([[User talk:Nicola Cola|talk]]) 00:53, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
-:::I did a little searching and ran across [http://www.dailyfreeman.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=18693282&BRD=1769&PAG=461&dept_id=74958&rfi=6 this article] which mentions him by name in connection with the Olympiad held this year in New York. Hope that helps you. [[User:Forestgarden|Forestgarden]] ([[User talk:Forestgarden|talk]]) 22:51, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
-::::Here's [http://trafficcircle.ulstercountypress.com/Post_reply/view.php?action=Detail&type=story&sub_id=1352&area=&category=20&PHPSESSID=49aeb8a427f0f8b9bc3eb946065f6dea another article] I found about that Olympiad. It doesn't mention Ilchi Lee, but you could use it as a source for writing about the event, depending on how much detail you plan for that part of the wiki article. [[User:Forestgarden|Forestgarden]] ([[User talk:Forestgarden|talk]]) 17:23, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
-:::To what extent can I use Korean references? I feel sad I can't share some of them with you because I am not sure if you can read Korean. I have lots of Korean references regarding [[Ilchi Lee]], some of which I used for the National Order of Civil Merit for him. Please give me some advice. [[User:Itshappyday|Itshappyday]] ([[User talk:Itshappyday|talk]]) 23:39, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
-:::Would it be okay to put a selected list of Ilchi Lee's Korean publication? [[User:Itshappyday|Itshappyday]] ([[User talk:Itshappyday|talk]]) 03:54, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
+Hello fellow Wikipedians,
-As a veteran GA reviewer, I can tell you that no article that uses books authored by Lee as its primary source to verify controversial factual claims will ever be GA. What this article needs is to present a more balanced view on the subject using reliable ''secondary'' source material not produced by the subject. Using an autobiography or other self-made work is okay if you're verifying expressly what Lee says he did, his version of events. But when you use his word as a verification of events that many people have contested, it is not neutral or reasonably reliable. To state that the only controversy about Lee is that he was involved with the wrongful death suit is a grave violation of NPOV. [[User:VanTucky|'''Van<span style="color:#FF4F00">Tucky</span>''']] <sup>[[User talk:VanTucky|talk]]</sup> 01:12, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
+I have just modified 15 external links on [[Ilchi Lee]]. Please take a moment to review [[special:diff/809860365|my edit]]. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit [[User:Cyberpower678/FaQs#InternetArchiveBot|this simple FaQ]] for additional information. I made the following changes:
-::: Okay, thanks, Van Tucky. I admire your commitment to and understanding of Wikipedia, but I am really doubting your ability to stay neutral in your assessment of this article. Right from the beginning of my interaction with you, your biases have been obvious. However, I do appreciate your attention to it, since I really do want to create a properly neutral article.
+*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20071023001717/http://www.asanas.org.uk/files/woo%20advance%20publication.pdf to http://www.asanas.org.uk/files/woo%20advance%20publication.pdf
+*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20061101034608/https://www.dahnyoga.com/general/faq_view.asp?id=112 to http://www.dahnyoga.com/general/faq_view.asp?id=112
-:::Please let me know what are the "events that many people have contested" are and what reliable sources confirm your claim. Are you speaking about the events in his biography itself? What events specifically? I have looked at many Wikipedia biographies and many rely heavily on autobiographical sources, including many with high ratings. As far as the controversies go, I can not find any reliable sources that discuss the various accusations beyond the ones cited.  Most of the mudslinging has occurred in Internet sources that are not considered reliable because they make no attempt present a balanced view, and they make no attempt to confirm the "facts" that they present. If you know of reputable journalistic treatments of these controversies, please let me know, and let's include them!
