Talk:Jure Francetić: Difference between revisions
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{{WikiProject banner shell|class=B|living=n|listas=Francetic, Jure|1= |
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{{WikiProject Biography|military-work-group=yes|military-priority=Low}} |
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{{WikiProject Military history|class=B |
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|b1 <!-- Referencing and citations --> =y |
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|b2 <!-- Coverage and accuracy --> =y |
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|b3 <!-- Structure --> =y |
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|b4 <!-- Grammar and style --> =y |
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|b5 <!-- Supporting materials --> =y |
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|Balkan=y|Biography=y|WWII=y}} |
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{{WikiProject Bosnia and Herzegovina|importance=mid}} |
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{{WikiProject Croatia|importance=mid}} |
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{{WikiProject Political culture|fascism=yes|class=start}} |
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{{WPMILHIST|class=start|B1=yes|B2=yes|B3=yes|B4=yes|B5=no|Balkan=yes|Biography=yes|WWII=yes |
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== WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Tag & Assess 2008 == |
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Article reassessed and graded as start class. --[[User:Dashiellx|dashiellx]] ([[User talk:Dashiellx|talk]]) 18:54, 13 May 2008 (UTC) |
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== Some explanations == |
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I've got a number of books and articles providing a bit partial information about Francetic's life. Succeeded in replacing the old text (which was written more or less as a propaganda pamphlet) by information gathered from the references and assembled it logically. Left POV tag - for seeing most of the remaining (unchanged) text as the un-sourced and biased.--[[Special:Contributions/72.75.20.29|72.75.20.29]] ([[User talk:72.75.20.29|talk]]) 21:47, 25 January 2009 (UTC) |
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*Some parts of the (remaining) text are not covered yet by references. Still did not insert {fact} hoping find the reference and come back later.--[[Special:Contributions/72.75.20.29|72.75.20.29]] ([[User talk:72.75.20.29|talk]]) 00:43, 27 January 2009 (UTC) |
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== Totally unverified == |
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There is not one single source mentioned in the references that can be verified.All these are books (from ex-yugoslavia authors). That is why putting tamplate |
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<nowiki>{{verify}}</nowiki> is 100% justified.--[[User:Aradic-es|Añtó| Àntó]] ([[User talk:Aradic-es|talk]]) 15:02, 1 February 2009 (UTC) |
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*All sources are fully verifiable. The books are available in libraries of the academic institutions across the world. Moreover the Alexander Arnon testimony is available online here [http://www.vex.net/~nizkor/hweb/people/e/eichmann-adolf/transcripts/Sessions/Session-046-04.html]. Did you read any of the references given in the article?--[[Special:Contributions/72.75.20.29|72.75.20.29]] ([[User talk:72.75.20.29|talk]]) 16:50, 1 February 2009 (UTC) |
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1. Alexander Armon's testimony says about ustaše- but nothing about Francetić. So, it is relevant for article [[Ustaše]]-not this one. |
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== NO OBJECTIVITY == |
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First sentence is talking he was a mass murderer |
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It is of course, a lie |
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When I read of Chetnik mass murderers, they are portrayed as guerillas, even though they killed 200 000 Muslims during ww2 |
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Francetić did not kill Muslims, or Serbs - Muslims were in the army together, and there is not even one historical evidence of a single civilians death by him - only Italian lies - what are ''Italian lies''? - Italy made an argument with the Chetniks, and told them plans for the destruction of them(Chetniks). Francetić regardless of the battle plan made with Italians and Germans, with 1 000 Ustache attacked fortified 10 000 Chetnik posts, and conquered them(Chetniks). Italians, who made a contract with the Chetniks, raged, and started to lie against Francetić and his ''Black legion'', so the Germans disbanded Black legion. |
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Of course, Communism regime was for 50 years in Croatia, and the truth would hurt them - Communistic regime told ''their'' story, which made them ''liberators'' - all teh data you have from Yugoslav wars are going pro Partisans - because they won the war, and killed all who told the truth - it was perfect for them - take this to concider if you want truth - if you want something else - your problem (book = YU - Genocide) <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/93.143.28.134|93.143.28.134]] ([[User talk:93.143.28.134|talk]]) 08:40, 22 June 2012 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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== HOS battalions "Jure Francetic" == |
