Template talk:Sydney image with region labels: Difference between revisions
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:Can you please confirm that you have not edited under another IP? As a "new" editor your edits are very detailed. [[User:LibStar|LibStar]] ([[User talk:LibStar|talk]]) 23:44, 17 July 2023 (UTC) |
:Can you please confirm that you have not edited under another IP? As a "new" editor your edits are very detailed. [[User:LibStar|LibStar]] ([[User talk:LibStar|talk]]) 23:44, 17 July 2023 (UTC) |
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== Map in Need of Revamp == |
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The existing map is outdated, vague and inaccurate. It has regions that are cluttered, overlapping and aren't organised properly. It includes place names like Airport, Botany Bay and Bondi Beach which are taking up too much room on the map unnecessarily as they are not regions but individual places/locations. The current map lists certain regions on it with compass titles but then also randomly has council LGA titles mixed in too when in reality the council LGAs would fit into the compass regions and the map should be basing its titles off one or the other. The way the map is now isn't coherent, consistent and is absolutely based off original research. Sydney's compass regions will always be indefinite and subjective mostly based off colloquialism so if the map is going to list compass regions without following existing government maps, the map will always have some sort of subjective original research. |
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In hindsight the map could just have council LGA titles as that appears to be what the internal dividing of the map is outlining and that would be the only true way to make this map officially structured with reliable government sourcing. The other alternative reliable way to name the regions on the map would be to base the map off of the official Australian Bureau of Statistic's Regions at either their statistical area Level 3; https://abs.gov.au/census/find-census-data/community-profiles/2021/11703 or statistical area level 4; https://abs.gov.au/census/find-census-data/quickstats/2021/117. |
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If we're going to choose to keep the map as compass regions as opposed to making it officially government sourced based off council LGAs or The Australian Bureau of Statistics' Regions then I propose the map gets updated, organised, properly named and inclusive of compass regions that are currently missing. I've done a lot of research on Sydney's Regions and created new coding for the map which give each section of Sydney its own identity basing it primarily off existing Sydney regions and their compass direction/proximity from Sydney CBD as well as also basing it off existing Wikipedia Articles, council LGAs, The Australian Bureau of Statistics' Regions, Cumberland County Cadastral Parishes, federal divisions and postcode sequences. With all these taken into account the new map is more inclusive, detailed, properly organised and informative. I've linked all the regions to their corresponding Wikipedia Articles and linked some regions to council LGA articles (both current & former ones) for the sake of describing certain regions that may not necessarily have a corresponding article with the same title. I've also included some peri-urban areas and towns that surround Greater Sydney which are located on the map but aren't listed nor acknowledged (probably because they're not part of Greater Sydney). I felt adding The Central Coast, The Blue Mountains and Holsworthy is still useful however and makes the map more inclusive even if these areas are not within Greater Sydney. |
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I have made a similar proposal regarding The 'Sydney image with region labels' Map on its talk page; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Regions_of_Sydney |
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The coding is as follows: |
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{{Image label begin|width={{{width|350}}}|image=Sydney_Areas_Map.svg|float={{{float|right}}}}} |
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{{Image label small|x=0.78|y=0.66|scale={{{width|350}}}|text=[[Sydney central business district|<span style="background-color: white;">Sydney<br/>CBD</span>]]}} |
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{{Image label small|x=0.89|y=0.67|scale={{{width|350}}}|text=[[Eastern Suburbs (Sydney)|<span style="background-color: white; ">Eastern<br/>Suburbs</span>]]}} |
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{{Image label small|x=0.87|y=0.75|scale={{{width|350}}}|text=[[City of Randwick|<span style="background-color: white;">South-Eastern<br/>Suburbs</span>]]}} |
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{{Image label small|x=0.79|y=0.73|scale={{{width|350}}}|text=[[Southern Sydney|<span style="background-color: white;">Inner<br/>South</span>]]}} |
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{{Image label small|x=0.63|y=0.79|scale={{{width|350}}}|text=[[St George, Sydney|<span style="background-color: white;">Southern<br/>Suburbs</span>]]}} |
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{{Image label small|x=0.65|y=0.89|scale={{{width|350}}}|text=[[Sutherland Shire|<span style="background-color: white;">Outer <br/>South</span>]]}} |
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{{Image label small|x=0.69|y=0.63|scale={{{width|350}}}|text=[[Inner West|<span style="background-color: white;">Inner<br/>West</span>]]}} |
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{{Image label small|x=0.61|y=0.71|scale={{{width|350}}}|text=[[City of Canterbury (New South Wales)|<span style="background-color: white;">Inner<br/>South-West</span>]]}} |
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{{Image label small|x=0.41|y=0.58|scale={{{width|350}}}|text=[[Greater Western Sydney|<span style="background-color: white;">Western<br/>Suburbs</span>]]}} |
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{{Image label small|x=0.37|y=0.74|scale={{{width|350}}}|text=[[South Western Sydney|<span style="background-color: white;">South-Western<br/>Suburbs</span>]]}} |
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{{Image label small|x=0.47|y=0.51|scale={{{width|350}}}|text=[[City of Parramatta|<span style="background-color: white;">North-Western<br/>Suburbs</span>]]}} |
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{{Image label small|x=0.51|y=0.43|scale={{{width|350}}}|text=[[Hills District, New South Wales|<span style="background-color: white;">Hills<br/>District</span>]]}} |
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{{Image label small|x=0.21|y=0.50|scale={{{width|350}}}|text=[[City of Penrith|<span style="background-color: white;">Outer<br/>West</span>]]}} |
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{{Image label small|x=0.02|y=0.49|scale={{{width|350}}}|text=[[Blue Mountains (New South Wales)|<span style="background-color: white;">Blue<br/>Mountains</span>]]}} |
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{{Image label small|x=0.21|y=0.92|scale={{{width|350}}}|text=[[Macarthur, New South Wales|<span style="background-color: white;">Outer<br/>South-West</span>]]}} |
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{{Image label small|x=0.40|y=0.97|scale={{{width|350}}}|text=[[Holsworthy, New South Wales|<span style="background-color: white;">Holsworthy</span>]]}} |
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{{Image label small|x=0.30|y=0.39|scale={{{width|350}}}|text=[[Blacktown City Council|<span style="background-color: white;">Outer<br/>North-West</span>]]}} |