+*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080229124645/http://brconsulting.squarespace.com/br-consulting-services/ to http://brconsulting.squarespace.com/br-consulting-services/
+*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070824002633/http://www.hspworld.org/ to http://www.hspworld.org/
+*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110722134245/http://eng.ube.ac.kr/Institutions/index_research04.asp to http://eng.ube.ac.kr/Institutions/index_research04.asp
+*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080530115352/http://vcas.wlu.edu/VRAS/2007/Seth.pdf to http://vcas.wlu.edu/VRAS/2007/Seth.pdf
+*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080530115352/http://marty-center.uchicago.edu/webforum/102007/beleaguered_success.pdf to http://marty-center.uchicago.edu/webforum/102007/beleaguered_success.pdf
+*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080225061734/http://eng.ube.ac.kr/Institutions/index_research04.asp?sel=12 to http://eng.ube.ac.kr/Institutions/index_research04.asp?sel=12
+*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110722132622/http://eng.peace.ac.kr/Institutions/institutions_education_index.asp?sel=7 to http://eng.peace.ac.kr/Institutions/institutions_education_index.asp?sel=7
+*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110722134621/http://eng.ube.ac.kr/publications/publication_index_book.asp?division=new&num=53&str= to http://eng.ube.ac.kr/publications/publication_index_book.asp?division=new&num=53&str=
+*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110722132622/http://eng.peace.ac.kr/Institutions/institutions_education_index.asp?sel=7 to http://eng.peace.ac.kr/Institutions/institutions_education_index.asp?sel=7
+*Added {{tlx|dead link}} tag to http://ibreaus.org/brainhsp/
+*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090501171603/http://www.blackwellpublishing.com/aphmeeting/abstract.asp?MeetingID=&id=60794 to http://www.blackwellpublishing.com/aphmeeting/abstract.asp?MeetingID=&id=60794
+*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090501171558/http://www.blackwellpublishing.com/aphmeeting/abstract.asp?MeetingID=&id=60253 to http://www.blackwellpublishing.com/aphmeeting/abstract.asp?MeetingID=&id=60253
+*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080601115237/http://www.ilchi.org/ to http://www.ilchi.org/
+*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080912221810/http://www.ilchilee.org/ to http://www.ilchilee.org/
+When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
-:::The fact of the matter is that controversy ''has'' been part of Lee's life, but no one has bothered to really investigate these things properly in a journalistic context, or to ascertain to what degree he is responsible for controversies surrounding Dahn yoga. Most sources that I have seen focus on Dahn yoga and do not discuss Lee's role in any detail at all. I really resent this statement, VanTucky: "To state that the only controversy about Lee is that he was involved with the wrongful death suit is a grave violation of NPOV." I have never claimed that that is the only controversy surrounding him, neither in the article itself nor in any talk page comment, so I reguard that as a completely unjustified accusation. The lawsuit is simply the only one that has a legitimate reference source, and even in that case Lee's role is not discussed. As I said before to you and the other detractor, if you have sources to cite these things properly, PLEASE let me know! It really seems like you want these things included whether they are verifiable or not. Please don't let your personal dislike for something guide your assessment abilities. If you want something included in the article, just present the sources, and I'll be happy to oblige. [[User:Nicola Cola|Nicola Cola]] ([[User talk:Nicola Cola|talk]]) 18:01, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
+{{sourcecheck|checked=false|needhelp=}}
-::::I think you may have pegged me wrong. I dislike articles that make claims using flimsy sources. I didn't even know Dahn or Lee existed until I began working on this article, and I haven't read any of his works or attended Dahn classes or whatever they are. I do however, find articles that lack secondary sourcing for obviously contentious subjects (ala the thread above this one) to be lacking. The article needing secondary sources is not a matter of personal opinion, it is a simple fact. All articles need them. To rely only on sources written by the subject of a biography is a grave miscarriage of basic standards of factual accuracy, even if the person is uncontroversial. You just don't do it. [[User:VanTucky|'''Van<span style="color:#FF4F00">Tucky</span>''']] <sup>[[User talk:VanTucky|talk]]</sup> 23:52, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
-:::::You say "To rely only on sources written by the subject of a biography is a grave miscarriage of the basic standards of factual accuracy." Again this is a completely inaccurate representation of my work here. Did you bother to notice that many of the citations listed are NOT written by the subject of the article before making this accusation? How can you say I've ONLY used sources written by the subject? Furthermore, I have read very carefully through the biography policies, and I have found nothing prohibiting autobiographical works. If you know of such a policy, please cite that specifically. Even in articles where thousands of sources written by people other than the subject are available, autobiography is used frequently, as in [[Benjamin Franklin]] and [[Malcolm X]]. Unless the facts given in an autobiographical source are in dispute, I see no reason why they should be considered factually inaccurate. Lee has been criticised in the blogosphere for a lot or things, but even in those places I have never heard anyone claim his books contain lies about his own life.
