Talk:U-KISS

Referencing

Ive been visiting this page for a long time, allow me to add reference to everything that was written here. Thank You. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JmKissme (talk • contribs) 11:46, 11 June 2011 (UTC)  Done

Members Section

There has been a Members Section added again on the page. Although i can see that it's just okay top put the infos. But i'm thinking that Wikipedia requires some sources. Please help in adding sources. jmarkfrancia (talk) 13:32, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

Page Cleaning

Hello, since the page of UKISS has been tagged for reimprovement and cleaning. I already fixed the data so it would fall in categories. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JmKissme (talk • contribs) 11:19, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Members section

For some time now a few editors have been trying repeatedly to insert a members section into this article with very trivial information such as blood type, weight, height, etc. Time and time again, trivial information like this has been removed from many bands, especially Korean boy bands or girl groups. Most if not all of the information should not be included because it bears no real significance to the band. As for what material might still fit in this article, it can be included in the general content, not in a list, of course only if it is sourced. I will again remove the members section, but if you disagree with me, make your argument here. Do not restore it again without bringing your arguments here. Sorafune +1 22:24, 9 June 2010 (UTC) jmarkfrancia (talk) 16:28, 21 January 2012 (UTC)  Done

Referencing

Hi everyone who's helping to edit this article. Thanks for your help in trying to help other people to understand and know U-KISS more. Just wondering, if anyone is familiar with the referencing process, can you please help to reference some websites for this article. Your help will be greatly appreciated! A referenced article is an article whom people trust more! Thankyou(: —Preceding unsigned comment added by Libeika (talk • contribs) 14:12, 1 September 2010 (UTC)  Done

 Done I already added Refernces to most parts of the page to make it reliably source. jmarkfrancia (talk) 04:35, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

Xander and Kibum leaving U-KISS

Yeah, I've heard about it just today and I must say I am very shocked.

However, I must say the level of unnecessary spam by the fans here is not good. This is Wikipedia, not a blog!!

Since I'm not that great at editing 'big' things on Wikipedia, because I'm too chicken to do so...someone please help? ^^ Because honestly I don't like seeing an article like this.

WTF is with the 'RIP GOOD UKISS' thing BTW?! o_0

Spongalicious (talk) 07:10, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from Jae91, 27 February 2011

{{edit semi-protected}}

The information regarding Kim Kibum's departure from the group has been addressed. According to Kibum, the company told the group that they were going to replace two of the members. Kibum was one of the members to be replaced and Alexander was the other. The company requested that Kibum sign a contract dissolution, which he signed because he saw within himself that he was indeed lacking as a singer.

Alexander's contract however was not cancelled, he was just pulled from the band.

http://www.allkpop.com/2011/02/kim-kibum-explains-his-departure-from-u-kiss http://www.allkpop.com/2011/02/u-kisss-kim-kibum-provides-further-detail-on-withdrawal-on-kbss-entertainers Jae91 (talk) 23:05, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

Not done: {{edit semi-protected}} is not required for edits to semi-protected, unprotected pages, or pending changes protected pages. Since the page is no longer protected, the edit can be made directly. I have no idea if the edit should be made or not, but that can be worked out through discussion if there is objection to the edit. Qwyrxian (talk) 02:08, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Members section

Please stop adding a "Members" section that only consists of the names and birth dates. 1) Birthdates are irrelevant to the topic of this article, the band. 2) Birthdates, even if they were somehow relevant REQUIRE SOURCES 3) A members section onsisting only of the names of the band is duplicative because it is already covered as it should be in the lead paragraph.

