Talk:Suburban Express: Difference between revisions

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Conventional Media Links Not Related to WP:EVENT Above

I found these newspaper articles from the 1980s and 1990s to be helpful in bringing out the notable monopoly/price-war/predatory-pricing aspects of the immediate "post-deregulation" era. As stated in earlier votes/discussions of the notability of Suburban Express (whether to have an article or not at all), price-and-capacity "wars" were new and notable in the USA "back then". KevinCuddeback (talk) 15:29, 9 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Subject's Self-Published Sources (from Archive.org)

Because the subject itself can be the source, some historical Suburban Express web pages from the Internet Archives, as suggested, should be referenced because they make un-exceptional claims about the "starts" of things along the company growth-path (usually +/- weeks, and near-always within 1 semester). It would be entirely "in character" for a bus company to accurately describe its services as-then-offered, and out of character to describe a phantom service.

I agree with the basic premise above; such sources can be used to support basic claims and data about the company and its products. I work a good bit on spaceflight-related articles and such sources are typically what we use to source the basic specs of launch vehicles and spacecraft. I'm agnostic on the specifics of the following list. Cheers. N2e (talk) 15:23, 22 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

So far, I have used these to support the start-year of kiosk ticketing (I selected 2002, as the "official" start, rather than the 2001 "trial") and service to University of Iowa.KevinCuddeback (talk) 16:08, 22 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

1983 Brochure with self-headline of "Thanksgiving Express" (02/10/2003): Thanksgiving Express!
(still, sadly, a 15-year gap here)
1998 website launch: SuburbanExpress.com (12/12/1998): Suburban Express Home Page
2001 Introduction of self-service ticket kiosks (06/07/2001): Self-Service Ticketing
2002 First offer of O'Hare/Midway service (connecting only) (04/07/2002): O'Hare & Midway Service
2003 9 buses in company-owned fleet (02/10/2003): Some Trivia...
2004 Illini shuttle "Beginning October 6" & first functional illinishuttle.com (09/24/2004): Illini Shuttle - O'Hare & Midway Schedules
2004 Illini shuttle "Now Up and Running" (10/16/2004): Illini Shuttle - O'Hare & Midway Schedules
2007 UIowa gets "Introductory" fares extended (2/9/2007): uiowaspring07.pdf
2010 First Free Wi-Fi claim (on 13 buses) (03/05/2010): Suburban Express (index UIUC)
2010 at least 13 buses in company-owned fleetbased on Wi-Fi claim (above)
2010 Service to Perdue "resumes" in August (08/20/2010) : Suburban Express (index UIUC)
2010 Wi-Fi fleet claimed +2 to 15 buses (09/19/2010): Suburban Express (index UIUC)
2010 at least 15 buses in company-owned fleetbased on Wi-Fi claim (above)
2011 Claims 55,000 passengers per year (7/16/2011): Some Trivia...
2012 "Now Serving Joliet" on Thursdays, Fridays & Sundays (02/09/2012): Suburban Express (index UIUC)

Can anyone who knows how to use Archive.org see if there's an "introductory" for other current schools? KevinCuddeback (talk) 16:06, 11 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

BTW, the article is about the company, Suburban Express, and thus Suburban Express is the subject of the article. I believe you meant the founder or company head dude by whatever title he might go by. If you agree, you might want to modify the title of this particular Talk page section. Cheers. N2e (talk) 22:03, 22 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I'd say this talk section is correctly titled: It covers materials in which the subject of this article, Suburban Express, talks about itself as author/publisher of its own website (www.suburbanexpress.com).KevinCuddeback (talk) 03:43, 23 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

107.77.209.56 (talk) 03:39, 19 August 2023 (UTC) IP added a paragraph, deleted by another IP, stating that content required to be removed from website by consent decree remains on website. Does anyone have any thoughts on this? The content is apparently personal information, but deleting IP states that it's not PII under IL law. I do not know how to approach this situation.[reply]

107.77.209.56 (talk) 04:04, 19 August 2023 (UTC) added back part of edit made by 172.88.75.211. i think it's ok.[reply]

172.58.164.212 (talk) 02:50, 30 March 2024 (UTC) I saw this note "This section may be too long and excessively detailed. Please consider summarizing the material. (September 2019)" and decided to spend my evening reading sources and trying to make this article more concise and readable. As I put a considerable amount of work in, I ask that you talk with me here before making any substantial changes. Thanks and have a happy Easter.[reply]

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-== Links related to 2013 Controversy ==
+== Conventional Media Links Not Related to WP:EVENT Above ==
-<!-- [[User:DoNotArchiveUntil]] 14:21, 7 August 2021 (UTC) -->
+<!-- [[User:DoNotArchiveUntil]] 15:05, 7 April 2029 (UTC) -->
-Here is a list of articles about Suburban Express and it's controversies. I'm creating a section for it so others can contribute - please don't delete from it, though. It was started by [[User:AlmostGrad|AlmostGrad]] and moved to it's own section by [[User:NegatedVoid|NegatedVoid]].
