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{{GA|22:30, 3 May 2017 (UTC)|oldid=778489340|topic=Philosophy and religion|page=2}}
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{{DYK talk|27 May|2017|entry= ... that '''''[[Sallekhana]]''''' is a religious practice of voluntarily fasting to death?|nompage=Template:Did you know nominations/Sallekhana}}
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{{Talk:Sallekhana/GA2}}
== Suicide ==
The practice this article refers to meets the English-language definition of suicide, so it is inaccurate to edit the article in such a way as to imply that it is not suicide. That the Jain religion has an alternative conception of suicide that does not encompass Sallekhana that bears mentioning, but it does not justify expunging references to the common English-language conception.[[User:GideonF|GideonF]] ([[User talk:GideonF|talk]]) 15:06, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
:{{yo|GideonF}} The [[Supreme Court of India]] stayed the order that wanted ''sallekhana'' to be treated as suicide. So the matter is in court, and both view points are mentioned in the article. No need to call it suicide just because you can't understand the practice. The vow can observed for no less than 12 years. So how does it suit the definition of suicide? Regards, -[[User:जैन|जैन]] ([[User talk:जैन|talk]]) 15:15, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
::This isn't India, this is the English-language Wikipedia and in the English language it is suicide. Suicide is intentionally causing ones own death. Apologies if you are a non-native English speaker. If you have no further arguments to make I will restore the removed information and treat further attempts to remove it as unconstructive.[[User:GideonF|GideonF]] ([[User talk:GideonF|talk]]) 15:18, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
:::I have removed the complete statement. Now, please first discuss.-[[User:जैन|जैन]] ([[User talk:जैन|talk]]) 15:24, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
::::I don't see what there is to discuss. The article is about a kind of ritual suicide, everyone except you agrees that it is, and you are trying to edit it in such a way as to make it unclear. Why?[[User:GideonF|GideonF]] ([[User talk:GideonF|talk]]) 15:26, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
:::::"What's there to discuss"? That also you will decide? And it was a hot issue and not only me, but most newspaper editorials supported the view that the lower court has made a mistake, which was corrected by the order of the [[Supreme Court of India]].-[[User:जैन|जैन]] ([[User talk:जैन|talk]]) 16:08, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
::::::Which other Wikipedia editors support your attempts to remove factual content from this article? The Supreme Court of India has no jurisdiction here and its opinion is irrelevant.[[User:GideonF|GideonF]] ([[User talk:GideonF|talk]]) 16:13, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
:::::::Factual? So you want to say that what you believe is right and the opinion of eminent personalities like Judges and editors of esteemed newspapers is not important? You have done very much wrong in adding a wrong wikilink in the lead. This is clear Vandalism.-[[User:जैन|जैन]] ([[User talk:जैन|talk]]) 16:21, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
::::::::I'm sorry if you are unclear about what the word "suicide" means in English. It may be that a word in your native language which genuinely does not apply to Sallekhana has been mistranslated as suicide and that is the source of your confusion, but in English intentionally causing ones own death is called suicide regardless of whether religiously motivated. Accusing people of vandalism does nothing to help your case.[[User:GideonF|GideonF]] ([[User talk:GideonF|talk]]) 16:24, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
*Linking the concept of voluntarily ending one's life with suicide is perfectly acceptable. [[User:onel5969|<b><font color="#536895">Onel</font><font color="#FFB300">5969</font></b>]] <sup>[[User talk:Onel5969|<i style="color:blue">TT me</i>]]</sup> 16:57, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
:::::::::{{yo|Onel5969}} It may seem suicide to a person who is not aware of its objective and peculiarities. But shouldn't we consider the opinion of those who have the required knowledge of the practice in question. A person shouldn't make any comment (if solution is what one desire) without referring to the available literature. Regards,-[[User:जैन|जैन]] ([[User talk:जैन|talk]]) 17:07, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
:::::::::: Even in the unlikely event you can find anyone who agrees with you, you can't mandate that only people who agree with you comment.[[User:GideonF|GideonF]] ([[User talk:GideonF|talk]]) 17:09, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
{{od|::::::::::}} Wow. Someone needs to [[WP:DROPTHESTICK|put the stick down]]. [[User:onel5969|<b><font color="#536895">Onel</font><font color="#FFB300">5969</font></b>]] <sup>[[User talk:Onel5969|<i style="color:blue">TT me</i>]]</sup> 17:18, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
: I'm no one to mandate or stop anyone from joining the discussion. I just want that the literature regarding this practice should be considered.-[[User:जैन|जैन]] ([[User talk:जैन|talk]]) 17:28, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
:I'm not a <s>Jainist</s> [Jain], but as I see it, since Jain scripture says that Sallekhana is not suicide, equating Sallekhana to suicide by the use of a Wikilink in the first sentence of the article is an insult to Jainism and is not promoting a [[WP:NPOV|neutral point of view]]. The link should be moved to later in article where the word suicide is actually used. [[User:Strawberry4Ever|Strawberry4Ever]] ([[User talk:Strawberry4Ever|talk]]) 17:59, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