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{{Image label small|x=0.24|y=0.25|scale={{{width|350}}}|text=[[City of Hawkesbury|<span style="background-color: white;">Hawkesbury</span>]]}} |
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{{Image label small|x=0.65|y=0.55|scale={{{width|350}}}|text=[[Northern Sydney|<span style="background-color: white;">Northern<br/>Suburbs</span>]]}} |
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{{Image label small|x=0.79|y=0.51|scale={{{width|350}}}|text=[[North Shore (Sydney)|<span style="background-color: white;">Lower<br/>North<br/>Shore</span>]]}} |
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{{Image label small|x=0.70|y=0.41|scale={{{width|350}}}|text=[[Ku-ring-gai Council|<span style="background-color: white;">Upper<br/>North<br/>Shore</span>]]}} |
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{{Image label small|x=0.64|y=0.34|scale={{{width|350}}}|text=[[Hornsby Shire|<span style="background-color: white;">Outer<br/>North</span>]]}} |
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{{Image label small|x=0.80|y=0.41|scale={{{width|350}}}|text=[[Forest District (Sydney)|<span style="background-color: white;">Forest<br/>District</span>]]}} |
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{{Image label small|x=0.89|y=0.45|scale={{{width|350}}}|text=[[Northern Beaches|<span style="background-color: white;">Lower<br/>Northern<br/>Beaches</span>]]}} |
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{{Image label small|x=0.89|y=0.30|scale={{{width|350}}}|text=[[Pittwater Council|<span style="background-color: white;">Upper<br/>Northern<br/>Beaches</span>]]}} |
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{{Image label small|x=0.87|y=0.08|scale={{{width|350}}}|text=[[Central Coast (New South Wales)|<span style="background-color: white;">Central<br/>Coast</span>]]}} |
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{{Image label end}}<noinclude> |
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This new map structure is based off of the following boundaries: |
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===Central Sydney=== |
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*City Centre |
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Area: Sydney CBD |
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Postcode: 2000 |
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LGA: City of Sydney (North End) |
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*Inner City-North |
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Suburbs: The Rocks, Dawes Point, Millers Point, Barangaroo |
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Postcode: 2000 |
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LGA: City of Sydney (North End) |
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*Inner City-South |
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Suburb: Haymarket |
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Postcode: 2000 |
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LGA: City of Sydney (North End) |
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*Inner City-West |
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Suburbs: Pyrmont, Ultimo, Chippendale, Darlington. |
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Postcodes: 2007 to 2009 |
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LGA: City of Sydney (North-West Side) |
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*Inner City-East |
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Suburbs: Surry Hills, Darlinghurst, Woolloomooloo, |
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Potts Point, Elizabeth Bay, Rushcutters Bay. |
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Postcodes: 2010 and 2011 |
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LGA: City of Sydney (North-East Side) |
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===Eastern Sydney=== |
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*Eastern Suburbs (Woollahra-Waverley) |
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Suburb examples: Paddington, Bondi, Double Bay, Vaucluse |
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Postcodes: 2021 to 2030 |
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Number of suburbs: 21 |
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LGA: Waverley Council, Woollahra Municipal Council, The Centennial Parklands, City of Sydney (Far East Side) |
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Western Boundary: Eastern Distributor, South Dowling Street, Boundary Street, Neild Avenue and Rushcutters Creek |
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*South-Eastern Suburbs (Randwick-Botany) |
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Suburb examples: Coogee, Kingsford, Maroubra, Eastgardens |
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Postcodes: 2031 to 2036, 2052, 2018 and 2019 |
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Number of suburbs: 21 |
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LGA: Randwick City Council, Bayside Council (East Side) |
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Western Boundary: Eastern Distributor, Southern Cross Drive and Mill Stream. |
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Southern Boundary: Botany Bay |
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===Southern Sydney=== |
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*Inner South (South Sydney) |
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Suburb examples: Redfern, Zetland, Alexandria, Mascot |
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Postcodes: 2015 to 2018 and 2020 |
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Number of suburbs: 9 |
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LGA: City of Sydney (South End), Bayside Council (North End) |
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Northern Boundary: Central Station and Cleveland Street. |
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Eastern Boundary: Eastern Distributor, Southern Cross Drive and Mill Stream. |
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Western Boundary: Alexandra Canal and T3 Train Line. |
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Southern Boundary: Botany Bay. |
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*Southern Suburbs (St George) |
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Suburb examples: Rockdale, Kogarah, Sans Souci, Hurstville |
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Postcodes: 2205, 2207 to 2210 and 2216 to 2223 |
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Number of suburbs: 39 |
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LGA: Georges River Council, Bayside Council (West Side) |
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Northern Boundary: Wolli Creek and M5. |
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Eastern Boundary: Botany Bay. |
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Western Boundary: Salt Pan Creek. |
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Southern Boundary: Georges River. |
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*Outer South (Sutherland Shire) |
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Suburb examples: Menai, Miranda, Caringbah, Cronulla |
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Postcodes: 2224 to 2234 |
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Number of suburbs: 38 |
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LGA: Sutherland Shire Council (North-East End) |
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Northern Boundary: Georges River and Botany Bay |
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Western Boundary: Mill Creek and New Illawarra Road |