-: Most of these links are between April 2013 and August 2013 and cover one [[WP:Event]] or a cluster of events that got linked to each other. Then there's a group of "year in review" cluster around New Year's 2014 which recap the April-to-August 2013 events. The news gap is about a year (August 2013 to August 2014). I have moved the clusters from August 2014 and later to a new section[[User:KevinCuddeback|KevinCuddeback]] ([[User talk:KevinCuddeback|talk]]) 21:30, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
-=== International ===
-# Pieuvre.ca (05/02/2013): [http://www.pieuvre.ca/2013/05/02/technologie-reddit-suburban-express/ Le pouvoir des masses numériques, pour le meilleur et pour le pire] ([http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=fr&tl=en&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http://www.pieuvre.ca/2013/05/02/technologie-reddit-suburban-express/&act=url Translation])
-# China News (10/14/2013): [http://www.chinanews.com/lxsh/2013/10-14/5377809.shtml 赴美留学：行前需多了解当地生活细节避免被骗] ([http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=zh-CN&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.chinanews.com%2Flxsh%2F2013%2F10-14%2F5377809.shtml&act=url Translation])
-#: Syndicated to:  [http://goabroad.sohu.com/20131015/n388203991.shtml Sohu.com] and [http://news.sina.com.tw/article/20131014/10855813.html Sina.com]
-=== National ===
-# Ars Technica (04/26/2013):  [http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/04/express-to-internet-hate-bus-company-threatens-redditor-with-lawsuit/ Express to Internet Hate: Bus company threatens redditor with lawsuit]
-# BoingBoing (04/27/2013): [http://boingboing.net/2013/04/27/suburban-express-bus-line-send.html Suburban Express bus-line sends bullying, cowardly legal threat to Reddit, discovers Streisand Effect]
-# Popehat (04/28/2013): [http://www.popehat.com/2013/04/28/suburban-express-took-the-first-bus-to-the-streisand-effect-have-they-disembarked-in-time/ Suburban Express Took The First Bus To The Streisand Effect. Have They Disembarked In Time?]
-# Techdirt (04/29/2013): [http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20130429/07194422871/bus-company-threatens-redditor-with-lawsuit-meets-ken-white-runs-away.shtml Bus Company Threatens Redditor With Lawsuit, Meets Ken White, Runs Away]
-# The Daily Dot (04/29/2013): [http://www.dailydot.com/business/suburban-express-uiuc-reddit-moderator-bus-lawsuit/ Bus Company Threatens to Sue Redditor Over Bad Press]
-# Chicago Tribune (05/01/2013): [http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/ct-met-suburban-express-20130501,0,7531046.story Bus company's lawsuits anger students, parents]
-# Ars Technica (05/02/2013):  [http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/05/non-stop-to-schadenfreude-suburban-express-u-turn-on-reddit-lawsuit/ Nonstop to schadenfreude: Suburban Express’ u-turn on reddit lawsuit]
-# American Bar Association Journal (05/03/2013): [http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/Cheap_bus_ticket_included_a_costly_trip_to_small-claims_court_for_over_100_/ Cheap bus ticket included a trip to small-claims court for unwary students]
-# Slashdot (05/04/2013): [http://yro.slashdot.org/story/13/05/04/2242230/redditors-and-popehat-versus-a-bus-company Redditors (and Popehat) Versus a Bus Company]
-# Ars Technica (05/13/2013): [http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/05/troll-road-bus-company-posts-dirt-on-complaining-passenger/ Troll road: Bus company posts “dirt” on complaining passenger]
-# Techdirt (05/17/2013): [http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20130515/05513523093/suburban-express-goes-double-nothing-their-aggressive-behavior.shtml Suburban Express Goes Double Or Nothing On Their Aggressive Behavior]
-# Ars Technica (06/19/2013): [http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/06/bus-co-that-threatened-redditor-with-lawsuit-tries-to-reopen-suits/ Bus company that threatened redditor with lawsuit tries to reopen suits]
-# Techdirt (06/24/2013): [http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20130621/12115023559/suburban-express-wants-round-3-re-files-against-customers.shtml Suburban Express Wants Round 3: Re-Files Against Customers]
-# Ars Technica (06/25/2013): [http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/06/bus-co-owner-threatens-redditor-yet-again-records-users-ip-addresses/ Bus co. owner threatens redditor yet again, records users’ IP addresses]