::Failing to equate Sallekhana with suicide is a violation of NPOV, because suicide is what it is regardless of what Jain scripture says. Judeo-Christian scripture says bats are birds, but Wikipedia correctly describes them as mammals. Sallekhana is a way of intentionally ending ones own life, and a link to the parent article that describes the whole topic of self-inflicted death, of which Sallekhana is an example, is wholly appropriate. The fact that Jains differentiate it from other forms of suicide is noteworthy and should be mentioned. What would be useful would be to know the Prakrit word that is actually used in the Jain scriptures to refer to forms of suicide other than Sallekhana, since English does not observe the distinction.[[User:GideonF|GideonF]] ([[User talk:GideonF|talk]]) 18:18, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
:::{{ping|GideonF}} How many Christians and Jews seriously argue that bats are birds? None that I've heard of. I also don't think that refusing to eat food is necessarily suicide. What about refusing medical treatment, such as chemotherapy? Is that also suicide? A distinction could be made between actively ending one's life and passively refusing to extend it. In any case, in my opinion the Wikilink which you added is needlessly provocative and should be moved to later in the article. [[User:Strawberry4Ever|Strawberry4Ever]] ([[User talk:Strawberry4Ever|talk]]) 18:36, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
:::: You're the one who brought scriptures into it, not me. Intentionally starving oneself to death is suicide<ref>http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/suicide?s=t</ref>. Sallekhana is a sub-category of the larger category of suicide and the lead is the correct place for a link to the article about the broader category to which Sallekhana belongs. Jains do observe a distinction between Sallekhana and other forms of suicide, and it is important that it be mentioned; but we need to know the word Jains actually use to refer to other forms of suicide that is being mistranslated as "suicide".[[User:GideonF|GideonF]] ([[User talk:GideonF|talk]]) 18:56, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
{{reflist}}
::::: {{ping|GideonF}} The dictionary definition of "suicide" which you cited doesn't necessarily support the idea that Sallekhana is suicide. "The intentional taking of one's own life" is a positive action, whereas not eating food is passive. Instead of creating a Wiklink to [[suicide]] for the words "facing death voluntarily at the end of one's life", which is contrary to the admonition in [[WP:NPOV]] to '''Avoid stating seriously contested assertions as facts''', it would be better to add a statement in the lead section such as "There is a dispute in the Indian courts about whether Sallekhana is a form of [[suicide]] and is therefore illegal." [[User:Strawberry4Ever|Strawberry4Ever]] ([[User talk:Strawberry4Ever|talk]]) 19:27, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
:::::: It isn't a seriously contested assertion. This is a translation problem, not an argument about whether Sallekhana is suicide. It is.[[User:GideonF|GideonF]] ([[User talk:GideonF|talk]]) 19:30, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
:::::::{{U|GideonF}} You haven't provided any reference to support your claim that ''sallekhana'' is suicide. Those who have researched about the practice, have acknowledged the fact that it's not suicide. I request you to first go through the books on the subject. Also, it's unfortunate that while the discussion is on here, you have added the "suicide bar" to the page. -[[User:जैन|जैन]] ([[User talk:जैन|talk]]) 19:56, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
::::::::Hello {{u|GideonF}} I see you have recently reverted my edit. Can you please help us understand why do you want to add a navbox to this page, which doesn't even contain any link to this page in first place? -- Pankaj Jain ''[[User:Capankajsmilyo|Capankajsmilyo]] <span class="plainlinks">([[User talk:Capankajsmilyo|talk]] '''·''' [[Special:Contribs/Capankajsmilyo|contribs]] '''·''' [//tools.wmflabs.org/xtools-ec/?user=Capankajsmilyo&project=en.wikipedia.org count])</span>'' 20:00, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
{{od|::::::::}} - I'm reminded of the old saw: "Question - If you say that a dog's tail is a leg, how many legs does the dog have. Ansser - 4. Calling a tail a leg doesn't make it one. Deciding not to eat, is an active decision, as opposed to the folks who don't have the choice and starve to death. While the argument can be made (and has been above), that not eating is a passive action, the decision to do that is an active one, which results in the person's death. Researched it. Definitely suicide. The fact that it has a spiritual component is irrelevant as to whether or not it's suicide. And, the taking of one's life is suicide, regardless if it is by passive or active means. If someone does not move out of the way of a moving train, that's suicide. [[User:onel5969|<b><font color="#536895">Onel</font><font color="#FFB300">5969</font></b>]] <sup>[[User talk:Onel5969|<i style="color:blue">TT me</i>]]</sup> 20:27, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
:{{u|Onel5969}} Please avoid such statements. Might I remind you that we are not scholars here. We are mere editors using Wikipedia to Express the views of scholars with references. Please avoid [[WP:POV]] and [[WP:SYNTH]]. Let the readers decide whether it's suicide or not based on the '''cited views of scholars'''. Let's just stick to what we are here for. Further please elaborate the what is the need for adding a controversial Navbox that doesn't even contain any link to this article? -- Pankaj Jain ''[[User:Capankajsmilyo|Capankajsmilyo]] <span class="plainlinks">([[User talk:Capankajsmilyo|talk]] '''·''' [[Special:Contribs/Capankajsmilyo|contribs]] '''·''' [//tools.wmflabs.org/xtools-ec/?user=Capankajsmilyo&project=en.wikipedia.org count])</span>'' 20:38, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
:: Hi. Well, a dictionary definition is a pretty darn good scholarly cite. In fact, in my opinion, it pretty much trumps ''opinions'' of anyone, scholarly or not. Interesting to note that you consider my comments above synthesis and yet are mute on the large majority of the comments of other editors who try to interpret that dictionary definition. Finally, I have no clue as to what you are talking about regarding the addition of a "controversial Navbox". Take care. [[User:onel5969|<b><font color="#536895">Onel</font><font color="#FFB300">5969</font></b>]] <sup>[[User talk:Onel5969|<i style="color:blue">TT me</i>]]</sup> 22:16, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