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Southern Boundary: Port Hacking |
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===Northern Sydney=== |
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*Northern Suburbs (Ryde-Hunters Hill) |
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Suburb examples: Gladesville, Macquarie Park, Epping, Beecroft |
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Postcodes: 2110 to 2114, 2118, 2119, 2121, 2122 and 2067 |
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Number of suburbs: 26 |
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LGA: Hunters Hill Council, City of Ryde, City of Parramatta (North-East End), Hornsby Shire Council (South End) |
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Northern Boundary: Byles Creek and Devlins Creek. |
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Eastern Boundary: Lane Cove River. |
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Western Boundary: Pennant Hills Road, Marsden Road and Wharf Road. |
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Southern Boundary: Parramatta River. |
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*Lower North Shore (North Sydney-Willoughby) |
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Suburb examples: Lane Cove, Mosman, Artarmon, Chatswood |
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Postcodes: 2060 to 2069 and 2088 to 2090 |
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Number of suburbs: 35 |
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LGA: Mosman Council, North Sydney Council, Lane Cove Council, Willoughby City Council |
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Northern Boundary: Boundary Street and Blue Gum Creek. |
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Eastern Boundary: Middle Harbour |
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Western Boundary: Lane Cove River. |
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*Upper North Shore (Ku-ring-gai) |
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Suburb examples: Lindfield, Gordon, Pymble, St Ives |
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Postcodes: 2069 to 2076 |
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Number of suburbs: 17 |
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LGA: Ku-Ring-Gai Council |
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Northern Boundary: Cowan Creek |
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Eastern Boundary: Middle Harbour Creek and Garigal National Park. |
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Western Boundary: Lane Cove River, Coups Creek and The Pacific Highway. |
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Southern Boundary: Boundary Street and Blue Gum Creek. |
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*Outer North (Hornsby) |
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Suburb examples: Pennant Hills, Normanhurst, Asquith, Berowra |
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Postcodes: 2076, 2077, 2079 to 2082 and 2120 |
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Number of suburbs: 13 |
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LGA: Hornsby Shire Council (South-East End) |
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Eastern Boundary: Lane Cove River, Coups Creek and The Pacific Highway. |
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Western Boundary: Berowra Creek. |
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Southern Boundary: Byles Creek and Devlins Creek. |
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*Forest District (Frenchs Forest) |
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Suburb examples: Forestville, Oxford Falls, Duffys Forest |
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Postcodes: 2084 to 2087 and 2099 |
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Number of suburbs: 8 |
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LGA: Northern Beaches Council (West Side) |
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Northern Boundary: Smiths Creek. |
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Eastern Boundary: Mona Vale Road, Forest Way, Morgan Road, Oxford Falls Road and Frenchs Forest. |
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Western Boundary: Cowan Creek, Middle Harbour Creek and Garigal National Park. |
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*Lower Northern Beaches (Manly-Warringah) |
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Suburb examples: Balgowlah, Brookvale, Dee Why, Narrabeen |
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Postcodes: 2092 to 2097 and 2099 to 2101 |
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Number of suburbs: 23 |
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LGA: Northern Beaches Council (South-East End) |
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Northern Boundary: South Creek and Narrabeen Lagoon. |
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Western Boundary: Oxford Falls Road and Frenchs Forest. |
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*Upper Northern Beaches (Pittwater) |
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Suburb examples: Mona Vale, Avalon Beach, Palm Beach |
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Postcodes: 2101 to 2108 |
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Number of suburbs: 14 |
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LGA: Northern Beaches Council (North-East End) |
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Northern Boundary: Pittwater and Broken Bay. |
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Western Boundary: Mccarrs Creek and Wirreanda Creek. |
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Southern Boundary: South Creek and Narrabeen Lagoon. |
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===Western Sydney=== |
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*Inner West (Marrickville-Leichhardt) |
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Suburb examples: Glebe, Drummoyne, Ashfield, Burwood |
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Postcodes: 2006, 2037 to 2050, 2129 to 2140, 2193, 2203 and 2204 |
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Number of suburbs: 52 |
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LGA: Inner West Council, Burwood Council, City of Canada Bay, Strathfield Council (North-East End), City of Sydney (West Side), Canterbury-Bankstown Council (North-East End) |
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Northern Boundary: Parramatta River. |
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Eastern Boundary: Alexandra Canal, Erskineville, Camperdown and Glebe. |
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Western Boundary: Centenary Drive and Homebush Bay Drive. |
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Southern Boundary: Cooks River. |
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*Inner South-West (Canterbury-Greenacre) |
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Suburb examples: Earlwood, Campsie, Roselands, Punchbowl |
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Postcodes: 2136, 2190, 2196, 2206 and 2208 to 2210 |
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Number of suburbs: 17 |
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LGA: Canterbury-Bankstown Council (South-East Side), Strathfield Council (South End) |
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Northern Boundary: Cooks River. |
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Western Boundary: Fairford Road, Stacey Street, Hume Highway and Salt Pan Creek. |
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Southern Boundary: Wolli Creek and M5. |