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2. All these cited "books" are not verifiable by internet. I could also "cite" some "books" wtitten by author "XX" , fictional names and authors. But that is not the point. |
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Not only was at least one HOS battalion named after Francetic, but there was also a "Jure Francetic" Brigade of the HVO in the Zenica area in 1992-93 during the Croat-Muslim War. The HOS 13th Tomislavgrad Battalion was definitely named for him see [http://books.google.com.au/books?id=jodpAAAAMAAJ&q=%22HOS+battalion%22&dq=%22HOS+battalion%22&source=bl&ots=pdxdxNy7jv&sig=DMWY3zquYr7BbAJ6Z8q10DAwrQA&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ObR2UJqaGqLtiAefoIE4&sqi=2&ved=0CDMQ6AEwAQ], which also mentions the 9th "Rafael Boban" Battalion as well. Shrader mentions the "Jure Francetic" Brigade on pages 89 and 116 here [http://books.google.com.au/books?id=1_ceXJTw71MC&printsec=frontcover&dq=king+tomislav+brigade+hvo&source=bl&ots=aKB5NKxqIO&sig=6NnRohSy-rw28CrKhKEuu80LZqY&hl=en&sa=X&ei=4LR2UN2rMLGSiQfxgoCoDw&ved=0CFQQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=francetic&f=false]. I'll add the references to the article soon. Not sure about the 19th Gospic Battalion though. [[User:Peacemaker67|Peacemaker67]] ([[User talk:Peacemaker67|talk]]) 12:23, 11 October 2012 (UTC) |
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--[[User:Aradic-es|Añtó| Àntó]] ([[User talk:Aradic-es|talk]]) 16:27, 2 February 2009 (UTC) |
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:I've added the refs and cites. [[User:Peacemaker67|Peacemaker67]] ([[User talk:Peacemaker67|talk]]) 10:04, 12 October 2012 (UTC) |
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* No necessity for a reference to be verifiable over the Internet. Arnon's testimony is a complementary information. Please, avoid further vandalization of this article.--[[Special:Contributions/72.75.20.29|72.75.20.29]] ([[User talk:72.75.20.29|talk]]) 01:52, 3 February 2009 (UTC) |
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* Many books are digitized - and therefore online verifiable. The others - not digitized - are available publicly through the US public library system--[[Special:Contributions/71.252.55.101|71.252.55.101]] ([[User talk:71.252.55.101|talk]]) 19:31, 14 February 2009 (UTC) |
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== Unreliable Sources == |
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What you cite are couple of "books " whose neutrality and reliability is not checked at all. They can not be verified by web (neither 1 single of them!!) -so we can not check neither their existence!!!These things might not be relevanti in some cases but issues like these (war and war crimes)-they are essential.--[[User:Aradic-es|Añtó| Àntó]] ([[User talk:Aradic-es|talk]]) 08:54, 2 March 2009 (UTC) |
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I'm seeing a lot of unreliable sources in this article even some written by NDH officials themselves. --<span style="font-family:xx-medium serif;">◅ [[User:PRODUCER|<span style="color:black; letter-spacing: 0.2cm;">PRODUCER</span>]] <small>([[User talk:PRODUCER|<span style="color:black;">TALK</span>]])</small></span> 15:36, 11 October 2012 (UTC) |
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:According to Wikipedia policies, books can be used as sources and referenced without any problem. It is completely irrelevant weather the book is published on the internet. If a book is published, that means that it's available from libraries and/or bookstores, and so it can be verified. There is no single word in any Wikipedia policy that says internet links are preferred over books. See: [[WP:CITE]]. [[User:Vanjagenije|Vanjagenije]] ([[User talk:Vanjagenije|talk]]) 11:22, 29 June 2010 (UTC) |
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:Which ones, PRODUCER? I think this article is close to MILHIST B-Class, so we should weed out anything dubious now. [[User:Peacemaker67|Peacemaker67]] ([[User talk:Peacemaker67|talk]]) 06:44, 12 October 2012 (UTC) |
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::I'm sure you already know my view regarding locally published sources, but to answer your question, here are the worst offenders: |
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::*Eugen Dido Kvaternik, an NDH official |
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::*Jakov Blažević, a politician of SR Croatia |
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::*Nisim Albahari, a politician of SR Bosnia and Herzegovina |
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::*Vjesnik articles dating back to the 1970s |
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::*HSP political website |
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::--<span style="font-family:xx-medium serif;">◅ [[User:PRODUCER|<span style="color:black; letter-spacing: 0.2cm;">PRODUCER</span>]] <small>([[User talk:PRODUCER|<span style="color:black;">TALK</span>]])</small></span> 10:01, 12 October 2012 (UTC) |
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== External links modified == |