As long as inappropriate "Members" sections continue to be added, THEY WILL BE REMOVED ON SIGHT.Active Banana (^bananaphone 12:25, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

 Done

ahhahaahahha jkgbklgh no no more wikii what ever is it no more no more ahhahahaahha

UPDATING

If you are about to put information in the page and you are not sure where to put it, please post it in the talk page first so we can sort informations very well. And ofcourse, don't forget to add here the source. jmarkfrancia (talk) 08:06, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

A-Class Status

Do you think this article is qualified to be an A-Class Article? jmarkfrancia (talk) 10:23, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

• No. It's loaded with trivia and excessive detail, it's excessively wikilinked, and not well enough referenced. It's a fan page disguised as an article. Drmies (talk) 02:54, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

Full protection

I see an edit war about to start here. I see a big difference in opinion about how much detail to include. I have a hunch which side matches policy, but I'll leave it to all of you to sort out. Please note that this protection is not, in any way, an endorsement of the current version of the article; I simply protected it at the most recent edit. If you all can't come to an agreement, try dispute resolution. Since it looks like a major part of the concerns revolves around WP:UNDUE, I recommend that if discussion isn't fruitful here, you try the neutral point of view noticeboard, which handles UNDUE issues. Qwyrxian (talk) 11:26, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

• Fair enough. Well, let's start. *Sigh* Qwyrxian, do you have any idea how many of these fansites for Korean boy bands we have? If those editors would spend half that amount of time on subjects that really matter, we'd be riding high. BTW, I wish you had protected my version, haha. This is totally a mess, and I may go as for as calling on the BLP destructor. I think you know who I mean. Drmies (talk) 13:46, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

Current version and its various problems

The current, protected version is a mess and totally out of whack with Wikipedia's guidelines: trivia, excessive detail, unreliable sources--basically, fan talk. But before we tackle such stuff as WP:UNDUE and WP:RS, perhaps a clear violation of the BLP guidelines can be made clear; perhaps there is one thing we can agree on initially.

This edit is unacceptable. First of all, it bloats the article with trivial information which does it no favors--look, for instance, at how a Featured Article, U2, tackles the list of members: you'll have to look carefully and then you'll find four names in the infobox. That's all. Second, these people have their own articles, which is where ALL this information should be found. Third, the birth dates are unverified, and a quick look at Yeo Hoonmin tells me that it's not even verified in his own article. Obviously I am not counting the band's own site as a reliable sources. In short: it's not properly verified, it's out of place, it's redundant, it's not found in good articles--it's fan talk. Drmies (talk) 13:46, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

• Okay. I understand now. But can you please let me edit the page for a week, so i can sort and delete out-of-place and unimportant informations. Then ill let you check it after for another reimprovement? Please?. jmarkfrancia (talk) 04:41, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
  • I would love for you to go over this stuff, and I appreciate your excellent manners: they are really too good for this place, in that you don't have to ask permission to do anything. But you are showing a good collaborative spirit and that's great. Good luck! Drmies (talk) 13:15, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

I have just rolled back two IP edits, and I am about to semi-protect the talk page. I believe that this will be my first "offical" Rouge admin act. While I have no reason to believe that those edits were wrong, I believe that the only way we can make progress on this article is to give JmKissme a little space to do the revisions he speaks of. I think a week is a little bit long, but I don't think lasting damage will be done, so I'm going to hit SP for 1 week. Note, though, that during/after that time, we do need to attend to the WP:UNDUE, WP:OR, and WP:FANCRUFT issues that Drmies raises above. Let's try to bring this article under control (i.e., so that it covers the band in an encyclopedic way); exactly where that line lies will need to be determined by interested editors. Qwyrxian (talk) 07:25, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

I did reimprove the Life and Career portion but it is kinda hard to gather some references that's why i asked for a week. Anyways, thank you for letting me edit ang improve the page. May i just ask if the Members section is already acceptable or it is better to just remove the details for each member and just list them? I just had an ocular inspection to other Korean boyband articles in Wikipedia (especially the page of SHINee wherein it is listed as Good Article), it has also a members section same to this article. I need your opinion regarding this one. Thank you. jmarkfrancia (talk) 08:59, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

Stick with a list. That's enough, and it's unproblematic in that it does not require verification. Thanks for your interest, JmKissme. Drmies (talk) 22:19, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

Okay. Got it. Thank you for your effort to edit the page. I will continue to monitor this page, just in case some editors are trying to add again the members info. :)) jmarkfrancia (talk) 01:20, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 11 September 2012

A lot of the positions of this team is wrong. Dongho- Sub-Vocalist, Rapper, Maknae; Soohyun- Main Vocalist, Leader; Kiseop- Sub-Vocalist, Main Dancer, Visual; Eli- Main Rapper; Hoon- Lead Vocalist; AJ- Lead Rapper; Kevin- Main Vocalist, Lead Dancer; 143.88.0.213 (talk) 16:44, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. A boat that can float! (watch me float!) 17:12, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