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*Western Suburbs (Parramatta-Blacktown) |
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Suburb examples: Auburn, Fairfield, Westmead, Seven Hills |
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Postcodes: 2127, 2128, 2140 to 2148, 2150, 2160 to 2165, 2176, 2763, 2766 and 2767 |
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Number of suburbs: 67 |
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LGA: Strathfield Council (North-West End), Canterbury-Bankstown Council (North-West End), Fairfield City Council (North-East End), Cumberland City Council, City of Parramatta (South End), Blacktown City Council (South-East End) |
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Northern Boundary: Parramatta River, Toongabbie Creek, Old Windsor Road and M7. |
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Eastern Boundary: Centenary Drive and Homebush Bay Drive. |
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Western Boundary: Western Sydney Parklands. |
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Southern Boundary: T3 Train Line, Orphan School Creek, Clear Paddock Creek and Elizabeth Drive |
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*South-Western Suburbs (Bankstown-Liverpool) |
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Suburb examples: Yagoona, Padstow, Cabramatta, Casula |
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Postcodes: 2143, 2162, 2163, 2166, 2168, 2170 to 2174, 2176, 2177, 2190 and 2197 to 2214 |
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Number of suburbs: 61 |
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LGA: Canterbury-Bankstown Council (South-West End), Liverpool City Council (North-East End), Fairfield City Council (South End), Sutherland Shire Council (North-West End) |
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Northern Boundary: T3 Train Line, Orphan School Creek, Clear Paddock Creek and Elizabeth Drive |
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Eastern Boundary: Fairford Road, Stacey Street, Hume Highway and Salt Pan Creek. |
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Western Boundary: Western Sydney Parklands. |
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Southern Boundary: Holsworthy and Macarthur. |
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*North-Western Suburbs (North Parramatta) |
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Suburb examples: Northmead, North Rocks, Rydalmere |
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Postcodes: 2146, 2214 to 2118 and 2150 to 2153 |
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Number of suburbs: 14 |
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LGA: City of Parramatta (North-West Side) |
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Northern Boundary: Hills Motorway. |
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Eastern Boundary: Pennant Hills Road, Marsden Road and Wharf Road. |
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Western Boundary: Old Windsor Road. |
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Southern Boundary: Parramatta River. |
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*Hills District (Baulkham Hills-Cherrybrook) |
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Suburb examples: Castle Hill, Norwest, Kellyville, Beaumont Hills |
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Postcodes: 2125, 2126, 2153 to 2156 and 2158 |
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Number of suburbs: 12 |
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LGA: The Hills Shire (South End), Hornsby Shire Council (South-West End) |
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Northern Boundary: Kenthurst |
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Eastern Boundary: Berowra Creek and Pennant Hills Road. |
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Western Boundary: Old Windsor Road |
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Southern Boundary: Hills Motorway |
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*Outer West (Penrith-Mount Druitt) |
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Suburb examples: Rooty Hill, St Marys, Kingswood |
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Postcodes: 2745, 2747 to 2750, 2759 to 2761, 2766 and 2770 |
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Number of suburbs: 42 |
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LGA: Blacktown City Council (South-West End), Penrith City Council (Centre) |
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Eastern Boundary: Eastern Creek. |
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Western Boundary: Nepean River. |
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*Outer South-West (Macarthur) |
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Suburb examples: Campbelltown, Gregory Hills, Narellan |
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Postcodes: 2167, 2179, 2557 to 2560, 2564 to 2567 and 2570 |
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Number of suburbs: 42 |
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LGA: Camden Council (South-East End), Campbelltown City Council (North-West End) |
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Northern Boundary: Liverpool City Council |
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Eastern Boundary: Georges River. |
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Western Boundary: Cobbitty |
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Southern Boundary: Nepean River and Gilead. |
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*Outer North-West (The Ponds) |
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Suburb examples: Glenwood, Schofields, Marsden Park |
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Postcodes: 2155, 2761 to 2763, 2765, 2768 and 2769 |
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Number of suburbs: 18 |
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LGA: Blacktown City Council (North End) |
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Northern Boundary: The Hawkesbury |
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Eastern Boundary: Old Windsor Road |
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Western Boundary: Berkshire Park |
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Southern Boundary: M7 |
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===Greater Sydney Surrounds=== |
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* Central Coast |
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* Hawkesbury |
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* Blue Mountains |
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* Wollongong |
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While some may detest and argue that the new proposed map structure is 'original research' and inaccurate my response is that the existing map is far more inaccurate and mostly based off original research while this new proposed scheme is a more reliable eclectic idea based off government maps along with titles based off accurate direction from Sydney CBD. If original research is truly not allowed on Wikipedia then changing the existing map structure still should be addressed as this map should then be converted to either council LGA regions or Australian Bureau of Statistics' Regions as only then would the map be truly accurately and reliably sourced. In its current form it is neither. |
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As I understand Wikipedia acts on consensus so I'm going to leave this here for experienced, responsible, fair, unbiased and attentive editors to review and decide on what action to take regarding the current maps veracity. While this new scheme may not be favoured, a change to the map's accuracy is definitely in need. I trust Wikipedia's consensus. |