-:::::You really show your true colors when you say, "I didn't even know Dahn or Lee existed until I began working on this article, and I haven't read any of his works or attended Dahn classes or whatever they are." The cynical tone of the statement aside, your unwillingness to really consider the facts of the "whatever they are" before asserting yourself upon an article on the topic is really reprehensible. Don't you think you should have at least glanced at a book on the topic, rather than pretending that only negatively slanted treatments exist, before attempting to rewrite an article?
-:::::I am willing to consider anything you say, VanTucky, as long as it is accurate to the actual state of the article and can be used to improve the article. I really want to learn from you, but I need information that I can actually use. If you believe something is factually inaccurate in the article, please tell me specifically what those things are and what sources present that information. I am definitely willing to include anything that can be cited properly. Also, provide a link to the policy against use of autobiographical sources. [[User:Nicola Cola|Nicola Cola]] ([[User talk:Nicola Cola|talk]]) 19:00, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
+Cheers.—[[User:InternetArchiveBot|'''<span style="color:darkgrey;font-family:monospace">InternetArchiveBot</span>''']] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">([[User talk:InternetArchiveBot|Report bug]])</span> 22:42, 11 November 2017 (UTC)
-== Rewrite of the Controversy Section ==
-I’d just like to remind everyone about [[WP:BLP|policies on writing biographies of living people]], [[WP:NOR|no original research]], [[WP:NPOV|having a neutral point of view]], and [[WP:V|making sure things are verifiable]]. There seems to be some, er, issues. [[User:Green caterpillar|Green caterpillar]] ([[User talk:Green caterpillar|talk]]) 01:11, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
-:I think the essential problem is that the controversial stuff has been covered to an extreme degree in weak sources like blogs, forums, and what I call "rumor collection sites," like rickross.com, Steve Hassan, and selectsmart.com. These sites clearly thrive on negative, reputation-busting content and make no attempt to varify the validity of accusation made or to present supportive points of view. Very few "legitamate" journalistic sources mention Ilchi Lee at all. Most focus on Dahn yoga centers, not on Ilchi Lee. According to the policies regarding biographies of living people, it seems that only the highst quality sources should be included, but clearly detractors will not be satisfied with the limited information available from these sources. But then again, should Wikipedia be a platform for a person's critics?[[User:Nicola Cola|Nicola Cola]] ([[User talk:Nicola Cola|talk]]) 19:23, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
-Added to discussion 1/29/08:  First, I apologize to you, Nicola, for removing a paragraph you had written in the controversy section (Nicola wrote to me on the user talk page that I shouldn't have done that.) I tried to work with it, but ultimately, after adding my own content, I felt that the flow was more important than trying to keep your exact wording, and I didn't change the meaning of your paragraph.  I tried to post an explanation here but it didn't go through (my fault - newbie here).  '''About Rick Ross, and Steve Hassan, for that matter: Is it against wiki policy to cite them on ANY wiki live biography to indicate that a person is controversial and the nature of that controversy?'''  (I have already removed the content that I referenced with selectsmart.com/ilchilee.html, as I continue to try to understand Wiki policies while still trying to contribute factual content.)  Nicole, I find your condemnation of Rick Ross here and in your direct message to me disproportionate to the credibility that I believe he holds as an expert in his field.  And, I don't see how Ilchi Lee can be regarded as separate from Dahn operations. He founded it, he owns many Dahn-related  tradenames and websites, he provides management consulting through BR Consulting only for his own programs, he shares some of the same directors or owners and property with other Dahn entities. He is "Grand Master" Lee, revered by followers, many whom attend or work for Dahn yoga centers.  More than a dozen Ilchi Lee fan blogs suddenly appeared online - obviously orchestrated from a central authority.  Maybe the attempt to disconnect Ilchi Lee from controversy surrounding his programs is a point of controversy in itself. --[[User:Timelyheart|Timelyheart]] ([[User talk:Timelyheart|talk]]) 21:28, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