:{{ping|Onel5969}} Regardless of whether ''sallekhana'' is or is not suicide, my main objection to {{u|GideonF}}'s edits is that equating ''sallekhana'' to suicide using a Wikilink assumes a fact which is under dispute within the context of Jainism. It's like editing the [[Book of Genesis]] article and changing a citation of Genesis 1:1 to say "In the beginning, God [[Big Bang|created the heavens]] and [[Age of the Earth|the earth]]". I think we should show more neutrality when discussing religious issues, regardless of our personal beliefs. [[User:Strawberry4Ever|Strawberry4Ever]] ([[User talk:Strawberry4Ever|talk]]) 20:44, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
::No religious group nor any government gets to alter the English language wholesale. The Indian government may make a legal decision that it is or isn't suicide by legal definition ''in their country'' but that does not change anything for the world at large. Arguments may not be constrained to the narrow confines of India. Purporting to the rest of the world that they don't get it because they are not Jain may be countered with the converse statement that it is the Jain who don't get that it is suicide regardless of what they happen to convince themselves. After looking at sources on both sides, I'm not convinced that it isn't suicide. In a nutshell, this argument is about whether a group which have created a distinction ''for themselves'' can sell it to the rest of the world.<br />&nbsp;—&nbsp;[[User:Berean Hunter|<span style="font-family:High Tower Text;color:#0000ff;font-weight:900;">Berean Hunter</span>]] [[User talk :Berean Hunter|<span style="font-family:High Tower Text;color:#0000ff;font-weight:900;">(talk)</span>]] 22:25, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
:::{{yo|Berean Hunter}} Jains perfectly understand what ''sallekhanā'' is. Such statements are not needed here. Why instead of focusing on references, everyone is giving out his/her own opinion (as if they have understood "Jainism" and its philosophy without reading a word about it)? Also, Rajasthan High Court's order was stayed by "The Supreme Court of Inida". So, no need to cite it. -[[User:जैन|जैन]] ([[User talk:जैन|talk]]) 01:37, 11 February 2016 (UTC)
::::The "stay" is temporary pending further evaluation. The ruling has not been overturned and indeed citable. This is now an [[WP:RFC|RfC]] and consensus will decide what should happen here regardless of what scholars and judges have stated elsewhere. POV references may well be dismissed by a consensus of editors which is why we will also be discussing [[WP:COMMONSENSE|common sense]] issues. Just because you are seeing the ''[[Emperor's New Clothes]]'' doesn't mean that the rest of us are. I'm neutral...clearly you aren't as you have a [[WP:POV|POV]] and cherry-picking your sources. So far, your sources haven't convinced me and you will need to convince others here as they arrive for the RfC.<br />&nbsp;—&nbsp;[[User:Berean Hunter|<span style="font-family:High Tower Text;color:#0000ff;font-weight:900;">Berean Hunter</span>]] [[User talk :Berean Hunter|<span style="font-family:High Tower Text;color:#0000ff;font-weight:900;">(talk)</span>]] 02:03, 11 February 2016 (UTC)
:::::I'm just asking people to first understand the philosophy and read some literature available on the practice. Also, my [[WP:POV|POV]] doesn't matter and I've cited sources which are way better than the sources you've cherry-picked. A person (that too a High court Judge) who has authored a book on the subject will obviously be having more knowledge of the practice than any random article writer. Also, a look at Justice Katju's opinion (on other matters) will make you say: "Hey! he can't be trusted." For example, he wrote in one of his blog post that beloved [[Subhas Chandra Bose|Netaji]] was a Japanese agent.-[[User:जैन|जैन]] ([[User talk:जैन|talk]]) 02:34, 11 February 2016 (UTC)
::::::Just to put the discussion in context, I would like to point out few things. Jain philosophy condemns suicide as the biggest crime and the person commiting such act is said to be reborn in 7th (worst) hell. Sallekhana, on the other hand, is considered a pious practice which only spiritually supreme person is capable and allowed to do. Further, those arguing that it's suicide are commenting on only partial thing. Sallekhana is practising fast unto death when end is near. Ignoring fast and end is near and only cherry picking practicing death is not justified. In the last, suicide would be better linked to the word suicide which has ample appearance in article. Linking a whole phrase to the word is equivalent to ignoring the subjective nature of it. And the '''Suicide sidebar''' is highly out of context here since Sallekhana is not there in the sidebar, nor does it appear in the article '''Suicide'''. Please consider these things once and reply. Thanks -- Pankaj Jain ''[[User:Capankajsmilyo|Capankajsmilyo]] <span class="plainlinks">([[User talk:Capankajsmilyo|talk]] '''·''' [[Special:Contribs/Capankajsmilyo|contribs]] '''·''' [//tools.wmflabs.org/xtools-ec/?user=Capankajsmilyo&project=en.wikipedia.org count])</span>'' 04:32, 11 February 2016 (UTC)
:::::::The sidebar links to [[suicide methods]] which links back here. You can't expect every single suicide method to be listed in the sidebar.[[User:GideonF|GideonF]] ([[User talk:GideonF|talk]]) 10:39, 12 February 2016 (UTC)
::::::::In that case, the sidebar is already there at [[suicide methods]]. It is not needed here. -- Pankaj Jain ''[[User:Capankajsmilyo|Capankajsmilyo]] <span class="plainlinks">([[User talk:Capankajsmilyo|talk]] '''·''' [[Special:Contribs/Capankajsmilyo|contribs]] '''·''' [//tools.wmflabs.org/xtools-ec/?user=Capankajsmilyo&project=en.wikipedia.org count])</span>'' 12:06, 12 February 2016 (UTC)
:::::::::How's that work?[[User:GideonF|GideonF]] ([[User talk:GideonF|talk]]) 12:08, 12 February 2016 (UTC)


