Talk:Johann Lamont

Pronunciation and origin of unusual Christian name

Do we know why she has such a curious forename - and is the h pronounced or silent? 86.164.25.249 (talk) 08:11, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

My understanding is that it is a reasonably common Gaelic language version of Joanna, but I only read that on a blog or somesuch (newspaper comment thread?), so not a WP:RS. Mais oui! (talk) 09:56, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

[Wikipedia page] Perhaps her parents thought she was a male Afrikaaner.14.114.205.215 (talk) 02:11, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

It is pronounced the same as "Joanne", I don't know if it's a Gaelic version. PatGallacher (talk) 02:15, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

I notice someone's added the pronunciation of her first name to the article, but think we also need to include her surname, as it's pronounced LA-mont as apposed to La-Mont. David Dimbleby made this error on last night's Question Time and she was quick to correct him. Paul MacDermott (talk) 12:07, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

ok, I had a go at adding IPA for pronunciation and think I've got it right. You may want to double check it though. The second syllable of Lamont is the same as the last in government, rather than in Vermont, if you catch my drift. Hope that helps and doesn't cause further confusion. :) Paul MacDermott (talk) 18:52, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Inappropriate temple

Template:BLP sources is only applied where we have serious, contentious, ongoing disputes regarding bios of living people - no such dispute features either at Talk or in Edit summaries for this article. Further, the information regarding her being born in Anderston, and the primary school she attended, were on her own johann4leader website, which is now offline (johann4leader.org/bio/). However, this info is hardly "contentious"! Is anyone seriously contending that she wasn't born in Anderston, or did not attend that school? No. Thought not. --Mais oui! (talk) 11:05, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

If that was where the info was from in should have been cited there when inserted and any such cites could easily be got through web archive or similar. What is the source for the unsuccessful rector campaign?RafikiSykes (talk) 11:21, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

No, it is not necessary to cite every single item in an article. If it were a criterion, our articles would become an unreadable mess. For example, take a look at some of the content in Category:Featured articles. You will note that these articles, which have been written and edited by some of our most experienced and skilled editors, and must strictly follow policy and guidelines, do not routinely reference uncontentious, elementary points of fact. Often quite large passages are uncited, cos no editor or reader in their right mind would ever contest every last dotted i.

As far as the Rectorship bit, you will have to ask Pat Gallagher. I am a wee bit suspicious that he only knows this because he knew her personally while at university. In which case it is WP:OR and ought to be removed.

On a broader point, I urge you to reconsider the way you slap often 2 or 3 huge templates across the top of articles (often stub articles, which by their very nature have already been identified as needing work) in complete disproportion to any supposed "problem" at the article. I know from experience that this "template cruft" annoys the hell out of a lot of editors. You are not actually helping matters by continuing on your templating campaign. --Mais oui! (talk) 14:02, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

Religion field removed (again)

On 21 December 2011 I removed the "Religion" field from the Infobox with the Edit summary: "rm | religion = Roman Catholic per WP:BLP - I have tried, and failed, to find a WP:RS for this; if one can be found, please re-add". A day later a single-edit ip address re-added it (unnoticed by me or seemingly anyone else, at the time). Now duly removed again, and it will stay removed until and unless somebody proves it a) to be true, and b) to be notable, per official policy WP:VERIFY. --Mais oui! (talk) 05:37, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

First major interview

I've found an article from The Daily Record which is apparently her first major interview after taking office. It has some interesting stuff in it that we could use, but but this version from thefreelibrary, and its corresponding HighBeam entry has some of the text missing, so I don't know whether we can use those versions as a reference. Does anyone have the original article from the Record? Paul MacDermott (talk) 20:12, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Expanding

I would be quite interested in expanding this if anyone can help. Ideally we should aim to get all articles about major political figures up to at least GA standard, and as leader of the the largest opposition party at Holyrood she is a potential future First Minister of Scotland. Considering her position this article is fairly short, and needs to be more informative. Currently there is a lot online about her recent political career, but very little concerning her early days as an MSP and her career pre-dating her entry into politics. If anyone can help there give me a shout. Meanwhile, I'll start sifting through the sources and put something together. I'll use Ed Miliband as a template. Paul MacDermott (talk) 21:45, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Another good article setting out her views. Paul MacDermott (talk) 21:48, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

• Article listing other Committees on which Lamont has served.
• SNP misleading Scots on independence poll, says Johann Lamont], Irish Times, 22 September 2013
• New leader beat Sheridan challenge, Airdrie and Coatbridge Advertiser, 13 September 2008, part of her campaign was to advocate greater involvement for party members in the decision making process.
• profile listing her activities in the First Scottish Parliament
• Johann Lamont and the torn pay packet, Kenny Farquharson's assessment of her Conference speech from March 2012.
• Couthy colloquialisms can work, Brian Monteith echoes Farquharson's words.
• If only Holyrood appreciated woman, The Observer, 8 April 2012. Kevin McKenna calls her "an impressive leader" and comments: "She has rarely been bested at first minister's questions and has taken care in choosing the ground on which to engage her party's nemesis".