-:Hello, Timelyheart. I have to disagree that meaning in my original content was not changed. In fact, it went from a neutral discussion to a non-NPOV discussion of the controversy. I think you had a hard time working with my version simply because it did not fit your intention to emphasize the controversy, which is not proper in a living person's biography, or any article for that matter. If this is not your intent, then why did you quote profusely from court prosecution documents and nothing from the defense? (By the way, you completely failed to mention that the one case was dismissed, but that doesn't help spread the accusations, does it?) You have also chosen to go far beyond the sources that you cite, which is wrong for any article, bio or not. An administator and another highly experienced editor have consistantly removed the Rick Ross and Steve Hassan links from the Dahn Yoga article, in spite of having clearly negative feelings about Dahn yoga. A quick read of Wikipedia policy on reliable sources and living person's biography will show why they are rejected (and that selectsmart should be, too). And by the way, Steve Hassan and especially Rick Ross are highly controversial figures in their own right, hardly the respected experts that you suggest they are. Think of it this way, Timelyheart. You wouldn't want me to use the blogs you mention as a source for this article, right? Obviously they do not follow basic standards of journalistic balance. The Hassan, Ross, and selectsmart.com sights are no more reliable than those. All three sites are willing to list any negative information they can find about the people and organizations the seek to destroy, and they would never dream of including any information that refutes the allegations they gather. I have asked Green Caterpillar to take a look at your edits. He was the one who originally graded the article and presumably knows more about biographies of living people in Wikipedia than either one of us.[[User:Nicola Cola|Nicola Cola]] ([[User talk:Nicola Cola|talk]]) 23:39, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
-::Timelyheart responds: Like I said, I already removed the selectsmart reference (as well as the content about blogs, etc. that  that site referenced.)  And, I already did add that the Alameda "case was reportedly settled out of court without admission of guilt.[22]"  I think you're right that more of the defense's position could be included (And you can add that yourself, right?)  I assume you're referring to the Alameda case. I didn't find much detail in the defendants' response to the charges among the online documents, other than essentially an uncategorical denial - which I did include in the content. What is your reference for claiming that the case was dismissed? (I assume you're referring to the Alameda case; I don't know if there is an outcome of the Siverls case yet.)  If you're talking about the Siverls case, is there a reference for that case being dismissed?  And I would like to know the policy on using Rick Ross or Steven Hassan as references for controversy about ANY living biography; it shouldn't just be for this one person that they are regarded as inappropriate sources, imo.  Imo, they are controversial because they deal with a highly volatile subject matter; it come with the territory. I think that more neutral and analytical information could be provided on the other subtopics, which would make the controversy section appear less weighty, and I am working on that now.  I'll keep trying to find an answer on using Rick Ross and Steve Hassan as sources and will remove that content if I am in the wrong.  I'll try to find where Wiki describes "balance."  For some biographies, trying to keep an equal weight between negative and positive content would appear ludicrous and biased (e.g.Hitler), so I doubt that wiki wants equal wording. I headed straight for the controversy section because what I read  seemed much too glowing, especially in light of all the news reports, a death during training, and other documents posted on websites (that I didn't include).  In fact, I thought I was using great restraint! --[[User:Timelyheart|Timelyheart]] ([[User talk:Timelyheart|talk]]) 02:27, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
-::Also, Nicola said: ''"You have also chosen to go far beyond the sources that you cite, which is wrong for any article, bio or not."''  Please be specific. What line(s)? --[[User:Timelyheart|Timelyheart]] ([[User talk:Timelyheart|talk]]) 02:36, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
-:::How about this. To determine whether the content is reliable or not, find the same information on another website. All information needs to be [[WP:V|verifiable]]. [[User:Green caterpillar|Green caterpillar]] ([[User talk:Green caterpillar|talk]]) 21:39, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
-::::But does repetition of rumors on more than one non-fact-checked Web site really ensure reliability?[[User:Nicola Cola|Nicola Cola]] ([[User talk:Nicola Cola|talk]]) 23:05, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
-:::::Here are some direct quotes from Wikipedia policy, all of which I believe are being violated here:
-* From [[Wikipedia:Biographies of living people]]:"Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid; it is not our job to be sensationalist, or to be the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives. An important rule of thumb when writing biographical material about living persons is 'do no harm'." Clearly harm is being done to the subject of the article here. Timelyheart has taken "facts" from prosecution documents for a case that was actually dismissed and therefore the truth of the claims were never substantiated. Also, claims are well beyond what are available throught the link, and no defense response is available.