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Thank you to whoever has taken the time to read this. [[Special:Contributions/2405:6E00:48F:E430:28B6:6BC7:B462:95ED|2405:6E00:48F:E430:28B6:6BC7:B462:95ED]] ([[User talk:2405:6E00:48F:E430:28B6:6BC7:B462:95ED|talk]]) 09:50, 18 July 2023 (UTC) |
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Latest revision as of 16:38, 22 May 2024
 | This template was considered for deletion on 2008 December 2. The result of the discussion was "no consensus". |
This template is an accurate depiction of Sydney regions and is used by many region articles. It should not be deleted. J Bar (talk) 04:51, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
Eastern Suburbs
[edit]This template should agree with existing maps of Sydney. In particular, existing government maps generally consider the Eastern Suburbs to extend all the way south to La Perouse Daceyvillain (talk) 08:45, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
- Please see discussion at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/South-Eastern_Sydney, in particular, the article is being considered for deletion. It is not appropriate to add it to this map. Daceyvillain (talk) 08:50, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
- Aside from your confounding strong disdain towards the south-east and whether or not it should be on the map. I did add useful accurate regions to the map which didn't exist before. Unfortunately Daceyvillain has taken a strong disliking towards anything I do at this point. 2405:6E00:289:B4FC:A535:DF74:821E:5DAB (talk) 08:55, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
- You have been previously told to gain consensus first before making these changes. You have a strong crusade for including South East Sydney on Wikipedia and have failed to discuss/defend your position on the deletion discussion. Secondly you should really create an WP:ACCOUNT rather than switching IP addresses every few days. LibStar (talk) 08:59, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
- I feel very attacked for trying to improve accuracy. I understand you're trying to follow the rules on Wikipedia but really at the end of the day all the information I'm adding is really not making Wikipedia worse. I guess no one likes a vigilante. 2405:6E00:289:B4FC:A535:DF74:821E:5DAB (talk) 09:03, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
- you have failed to respond to my points. Why the reluctance to discuss on the deletion page where there is no reliable sources defining the South Eastern Suburbs? Why the reluctance to create an account? LibStar (talk) 09:06, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
- Perhaps you should read everything from my perspective and imagine your own messages were someone speaking to you. Would you really bother creating an account if this is the treatment you get from other Wikipedia editors when you're only trying to improve Wikipedia's content. 2405:6E00:289:B4FC:A535:DF74:821E:5DAB (talk) 09:10, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
- Again you fail to answer the questions, they are not hard. Wikipedia works on WP:CONSENSUS. Something you fail to do. LibStar (talk) 09:13, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
- I feel we could end this silly debate diplomatically and in a civilized way but I keep getting shut down. I've even acknowledged that the south-east is part of the Eastern Suburbs in the larger sense because at the end of the day the region isn't that large and cutting it in half makes them both like micro regions. I was the one who wrote that the south-east is a sub-region of the eastern suburbs. The point I'm trying to make which I keep getting dismissed about is that the two regions are significantly different, the contrast is actually very large. I know this because I've lived in the region my whole life and while the 'Eastern Suburbs' may say it's Watsons Bay to La Perouse I know that putting those two ends in one category is kind of humorous. If you ask any person from the east if Matraville and Double Bay are both the 'Eastern Suburbs' they'd laugh because the thought of comparing those two suburbs and putting them in the same category is actually a very funny thought. If you lived in the area you'd understand and agree that while it may all be the 'Eastern Suburbs' the south-east is very different to the rest of the east. Again none of this means much to you because you just want statistics, links, references, boundaries, maps etc but when it comes to cultural, demographic and socioeconomic differences between areas if you live it you see it more than it could ever be on paper. Once again I'm only adding accuracy and real life experience to better improve information. I'm not about to start editing regions of cities I have no experience living in. I've provided you with all the reasons why the areas are different already and the list was long but it's never good enough so why would I keep trying to argue with a brick wall and even bother making an account over something so trivial. I'm not vandalizing Wikipedia and I don't believe the south-east is better than the rest of the east I just know they're completely different areas where residents in each don't really travel to the other and I'm just sharing that knowledge. 2405:6E00:289:B4FC:A535:DF74:821E:5DAB (talk) 09:30, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
- Wikipedia is based on reliable sources, not hearsay, personal opinion, or knowledge because you live in that area, that is considered original research. For weeks, you have been stubbornly adding in south east Sydney to suburbs without consensus or reliable sources and actually edit warring and trying to avoid scrutiny by changing IPs and a total avoidance to creating an account. LibStar (talk) 09:40, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
- and once again you're attacking me thinking I'm intentionally doing something to Wikipedia's demise and trying to spite you so what's the point in trying to prove myself. 2405:6E00:289:B4FC:A535:DF74:821E:5DAB (talk) 09:44, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
- I'm not attacking you merely pointing out how you have not abided by Wikipedia policy. Please read WP:CONSENSUS, WP:SPA and reliable sources. LibStar (talk) 09:52, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
- It is OK if different types of people live in the same area. The boundaries of the Eastern Suburbs don't need to be redefined to include only one type of people.
- You keep picking on Matraville for some reason - do you know that the Eastern Suburbs Crematorium was opened in Matraville in 1938?
- https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/239986573
- That area of Matraville is now called the Eastern Suburbs Memorial Park
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Suburbs_Memorial_Park Daceyvillain (talk) 03:17, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
- Good pick up. But according to anon IP it must be called "South Eastern Sydney Memorial Park"! LibStar (talk) 03:26, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
- https://www.randwick.nsw.gov.au/about-us/news/news-items/2022/june/community-celebrates-as-new-laws-pass-prohibiting-matraville-incinerator
- Well according to that article by the government site of City of Randwick it's a south-eastern Sydney suburb. But hey what do I know when a suburb like Matraville is so obviously in the same area as a suburb like Point Piper, silly me.
- I guess someone better tell these waste management businesses in Botany and Matraville that the south-east doesn't exist either, silly them.