-# Uproxx (06/26/2013): [http://www.uproxx.com/technology/2013/06/meet-suburban-express-the-bus-line-fighting-a-war-with-reddit/ Meet Suburban Express, The Bus Line Fighting A War With Reddit Over Negative Comments]
-# Popehat (07/29/2013): [http://www.popehat.com/2013/07/29/the-popehat-signal-suburban-express-doubles-down-on-attacks-on-critics/ The Popehat Signal: Suburban Express Doubles Down On Attacks On Critics]
-# Techdirt (07/31/2013): [http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20130729/14121623992/popehat-signal-goes-out-against-suburban-express.shtml The Popehat Signal Goes Out Against Suburban Express]
-# Courthouse News Service (01/10/2014): [http://www.courthousenews.com/2014/01/10/64414.htm Just a Darn Minute, AT&T]
-=== Regional ===
-# The Daily Illini (04/19/2013): [http://www.dailyillini.com/news/campus/article_026b7ab0-a89e-11e2-a046-001a4bcf6878.html Suburban Express lawsuits lead to controversy on social media]
-# The Daily Illini (Editorial) (04/24/2013): [http://www.dailyillini.com/opinion/editorials/article_c94814e0-ac81-11e2-a1d9-0019bb30f31a.html Suburban Express mishandles student allegations]
-# Paxton Record (04/25/2013): [http://www.paxtonrecord.net/news/courts-police-and-fire/2013-04-25/bus-company-suing-ui-students-violating-terms-and-conditions. Bus company suing UI students for violating 'terms and conditions']
-# The Daily Illini (04/25/2013): [http://www.dailyillini.com/news/campus/article_a233e924-ad5d-11e2-9777-0019bb30f31a.html Public addresses Illinois Student Senate regarding influx of student-aimed Suburban Express lawsuits]
-# The Daily Illini (Opinion Column) (04/25/2013): [http://www.dailyillini.com/opinion/columns/article_3fd6858a-ad57-11e2-9ccd-0019bb30f31a.html Suburban Express causes its own problems]
-# The Daily Illini (Letter to the Editor) (04/25/2013): [http://www.dailyillini.com/opinion/letters_to_editor/article_63aacb66-ad47-11e2-80a6-001a4bcf6878.html UI should defend international students, disallow Suburban Express services]
-# The News Gazette (04/26/2013): [http://www.news-gazette.com/news/local/2013-04-26/bus-firms-lawsuits-criticized.html Bus firm's lawsuits criticized]
-# The Daily Illini (04/26/2013): [http://www.dailyillini.com/news/local/article_43a45b74-ae1a-11e2-9a0d-0019bb30f31a.html Suburban Express lawsuits reach 125 this year; conversation continues on Reddit]
-# Paxton Record (04/29/2013): [http://www.paxtonrecord.net/news/courts-police-and-fire/2013-04-29/after-backlash-bus-firm-pledges-dismiss-all-suits.html After backlash, bus firm pledges to dismiss all suits]
-# The News Gazette (04/30/2013): [http://www.news-gazette.com/news/local/2013-04-30/bus-company-promises-drop-ford-lawsuits.html Bus company promises to drop Ford lawsuits]
-# WILL News (04/30/2013): [http://will.illinois.edu/news/story/bus-company-serving-college-students-drops-lawsuits-against-riders Bus Company Serving College Students Drops Lawsuits Against Riders]
-# The News Gazette (05/01/2013): [http://www.news-gazette.com/news/local/2013-05-01/bus-lawsuits-dismissed-ford-county.html Bus lawsuits dismissed in Ford County]
-# Paxton Record (05/01/2013): [http://www.paxtonrecord.net/news/courts-police-and-fire/2013-05-01/suburban-express-lawsuits-dropped.html Suburban Express lawsuits dropped]
-# The Daily Illini (05/01/2013): [http://www.dailyillini.com/news/campus/article_4cad5258-b1f2-11e2-bae4-0019bb30f31a.html Suburban Express drops lawsuits and updates terms and conditions]
-# WCIA 3 News (05/01/2013): [http://illinoishomepage.net/fulltext?nxd_id=487302&nxd_238653_start=10 Bus company drops civil suits against students]
-# The Daily Illini (05/02/2013): [http://www.dailyillini.com/news/campus/article_f49d4036-b2c4-11e2-bc42-0019bb30f31a.html UIUC Subreddit hits front page, Streisand effect leads to increased attention for Suburban Express lawsuits]
-# Kankakee Daily Journal (05/02/2013): [http://daily-journal.com/archives/dj/display.php?id=506961 Bus company drops lawsuits in Ford County against college student riders]
-# The Daily Illini (Editorial) (05/02/2013): [http://www.dailyillini.com/opinion/editorials/article_078b1178-b2ca-11e2-840a-0019bb30f31a.html University administrators absent in Suburban Express incidences]