Labour leadership

Possible subjects to be covered in this section:

• Views on same-sex marriage
• Tells activists to stop saying sorry
• Conference speech
• Scottish independence referendum
• Scottish council elections
• Call for debate on tax powers
• Questions about universal benefits
• Powers group
• Tuition fees
• Falkirk by-election

Removed content

The SNP government favours forming a currency union with England in the event of a yes vote, something that Bank of England Governor Mark Carney suggested may result in Scotland having to give up some of its powers in return. Lamont raised the issue at First Minister's Questions on 30 January 2014, but attracted criticism from the SNP and pro-independence campaigners after describing Salmond's vision of an independent Scotland as "a list of wee things we could do". Salmond called her use of the phrase "an appalling error of judgement".

References

Name

Her middle name given here is probably accurate, but I cannot find a clear source for this. A recent version of this article included a Gaelic version of her name, but it seemed problematic. It was just taken from a Scottish parliament Gaelic website, it did not include her middle name. I understand "Nic" means daughter in Gaelic, it does occur in some Gaelic names, but is adding this the normal Gaelicisation of Lamont (actually of Norse origin) and there could be something contradictory about adding this and not changing the "Mac" (son of) in her middle name. PatGallacher (talk) 18:54, 16 February 2014 (UTC)

The McDougal element of her name was added anonymously on 29 September 2011. I tend to agree with you that it may be right as nobody has challenged it, but can find no reliable sources to confirm it either, so I think I'll take it out. The Gaelic translation was added on 28 November 2013 by an account that has since been blocked as it was compromised, so that throws up questions about its accuracy. We have the article gd:Seonag NicLaomainn about her and sourced from the Gaelic version of her profile on the Scottish Parliament website (which I can't imagine would be incorrect), but as I've put this forward for GAN, we're probably better off leaving it out for now. Our article on the Scottish Gaelic personal naming system says, "In the case of women, the element Nic is used (derived from nighean mhic "the daughter of the son of")", so I suspect her middle name would also be translated accordingly. Paul MacDermott (talk) 19:49, 16 February 2014 (UTC)

Useful future sources

Post-independence currency

• Lamont warns of 'Alex Tax' on Scots, Evening Express, 20 February 2014
• Lamont warns transaction costs will be eight times higher for Scots, STV News, 20 February 2014
• Currency clash at First Minister’s Questions, The Courier, 20 February 2014

The Trials of Scottish Labour

• Scotland special: What's wrong with Scottish Labour?, Total Politics Magazine, 28 November 2013

Lamont pays tributes to...

• Capital politicians pay tribute to Tony Benn, Edinburgh Evening News, 14 March 2014

• "Tony was a giant of the Labour movement. Even in his later years, he remained relevant and influential with his wit and wisdom on a range of issues, from international affairs to Scottish devolution."

Enhanced devolution

• Johann Lamont promises 'maximum devolution Scotland would want' if country says no in independence referendum, Daily Record, 16 March 2014
• Scottish Labour party plans tax increase for richest with new devolved powers, The Guardian, 16 March 2014
• Johann Lamont and Scottish Labour want to hike taxes on higher earners, Scottish Daily Express, 16 March 2014

2014 European election

• Scottish Labour launch European election campaign, BBC News, 2 May 2014
• Labour: EU elections 'not an extension of referendum campaign', STV News, 2 May 2014
• Euro poll ‘not referendum campaign extension’, The Scotsman, 2 May 2014

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Johann Lamont/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Coemgenus (talk · contribs) 15:51, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose, no copyvios, spelling and grammar): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (reference section): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free content have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

I'll start this review today or tomorrow. --Coemgenus (talk) 15:51, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

Images

• Images and their captions are fine, both creative commons shots from Flickr, tagged correctly.

Lede

• Good summary, but one minor point: "convener" could use a link (I'd never heard the word before).

•  Done

Early life and teaching career

• "The family were churchgoers..." Any particular denomination?

• She was identified here as Roman Catholic, but I can find no reliable sources to confirm whether or not this is the case.

• OK. If you ever find such a source, it would be useful, but that's good enough for now, I guess.

• "...was a representative on the Scottish Constitutional Convention..." adding the year would help place this event in the chronology better.

•  Done. The SCC was established in 1989, but I've yet to find a source that mentions her in the context of an exact year. The best seems to be one that references her in terms of the decades it was sitting.

• And is there any indication why the unusual spelling of her name? Is it a Gaelic thing, or just her parents' preference?

• I believe it's a Gaelic language version of Joanna, but sadly no reliable sources for this.

• OK. Again, if you find one, that's great, but if not, no problem.