- https://wanless.com.au/contact/botany-sydney-2019/
- https://www.whitepages.com.au/south-east-sydney-waste-tranfr-12345514/matraville-nsw-12345515B 203.49.228.129 (talk) 03:34, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
- business listings don't confirm a boundary or which suburbs make up the "south east region". Where is a definitive map of the south east published in a reliable source?
- Comment From an official report of Council, https://www.woollahra.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0010/132769/Eastern_Suburbs_Economic_Profile_2013.pdf
- This economic profile is a joint initiative of Randwick City Council, Waverley Municipal Council and
- Woollahra Municipal Council as local government authorities located in the Eastern Suburbs sub-region
- of the Sydney Metropolitan area.
- The Eastern Suburbs study area is a sub-region of the wider Sydney metropolitan area, located east and
- south-east of the Sydney Central Business District. The Australian Bureau of Statistics identifies the
- Eastern Suburbs as an SA3 statistical subdivision that includes the local government areas of Waverley,
- Woollahra and Randwick.
- The Eastern Suburbs extends from the peninsula of South Head at Watsons Bay in the north to
- La Perouse on Botany Bay in the south. The northern part of the Eastern Suburbs comprises the affluent
- suburbs of Vaucluse, Rose Bay, Darling Point, Dover Heights, Double Bay, Point Piper, Watsons Bay, and
- Bellevue Hill. Centrally located to the Eastern Suburbs is Centennial Park, surrounded by the suburbs of
- Woollahra, Paddington, Bondi Junction, Queens Park, Randwick, Kensington, Clovelly and Coogee. To the
- south, the area includes suburbs such as Maroubra, Matraville, Malabar, Little Bay and La Perouse.
- In total, the Eastern Suburbs covers an area of around 58 square kilometres, incorporating 34 suburbs.
- The Eastern Suburbs features an extensive coastline, including some of Sydney’s most popular and best known beaches such as Bondi, Tamarama, Bronte, Clovelly, Coogee, Maroubra, Malabar, Little Bay and
- La Perouse. The region also borders Sydney Harbour to the north and Botany Bay to the south.
- LibStar (talk) 03:44, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
- Better tell the Australian Bureau of Statistics they're showing the Eastern suburbs as wrong. https://abs.gov.au/census/find-census-data/quickstats/2021/118 LibStar (talk) 03:49, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
- So that report describes the suburbs within Woollahra Council as 'affluent' and goes onto to say that Maroubra, Matraville, Malabar, Little Bay and La Perouse are in the south. Sounds like everything I've been saying is included in an official report, that definitely couldn't be possible considering I've been conducting incorrect 'original research'. Better google some more references that say Matraville is part of the 'Eastern Suburbs' and not the south... 203.49.228.129 (talk) 03:56, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
- Better rename South Sydney High School to South Eastern Sydney High School to suit your argument. Haha. LibStar (talk) 03:58, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
- Just a school in Maroubra having the title of 'south' is enough for me. haha. 203.49.228.129 (talk) 04:00, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
- If Randwick was going to merge with Waverley wouldn't it be right to call it "Eastern and South Eastern Suburbs Council". After all, Randwick Council residents don't shop at Westfield Bondi do they? https://www.randwick.nsw.gov.au/about-us/news/news-items/2015/may/randwick-citys-future-position-announced LibStar (talk) 04:03, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
- Give it time and the three of them will merge with City of Sydney to be the inner-city council of Sydney. But yes, residents of Matraville don't shop at Westfield Bondi if that's your question. 203.49.228.129 (talk) 04:08, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
- and if you live at Clovelly or Coogee you don't go to Bondi? LibStar (talk) 04:09, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
- page 10 of this. https://www.randwick.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0020/327170/State-of-our-City-Report-2021-web.pdf "Our local government area covers 37.42 square kilometres (3,742 hectares) and includes the 13 suburbs of Chifley, Clovelly, Coogee, Kensington, Kingsford, La Perouse, Little Bay, Malabar, Maroubra, Matraville, Philip Bay, Randwick and South Coogee. It is located in the eastern suburbs of Sydney". Someone at Council better get the sack for not calling in South Eastern Sydney! LibStar (talk) 04:08, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
- page 11 of official annual report. https://www.randwick.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0007/357397/2021-22-Annual-Report.PDF "Randwick City is located in the eastern suburbs of Sydney, bounded by Waverley Council to the north, the Pacific Ocean to the east, Botany Bay to the south and the City of Sydney and Bayside councils to the west." LibStar (talk) 04:10, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
- Give it time and the three of them will merge with City of Sydney to be the inner-city council of Sydney. But yes, residents of Matraville don't shop at Westfield Bondi if that's your question. 203.49.228.129 (talk) 04:08, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
- Here is what the report from those councils actually says
- "The Eastern Suburbs extends from the peninsula of South Head at Watsons Bay in the north to La Perouse on Botany Bay in the south.
- The northern part of the Eastern Suburbs comprises the affluent suburbs of Vaucluse, Rose Bay, Darling Point, Dover Heights, Double Bay, Point Piper, Watsons Bay, and Bellevue Hill.
- Centrally located to the Eastern Suburbs is Centennial Park, surrounded by the suburbs of Woollahra, Paddington, Bondi Junction, Queens Park, Randwick, Kensington, Clovelly and Coogee.
- To the south, the area includes suburbs such as Maroubra, Matraville, Malabar, Little Bay and La Perouse."
- i.e.