Note: User:203.173.214.122 changed the answered state of this request without providing any additional details. I am resetting it to answered.  — daranz [ t ] 20:08, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

• Those aren't the official positions listed under any of their official sites therefore, they cannot be included. And Maknae and Visuals are a position. You don't have a specific role for being the youngest or the most beautiful. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.63.162.169 (talk) 18:04, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

Members table

Please do not re-add the member table. Use a simple list with stage and given names or put them in prose. The goal is to have a nice section in prose eventually. However, since most members have their own articles, it is not really needed on this particular article. Member tables are bulky and add no relevant information to the article; birthdays are not appropriate on group articles. Please take a look at articles of groups outside kpop for further guidance. Thanks and happy editing! :) Shinyang-i (talk) 05:12, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

I don't understand why you and your clique keep messing with multiple KPOP related articles and keep retracting valid information. I suspect one of you (TerryAlex, Dr.K, Drmies, you) to have deleted Lee Kiseop's wikipedia page as well. I'm now aware that your group is for some reason editing and deleting information from KPOP articles for no reason other than spite and dislike for Korean Entertainment.

First of all, how could you cite UKISS' Japanese profiles and then get their own names wrong? It's LEE Jun-Young not KIM Jun-Young. It's YEO HoonMin not TEO HoonMin. Why are you editing something and citing at the end when you don't even bother to check the cite itself? Then you keep reverting changed to the version with error. That's ridiculous.

How are members tables bulky? They organize the area and make it easier to comprehend the roles/names/ages/etc. of each member. It's important to recognize age as well as whether a member is currently active or not in the group itself. It doesn't matter if some of the members have their own wikipedia articles, there is no harm in adding their ages/roles on the main group article. UKISS' Wikipedia page had always had almost a members table until you recently changed it.

Listing the member's names like you have done is entirely messy as you've added no organization into the list.

Let me add the members table back in, I will cite it so that will not be a problem. It looks way more organized. Tables are not bulky, they are obviously there to organize information. Members names are already listed in the start paragraph of UKISS' article so what is the point of having them listed again in such an unorganized way? If the information is both on their official Korean and Japanese websites then why do you consider it so unnecessary to the point where you just can't stand the sight of birthdates and ages in Korean Group articles? Venate (talk) 23:05, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure TerryAlex and Shinyang-i are both K-pop fans. Don't forget to WP:AGF. See Talk:Girls' Generation#Member section and the other discussions I linked there for the reasoning behind removing the tables. --Random86 (talk) 23:56, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

Then I can only assume they are not familiar UKISS when they can't even get the member's names correctly and revert claiming no errors... Skimming the Girl's Generation talk page the only reasoning I see behind removing Members tables is basically because Drmies doesn't like it and in his own opinion it is unnecessary and bulky. In his opinion. I can see the obvious bias that Drmies has when he lists Bands outside of KPOP saying they're members are "obviously more notable" than a Korean Idol group member. All I see is pure bias, I can't account that as proper reasoning. Venate (talk) 00:35, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

I just converted the table to another format and I made a typo. So sue me and fix it. That's how Wikipedia works; people make typos all the time and others fix them. No one goes screaming bloody murder at the typo-maker. By the way, no one has the authority to just randomly delete pages, Wikipedia doesn't make it technically possible. I have no idea what happened with Lee Kiseop's article, but it had to have gone through an entire deletion process on which any editor was allowed to comment. As far as your claims about the importance of age, it may be important to you, but this is an encyclopedia, not a U-KISS fan page. It's not necessary to have that kind of data for individuals within a group on Wikipedia. If reliably sourced, it belongs on an individual's article. If an individual is not notable enough to have their own article, then their birthday and age is not important enough to go on Wikipedia. If you want to make more detail, put non-trivial information in prose. Throwing around accusations of personal motivations on the part of other editors will get you no progress at all. If you want a good article, then work to add meaningful, encyclopedic information on the members, not non-explanatory tables full of trivia. If these people are so important to you, I'd think you'd want to represent them as real human beings and not make their biography look like their profile on an agency's website. Shinyang-i (talk) 02:01, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