== Categories ==
=== ''Sallekhanā'' is not suicide ===


{{ping|Nizil Shah}} : can you explain why [[Special:Diff/782517046|you reverted]] the inclusion of categories [[:Category:Religion and suicide]] and [[:Category:Deaths by starvation]] ? [[User:Jnestorius|jnestorius]]<sup>([[User talk:Jnestorius|talk]])</sup> 14:41, 27 May 2017 (UTC)
I have created this separate section for quoting eminent personalities (Judges and scholars) who have studied the practice of ''sallekhanā'' and found that it can't be termed suicide.-[[User:जैन|Nimit]] ([[User talk:जैन|talk]]) 03:41, 11 February 2016 (UTC)
:{{ping|Jnestorius}}. [[:Category:Deaths by starvation]] lists people who died of starvation so it is irrelevant. [[:Category:Religion and suicide]] is removed because equating Sallekhana with suicide is discussed at lenghth here:[[Talk:Sallekhana/Archive_1#Suicide]]. 1. Jain scriptures and followers of Jainism clearly differentiate between suicide and Sallekhana. 2. Indian judiciary has not pronounced its ''final judgement'' to consider it suicide. The issue is ''[[sub judice]]''. In both ways, sallekhana is compared with suicide but not considered as suicide except by the activists who has litigated in courts. So placing it under [[:Category:Religion and suicide]] is like accepting it as suicide. The article is already placed in its parent category [[:Category:Religion and death]] which is OK. Hope this clarifies. Regards, :) -[[User:Nizil Shah|Nizil]] ([[User talk:Nizil Shah|talk]]) 17:29, 27 May 2017 (UTC)
:: [[List of people who died of starvation]] is a list, but [[:Category:Deaths by starvation]] is not a list, it is a category. Most of the articles are biographical articles (about people who died by starvation) but some are not. Deaths by Sallekhana are deaths by starvation. Placing Sallekhana under [[:Category:Religion and suicide]] does not imply that Sallekhana is a form of suicide; it implies that the article discusses religion and suicide. [[User:Jnestorius|jnestorius]]<sup>([[User talk:Jnestorius|talk]])</sup> 23:34, 27 May 2017 (UTC)


== External links modified (January 2018) ==
*A complete book on this subject: ''[https://books.google.com/books?id=DN0cAAAAMAAJ&q=sallekhana&dq=sallekhana&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwie4_ar_u3KAhWMdD4KHdHuDGAQ6AEIPzAG Sallekhanā Is Not Suicide]'' by Justice [[T. K. Tukol]]. {{quote|My studies of Jurisprudence, the Indian Penal Code and of criminal cases decided by me had convinced that the vow of ''Sallekhanā'' as propounded in the Jaina scriptures is not suicide.|[[T. K. Tukol|Justice T. K. Tukol]]}}


Hello fellow Wikipedians,
* [[Shiv Visvanathan|Mr. Shiv Visvanathan]] on [http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/lead/a-reductive-reading-of-santhara/article7572187.ece Sallekhana]


I have just modified one external link on [[Sallekhana]]. Please take a moment to review [[special:diff/821970547|my edit]]. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit [[User:Cyberpower678/FaQs#InternetArchiveBot|this simple FaQ]] for additional information. I made the following changes:
* [http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/supreme-court-lifts-stay-on-santhara-ritual-of-jains/article7600851.ece?ref=relatedNews Santhara a component of non-violence: Hon'ble Supreme Court of India]
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20170512163451/http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN to http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=12770846


When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
* [[Google:M. Pabst Battin]] (Distinguished Professor of Philosophy and Adjunct Professor of Internal Medicine, Division of Medical Ethics, at the University of Utah) writes : {{quote|Sallekhana is not be conflated with suicide in any usual sense, and is to be done without striving, without passion, and without emotional arousal or turmoil of any form.|M. Pabst Battin <ref>[https://books.google.com/books?id=XX-ECgAAQBAJ&pg=PA47 The Ethics of Suicide: Historical Sources]</ref>}}
*{{reflist-talk}}

'''...however other scholars and judges say that it is:'''
*''[http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19202863 Sallekhana: the ethicality and legality of religious suicide by starvation in the Jain religious community]'' from NIH.
*"[http://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2015/09/02/436820789/fasting-to-the-death-is-it-a-religious-rite-or-suicide retired Supreme Court Justice Markandey Katju says the Jains are free to continue the ritual even though he believes that it is illegal]" from NPR.
*[http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-33998688 The high court in Rajasthan ruled it was suicide] from BBC.<br />&nbsp;—&nbsp;[[User:Berean Hunter|<span style="font-family:High Tower Text;color:#0000ff;font-weight:900;">Berean Hunter</span>]] [[User talk :Berean Hunter|<span style="font-family:High Tower Text;color:#0000ff;font-weight:900;">(talk)</span>]] 22:01, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

