Talk:Rigel: Difference between revisions
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== Illustration == |
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{{Re|Attic Salt}} On [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Rigel&type=revision&diff=952878051&oldid=952874130], I don't think the image is reversed, because the Arabic text reads correctly. Probably the author of the book intended it to be like that, so that the "left leg" (which is its name, according to the article) appears to the reader's left? I also found some other images (copies of the same book), which all shows Rigel to the left of the reader (see below). [[User:HaEr48|HaEr48]] ([[User talk:HaEr48|talk]]) 14:57, 24 April 2020 (UTC) |
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<gallery> |
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File:Kitāb suwar al-kawākib al-ṯābita, Orion, BnF-Arabe-5036-193v.jpg |
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Book of the Fixed Stars Auv0333 Orion.jpg |
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Orion Medina 1602 copy of Al-Sufi - Copenhagen Kong. Bibl. Ms Arabe 83.jpg |
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Al-Sufi's Orion, 1125 Baghdad copy, Doha Museum of Islamic Art Ms 2. 1998. SO.jpg |
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</gallery> |
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:Maybe I’m cross eyed this morning, but this and the other illustrations look reversed to me. [[User:Attic Salt|Attic Salt]] ([[User talk:Attic Salt|talk]]) 15:02, 24 April 2020 (UTC) |
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:: {{Re|Attic Salt}} You're right, of course. I'm saying it's probably because the medieval author ([[Abd al-Rahman al-Sufi]]) intentionally reversed it for some reason. As long as the scan is authentic, it serves a value of illustrating the etymology (the section in which I added the image) [[User:HaEr48|HaEr48]] ([[User talk:HaEr48|talk]]) 15:09, 24 April 2020 (UTC) |
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::: Ah, according to [https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/446297 The Met Museum], "the constellations each appear twice in mirror image, shown as observed from the earth and from the sky." These must be the "from the sky" version. [[User:HaEr48|HaEr48]] ([[User talk:HaEr48|talk]]) 15:14, 24 April 2020 (UTC) |
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:::::I don't think we should include figures that, only to avoid confusing the reader, require an explanation like this. [[User:Attic Salt|Attic Salt]] ([[User talk:Attic Salt|talk]]) 15:32, 24 April 2020 (UTC) |
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:Sorry, I just reinstated the image before seeing that there is a discussion. Medieval star charts were commonly drawn as if they were maps of a globe seen from the outside. This is a mirror-image of how they appear to use "on the inside" of the celestial sphere. Modern convention shows star charts as they appear to us. [[User:Lithopsian|Lithopsian]] ([[User talk:Lithopsian|talk]]) 19:30, 24 April 2020 (UTC) |
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::Okay, I accept that. I actually love the illustrations introduced by HaEr48. I suppose, then, my question is whether or not the reversed nature of these illustrations, which requires explanation, is something that should be done in this article, per se. I am happy to accept what ever people want. [[User:Attic Salt|Attic Salt]] ([[User talk:Attic Salt|talk]]) 19:48, 24 April 2020 (UTC) |
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:::Yes. Reversed images have been a thing in astronomy. A footnote explanation would be helpful. [[User:Casliber|Cas Liber]] ([[User talk:Casliber|talk]] '''·''' [[Special:Contributions/Casliber|contribs]]) 19:59, 24 April 2020 (UTC) |
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::::I don't generally like footnotes, but writing half an article in an image caption is worse. [[User:Lithopsian|Lithopsian]] ([[User talk:Lithopsian|talk]]) 20:03, 24 April 2020 (UTC) |
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== Rigel and Rigel A == |
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Lithopsian and Casliber, Hello, I would say that terms need to be defined before they are used. So, while "Rigel" might be the same, in some sense, with "Rigel A", at least when talking about the primary, we need to let the reader know (who is not likely to be an astronomer) that "Rigel A" is the primary, at least when we start using the term "Rigel A". That "Rigel" has been previously mentioned does not help the reader when, all of sudden, we start referring to "Rigel A" without defining it. Let us please fix things in the third paragraph of the lede. Thank you. [[User:Attic Salt|Attic Salt]] ([[User talk:Attic Salt|talk]]) 13:50, 5 June 2020 (UTC) |