MSP for Glasgow Pollok

• "travellers" and "gypsies" could use a link. Especially travellers -- many non-UK people will be unfamiliar with the term.

•  Done

...That's all for now, I'll review more later.

Thanks for your comments so far. I've addressed what I can for now, but will keep looking, and look forward to reading the rest of your review. Cheers Paul MacDermott (talk) 17:31, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

Leadership election

• Were there any policy differences that separated Lamont from Harris and MacIntosh?

•  Done. Paragraphs also slightly re-organised for hopefully a better flow.

First months in office

• You write of the "'huge challenge' of rebuilding public trust in Scottish Labour". Was there something in particular Labour had done to lose the public trust, or was it just a matter of having lost the last election or two?

•  Done. There was a general decline in support for Labour over the previous decade, which she seems to attribute to their failure to engage with the electorate. I've expanded this a little, but I'll see if I can find more on it, perhaps another report about the interview.

• At first glance the Guardian piece seems to be the only one about this, but I'll keep looking.

Falkirk candidate selection row and Grangemouth dispute

• "...proposed a survival plan requiring employees to accept worse employment terms..." Do you mean reduced pay? Changes in work rules? It's kind of unclear.

•  Done

• That's all I could find to ask about. This is a well-done article, which is often a difficult task with an active politician. Nice work! --Coemgenus (talk) 15:31, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

• This is the first political bio I've taken through GAN, so thanks for the support. I should have everything dealt with now, but let me know if there's anything else. Thanks once again for the review. Paul MacDermott (talk) 19:19, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

• Yes, that all looks good to me. Passed! --Coemgenus (talk) 20:23, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

• Fantastic, thanks again. Paul MacDermott (talk) 20:56, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

Almost under the radar

I've just removed something added a week ago that describes her becoming a member of the National Committee of the National Organisation of Labour Students while she was at Jordanhill College, chiefly because none of the sources actually mention this. I almost didn't spot it, but as this is a BLP anything added needs to come from reliable sources. So as soon as we find one to support the statement then we can pop the information back in. Thanks. Paul MacDermott (talk) 20:09, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

More removed content

Speaking shortly before the proposals were launched, Lamont said that Scotland should have "powers for a purpose" not "power for power’s sake", and suggested Labour's plans could "herald a new chapter in Scottish ­politics".

Report's title, Powers for a Purpose. This is an opinion piece. The phrase is reported widely, but whether it is the report's title is unclear.

She has described the process of her selection to run for the constituency of Glasgow Pollok as "a whole series of accidents". I'm sure there's a place for this somewhere, but not certain exactly where at present.

More on the independence vote

On 25 February 2014, Lamont and Sturgeon took part in a referendum debate on STV's Scotland Tonight. The discussion quickly descended into an argument in what The Herald's Rosemary Goring later described as "an unedifying spectacle where each tried to land a knock-out blow, and shouted over the other's answers". Lesley Riddoch, writing in The Sunday Post said that the debate was a "shambles" because of its confrontational nature, and because presenter Rona Dougall was not an effective chair.

In August 2014, Lamont helped to launch Women Saying No, a collection of essays by prominent Scottish women arguing for Scotland to stay in the UK.

On 4 September 2014, Lamont told a Herald debate in Glasgow that she would support independence if the UK government moved to close the Scottish Parliament.

Polls showed an increase in support for the Yes campaign as the referendum approached. On 8 September 2014, Gordon Brown set out plans for greater devolved powers for Holyrood in the event of a No vote. Lamont joined Ruth Davidson and Liberal Democrat leader Willie Rennie in giving her backing to the proposals the following day, but Salmond dismissed them as "a retreading, a repackaging, a re-timetabling" of previous promises. Prime Minister David Cameron and Opposition leader Ed Miliband cancelled their appearance at Prime Minister's Questions to travel to Scotland to campaign for a No vote. On 18 September, Scotland voted to reject independence with a majority of 2,001,926 to 1,617,989. Salmond announced his resignation as First Minister in the wake of the result. Lamont paid tribute to Salmond, describing him as "an immense figure in Scottish political history".

The referendum saw yes majorities in some Labour strongholds, particularly Greater Glasgow, prompting media speculation about Lamont's future as Labour leader. The Guardian's Libby Brooks notes that Labour's strategy during the referendum campaign received criticised for being unfocused, and that many of its supporters felt betrayed by the party's decision to campaign alongside the Conservatives. Lamont told the first post-referendum session of First Minister's Questions that she intended to stay in the position: "When the First Minister is long gone I will still be doing my job on behalf of the people of Scotland."

Resignation

Miliband's spokespeople described Lamont as “an honourable woman" who "realised it was time for a change in Scotland".

References

Sources

We can't use the Daily Record here, per WP:BLPSOURCES. --John (talk) 10:24, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

 Done This is Paul (talk) 15:52, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

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