-# Paxton Record (06/25/2013): [http://www.paxtonrecord.net/news/courts-police-and-fire/2013-06-25/suburban-express-wants-refile-some-its-cases.html Suburban Express wants to refile some of its cases]
-# The News Gazette (06/26/2013): [http://www.news-gazette.com/news/local/2013-06-26/bus-company-wants-reinstate-some-lawsuits.html Bus company wants to reinstate some lawsuits]
-# The Daily Illini (06/27/2013): [http://www.dailyillini.com/news/campus/article_746c7f08-df2e-11e2-9a2b-0019bb30f31a.html Suburban Express lawsuits not gone for good]
-# WCIA 3 News (06/27/2013): [http://illinoishomepage.net/fulltext?nxd_id=505712 Bus co. owner may refile lawsuits]
-# Paxton Record (07/30/2013): [http://www.paxtonrecord.net/news/courts-police-and-fire/2013-07-30/judge-grants-motion-allow-suburban-express-cases-be-refiled.h Judge grants motion to allow Suburban Express cases to be refiled]
-# News Gazette (07/30/2013): [http://www.news-gazette.com/news/local/2013-07-30/judge-allows-bus-company-refile-some-claims-against-passengers.html Judge allows bus company to refile some claims against passengers]
-# WCIA 3 News (07/30/2013): [http://www.illinoishomepage.net/story/bus-owner-in-court/d/story/bVWPUKSEG06ENFikvbIAsg Bus owner in court]
-# The Daily Illini (08/21/2013): [http://www.dailyillini.com/opinion/editorials/article_ca7f86d2-0a0e-11e3-b897-0019bb30f31a.html Assessing this year's most important events]
-# Paxton Record (12/31/2013): [http://www.paxtonrecord.net/news/politics-and-government/2013-12-31/memorable-quotes-2013.html Memorable quotes from 2013 ...]
-# Paxton Record (12/31/2013): [http://www.paxtonrecord.net/news/business/miscellaneous/2013-12-31/most-viewed-posts-paxton-records-facebook-page-2013.html Most-viewed posts on Paxton Record's Facebook page in 2013]
-# Paxton Record (01/01/2014): [http://www.paxtonrecord.net/news/courts-police-and-fire/2014-01-01/paxton-records-top-10-stories-2013.html The Paxton Record's Top 10 stories of 2013]
-== Links related to 2014 & 2015 Controversies ==
-<!-- [[User:DoNotArchiveUntil]] 14:21, 7 August 2023 (UTC) -->
-Created this to hold links identified July 2014 and later by [[User:AlmostGrad|AlmostGrad]] and grouped by [[User:NegatedVoid|NegatedVoid]] which address a different cluster of events from (though thematically similar to) the April-August 2013 list, and to allow it to age-before-archiving on a different schedule.[[User:KevinCuddeback|KevinCuddeback]] ([[User talk:KevinCuddeback|talk]]) 21:30, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
-=== National ===
-# Ars Technica (07/10/2014): [http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/07/bus-stopped-suburban-express-owner-makes-bail-after-e-harassment-arrest/ Update: Bus co. owner who threatened redditor with lawsuit arrested for cyberstalking]
-# Techdirt (07/14/2014): [https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20140711/08401727851/dennis-toeppen-arrested-harassing-online-critics-being-creepy-as-hell.shtml Dennis Toeppen Arrested For Harassing Online Critics And Being Creepy As Hell]
-# Chicago Tribune (08/06/2014): [http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-bus-owner-harassment-charges-met-20140806-story.html Bus firm owner charged with harassing customers]
-# RedEye (08/06/2014): [http://www.redeyechicago.com/news/local/ct-bus-owner-harassment-charges-met-20140806,0,1368332.story Bus firm owner charged with harassing customers]
-# Techdirt (09/05/2014): [https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20140905/06420628424/suburban-express-wants-round-4-re-files-lawsuits-it-had-previously-dropped.shtml Suburban Express Wants Round 4: Re-Files Lawsuits It Had Previously Dropped]
-# Ars Technica (02/06/2015): [http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015/02/all-aboard-the-dox-bus-suburban-express-owner-keeps-going-after-customers/ All aboard the dox bus! Suburban Express owner keeps going after customers]
-# Techdirt (03/04/2015): [https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20150226/05201730144/suburban-express-changes-terms-service-to-screw-sued-college-students-out-university-provided-legal-aid.shtml Suburban Express Changes Terms Of Service To Screw Sued College Students Out Of University-Provided Legal Aid]
-=== Regional ===
-#News Gazette (07/16/2014): [http://www.news-gazette.com/news/local/2014-07-16/bus-company-owner-charged-online-harassment.html Bus company owner charged with online harassment]