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:We screwed up - the IAU defined "Rigel" as the main component/primary. The whole is just "the (Rigel) system". and "Rigel" is the name of the main component, sometimes called Rigel A in that context, though it remains to be seen what happens as the IAU's definitions of names take hold. [[User:Casliber|Cas Liber]] ([[User talk:Casliber|talk]] '''·''' [[Special:Contributions/Casliber|contribs]]) 14:01, 5 June 2020 (UTC) |
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::Well, we all do sometimes. The last paragraph of the lede, where "Rigel A" is mentioned, needs repair. I am not happy with the convoluted nature of the first sentence of this paragraph either. [[User:Attic Salt|Attic Salt]] ([[User talk:Attic Salt|talk]]) 14:06, 5 June 2020 (UTC) |
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:::I trimmed it as it is obvious what it is 1/400th times as bright as. [[User:Casliber|Cas Liber]] ([[User talk:Casliber|talk]] '''·''' [[Special:Contributions/Casliber|contribs]]) 14:08, 5 June 2020 (UTC) |
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::::That remains a problematic first sentence. I can't seem to figure out how to fix it, but the reference to 1/400th as bright leaves it confusing (to the non-astronomer reader) as to what comparison is being made. 1/400th as bright as Rigel, we know that, but the sentence is not clear. [[User:Attic Salt|Attic Salt]] ([[User talk:Attic Salt|talk]]) 14:13, 5 June 2020 (UTC) |
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:::::My original wording was "400 times fainter" which is more obvious but a reviewer didn't like it. I thought it was obvious that it was referring to comparison with Rigel as what else would it be? The Sun? [[User:Casliber|Cas Liber]] ([[User talk:Casliber|talk]] '''·''' [[Special:Contributions/Casliber|contribs]]) 14:16, 5 June 2020 (UTC) |
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::::::"A faint companion of Rigel, referred to as Rigel B or Rigel BC, is {{val|9.5|ul=arc seconds}} away. It has an apparent magnitude of 6.7, making it 400 times dimmer." Or "400 times less bright." (Legit usage, albeit older.) Is that better? [[User:Fowler&fowler|<span style="color:#B8860B">Fowler&fowler</span>]][[User talk:Fowler&fowler|<span style="color:#708090">«Talk»</span>]] 17:39, 5 June 2020 (UTC) Updated. [[User:Fowler&fowler|<span style="color:#B8860B">Fowler&fowler</span>]][[User talk:Fowler&fowler|<span style="color:#708090">«Talk»</span>]] 18:00, 5 June 2020 (UTC) |
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:::::::FYI, this wasn't a concern of mine. My concern was about use of "away from" and "bright as" where, the association, though obvious to us, wasn't being expressed clearly (the association was with Rigel primary). I restructured the first part of the paragraph to attend to my concerns. I'm okay with either "fainter" or "brighter" since we have the association clear. My horse is now dead, [[User:Attic Salt|Attic Salt]] ([[User talk:Attic Salt|talk]]) 18:37, 5 June 2020 (UTC) |
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:Are we all good? Just to throw a cat among the pigeons, do you think we need all the detail about component designations in the lead? As we've seen, it is difficult to express it all both clearly and concisely. It occurs to me that we could describe that there is a companion, itself triple, etc., in a lot less words and it would be easier to understand. [[User:Lithopsian|Lithopsian]] ([[User talk:Lithopsian|talk]]) 20:38, 5 June 2020 (UTC) |
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::I'm always interested in brevity. Noting that much of our concentration has been applied to the lede, if we shorten the lede text, perhaps phrases that are removed can be used to improve text in the body. [[User:Attic Salt|Attic Salt]] ([[User talk:Attic Salt|talk]]) 20:43, 5 June 2020 (UTC) |
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:::Certainly, anything that is in the lead now should be in the body in at least as much detail. After that, possibly the lead can be simplified. [[User:Lithopsian|Lithopsian]] ([[User talk:Lithopsian|talk]]) 10:38, 6 June 2020 (UTC) |
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:::I think all the designation information is explained in the body of the article already. I edited the lead and removed all the multiple star designations. That paragraph is now slightly shorter, definitely starts out simpler, but becomes a little convoluted towards the end addressing the various orbits. See if you think it is an improvement. [[User:Lithopsian|Lithopsian]] ([[User talk:Lithopsian|talk]]) 13:52, 7 June 2020 (UTC) |
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::::{{tq|Rigel /ˈraɪdʒəl/, designated β Orionis ...}} That makes me itch. My understanding is that the IAU decision is that Rigel refers to the A component, but β Orionis refer to the whole system - am I correct? If so, perhaps {{tq|Rigel /ˈraɪdʒəl/ designates the brightest and only visible component of the β Orionis system...}}? That way the second sentence isn't necessary? [[User:Tarl_N.|<b style="color:green">Tarl N.</b>]] ([[User talk:Tarl N.#top|<span style="color:teal">discuss</span>]]) 00:23, 9 June 2020 (UTC) |