=== Sallekhanā and suicide - Polar opposites ===

Some posters to help understand the practice better. -[[User:जैन|Nimit]] ([[User talk:जैन|talk]]) 17:41, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

{|
|<gallery mode=packed>
File:Sallekhana not suicide.png| ''Sallekhanā'' could be of twelve years
File:Sallekhana zenith of human life.png | Permission of relatives and head monk is necessary
File:Sallekhana 1.jpeg | Quietude - Equanimity - Tranquility
</gallery>
|}

:What is the word you are translating as "suicide"? In English, suicide doesn't mean any of those things.[[User:GideonF|GideonF]] ([[User talk:GideonF|talk]]) 10:50, 12 February 2016 (UTC)
::It is clear that Jains distinguish between suicide and Sallekhanā. Therefore, to write in this context of Sallekhanā as a "form of suicide" is simply an abuse of language. [[User:Maproom|Maproom]] ([[User talk:Maproom|talk]]) 11:30, 12 February 2016 (UTC)
:::It doesn't matter if Jains distinguish it, English does not.[[User:GideonF|GideonF]] ([[User talk:GideonF|talk]]) 11:35, 12 February 2016 (UTC)
::::Just for your information {{u|GideonF}}, [[Wikipedia]] is an [[Encyclopedia]], not [[Dictionary]]. -- Pankaj Jain ''[[User:Capankajsmilyo|Capankajsmilyo]] <span class="plainlinks">([[User talk:Capankajsmilyo|talk]] '''·''' [[Special:Contribs/Capankajsmilyo|contribs]] '''·''' [//tools.wmflabs.org/xtools-ec/?user=Capankajsmilyo&project=en.wikipedia.org count])</span>'' 12:04, 12 February 2016 (UTC)
:::::Is there some kind of point you're trying to make?[[User:GideonF|GideonF]] ([[User talk:GideonF|talk]]) 12:06, 12 February 2016 (UTC)
::::::Encyclopedia works on references which is not anywhere in your [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Sallekhana&diff=704591367&oldid=704589581 this] edit. I hope, this clarifies your confusion. You should have atleast paid attention to [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Sallekhana&diff=704593785&oldid=704590615 this], as said by {{u|Maproom}}. Yet you keep reverting [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Sallekhana&diff=704592467&oldid=704592309 again] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Sallekhana&diff=704594212&oldid=704593560 again]. -- Pankaj Jain ''[[User:Capankajsmilyo|Capankajsmilyo]] <span class="plainlinks">([[User talk:Capankajsmilyo|talk]] '''·''' [[Special:Contribs/Capankajsmilyo|contribs]] '''·''' [//tools.wmflabs.org/xtools-ec/?user=Capankajsmilyo&project=en.wikipedia.org count])</span>'' 12:23, 12 February 2016 (UTC)
:::::::Not every single word needs to be individually referenced. If the references say it is a person deliberately ending their life, no additional reference is needed to say it is suicide any more than if the references say a number is two plus two an additional reference is required to say it is four. I have already provided the dictionary definition of suicide for the benefit of non-native English speakers who are confused about its meaning, but you insist on not paying attention to it.[[User:GideonF|GideonF]] ([[User talk:GideonF|talk]]) 12:26, 12 February 2016 (UTC)
::::::::So you think you're the only authority on English language? Judges, Philosophy professors, Social scientists and other scholars who have said that "Sallekhanā is not suicide" also know what the word suicide means. You've failed to understand both: "suicide" as well as "sallekhanā". -[[User:जैन|Nimit]] ([[User talk:जैन|talk]]) 13:14, 12 February 2016 (UTC)
:::::::::I'm not the only authority on English, but I'm a native speaker, unlike the people you're referring to. Do you know the correct word Jains use in their native language to refer to the forbidden forms of suicide? That's the word we should be using for what Sallekhana contrasts with rather than the English word suicide, which covers both.[[User:GideonF|GideonF]] ([[User talk:GideonF|talk]]) 13:53, 12 February 2016 (UTC)
{{od|:::::::::}} {{u|GideonF}}, I'm a native speaker of English, and in English it's not always clear whether death caused by a refusal to eat food is suicide. Take the Bobby Sands hunger strike, for example. Was his death suicide or was it a protest carried out to the ultimate limit? As I pointed out before, the dictionary definition which you provided doesn't settle the question because it's talking about actively "taking one's own life" rather than passively refusing to prolong it. Within the context of this article I think the question of whether sallekhanā is suicide should be left open, since it's a matter for debate. As I understand it, the Wikipedia edit cycle is supposed to be BRD: boldly edit, revert, discuss. You boldly edited the article to equate sallekhanā with suicide, your change was reverted, and now we're discussing it. Continually restoring your reverted edits is edit warring. You should get a consensus first, and as far as I can see you don't have it. [[User:Strawberry4Ever|Strawberry4Ever]] ([[User talk:Strawberry4Ever|talk]]) 14:59, 12 February 2016 (UTC)
::::::::::It's not a bold edit at all, it's a common-sense edit that's being opposed by religiously motivated POV-pushers.[[User:GideonF|GideonF]] ([[User talk:GideonF|talk]]) 15:06, 12 February 2016 (UTC)
Sorry {{u|GideonF}}, I find myself agreeing with {{u|Strawberry4Ever}} here. It is becoming more and more obvious to me that as far as consensus is concerned, you're not even close. I believe it is time to [[WP:DROPTHESTICK|Put the stick down]] and move on. Regards, <span style="border:1px solid #FFFFFF">[[User:Aloha27|<font style="color:#2B65EC;background:#FFFFFF">'''&nbsp; Aloha27'''</font>]] [[User talk:Aloha27|<font style="color:#FFFFFF;background:#2B65EC">&nbsp;<small>talk</small>&nbsp;</font>]]</span> 16:50, 12 February 2016 (UTC)