-* Also from [[Wikipedia:Biographies of living people]]:"Biographies of living people should be written responsibly, conservatively, and in a neutral, encyclopedic tone." Including long quotes from non-neutral sources gives the entire passage an incendiary, not encyclopedic tone.
-* Also from [[Wikipedia:Biographies of living people]]:"The views of critics should be represented if they are relevant to the subject's notability and can be sourced to reliable secondary sources, and so long as the material is written in a manner that does not overwhelm the article or appear to side with the critics." The controversy section is no longer proportional to the rest of the article. It is now the longest section and the most detailed.
-* Also from [[Wikipedia:Biographies of living people]]:"Beware of claims that rely on guilt by association. Editors should also be on the lookout for biased or malicious content about living persons. If someone appears to be pushing an agenda or a biased point of view, insist on reliable third-party published sources and a clear demonstration of relevance to the person's notability." There definitely seems to be some "biased and malicious" intention here, as there is in the sources relied upon. And the "guilt by association" claim has been made in this very discussion.
-* Also from [[Wikipedia:Biographies of living people]]:"Material about living persons available solely in questionable sources or sources of dubious value should be handled with caution, and, if derogatory, should not be used at all in biographies of living people, either as sources or via external links." Cult-buster sites and prosecution documents from dismissed or unresolved legal cases are clearly unreliable and intentionally derogatory.
-* From [[Wikipedia:Verifiability]]:"Articles should rely on reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy" and "Questionable sources are those with a poor reputation for fact-checking. Such sources include websites and publications that express views that are widely acknowledged as extremist, are promotional in nature, or rely heavily on rumors and personal opinions." Cult-buster sites definitely "rely heavily on rumors and personal opinion" and make no attempt whatsoever to check the validity of claims that people make, unlike proper journalistic sources. They should not be used in ANY article, much less in a biography of a living person.[[User:Nicola Cola|Nicola Cola]] ([[User talk:Nicola Cola|talk]]) 00:29, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
-::Hello folks, upon reviewing this conversation and the recent rewrite of the Controversy section, I see two main issues to resolve:
-::'''(1)''' Some sources added by [[User:TimelyHeart|TimelyHeart]] don't seem to meet Wikipedia standards, especially for inclusion in an article about a living person. According to [[WP:TE|generally accepted standards]], "newsletters, personal websites, open wikis, blogs, forum postings, and similar sources are largely not acceptable". Self-published books are also weak sources, except when used solely to document what the author has said. “Articles should rely on reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. Sources should be appropriate to the claims made.” It does seem that [[User:Nicola Cola|Nicola Cola]] is correct in classifying the Rick Ross site as focusing almost exclusively on derrogatory information and "rely[ing] heavily on rumors and personal opinions" and thus not appropriate for sourcing an article about a living person. Does anyone else have good evidence that they thoroughly check their facts before publishing information online? Also, if the material sourced from this site is [[WP:N|notable]] and [[WP:V|verifiable]], it should be possible for [[User:TimelyHeart|TimelyHeart]] to find a different (more reliable/verifiable) source to use. I [[WP:TE|read]] that “the responsibility for justifying inclusion of any content rests firmly with the editor seeking to include it. This applies most especially to biographies of living individuals, where uncited or poorly cited controversial material must be removed immediately from both the article and the Talk page, and by extension any related Project pages. Only once you have justified your edits beyond a reasonable doubt does the burden of proof shift to others.” This suggests that the questionably-sourced material should be immediately removed from both article and talk page.