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So according to "policy", we could claim that all crimes committed in the United States by blacks v whites v latinos, etc. MUST BE racist in nature because author A,B or C wrote a book positing such a claim. This logic is '''COMPLETELY''' flawed in substance. Therefore, this site is merely a mouthpiece for the spreading of propaganda and its like by those who offer no proof of substance. I could write that book myself and then claim its validity. Your logic has smeared the name of this person without a single shred of proof that would stand up in a court of law! Wise up! <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:GDrinjanin|GDrinjanin]] ([[User talk:GDrinjanin|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/GDrinjanin|contribs]]) 23:02, 19 June 2011 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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Hello fellow Wikipedians, |
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== Edit warring: warning == |
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I have just modified one external link on [[Jure Francetić]]. Please take a moment to review [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?diff=prev&oldid=777855647 my edit]. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit [[User:Cyberpower678/FaQs#InternetArchiveBot|this simple FaQ]] for additional information. I made the following changes: |
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I can see a lot of edit warring here, and very little use of the talk page. This is a Bad Thing and will lead to people - probably nice cute hearts-in-the-right-place people getting blocked if they don't take care [[User:William M. Connolley|William M. Connolley]] ([[User talk:William M. Connolley|talk]]) 16:00, 1 March 2009 (UTC) |
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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20130927003423/http://www.ex-yupress.com/nacional/nacional7.html to http://www.ex-yupress.com/nacional/nacional7.html |
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When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs. |
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{{sourcecheck|checked=false|needhelp=}} |
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== Holocaust template == |
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Putting Holocaust template here is nonsense beacause Jure Francetić is not mentioned in it. |
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--[[User:Aradic-es|Añtó| Àntó]] ([[User talk:Aradic-es|talk]]) 08:56, 2 March 2009 (UTC) |
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*Many things are not mentioned in the template - but still strongly related to the Holocaust. Please, read the Encyclopeadia of the Holocaust.--[[User:Historian35|Historian35]] ([[User talk:Historian35|talk]]) 19:00, 26 September 2009 (UTC) |
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Cheers.—[[User:InternetArchiveBot|'''<span style="color:darkgrey;font-family:monospace">InternetArchiveBot</span>''']] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">([[User talk:InternetArchiveBot|Report bug]])</span> 18:32, 29 April 2017 (UTC) |
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== Memorials == |
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Memorials in a tribute of Francetić is raised in his honour. We may not agree/disagree with it but we can't talk what was in heads of these people that put it. They wanted to glorify him-YES,obviously. But did they wanted to express their hateridge towards Serbs or smbd else it is not proven. Especially not to anonymous in Split. The others are specualations.--[[User:Aradic-es|Añtó| Àntó]] ([[User talk:Aradic-es|talk]]) 09:07, 2 March 2009 (UTC) |
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*References are given and clear |
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---- <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/138.88.15.10|138.88.15.10]] ([[User talk:138.88.15.10|talk]]) 00:34, 3 March 2009 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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**To whom?? You??? [[User:Aradic-es|Añtó| Àntó]] ([[User talk:Aradic-es|talk]]) 08:47, 6 March 2009 (UTC) |
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== External links modified == |
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== Edit request from Klosharz, 12 January 2011 == |
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Hello fellow Wikipedians, |
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{{Tld|edit semi-protected}} |
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<!-- Begin request --> |
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The basic information about Jure Francetić is completely false. It says that he is responsible for massacres of Serbs and Jews, which is complety off track. He was the comander of the Croatian elite army forces calles "Crna Legija" or "The Black Legion". The Black legion has nothing to do with murdering civilians or any inocent people. The Black legion only gained combat with enemy armies that involved: Serbian fascists Chetnicks and Communist Partizan(which were united in 1944). |
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<!-- End request --> |