- The report divides the Eastern Suburbs into a northern part, a central part, and a southern part for ease of description
- But the report does not pretend that only the northern part is the actual Eastern Suburbs. Which is what you have been falsely claiming. Daceyvillain (talk) 04:09, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
- it does not say "South eastern Sydney" LibStar (talk) 04:11, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
- Well I wouldn't say it's a false claim when you can check any map and see which suburbs are south-east of the CBD and which suburbs are actually east. East is generally to the right. 203.49.228.129 (talk) 04:12, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
- Re: maps
- We've shown you many government maps which clearly illustrate the Eastern Suburbs, but you have provided zero maps to illustrate "South Eastern Sydney" - besides a map which you tried to create yourself (this page).
- At this point, I think we should delete/merge the South Eastern Sydney page and move on.
- Wikipedia is based about facts, sources, citations, ..., but you are only offering your opinion. Daceyvillain (talk) 04:19, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
- hey Daceyvillian, but if a couple of waste management companies say they're in the south east, then surely there must be a defined distinct south eastern region? People at Randwick Council and Australia Bureau of Statistics should get the sack for promoting an all encompassing Eastern Suburbs region down to La Perouse. LibStar (talk) 04:19, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
- Someone should tell the people buying $10-$15m houses in South Coogee and Maroubra, or the people buying $4-6m houses in Little Bay and La Perouse, that they are living in non-affluent areas. Daceyvillain (talk) 04:22, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
- People of Bondi should be banned from driving on Anzac Parade or going to Prince of Wales Hospital. It should be like East and West Germany, they are different people and must be separated. LibStar (talk) 04:27, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
- Sounds like you better contact Woollahra council and tell them that Double Bay is just as affluent as Maroubra, although you may hear cries of laughter from their end.
- But what I've really learnt from you two is that someone from NSW transport better be sentenced to life for creating the 'CBD and south east light rail' and not calling it the CBD and 'Eastern Subrubs' light rail. Clearly neither LibStar nor Daceyvillain sent them the memo that the south-east doesn't exist, silly them. 203.49.228.129 (talk) 04:26, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
- where is the official map showing south eastern Sydney? LibStar (talk) 04:28, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
- and people unlike in Greater Western Sydney are not allowed to have a region of more than 1 NRL club. LibStar (talk) 04:28, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
- Oh no, someone in Mount Druitt is not earning the same as someone living in Parramatta and they follow different NRL teams and drive on different roads!! Yet they both live in Greater Western Sydney!! LibStar (talk) 04:38, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
- By your logic we should also sentence the people who designed the Eastern Suburbs Railway to originally terminate at Kingsford/Daceyville?
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Suburbs_railway_line
- It isn't clear how much thought was given to the naming of the new light rail. Probably very little thought. One of the stops is named after a private leagues club. Daceyvillain (talk) 04:37, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
- Ohhhh, do you mean the eastern suburbs railway which doesn't terminate at Kingsford nor Daceyville but actually goes through Kings Cross and Edgecliff terminating at Bondi Junction? That One? 203.49.228.129 (talk) 04:41, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
- Did you even look at the page? It was designed to terminate at Kingsford/Daceyville but they had to cut it short due to budget cuts.
- (They also cancelled the station at Woollahra - does that mean Woollahra isn't in the Eastern Suburbs?) Daceyvillain (talk) 04:42, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
- The railway didn't go to Daceyville/Kingsford because it would serve the different race of South Eastern Sydney people. Much like how the Berlin Wall separated 2 different demographics. LibStar (talk) 05:02, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
- Made me laugh, but Robert Moses really did do this sort of thing in New York... it sounds like 203.49.228.129 could have similar aspirations...
- https://www.npr.org/2020/07/05/887386869/how-transportation-racism-shaped-america Daceyvillain (talk) 05:18, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
- That's a real interesting article. LibStar (talk) 05:22, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
- I was thinking that cars from South Eastern Sydney shouldn't be allowed to visit Bondi westfield, Bondi Beach etc. , perhaps we can make special number plates for South Eastern Sydney residents. Also this week's NRL game between Rabbitohs and Roosters should not go ahead as residents of each area shouldn't mix. It's a recipe for a disaster. LibStar (talk) 05:38, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
- maybe we could modify this number plate. https://www.myplates.com.au/#/plate-summary/SS LibStar (talk) 05:41, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
- The game is certainly going to be a receipe for disaster with a maelstrom of Matraville and Woollahra residents who previously wouldn't have come into contact with each other. I only hope the stadium is left in one piece.
- The residents of Randwick, Kingsford and Kensington should be told not to catch the light rail to the game however as it has incorrectly defined their suburbs as south eastern by the NSW Government. A Shameful mistake on their end, much like naming a stop after a juniors leagues club.
- https://www.transport.nsw.gov.au/projects/current-projects/cbd-and-south-east-light-rail
- 'Sydney’s new CBD and South East Light Rail plays a key role in enabling the city’s transport future by transporting thousands of customers between the CBD and Randwick or Kingsford in the South Eastern suburbs.' 203.49.228.129 (talk) 06:01, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
- The residents of Randwick, Kingsford and Kensington are still yet to see an official map showing South Eastern Sydney. But by forcing it into several Wikipedia articles, they hope it will be adopted officially despite Randwick Council annual report saying otherwise. LibStar (talk) 06:05, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
- It's funny years ago I was on the other side of this argument defending the fact that the eastern suburbs encompasses the entire region while I'd have people telling me otherwise and as I got older I started to realise that there was a contrast and distinction between the areas and how strong that contrast actually is.