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:::::I'm not sure the IAU has pronounced on Bayer designations, but certainly they tend to be used to refer to all the components of close multiple stars. For example, I don't think anyone would disagree with the designation β Orionis B, likewise β Orionis A. However, plain β Orionis is frequently used for the primary component alone, including by Simbad. I think we would be creating a precedent by insisting that it applies formally or exclusively to a system of however-many stars. The fact that you need to say "β Orionis system" suggests that it is not clear that β Orionis is the whole system. Your wording has an additional problem: "only visible" to who? I've seen Rigel B. [[User:Lithopsian|Lithopsian]] ([[User talk:Lithopsian|talk]]) 15:01, 9 June 2020 (UTC) |
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== Absolute magnitude == |
== Absolute magnitude == |
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Rigel is actually a multi star system. But the energy output of its components other than the main star are negligable. Its average apperent magnitude is m=0.13 and the distance is d=860 ly. With these figures its absolute magnitude should be M= -6.97 . But the article gives the figure as M= -7.84. Have I missed something? [[User:Nedim Ardoğa|Nedim Ardoğa]] ([[User talk:Nedim Ardoğa|talk]]) 14:42, 6 January 2021 (UTC) |
Rigel is actually a multi star system. But the energy output of its components other than the main star are negligable. Its average apperent magnitude is m=0.13 and the distance is d=860 ly. With these figures its absolute magnitude should be M= -6.97 . But the article gives the figure as M= -7.84. Have I missed something? [[User:Nedim Ardoğa|Nedim Ardoğa]] ([[User talk:Nedim Ardoğa|talk]]) 14:42, 6 January 2021 (UTC) |
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:Yes, you missed something. First, the references given for the apparent magnitude, the distance, and the absolute magnitude are not the same, so they are not necessarily consistent. In fact the reference for the absolute magnitude (which I just changed to the original paper that derived the value instead of one that was just quoting it) assumed a distance of {{val|360|u=pc}}. There is also extinction, which many people forget about. In this case it isn't obvious how many magnitudes of extinction have been included in the calculation because the paper goes directly from the distance modulus and colour excess to the absolute magnitude. However, the difference between the distance modulus and the absolute magnitude makes it fairly clear that there are about 0.16 magnitudes of extinction in there. That is consistent with the E(B-V) of 0.05. [[User:Lithopsian|Lithopsian]] ([[User talk:Lithopsian|talk]]) 17:27, 6 January 2021 (UTC) |
:Yes, you missed something. First, the references given for the apparent magnitude, the distance, and the absolute magnitude are not the same, so they are not necessarily consistent. In fact the reference for the absolute magnitude (which I just changed to the original paper that derived the value instead of one that was just quoting it) assumed a distance of {{val|360|u=pc}}. There is also extinction, which many people forget about. In this case it isn't obvious how many magnitudes of extinction have been included in the calculation because the paper goes directly from the distance modulus and colour excess to the absolute magnitude. However, the difference between the distance modulus and the absolute magnitude makes it fairly clear that there are about 0.16 magnitudes of extinction in there. That is consistent with the E(B-V) of 0.05. [[User:Lithopsian|Lithopsian]] ([[User talk:Lithopsian|talk]]) 17:27, 6 January 2021 (UTC) |
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== Should we add an image showing Rigel components? == |
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Found this image in commons: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Rigel.png This article mentions Rigel components lots of times but they are never shown visually. I think we should add this image. It was removed on the basis that it misleads making the user think the stars are actually that close to each other. That claim is valid but if the image were to scale it would be all points and features of each star as size and color would not be appreciated. I don't know. [[User:Milkayaculturekeep|Milkayaculturekeep]] ([[User talk:Milkayaculturekeep|talk]]) 02:20, 8 January 2021 (UTC) |
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:No, I don't think it adds anything of accuracy. [[User:Attic Salt|Attic Salt]] ([[User talk:Attic Salt|talk]]) 02:22, 8 January 2021 (UTC) |