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[[User:Klosharz|Klosharz]] ([[User talk:Klosharz|talk]]) 21:11, 12 January 2011 (UTC) |
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I have just modified one external link on [[Jure Francetić]]. Please take a moment to review [[special:diff/813041790|my edit]]. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit [[User:Cyberpower678/FaQs#InternetArchiveBot|this simple FaQ]] for additional information. I made the following changes: |
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{{ESp|rs}} The information appears to be well sourced to me. If you have sources that disagree, please make a new edit request and present them here. In addition, please propose a wording that we can use for the counter-theory. It's okay for us to report two competing theories as long as both are well cited. [[User:Qwyrxian|Qwyrxian]] ([[User talk:Qwyrxian|talk]]) 00:02, 13 January 2011 (UTC) |
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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120425231514/http://hsp-cepin.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=47&Itemid=56 to http://hsp-cepin.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=47&Itemid=56 |
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==[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jure_Franceti%C4%87#War_and_war_crimes War and war crimes]== |
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{{sourcecheck|checked=false|needhelp=}} |
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''Francetić participated personally in arresting and interrogations of prominent Serbian and Jewish leaders (Miškina, Albahari)[11]'' |
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Cheers.—[[User:InternetArchiveBot|'''<span style="color:darkgrey;font-family:monospace">InternetArchiveBot</span>''']] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">([[User talk:InternetArchiveBot|Report bug]])</span> 11:36, 1 December 2017 (UTC) |
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Who is this Miškina? Do we know his first name? Certainly not [[Mihovil Pavlek Miškina]]. [[User:Rovoobo|<b><font color="Blue">Ro</font><font color="Green">voo</font><font color="Blue">bo</font></b>]] [[User talk:Rovoobo|<b><font color="Blue">ob</font><font color="Green">oov</font><font color="Blue">oR</font></b>]] 13:26, 13 January 2011 (UTC) |
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NO OBJECTIVITY
[edit]First sentence is talking he was a mass murderer It is of course, a lie When I read of Chetnik mass murderers, they are portrayed as guerillas, even though they killed 200 000 Muslims during ww2 Francetić did not kill Muslims, or Serbs - Muslims were in the army together, and there is not even one historical evidence of a single civilians death by him - only Italian lies - what are Italian lies? - Italy made an argument with the Chetniks, and told them plans for the destruction of them(Chetniks). Francetić regardless of the battle plan made with Italians and Germans, with 1 000 Ustache attacked fortified 10 000 Chetnik posts, and conquered them(Chetniks). Italians, who made a contract with the Chetniks, raged, and started to lie against Francetić and his Black legion, so the Germans disbanded Black legion. Of course, Communism regime was for 50 years in Croatia, and the truth would hurt them - Communistic regime told their story, which made them liberators - all teh data you have from Yugoslav wars are going pro Partisans - because they won the war, and killed all who told the truth - it was perfect for them - take this to concider if you want truth - if you want something else - your problem (book = YU - Genocide) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.143.28.134 (talk) 08:40, 22 June 2012 (UTC)
HOS battalions "Jure Francetic"
[edit]Not only was at least one HOS battalion named after Francetic, but there was also a "Jure Francetic" Brigade of the HVO in the Zenica area in 1992-93 during the Croat-Muslim War. The HOS 13th Tomislavgrad Battalion was definitely named for him see [1], which also mentions the 9th "Rafael Boban" Battalion as well. Shrader mentions the "Jure Francetic" Brigade on pages 89 and 116 here [2]. I'll add the references to the article soon. Not sure about the 19th Gospic Battalion though. Peacemaker67 (talk) 12:23, 11 October 2012 (UTC)
- I've added the refs and cites. Peacemaker67 (talk) 10:04, 12 October 2012 (UTC)
Unreliable Sources
[edit]I'm seeing a lot of unreliable sources in this article even some written by NDH officials themselves. --◅ PRODUCER (TALK) 15:36, 11 October 2012 (UTC)
- Which ones, PRODUCER? I think this article is close to MILHIST B-Class, so we should weed out anything dubious now. Peacemaker67 (talk) 06:44, 12 October 2012 (UTC)
- I'm sure you already know my view regarding locally published sources, but to answer your question, here are the worst offenders:
- Eugen Dido Kvaternik, an NDH official
- Jakov Blažević, a politician of SR Croatia
- Nisim Albahari, a politician of SR Bosnia and Herzegovina
- Vjesnik articles dating back to the 1970s
- HSP political website
- --◅ PRODUCER (TALK) 10:01, 12 October 2012 (UTC)
- I'm sure you already know my view regarding locally published sources, but to answer your question, here are the worst offenders:
External links modified
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External links modified
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