-::Of the new sources, I would divide them this way (reference numbering is accurate as of today):
-:::'''(A)''' Appropriate sources:
-::::24-Ducey
-::::27-Bergantino
-::::30-Belgiorno
-::::34-WCBS
-::::35-Elton
-:::'''(B)''' Sources with questionable reliability:
-::::26-Alameda court record (I'm guessing this is probably fine for inclusion in Wikipedia, but I don't know the exact guidelines about this type of content, so I include it here for double-checking)
-::::28-Siverls lawsuit (the document looks appropriate, although I don't know what the Wiki standards are for accessing government documents second-hand on a non-official site -- has anyone else seen any guidelines regarding this?)
-::::29-Coroner's report (I have no reason to doubt that contacting the county would allow me to obtain the coroner's report, but again, I can't check it directly from the reference provided. I don't know if Wikipedia has standards governing verifiability of this type of document, or what they are -- anyone else have information?)
-::::32-Conners letter (per discussion on the [[Talk:Dahn yoga#Use_of_Letters_to_the_Editor_.28LTE.29_as_Source_Material|dahn yoga talk page]], this seems admissible under narrow circumstances, only to support statements about what the spokesperson said)
-::::33-Dahn Yoga FAQ (similar comment as previous item, although I don't see the material you quote on the page when I check it)
-:::'''(C)''' Sources that are not appropriate for Wikipedia:
-::::25-Ross (Cult News is described on the site as a "weblog", which does not qualify as a [[WP:RS|reliable source]])
-::::31-Ross (this is a page of links to copies of potentially-reliable sources, not a reliable source itself -- if the material is supportable, then it should be possible to use the original of these listed sources to support it)
-::'''(2)''' There is some question regarding whether all the new material is drawn directly from the sources cited, or whether there is some [[WP:OR|original research]] mixed in. Perhaps [[User:Nicola Cola|Nicola Cola]] could provide examples, or I could check the citations later (don't have time now).
-::In addition, it is worth noting that, "it is very important to place all critical material in the proper context, and ensure that an overall balanced view is provided. A balanced view does not need to be a sympathetic view—our article on Adolf Hitler does not portray him as a sensitive and misunderstood individual who was kind to his mother—but it does need to reflect the balance of opinion among reputable authorities.” (Quoted from the Wiki page on [[WP:TE|tendentious editing]]). It seems like there are concerns about balance between positive and negative material in the article.
-::One other point regarding balance is that the article length should also be in balance with the available source material. Articles about well-known and well-documented individuals should be longer than articles built from the number of ''legitimate'' sources that are available for this article. I wonder if the article as it stands now (with the most recent additions to the other sections) may actually be too long in proportion to his [[WP:N|notability]].