-# Paxton Record (07/16/2014): [http://www.paxtonrecord.net/news/courts-police-and-fire/2014-07-16/bus-company-owner-charged-online-harassment.html Bus company owner charged with online harassment]
-# The Daily Illini (08/22/2014): [http://www.dailyillini.com/news/article_0867ed92-280c-11e4-bf33-0017a43b2370.html Suburban Express lawsuits reappear in Cook County]
-# WILL (AM) Radio (09/03/2014): [http://will.illinois.edu/news/story/a-look-at-legal-issues-surrounding-terms-of-service-online-reviews-and-onli A Look At Legal Issues Surrounding Terms Of Service, Online Reviews, and Online Harassment]
-# The Daily Illini (09/11/2014): [http://www.dailyillini.com/news/article_4fefcf02-3943-11e4-81f6-001a4bcf6878.html Suburban Express won’t take Highland Park passengers]
-# The Daily Illini (12/16/2014): [http://www.dailyillini.com/news/article_42c565c4-83f5-11e4-b86d-7f72a9a00fbe.html Suburban Express re-files lawsuits, bans Highland Park passengers]
-# Smile Politely (02/04/2015): [http://smilepolitely.com/splog/suburban_express_posts_racist_story_about_u_of_i_grad_student/ Suburban Express posts racist story about U of I grad student]
-# WCIA 3 News (02/05/2015): [http://www.illinoishomepage.net/story/d/story/area-business-responds-to-real-review/18584/kGwabtzYREi1Oth8JnE4ew Area business responds to "real" review]
-# Smile Politely (02/22/2015): [http://smilepolitely.com/splog/suburban_express_is_at_it_again_this_time_with_black_sheep_discount/ Suburban Express is at it again, this time with "Black Sheep Discount"]
-# WCIA 3 News (02/23/2015): [http://www.illinoishomepage.net/story/d/story/business-feuds-with-campus-paper/52270/mpqmOoHfy0S6XPqRzWcWhQ Business feuds with campus paper]
-# The Daily Illini (02/25/2015): [http://www.dailyillini.com/news/article_860cfe72-bc90-11e4-9665-33d98d3326ac.html Student Legal Services helps students fight Suburban Express lawsuits]
-# The Daily Illini (Editorial) (02/26/2015): [http://www.dailyillini.com/opinion/editorials/article_1c6525ae-bd1b-11e4-8dc0-ebd1778f9292.html Inhibiting ability to "Express" poses problems]
-== Conventional Media Links Not Related to WP:EVENT Above ==
-<!-- [[User:DoNotArchiveUntil]] 15:05, 7 April 2024 (UTC) -->
 === Daily Herald===
@@ Line 135: / Line 48: @@
 == Subject's Self-Published Sources (from Archive.org) ==
-<!-- [[User:DoNotArchiveUntil]] 15:05, 7 April 2024 (UTC) -->
+<!-- [[User:DoNotArchiveUntil]] 15:05, 7 April 2029 (UTC) -->
 Because the [[Wikipedia:Verifiability#Self-published_or_questionable_sources_as_sources_on_themselves|subject itself can be the source]], some historical ''Suburban Express'' web pages from the Internet Archives, [[Wikipedia:Link_rot#Internet_archives|as suggested]], should be referenced because they make [[Wikipedia:Verifiability#Exceptional_claims_require_exceptional_sources|un-exceptional claims]] about the "starts" of things along the company growth-path (usually +/- weeks, and near-always within 1 semester). It would be entirely "in character" for a bus company to accurately describe its services as-then-offered, and out of character to describe a phantom service.
 :::I agree with the basic premise above; such sources can be used to support basic claims and data about the company and its products.  I work a good bit on [[WikiProjectSpaceflight|spaceflight-related]] articles and such sources are typically what we use to source the basic specs of launch vehicles and spacecraft.  I'm agnostic on the specifics of the following list.  Cheers.  [[User:N2e|N2e]] ([[User talk:N2e|talk]]) 15:23, 22 April 2014 (UTC)
@@ Line 162: / Line 76: @@
 :::I'd say this talk section is correctly titled: It covers materials in which the subject of this article, ''Suburban Express'', talks about itself as author/publisher of its own website (www.suburbanexpress.com).[[User:KevinCuddeback|KevinCuddeback]] ([[User talk:KevinCuddeback|talk]]) 03:43, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
+[[Special:Contributions/107.77.209.56|107.77.209.56]] ([[User talk:107.77.209.56|talk]]) 03:39, 19 August 2023 (UTC) IP added a paragraph, deleted by another IP, stating that content required to be removed from website by consent decree remains on website. Does anyone have any thoughts on this? The content is apparently personal information, but deleting IP states that it's not PII under IL law. I do not know how to approach this situation.