Venate, Lee Kiseop was deleted back in 2013 (see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Lee Kiseop). I had a look at the other members' pages and they are a mess. I nominated one for deletion already. --Random86 (talk) 02:06, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

The issue I had with you was that you kept reverting to the errored version and TerryAlex claimed there to be no error in it. That proves neither of you bothered to even check the selection nor the citation. Replacing "Lee" with "Kim" isn't exactly a slip of the finger, let's be honest here. The reason I made an account here was to claim the importance of having a members table for ORGANIZATION. The members of the band are obviously relevant to the band, the ages of these band mates are therefore relevant as well. I'm not sure why you think they wouldn't be relevant? In KPOP in general age tends to be important, not even KPOP but Korean culture, so why are you trying to pass off birthdates as irrelevant and useless information? The members table would also add member positions which tend to be quite important. There's nothing wrong with adding an organizational table and nothing about it misrepresents them as human beings. Make some sense here.

As someone who would frequently check this wikipedia article, I find birthdates/ages important information. By adding a table on this article, it's an easy way for me and several others to check valid information in one place. I'm willing to compromise and not add a table for past members but I find it laughable that you consider ages/birthdates are considered "trivial information." It only takes up one column, and updates automatically so why is it an issue? It will look much better than writing it out and is easier to comprehend. The members section will have actual meaning. The tables are not "full of trivia" it is their names, ages, birthdates, positions, that's it. All of which are relevant information. If we were being trivial we would be adding Blood Types and shoe sizes to the mix!

I was not aware that Lee Kiseop's page was deleted in 2013. My mistake. Which member did you nominate up for deletion? Why would you want to delete their articles instead of trying to add to it and clean it up yourself? How counterproductive. Most of the members of this group have had multiple activities outside of group activities and UKISS. You call it a mess because you personally have an issue with it then fix it and make it better, don't delete delete delete because you personally don't find information on the member relevant or important. Venate (talk) 05:23, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

I nominated Shin Soohyun because he is clearly not notable. If someone is not notable you can't fix that. Some of the other members don't look notable either. It doesn't matter what I find relevant or important; I'm only going by Wikipedia guidelines. --Random86 (talk) 08:09, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

Just want to sort out a couple of things here: In your edit summary, you put "Do not change this please. previous info was incorrect", so I assumed that you meant the table. If it was something like "members' names were incorrect", other editors would have been notified right away. Even so, the position was still unsourced. The members (except for 3) have their individual articles, you can find the specific info about them on their pages instead.

Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a directory of things. Don't make the argument that it's K-pop. K-pop is no exception. Not everything is supposed to be on here. Wikipedia has a guideline, it needs "proper sources" WP:UNSOURCED and notability WP:GNG. If you care so much about any particular artist, then please improve it. Add the proper citation and show that the artist is notable. For Shin Soohyun though, he does not have any notability outside of his group, so it's not appropriate for him to have a standalone article. Please read WP:MUS. His existence alone does not qualify for his notability.

Instead of arguing about the members' table, elaborate about those members and their important roles. Like I said, prove it. If you can, also elaborate why K-pop is unique and different along the way. If they really "had multiple activities outside of group activities and UKISS", then find the reliable sources, and say something like this "He is the leader of the group. He has done this, this and this for UKiss. Outside of the group, he has also done this, this and this...". Prove it, add back the position too (with proper sources). Now, the section would be much more meaningful because we understand their important roles within the group.--TerryAlex (talk) 09:01, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

Ah, I understand part of the issue now! :) It wasn't necessary to include a table in order to correct erroneous information. That's what was so confusing when the table kept showing up again with the claim that the non-table was an error. It sounded like you meant the lack of table itself was an error, at least to me, that's why we kept saying "it's not an error." Again, errors, typos, etc get made all the time because we're all humans - I've apologized for the mistake, and I apologize again. Sounds like we were all a little unclear at that time about what the others meant It's over, so let's move on. :) Edit summaries aren't really the best place to try to "talk" - that's what talk pages are for! :)