{{Talk:Sallekhana/GA1}}

{{Talk:Sallekhana/GA2}}


{{sourcecheck|checked=false|needhelp=}}
== Some points on improvement ==


Cheers.—[[User:InternetArchiveBot|'''<span style="color:darkgrey;font-family:monospace">InternetArchiveBot</span>''']] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">([[User talk:InternetArchiveBot|Report bug]])</span> 17:53, 23 January 2018 (UTC)
* Legality: This landmark case sparked debate in India, where national bioethical guidelines have been in place since 1980.<ref>{{cite journal |last1=Kumar |first1=Nandini K. |year=2006 |title=Bioethics activities in India |journal=Eastern Mediterranean Health Journal |volume=12 |issue=Suppl 1 |pages=S56–65 |pmid=17037690}}</ref>{{what}}
** What is in "national bioethical guidelines"? How it relates to Sallekhana? Please clarify.
** '''Legality of Sallekhana is unclear now as India decriminalised "attempting suicide" itself in 2017. Attempting suicide is now considered as a mental health issue. So what happens to Sallekhana being considered as a suicide and so crime by the court??''' The relevant provision of the Mental Healthcare Bill states, "Notwithstanding anything contained in section 309 of the Indian Penal Code, any person who attempts to commit suicide shall be presumed, unless proved otherwise, to have severe stress and shall not be tried and punished under the said Code."<ref name=":1">{{Cite news|url=http://indianexpress.com/article/india/mental-health-bill-decriminalising-suicide-passed-by-parliament/|title=Mental health bill decriminalising suicide passed by Parliament|date=2017-03-27|work=The Indian Express|access-date=2017-03-27|language=en-US}}</ref>--[[User:Nizil Shah|Nizil]] ([[User talk:Nizil Shah|talk]]) 05:54, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
:::I have added accordingly but more updates on issue needed.--[[User:Nizil Shah|Nizil]] ([[User talk:Nizil Shah|talk]]) 06:05, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
::::You whole argument is based on the assumption that Sallekhana is suicide and covered under section 309, which is not the case yet as per supreme court judgement. So, I would suggest, either, add a source which specifically discuss Sallekhana in light of latest amendment, or ignore the amendment in regards to legal status of Sallekhana altogether. -- Pankaj Jain ''[[User:Capankajsmilyo|Capankajsmilyo]] <span class="plainlinks">([[User talk:Capankajsmilyo|talk]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[Special:Contribs/Capankajsmilyo|contribs]]&nbsp;'''·''' [//tools.wmflabs.org/xtools-ec/?user=Capankajsmilyo&project=en.wikipedia.org count])</span>'' 06:11, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
:::::The Rajasthan High Court banned the Sallekhana citing it as an attempt to suicide under IPC 309. The Supreme Court has not pronounced it judgement yet and the subject matter is still ''sub judice''. The Supreme Court has lifted the ban ''until'' the final judgement is pronounced by the Supreme Court. Now the IPC 309 itself is decriminalised in March 2017. So attempting suicide is not crime anymore. So is Sallekhana crime now? The Rajasthan Court considered Sallekhana as suicide and so crime. But now issue itself is unclear until the Supreme Court pronounce its judgement.<ref>http://indianexpress.com/article/india/india-others/supreme-court-stays-rajasthan-high-court-order-on-santhara/</ref>--[[User:Nizil Shah|Nizil]] ([[User talk:Nizil Shah|talk]]) 06:28, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
::::::Stay on Rajasthan High Court implies that Sallekhana is not covered in section 309, till Supreme Court uphold the decision of High Court. -- Pankaj Jain ''[[User:Capankajsmilyo|Capankajsmilyo]] <span class="plainlinks">([[User talk:Capankajsmilyo|talk]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[Special:Contribs/Capankajsmilyo|contribs]]&nbsp;'''·''' [//tools.wmflabs.org/xtools-ec/?user=Capankajsmilyo&project=en.wikipedia.org count])</span>'' 06:31, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
::::::The whole case was built up on IPC 309. I chose to wrote "unclear" because now IPC 309 is struck down so the Rajsthan Court decision seems void. I think adding the case is now ''Sub judice'' would be helpful.--[[User:Nizil Shah|Nizil]] ([[User talk:Nizil Shah|talk]]) 06:46, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
:::::::I guess there is no need for that. The article already mention the fact that case has gone to supreme court and it has imposed a stay on HC order. Further, if anyone go through Sallekhana / Santhara in present legal framework, he / she is not guilty of any crime. So, legally Sallekhana is not a crime, nor it is covered under section 309 in present scenario. If Supreme Court rules otherwise, then the legal status will change and we can add that it is illegal. -- Pankaj Jain ''[[User:Capankajsmilyo|Capankajsmilyo]] <span class="plainlinks">([[User talk:Capankajsmilyo|talk]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[Special:Contribs/Capankajsmilyo|contribs]]&nbsp;'''·''' [//tools.wmflabs.org/xtools-ec/?user=Capankajsmilyo&project=en.wikipedia.org count])</span>'' 06:50, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
:::::::: OK. I have reorganised some sentences for better readability. Can you please check "national bioethical guidelines" issue mentioned before? What is it? Relevant here? --[[User:Nizil Shah|Nizil]] ([[User talk:Nizil Shah|talk]]) 07:24, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
:::::::: Oh, it is already removed. Thank for lively discussion. Legality section seems {{done}} now. Regards,--[[User:Nizil Shah|Nizil]] ([[User talk:Nizil Shah|talk]]) 07:26, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
{{od}}Thanks for improving the section {{u|Nizil Shah}} -- Pankaj Jain ''[[User:Capankajsmilyo|Capankajsmilyo]] <span class="plainlinks">([[User talk:Capankajsmilyo|talk]] '''·''' [[Special:Contribs/Capankajsmilyo|contribs]] '''·''' [//tools.wmflabs.org/xtools-ec/?user=Capankajsmilyo&project=en.wikipedia.org count])</span>'' 07:34, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
;Other points
*Comparison with suicide:
**The points on why it is not suicide is made with references. But why it is considered as suicide by some is not made. Why it is considered as suicide by the High Court is not told. I think opinion of opposite side is also needed for [[WP:NPOV|NPOV]].
* In practise: ''In around 300 BC, Chandragupta Maurya (founder of the Maurya Empire) undertook sallekhana atop Chandragiri Hill, Śravaṇa Beḷgoḷa, Karnataka.[28][29][30] Chandragupta basadi at Shravanabelagola (a chief seat of the Jains) marks the place where the saint Chandragupta died.[31]'' This clearly tells that Chandragupta undertook Sallekhana but [[Chandragupta Maurya]] article tells that ''the accounts unproven but plausible''. So it is not clear and proven historic truth that Maurya actually undertook Sallekhana. This sentences should be written differently to include this too.
* Procedure: ''The duration of the practice could be up to twelve years or more.'' I think this sentence is misleading. What does it mean? Sallekhana can be of varying length; from few days to years. It depends on how one undertook it; giving up food quickly or gradually. Reword it.
* History: History of practice should be included in ''In Practice'' section. It should be also included that the practise in not ''general and practical goal'' among [[Svetambara]] Jains. See ref:<ref name="Dundas2003">{{cite book|author=Paul Dundas|title=The Jains|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=X8iAAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA179|date=2 September 2003|publisher=Routledge|isbn=1-134-50165-X|pages=179–181}}</ref>
* Ethics: Sallekhana is an additional or supplementary vow to 12 main vows. So why do we need a textbox and information regarding those 12 vows? It seems irrelevant.
::{{u|Capankajsmilyo}}, please note above points and make changes accordingly. Thanks for working on such complex topic. Regards,--[[User:Nizil Shah|Nizil]] ([[User talk:Nizil Shah|talk]]) 06:32, 16 April 2017 (UTC)
{{reflist}}