-== Why Monopoly properly describes Greyhound's pre-Suburban Express market position ==
-<!-- [[User:DoNotArchiveUntil]] 14:21, 7 August 2021 (UTC) -->
-There is some dispute about whether it is appropriate to refer to Greyhound's service in the 1980's as a "monopoly" (and Suburban Express as a monopoly-breaker). It's generally accepted that for a company to have a monopoly, there must be high barriers to entry for new firms and the product or service being supplied must have no close substitutes. There were not any unusual barriers to entry in the bus market and I would maintain that there were close substitutes (although this second point may be disputed).
-Examples of substitute goods could include train travel or possibly automobiles/carpooling. It could be argued how "close" other forms of transportation really are to bus service.
-In the article's current form, it says, "Dennis Toeppen, then a 19-year-old student at University of Illinois at Urbana–Champaign (UIUC), and later Suburban Express' founder, chartered 6 buses, sold tickets through a local travel agent, spent $600 on advertising, and undercut Greyhound's fares by $4 to $8." This makes it pretty clear that there could not have been significant barriers to entry in the market.  <small><span class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:CS1494|CS1494]] ([[User talk:CS1494|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/CS1494|contribs]]) 15:32, 27 July 2014 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
-: See below. There ''were'' high barriers to entry for new bus companies (whole, sourced, list below) and no source says there were any close substitutes for direct trips from UIUC to stations in/near Chicago. [[User:KevinCuddeback|KevinCuddeback]] ([[User talk:KevinCuddeback|talk]]) 13:08, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
-Monopolies are rare today, and many editors repeatedly attempt to downplay or remove the sourced fact that '''Greyhound operated a bus monopoly between UIUC and Chicago before Suburban Express''' (and its predecessor firms) entered the market. But the reality is that Monopolies *did* exist, and were particularly entrenched in transportation prior to the deregulation acts of the late 1970s and early 1980s (when Suburban Express was founded).
-* '''From 1935 onward''', thanks to the [[Motor Carrier Act of 1935]] the [[Interstate Commerce Commission]] had jurisdiction over interstate bus lines, and for a carrier to enter the market, they needed a ''Certificate of Public Convenience and Necessity'' (permission to enter a market), something that the ICC was reluctant to grant in markets (like UIUC) that were thought too small to support competition. (and if Greyhound wanted to keep out a competitor, they could extend a bus across state lines to ensure ICC protection).  Buses were technically deregulated in 1980 with the [[Motor Carrier Act of 1980]] but the reality is that competitors were slow to arise and poorly financed (buses were assumed to be a losing business). The reality was, that until Suburban Express' predecessors started, Greyhound used its legacy of ''de jure'' monopoly to enforece a ''de facto'' monopoly.
-*  '''The Illinois Commerce Commission similarly required bus carriers to obtain Certificate of Public Convenience and Necessity''' before they would be permitted to compete with other, incumbent Carriers.  In fact, as the sources in the article say, this was Greyhound's primary basis for seeking to legally defend its Illinois-granted monopoly: Greyhound maintained that Suburban Express needed to obtain permission from Illinois before it could break Greyhound's monopoly. You see in the Fare Wars source that "THE FIRST [Illinois action brought by Greyhound], in the spring of 1984, found the service was improperly operating as a regular operation without [Illinois]CC approval and regulation. Toeppen changed his service, officially making it a private charter service limited to university students and faculty so it would not be under the jurisdiction of the ICC."
-*  '''Greyhound itself enforced its monopoly by its control over most of the USA's bus terminals and ticketing'''.  As the owner of "the" bus terminal in most towns, it used its power as landlord to control other bus companies' access to the market.  In the period immediately after federal deregulation, this was one way Greyhound maintained its monopolies: by refusing terminal space to competitors (see [[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greyhound_Lines#Early_1990s:_Bankruptcy_and_antitrust_cases]]), after terminating the terminal agreements, Greyhound still demanded that only it could be the seller of tickets within 25 miles of its terminals.
-*  '''UIUC itself''', because it got a generous commission on Greyhound tickets, refused to permit Suburban Express to sell tickets on campus.  The inflated prices were used to subsidize other campus activities. See in the Fare Wars source where it says "UNIVERSITY OFFICIALS said they did not want to sell both types of tickets because they feared Greyhound would not approve and would dump the university as a ticket agent, meaning less ticket revenue for the university.
-'We need to make a certain amount from ticket sales to contribute to (student programming)," said Jeff Sheets, manager of the travel center. "We were concerned about(Greyhound's) reaction.'"