I think part of the conflict here is a bit of a difference in expectations between what many kpop fans are used to from kpop agencies and fan-based media, versus what Wikipedia strives to be. This isn't about personal preference of editors though, or of what some editors are accustomed to, it's about constantly making the article better and better according to Wikipedia standards. "Quick reference" isn't really Wikipedia's goal, and information should be presented in an encyclopedic way. A norm on Wikipedia is to refer to articles that have attained "Good Article" status for reference. They can serve as role models. Big Bang is one such article - it has no member table, no birthdays. (G-Dragon's article, also a "GA", has his birthday in the lead and infobox, like most biographical articles for individuals do.) Look at pretty much any article for any band - boybands included - outside kpop: no member tables. It's not about what's important in kpop; age is not enormously more important in kpop than it is in any other country's entertainment industry. There's simply not a justification for making standards vastly different for kpop in this case, according to Wikipedia.

Even if I were to say "okay, birthdays are fine" (which I'm not, because I don't think Wikipedia considers them appropriate - who cares about my personal preference)...but if birthdays were okay, a table is still a bad idea if, for no other reason, that once in place they are subject to sprawl. What I mean by that a table that starts out with just names and birthdays soon includes blood types, favorite color, zodiac sign, birthplace, height and weight, nicknames, and everything else you can imagine. Just the other day I had to remove a bunch of stuff like that from a table. It's like the urge to expand tables is in human DNA or something, seriously! Kpop editors tend to look at other kpop articles to figure out what's okay instead of reading policies and guidelines or even looking at non-kpop articles. So once the table goes onto one page, there's one on all the other pages, and they're all full of every little bit of info you can imagine. But more importantly, tables don't facilitate any kind of discussion about anything listed there. It's just "hey, here's a factoid, bam!" and that's it. For example, hometowns in a table: was the person born and raised there? Were they just born there? Were they just raised there? Did they just move there six months before joining the group? What? How much nicer it would be to read, in prose, a discussion of that - "he was born in Busan but moved to Incheon when he was 12, where he attended Blah Blah High School before joining The Group." Overall, Wikipedia wants kpop articles - like all other articles - to be professional, well-written, and informative to anyone who reads them. It's not meant to just be a reference for fans, and it's meant to be read, not glanced at.

One quick note regarding the Shin Soohyun article: most editors look at the article to see if it shows evidence for notability of the subject. Currently, the article does not mention a single solo activity away from U-KISS and there is no evidence of individual notability. So then an editor might look to see if the article is brand new and possibly unfinished. This article is nearly five years old. Next an editor does a quick search of the internet to see if the subject is mentioned in reliable secondary sources. If he can't find any, then he may nominate the page for deletion on the grounds the subject isn't notable. Just now I searched online for Shin Soohyun and found no reliable sources talking about him. Like the nominator, this looks like a good candidate for deletion to me, too. However, the great thing about the deletion process is it puts concerned editors "on notice". If the page is, for example, outdated and he's done notable solo activities recently, his article can be updated with reliable sources showing such activity. Editors can also comment on the deletion discussion about why the article should or shouldn't be kept, basing their comments on Wikipedia standards. If you are concerned, I really urge you to update his page with evidence from reliable secondary sources of his solo activities. But if he's not notable, then he's not notable, and nothing can change that. However, he can always become notable in the future! :) I hope some of what I've said is helpful. I'm glad you've registered and ID and will work to make the U-KISS page the best possible article. Shinyang-i (talk) 09:14, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