Latest revision as of 13:54, 30 April 2024

GA Review

[edit]
GA toolbox
Reviewing
This review is transcluded from Talk:Sallekhana/GA2. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Aircorn (talk · contribs) 01:50, 16 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]


Review

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GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

I know nothing about this topic so I am reviewing this article as someone who is looking to learn about sallekhana with very little background. I see this was part reviewed and then the reviewer retired. They review a bit differently than me in as much as I don't demand changes. I think of them more as suggestions and am willing to be convinced that the way you have it currently formed is the correct way. You know more about the topic than me afterall. Anyway reading through the previous part review I think most points are addressed or are not a major concern to me (some were useful though and I have raised some similar concerns below). There are also some comments by Nizil Shah on the talk page below this review. Some mirror ones I was already thinking and I think they should be at least responded to as part of this review.

  1. It is reasonably well written.
    a (prose, spelling, and grammar): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):
    Made some minor changes as I read the article. Overall I thought it was nicely written. I went from knowing nothing to having a good idea on what sallekhana involves. Have left some specific comments below regarding some wording and sentences. I thought the lead was great as an explanation, but the overview was not really adequate. That is probably my main gripe with this criteria.
  2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.
    a (reference section): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR): d (copyvio and plagiarism):
    Sources generally look good. Very well organised. Found [1] which may be of some use if you want to use it. Overall the quality looks good.
  3. It is broad in its coverage.
    a (major aspects): b (focused):
    Definitely focused, but felt it was lacking a bit more on the history of the vow. What lead to the vows being used? Who started the practice (was it Chandragupta Maurya - this is not really made clear)? Were there any developments along the way. It appears to be a very old practise so I would be surprised if there wasn't more information about its historical development.
  4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.
    Fair representation without bias:
    Just share the concern about the suicide section. Comparisons with suicide is almost entirely about how it is not. It needs some info about why it is sometimes compared to suicide for context at least. Don't need much and am more than happy to keep the majority on why it is not.
  5. It is stable.
    No edit wars, etc.:
    A over year old discussion regarding suicide in the lead, which was resolved to consensus. Nothing stands out in the edit history.
  6. It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.
    a (images are tagged and non-free content have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
    Imagaes are good. The Ratna Karanda Sravakachara text is hard to read at that size so not sure how useful it is (you can click on it to enlarge it so it does have vale). All images seem to be correctly licensed.
  7. Overall:
    Pass/Fail:
    A few little things to discuss, but quite enjoyed reading this article.