-* '''Greyhound further engaged in predatory pricing''', as monopolist do when defending their dominant market position, by pricing below costs on a specific route to punish/discourage a competitor. Objectively, from an economic standpoint, this is what happened.  Sources tell us though, rather than admit this legally, Greyhound agreed to raise its prices rather than have the Illinois Commerce Commission suit by Suburban Express come to an official finding.
-These 4 forces (Federal history/inertia, Illinois regulation, Greyhound control terminals, ticketing (and below cost pricing), and UIUC's enforcement of a ticket-sales exclusivity) all worked together to ensure that Greyhound had a monopoly in the fullest sense of that word. [[User:KevinCuddeback|KevinCuddeback]] ([[User talk:KevinCuddeback|talk]]) 21:15, 8 May 2015 (UTC) (restored from archive [[User:KevinCuddeback|KevinCuddeback]] ([[User talk:KevinCuddeback|talk]]) 12:59, 11 January 2016 (UTC))
-:Are there any [[WP:RS|reliable independent references]] that make the "monopoly" claim? [[User:Seraphimblade|Seraphimblade]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Seraphimblade|Talk to me]]</sup></small> 15:28, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
-::The [http://toeppen.com/daily-herald-fare-wars-toeppen.pdf| Daily Herald article known as source "farewars"] (by this [https://www.linkedin.com/in/dan-rozek-3b7a953 Dan Rozek]?) uses the word "Monopoly" and describes all of the anti-competitive practices of UIUC (ticket-sales exclusivity/disallowing Suburban Express marketing) and Greyhound (bringing ''two'' Illinois Commerce Commission cases to enforce its Illinois-granted exclusive intrastate license (first time Greyhound won that monopoly back, second time Suburban Express won). Read the article in its entirely. It describes in great detail the barriers to entry (including that after losing regulatorily, Greyhound then engaged in predatory pricing ('zactly what it looks like, though they never admitted it), another monopolization tactic). Greyhound pretty much maps one-to-one to the list in [[Monopoly#Sources_of_monopoly_power]] [[User:KevinCuddeback|KevinCuddeback]] Short of finding it in a peer-reviewed economics journal, I don't see how there could be a finer neutral, detailed collection using the word monopoly and backing it up with facts and quotes from all relevant participants at the time, ([[User talk:KevinCuddeback|talk]]) 15:53, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
-:::Thanks, that helps to clarify things a good deal. (It doesn't matter if you or I think the conditions for a monopoly are met, only if references do.) I'm not sure one reference is enough to present that as an unattributed statement of fact in our own voice, but I think it does merit mention in the article that they were referred to as such. [[User:Seraphimblade|Seraphimblade]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Seraphimblade|Talk to me]]</sup></small> 17:34, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
-== Previous Discussion from Archive 2 ==
-<!-- [[User:DoNotArchiveUntil]] 14:21, 7 August 2021 (UTC) -->
-This seems relevant to one of the edits I made earlier this evening:
-:: Executive's bio items generally not included in corporate articles; Arrests not encyclopedic per [[WP:BLPCRIME]]
-:: Under [[WP:BLPCRIME]] Wikipedia's [[Biographies_of_living_persons| Biography of Living Persons policy]] having to do with [[Biographies_of_living_persons#People_accused_of_crime | people arrested for crimes]], arrests are generally not included (due to the presumption of innocence), neither in the person's article nor even less so in an article about a company/workplace. This is particularly true for people such as Suburban Express' founder, [[Dennis Toeppen]], who have articles in Wikipedia but remain [[Biographies_of_living_persons#Relatively_unknown|relatively unknown people]].  Even if the arrest were included in a person's article, general practice is that it is not relevant to corporate articles (such as [Suburban Express], unless it occurred in the workplace, directly stemmed from corporate actions/policy, or affected the operations of the company. Given this (and no web sources evidencing the required conviction as of today) it is otherwise not worth rehashing/elaborating/revisiting the [[Talk:Suburban_Express/Archive_2#Owner.27s_July_2014_Misdemeanor_Arrest|archived talk discussing the 2014 arrest]] which concluded it was un-encyclopedic. [[User:KevinCuddeback|KevinCuddeback]] ([[User talk:KevinCuddeback|talk]]) 16:57, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
-[[Special:Contributions/98.228.62.102|98.228.62.102]] ([[User talk:98.228.62.102|talk]]) 02:41, 29 January 2019 (UTC)
-:I edited your comment to make it clear what text was yours and which was [[User:KevinCuddeback]]'s. I also reverted your series of edits. It's a fair discussion to have- the founder and the company are very tightly linked, they get conflated in the articles, so it isn't 100% obvious what belongs and doesn't.
-:The same goes for references to Allerton. The links between Suburban, Allerton, and Toeppen are thick, [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Suburban_Express&diff=880714643&oldid=880714267 in this example you removed] it is silly to claim it doesn't related to Suburban when the related lawsuits cover all three parties.