I've been keeping an eye on the group of users/editors you're part of and noticed that the majority of edits are only taking away from articles. I can't help but be skeptical to your motives when your group whom all share the same self righteous ideas on how KPOP wikipedia articles should be. If your group was adding just as much content as it was taking away, I wouldn't be skeptical but it seems like that isn't the case going through everyone's contribution logs. I would love to assume you all have good intentions but your reasoning and logs point otherwise....Beyond what the bendable and even vague Wikipedia guidelines, don't you find it important for a reader to find what they're looking for when they search up an article? The reason many KPOP pages no longer have members tables are because they were removed. The Kpop members table template seemed to be pretty common until almost all of them disappeared (were edited by you and/or your group) from articles. I wouldn't compare KPOP groups to Bands outside of KPOP because they're for a different audience as well as part of a different culture. Hangul/romanized names of the group serve as importance as well as ages/birthdates in KPOP as well as the Korean Culture. The commonly used KPOP members template is not already modified to include things such as blood type or height etc. so that argument is invalid. If someone were to add an extra column to the table for less relevant information it could easily be taken out while leaving the rest of the table intact. I know that the UKISS article had never added extra columns in their old members table for blood type or any other information. The default table was only what was relevant and that was that, I can't recall anyone ever adding extra columns to UKISS' table or to most KPOP tables, if so only a small minority which can be easily fixed. I don't see anywhere in Wikipedia rules that Member tables are against policy so I don't see the harm in them whatsoever. Wikipedia is one of the first pages which pops up someone searches for a Group or Idol (if they have a page) so it is often times used for quick reference, therefore having an organizational table would be helpful and is in no way bringing down the quality of the article itself. You say theres simply not a justification for a table but there is also no justifications as to why not add a table for KPOP group members. Age is more referenced in Korean culture than it is in other cultures such as western cultures, examples: having a position for the youngest member of the group (maknae), speaking in respectful/formal language to those even a few days older than you, leaders are often times the oldest of the group, etc. It can also be notable that readers may be confused by KPOP bands Korean ages vs. Actual ages because Koreans tend to add a year or so to their actual age so it would be helpful to add the automatic age under members sections. There are just so many more reasons to favor a members table/ages/birthdates in the members section then to oppose it. Tables are used to show facts such as how in discography areas they are used to show chart positions or # of units sold. It doesn't have to create a discussion to be useful. It is informative, it's giving the reader straight information in an organized fashion. Venate (talk) 04:22, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

You really need to slow down, stop assuming we have bad intentions, and stop the personal attacks. I don't know if you are including me in your "group" but I have spent plenty of time adding information to Wikipedia. If you only want to see the "bad" that's up to you. If you took the time to read everything I linked earlier you will know that one of the main reasons member tables and birthdays were removed is because Drmies started removing them. They have since been removed on all pages to have consistency. If you want this to change, don't talk to just us because we can't necessarily do anything about it. (I personally don't have a problem with birthdays being included.) The member tables were often redundant because many K-pop idols don't have a stage name, and the stage/birth name columns had repeated information. If you want the birthdays included in the article, you will have to talk to Drmies yourself or perhaps seek dispute resolution. You could also try posting on a noticeboard. For example, you could ask at WP:RSN if agency websites can be used as a source for birthdates (this was one of Drmies' concerns). --Random86 (talk) 05:07, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

Paran

Venate Please explain how Paran is an associated act. They are not mentioned in the article so proof is required. Thanks. --Random86 (talk) 01:19, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

Paran is an associated act because member AJ is a former member of Paran. Paran were under NH Media before disbandment which is the same company as UKISS. Also UKISS did a collaboration track with Paran on their NEVERLAND album in 2012 called "다시 만나요 (We'll Meet Again)." Venate (talk) 03:37, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

I don't think it meets the the standard, because the groups only have one member in common and there was only one song collaboration. See Template:Infobox musical artist. --Random86 (talk) 04:48, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

As someone who knows UKISS well I think it does meet the standard! No where there does it imply it doesn't meet standard. Especially since the group was the only other boy group under NH Media at the same time as UKISS. Venate (talk) 05:22, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

Did you read what I linked? It says "The following uses of this field should be avoided: Groups with only one member in common; One-time collaboration for a single, or on a single song" I'm not sure what you mean by "No where there does it imply it doesn't meet standard". Being under the same company doesn't make the acts associated. --Random86 (talk) 05:39, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

References

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Kibum.

I think it's a bit missleading to simply write that kibum left the group. His contract was terminated by the agency because they wanted a member change since they felt he didn't have enough talent to fit into the group.Peachywink (talk) 16:29, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

Revert of the table of concerts

I reverted the addition of the concert table. In my edit-summary, I referred to the concerts as unsourced. I realise now that the concerts on the table are also described in the article text where they are cited. This means the table is redundant because the concerts are described and cited in the prose. Dr. K. 22:52, 3 March 2020 (UTC)