General Comments

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  • I am a bit unsure of the guide you are following when italicising sallekhana. Sometimes it is and sometimes it isn't. Same with capitalising the s. Done now consistently Sallekhana.
  • The overview did not really explain what sallenkhana is. It says to thin out, but does not explain what this means. ----rewrote lead  Done
  • The Doddahundi nishidhi inscription, a hero stone from Doddahundi, 18 km from Tirumakudalu Narasipura in the Mysore district, Karnataka state, India. Is this sentence incomplete. --- Rewriting  Done
  • In both the writings of Jain Agamas and the general views of many followers of Jainism, due to the degree of self-actualisation and spiritual strength required by those who undertake the ritual, sallekhana is considered to be a display of utmost piety, purification and expiation almost an exact repetition. --- moved and removed repeatation.  Done
  • Death is for compunds whose dissolution is termed Is compunds a typo. It is a quote so if it is present as such in the quote it should stay, but needs a [sic] so the readers know  Done
  • Too much WP:proseline in legality section --- I think it is solved but please check. --- Rewrote and merged section with Comparision with Suicide.  Done
  • The petition extends to those who facilitate individuals taking the vow of with aiding and abetting an act of suicide. Is sallenkhana missing here. --- added  Done
  • Clarification needed tag needs to be resolved. Done

Source check

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  • Copyviochek using [2] revealed a few close matches. A closer look showed that this was de to the use of quotes or pretty common phrases so I am not concerned with this at all
  • Random source check
    • 37 He died on 18 September 1955. Don't think the convenience link leads to the right place. Found it through google books and it supports that statement.
    • 6 According to Jain texts, sallekhana leads to ahimsā (non-violence or non-injury), as a person observing sallekhana subjugates the passions, which are the root cause of hiṃsā (injury or violence) Can't read page (stopped at 115 typically) so assuming good faith
    • 56 Silent march were carried out in various cities. Should be marches. Source supports statement
    • 2 The vow of sallekhana is observed by the Jain ascetics and lay votaries at the end of their life by gradually reducing the intake of food and liquids Three cites for this statement. This one would probably is fine.
    • 11 Jain ethical code also prescribes seven supplementary vows, which include three guņa vratas and four śikşā vratas Pretty similar, but with such a simple statement it would be hard not to.

Reply

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I've tried and resolved them. Please have a relook and let me know what more need to be done. -- Pankaj Jain Capankajsmilyo (talk · contribs · count) 02:49, 21 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Obviously the article does not meet the stability criteria at the moment. Capankajsmilyo and ‎Nizil Shah, could one of you leave a note at my talk page when you have finished. I am taking it off my watchlist as it is drowning everything else out. AIRcorn (talk) 21:36, 21 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Sure. Once its done, we will inform you. Regards and thanks for drawing me here.--Nizil (talk) 11:19, 22 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Final comments

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I think this is very close. Just a few points.

  • Made a few edits as I read. As always I will not take offense if these are reverted. Especially if they change the context or the point of what you are trying to say too much.
  • means 'to thin out', 'scoure out' or 'to slender' should that be "scour out"
  • Properly thinning out the passions and the body through gradually abstaining from food and drink is called Sallekhana. This got a little repetitive with the "this is called Sallenkhana", but I think is important to mention. How about "Properly thinning out the passions and the body is accomplished through gradually abstaining from food and drink".
  • History is much better, the explanation of what it is is clearer and I am happy with the suicide comparison. Flow could be improved, but it meets the 1a GA criteria as far as I am concerned. AIRcorn (talk) 07:02, 30 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Capankajsmilyo and Nizil Shah: AIRcorn (talk) 11:30, 3 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Done-- Pankaj Jain Capankajsmilyo (talk · contribs · count) 11:35, 3 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks all. Passing. AIRcorn (talk) 22:29, 3 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you, Aircorn. And thank you, Capankajsmilyo for nominating and helping me on every stage.--Nizil (talk) 12:32, 4 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Aircorn and Nizil Shah for GA. -- Pankaj Jain Capankajsmilyo (talk · contribs · count) 12:34, 4 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Categories

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@Nizil Shah: : can you explain why you reverted the inclusion of categories Category:Religion and suicide and Category:Deaths by starvation ? jnestorius(talk) 14:41, 27 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Jnestorius:. Category:Deaths by starvation lists people who died of starvation so it is irrelevant. Category:Religion and suicide is removed because equating Sallekhana with suicide is discussed at lenghth here:Talk:Sallekhana/Archive_1#Suicide. 1. Jain scriptures and followers of Jainism clearly differentiate between suicide and Sallekhana. 2. Indian judiciary has not pronounced its final judgement to consider it suicide. The issue is sub judice. In both ways, sallekhana is compared with suicide but not considered as suicide except by the activists who has litigated in courts. So placing it under Category:Religion and suicide is like accepting it as suicide. The article is already placed in its parent category Category:Religion and death which is OK. Hope this clarifies. Regards, :) -Nizil (talk) 17:29, 27 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
List of people who died of starvation is a list, but Category:Deaths by starvation is not a list, it is a category. Most of the articles are biographical articles (about people who died by starvation) but some are not. Deaths by Sallekhana are deaths by starvation. Placing Sallekhana under Category:Religion and suicide does not imply that Sallekhana is a form of suicide; it implies that the article discusses religion and suicide. jnestorius(talk) 23:34, 27 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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