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:See [[WP:ASTROART]] for the consensus policy on artistic representations in articles about astronomical objects. The key takeaway is that they must be from a reputable scientific source (although even some of those are wildly speculative and even outright misleading) and must be clearly identified as artistic impressions. This source doesn't seem to fit that criterion. See also the discussions on the talk page, there can be exceptions, for example for images clearly based on known scientific data without embellishment; much of the discussion is about how to represent exoplanets, but you get the idea. I don't think this one makes the cut. [[User:Lithopsian|Lithopsian]] ([[User talk:Lithopsian|talk]]) 18:04, 8 January 2021 (UTC) |
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== Distance == |
== Distance == |
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[[User:KevinTernes|KevinTernes]] ([[User talk:KevinTernes|talk]]) 14:15, 15 September 2021 (UTC) |
[[User:KevinTernes|KevinTernes]] ([[User talk:KevinTernes|talk]]) 14:15, 15 September 2021 (UTC) |
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:Thanks for pointing that out. I took a look and it seems that the infobox value was obtained using another method, but the value of 860 ly (863, to be exact) is the more widely accepted value. I have updated the infobox and added a reference. -'''[[User:Pax85|<span style="color: darkgreen;">Pax</span>]] [[User talk:Pax85|<span style="color: darkblue;">Verbum</span>]]''' 18:54, 15 September 2021 (UTC) |
:Thanks for pointing that out. I took a look and it seems that the infobox value was obtained using another method, but the value of 860 ly (863, to be exact) is the more widely accepted value. I have updated the infobox and added a reference. -'''[[User:Pax85|<span style="color: darkgreen;">Pax</span>]] [[User talk:Pax85|<span style="color: darkblue;">Verbum</span>]]''' 18:54, 15 September 2021 (UTC) |
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::The distance isn't consistent now to the measured parallax - which i think is a pretty accurate method for this distance. The simbad database also states that the Parallax is actually 3.78 (compare: https://simbad.u-strasbg.fr/simbad/sim-basic?Ident=Rigel). Should the parallax be changed to reflect this value? Or is the gaia data which was used for the 3.2 value more accurate? [[Special:Contributions/194.113.40.61|194.113.40.61]] ([[User talk:194.113.40.61|talk]]) 07:18, 13 February 2023 (UTC) |
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:::The parallax in the starbox is for Rigel B. It should probably have a note to that effect since it isn't obvious from the reference. Yes, it is fairly accurate, but it is also somewhat indirect and potentially doesn't reflect the actual distance of Rigel. The parallax shown at Simbad for Rigel A is the old Hipparcos parallax because Gaia can't yet provide a useful parallax for such bright stars. The Hipparcos value is still widely-used as the "reference" distance for Rigel. [[User:Lithopsian|Lithopsian]] ([[User talk:Lithopsian|talk]]) 14:51, 13 February 2023 (UTC) |
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== Pronunciation == |
== Pronunciation == |
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I would rhyme this with Nigel, but is that correct? Would it be a hard G? <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/2A01:4C8:1428:C467:F0B7:ED5:AF2E:FE81|2A01:4C8:1428:C467:F0B7:ED5:AF2E:FE81]] ([[User talk:2A01:4C8:1428:C467:F0B7:ED5:AF2E:FE81#top|talk]]) 07:12, 2 January 2022 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
I would rhyme this with Nigel, but is that correct? Would it be a hard G? <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/2A01:4C8:1428:C467:F0B7:ED5:AF2E:FE81|2A01:4C8:1428:C467:F0B7:ED5:AF2E:FE81]] ([[User talk:2A01:4C8:1428:C467:F0B7:ED5:AF2E:FE81#top|talk]]) 07:12, 2 January 2022 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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:I rhyme it with Nigel, the 'g' as in jam. Some pronunciation guides give a hard 'g', but I haven't heard this actually being used. [[User:Lithopsian|Lithopsian]] ([[User talk:Lithopsian|talk]]) 17:38, 2 January 2022 (UTC) |
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::And that corresponds to the tri-literal root RJL of the Arabic name (ar-Rijl al-Jauza, the foot of the giant). -- [[User:Elphion|Elphion]] ([[User talk:Elphion|talk]]) 18:27, 2 January 2022 (UTC) |
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== Evolutionary stage == |
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The sidebar says that Rigel is on the main sequence but the text says that it has evolved away from the main sequence. Presumably the text is correct [[Special:Contributions/155.137.25.15|155.137.25.15]] ([[User talk:155.137.25.15|talk]]) 11:20, 21 March 2022 (UTC) |