-::[[User:Forestgarden|Forestgarden]] ([[User talk:Forestgarden|talk]]) 04:00, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
-:::I have removed the material sourced solely by the references listed in section '''(C)''' above. If reliable sources can be found, the material can be worked back into the article, but removal was necessary based on the current sources. Also, please see [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Use_of_court_documents_as_reliable_sources| my post here] for the beginnings of discussion regarding the use of the first three sources listed in the '''(B)''' section -- I asked the Wiki community for help on this question.  [[User:Forestgarden|Forestgarden]] ([[User talk:Forestgarden|talk]]) 07:00, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
-::Thank you Forestgarden for your expertise.  I'll need a little more time to study all that you wrote, and will make necessary changes asap, but meanwhile I want to mention that the reason you can't find the Dahn Yoga FAQ question where they say it’s not a cult and not a religion is because they removed it immediately after it appeared here. Right now it is still accessible through the Google cache if someone searches and might be available thru Wayback in the future.  Also, I understand why you would think that Rick Ross's newsletter is not a reliable source, being a weblog, so I agree with the removal.  I don’t believe, though, that his Rick A. Ross Insitute site and Steve Hassan’s site should be, in effect, banned from Wikipedia as a source for the nature of a controversy regarding some living notables.   Their credentials are strong, and their sites will never appear balanced because of the nature of what they do.  They do link to other sources, and not all media articles are available (anymore) online, so contributors should at least be allowed to use their sites for that. I can see your point that the Ilchi Lee article might be too long relative to the notability (or notoriety, for that matter) of Ilchi Lee. But, I don’t think it’s because of my additions but because of the detailed account given of this person in the first place, especially with its PR advertising tone, e.g. the detailed outline of Ilchi Lee’s “BEST” program.  This article sounds like it was written by a devoted follower of this group, like one of the many Ilchi Lee fan blogs that appeared on the internet around the same time.  It cries out for the other side of the story and for the facts so that the reader can get a true perspective.  In fact, I would like to see removal of the detailed BEST outline, for one thing, and see a more objective, historical perspective written about this person. I am researching that now; it can take some time. Thanks. --[[User:Timelyheart|Timelyheart]] ([[User talk:Timelyheart|talk]]) 08:54, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
-== Regarding recent revisions to Personal History, Training Methods, and Philosophy sections ==
-[[User:TimelyHeart|TimelyHeart]], your zeal in adding to these sections is commendable, although it looks like a few goofs were made in following Wiki policies about sources (similar to the points discussed in the thread above). I have made some edits, the largest of which involved removing the paragraph discussing Tao Fellowship (there were some issues in the paragraph which I didn't address, because I'd decided to remove it). When I checked the documents available through the Arizona Corporations Commission for each of the business entities listed in the paragraph, I did not find any mention of Ilchi Lee or his given name Seung Heun Lee. Unless I'm missing something, this means there is no source provided that links him to Tao Fellowship, so it seemed like the whole paragraph was not relevant to the article, which is about him. If I am wrong, please accept my apologies and tell me what I missed. Thanks!   [[User:Forestgarden|Forestgarden]] ([[User talk:Forestgarden|talk]]) 08:04, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
-::If you click on the annual reports at the link I provided, you can see Seung Heun Lee is director.  The "Dahn Institute" record doesn't list Lee as a director (some of his associates are listed), but they are a non-profit entity located on the same property as the Tao Fellowship on Bill Gray Rd. in Sedona.  Here's another source on the address of the Dahn Institute. [http://pp6154864.dhcp.asu.edu/npdatabase.asp?NAV=3&txtSearch=&selOrder=corpnamesort&txtCity=&txtzip=&selntee=nocode&txtjump=D]  And, this link (whIch I hadn't included) shows the "Dahn Meditation Church," President Seung Heun Lee, in 1996.   [http://starpas.azcc.gov/scripts/cgiip.exe/WService=wsbroker1/history-detail.p?corp-id=07779292]  This link shows the "Sedona Ilchi Meditation Center" as a tradename belonging to Tao Fellowship (and they are described together on the Tao Fellowship Web site, which I did link to): [http://www.azsos.gov/scripts/TnT_Search_Engine.dll/ZoomTNT?NME_ID=311568&NME_CODE=NME] I believe I provided the information that you removed without any opinion or judgment connected to it. How is this information contentious? If not, why remove it rather than discuss it? --[[User:Timelyheart|Timelyheart]] ([[User talk:Timelyheart|talk]]) 10:14, 1 February 2008 (UTC)