-:[https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Suburban_Express&diff=880957264&oldid=880954902 I did remove the one paragraph that is about Toeppen being arrested (but not found guilty)]; there are some tidbits on the m.o. of filing lawsuits against customers, but that's fine.
-:It's hard to look at your edits and assume good faith; [[WP:SPA|your IP has only been used to make changes in the bias of Toppen-related articles]], this article has a long history of these types of edits. Rather than simply quoting, please discuss here and wait to get input from others. That's why I tagged KevinCuddeback, even if we differ on how tightly woven the articles should be. [[User:Tedder|tedder]] ([[User talk:Tedder|talk]]) 15:23, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
-::I made some changes (and corrected a change I made). I think we all understand that reliable sources, doing journalism, have different ways of detailing (or oversimplifying) the Suburban Express - Owner/Exec - Allerton "thing"  Sometimes they say "Toeppen" but sometimes "Clients" or "Defendants"  Here, we're writing and reviewing an article about a bus company.  If an executive makes a company do a notable action, this is the article where we report that the company did a notable action. It is what sets being encyclopedic apart from other kinds of writing. [[User:KevinCuddeback|KevinCuddeback]] ([[User talk:KevinCuddeback|talk]]) 16:42, 1 February 2019 (UTC)
-::Thanks. We do differ, and I think there is a reasonable middle ground. [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Suburban_Express&diff=881289444&oldid=881286212 I appreciate the rewriting you did on the Allerton "thing"], it's certainly more clear. [[User:Tedder|tedder]] ([[User talk:Tedder|talk]]) 00:25, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
-: In Illinois, corporations must be represented by a licensed attorney when plaintiff in a lawsuit. Therefore, only Suburban Express' attorney could withdraw any suits filed in the name Suburban Express. Toeppen could not, and Suburban Express could not.[[Special:Contributions/98.228.62.102|98.228.62.102]] ([[User talk:98.228.62.102|talk]]) 06:30, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
-::How does that matter in terms of the article? [[User:Tedder|tedder]] ([[User talk:Tedder|talk]]) 00:03, 3 February 2019 (UTC)
-:::See above. [[Special:Contributions/98.228.62.102|98.228.62.102]] ([[User talk:98.228.62.102|talk]]) 23:18, 3 February 2019 (UTC)
-I reverted a pile of edits by the recent IP that haven't been discussed and don't match the discussion here. This includes [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Suburban_Express&diff=881380847&oldid=881380033 removing a big quote sourced to Suburban Express's website]. IP, *please* review [[WP:RS|why Wikipedia uses reliable sources and not Facebook posts]]. It's hard to sort through edits that improve the article (typically grammatical fixes) and ones that further some point of view. [[User:Tedder|tedder]] ([[User talk:Tedder|talk]]) 00:03, 3 February 2019 (UTC)
-: Hello there. IPs are allowed to edit, just like registered users. I've spent a great deal of time tightening up writing which, frankly, is rather sloppy and poorly-organized. Also, please note that citing primary sources, ie a lawsuit, is not really the right way to proceed, particularly since you have been injecting your interpretation of what you see in the lawsuit pdf. If you want to have a civilized discussion, I'm willing to engage you. Continuing your wholesale undo's is not a good way to communicate a desire to collaborate. I suggest you cite specific sentences and propose changes. I'm listening. [[Special:Contributions/98.228.62.102|98.228.62.102]] ([[User talk:98.228.62.102|talk]]) 23:17, 3 February 2019 (UTC)
-== CLEANUP ON AISLE 3 ==
-This notice
-This section may be too long and excessively detailed. Please consider summarizing the material while citing sources as needed. (September 2019)
-appears at the top of the last section of the Suburban Express article. I spent a great deal of time reviewing sources and cleaning it up.
+:[[Special:Contributions/107.77.209.56|107.77.209.56]] ([[User talk:107.77.209.56|talk]]) 04:04, 19 August 2023 (UTC) added back part of edit made by 172.88.75.211. i think it's ok.
-Please be advised that I am not a vandal. I have no horse in this race. The article often devolves into a mess and I have tried to keep it sane.
+[[Special:Contributions/172.58.164.212|172.58.164.212]] ([[User talk:172.58.164.212|talk]]) 02:50, 30 March 2024 (UTC) I saw this note "This section may be too long and excessively detailed. Please consider summarizing the material. (September 2019)" and decided to spend my evening reading sources and trying to make this article more concise and readable. As I put a considerable amount of work in, I ask that you talk with me here before making any substantial changes. Thanks and have a happy Easter.
-Thanks, IP

Latest revision as of 23:36, 3 April 2024

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