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:The sidebar says that the faint companion, or at least one component of it if it is a binary, is on the main sequence. It describes the primary star (component A) as being a [[blue supergiant]]. [[User:Lithopsian|Lithopsian]] ([[User talk:Lithopsian|talk]]) 20:36, 21 March 2022 (UTC) |
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Absolute magnitude
[edit]Rigel is actually a multi star system. But the energy output of its components other than the main star are negligable. Its average apperent magnitude is m=0.13 and the distance is d=860 ly. With these figures its absolute magnitude should be M= -6.97 . But the article gives the figure as M= -7.84. Have I missed something? Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 14:42, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
- Yes, you missed something. First, the references given for the apparent magnitude, the distance, and the absolute magnitude are not the same, so they are not necessarily consistent. In fact the reference for the absolute magnitude (which I just changed to the original paper that derived the value instead of one that was just quoting it) assumed a distance of 360 pc. There is also extinction, which many people forget about. In this case it isn't obvious how many magnitudes of extinction have been included in the calculation because the paper goes directly from the distance modulus and colour excess to the absolute magnitude. However, the difference between the distance modulus and the absolute magnitude makes it fairly clear that there are about 0.16 magnitudes of extinction in there. That is consistent with the E(B-V) of 0.05. Lithopsian (talk) 17:27, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
Distance
[edit]The first paragraph gives a distance of 860 light-years (260 pc) from Earth. Yet the sidebar lists Distance 1,010 ± 20 ly (309 ± 5 pc). KevinTernes (talk) 14:15, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
- Thanks for pointing that out. I took a look and it seems that the infobox value was obtained using another method, but the value of 860 ly (863, to be exact) is the more widely accepted value. I have updated the infobox and added a reference. -Pax Verbum 18:54, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
- The distance isn't consistent now to the measured parallax - which i think is a pretty accurate method for this distance. The simbad database also states that the Parallax is actually 3.78 (compare: https://simbad.u-strasbg.fr/simbad/sim-basic?Ident=Rigel). Should the parallax be changed to reflect this value? Or is the gaia data which was used for the 3.2 value more accurate? 194.113.40.61 (talk) 07:18, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
- The parallax in the starbox is for Rigel B. It should probably have a note to that effect since it isn't obvious from the reference. Yes, it is fairly accurate, but it is also somewhat indirect and potentially doesn't reflect the actual distance of Rigel. The parallax shown at Simbad for Rigel A is the old Hipparcos parallax because Gaia can't yet provide a useful parallax for such bright stars. The Hipparcos value is still widely-used as the "reference" distance for Rigel. Lithopsian (talk) 14:51, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
- The distance isn't consistent now to the measured parallax - which i think is a pretty accurate method for this distance. The simbad database also states that the Parallax is actually 3.78 (compare: https://simbad.u-strasbg.fr/simbad/sim-basic?Ident=Rigel). Should the parallax be changed to reflect this value? Or is the gaia data which was used for the 3.2 value more accurate? 194.113.40.61 (talk) 07:18, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
Pronunciation
[edit]I would rhyme this with Nigel, but is that correct? Would it be a hard G? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A01:4C8:1428:C467:F0B7:ED5:AF2E:FE81 (talk) 07:12, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
- I rhyme it with Nigel, the 'g' as in jam. Some pronunciation guides give a hard 'g', but I haven't heard this actually being used. Lithopsian (talk) 17:38, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
- And that corresponds to the tri-literal root RJL of the Arabic name (ar-Rijl al-Jauza, the foot of the giant). -- Elphion (talk) 18:27, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
Evolutionary stage
[edit]The sidebar says that Rigel is on the main sequence but the text says that it has evolved away from the main sequence. Presumably the text is correct 155.137.25.15 (talk) 11:20, 21 March 2022 (UTC)
- The sidebar says that the faint companion, or at least one component of it if it is a binary, is on the main sequence. It describes the primary star (component A) as being a blue supergiant. Lithopsian (talk) 20:36, 21 March 2022 (UTC)
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