- Back to what you were saying about people of Coogee and Clovelly shopping at Westfield Bondi. I will say no resident in Woollahra and Waverley council shops at Westfield Eastgardens nor would they visit La Perouse recreationally even if they're from Queens Park or Bronte at the bottom of the region. When you condescendingly mentioned that Anzac Pde should be off limits to those residents in Woollahra and Waverley Council, it's something I would sarcastically say when people in the upper eastern suburbs would say they don't shop and/or have never been to Westfield Eastgardens. Like 'oh is Eastgardens too far south for you?' or 'is Eastgardens out of your area?', it would be such a tragedy if someone from Bronte would have to travel 15-20 Minutes to Eastgardens.
- I experienced this a lot when I Worked in Westfield Bondi and literally no one would ever be willing to drive to Eastgardens to get something in stock there. The responses I'd often get is 'That's near the Airport/Maroubra, it's quite far. I'm not driving there' and some people didn't even know where it was. 2405:6E00:289:B4FC:B013:7BAF:F32A:A32E (talk) 07:40, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
- Your anecdotal evidence is not considered a reliable source. LibStar (talk) 08:23, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
- You take everything too seriously. I'm speaking to you like a human being trying to be civilized not trying to prove anything at this point if I'm honest. Just because we're looking at something from a different angle doesn't mean we have to be at each other's throats. 2405:6E00:289:B4FC:B013:7BAF:F32A:A32E (talk) 08:25, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
- Your anecdotal evidence is not considered a reliable source. LibStar (talk) 08:23, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
- The residents of Randwick, Kingsford and Kensington are still yet to see an official map showing South Eastern Sydney. But by forcing it into several Wikipedia articles, they hope it will be adopted officially despite Randwick Council annual report saying otherwise. LibStar (talk) 06:05, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
- maybe we could modify this number plate. https://www.myplates.com.au/#/plate-summary/SS LibStar (talk) 05:41, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
- I was thinking that cars from South Eastern Sydney shouldn't be allowed to visit Bondi westfield, Bondi Beach etc. , perhaps we can make special number plates for South Eastern Sydney residents. Also this week's NRL game between Rabbitohs and Roosters should not go ahead as residents of each area shouldn't mix. It's a recipe for a disaster. LibStar (talk) 05:38, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
- That's a real interesting article. LibStar (talk) 05:22, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
- The railway didn't go to Daceyville/Kingsford because it would serve the different race of South Eastern Sydney people. Much like how the Berlin Wall separated 2 different demographics. LibStar (talk) 05:02, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
- Ohhhh, do you mean the eastern suburbs railway which doesn't terminate at Kingsford nor Daceyville but actually goes through Kings Cross and Edgecliff terminating at Bondi Junction? That One? 203.49.228.129 (talk) 04:41, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
- Someone should tell the people buying $10-$15m houses in South Coogee and Maroubra, or the people buying $4-6m houses in Little Bay and La Perouse, that they are living in non-affluent areas. Daceyvillain (talk) 04:22, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
- Better rename South Sydney High School to South Eastern Sydney High School to suit your argument. Haha. LibStar (talk) 03:58, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
- business listings don't confirm a boundary or which suburbs make up the "south east region". Where is a definitive map of the south east published in a reliable source?
- Good pick up. But according to anon IP it must be called "South Eastern Sydney Memorial Park"! LibStar (talk) 03:26, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
- and once again you're attacking me thinking I'm intentionally doing something to Wikipedia's demise and trying to spite you so what's the point in trying to prove myself. 2405:6E00:289:B4FC:A535:DF74:821E:5DAB (talk) 09:44, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
- Wikipedia is based on reliable sources, not hearsay, personal opinion, or knowledge because you live in that area, that is considered original research. For weeks, you have been stubbornly adding in south east Sydney to suburbs without consensus or reliable sources and actually edit warring and trying to avoid scrutiny by changing IPs and a total avoidance to creating an account. LibStar (talk) 09:40, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
- I feel we could end this silly debate diplomatically and in a civilized way but I keep getting shut down. I've even acknowledged that the south-east is part of the Eastern Suburbs in the larger sense because at the end of the day the region isn't that large and cutting it in half makes them both like micro regions. I was the one who wrote that the south-east is a sub-region of the eastern suburbs. The point I'm trying to make which I keep getting dismissed about is that the two regions are significantly different, the contrast is actually very large. I know this because I've lived in the region my whole life and while the 'Eastern Suburbs' may say it's Watsons Bay to La Perouse I know that putting those two ends in one category is kind of humorous. If you ask any person from the east if Matraville and Double Bay are both the 'Eastern Suburbs' they'd laugh because the thought of comparing those two suburbs and putting them in the same category is actually a very funny thought. If you lived in the area you'd understand and agree that while it may all be the 'Eastern Suburbs' the south-east is very different to the rest of the east. Again none of this means much to you because you just want statistics, links, references, boundaries, maps etc but when it comes to cultural, demographic and socioeconomic differences between areas if you live it you see it more than it could ever be on paper. Once again I'm only adding accuracy and real life experience to better improve information. I'm not about to start editing regions of cities I have no experience living in. I've provided you with all the reasons why the areas are different already and the list was long but it's never good enough so why would I keep trying to argue with a brick wall and even bother making an account over something so trivial. I'm not vandalizing Wikipedia and I don't believe the south-east is better than the rest of the east I just know they're completely different areas where residents in each don't really travel to the other and I'm just sharing that knowledge. 2405:6E00:289:B4FC:A535:DF74:821E:5DAB (talk) 09:30, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
- Again you fail to answer the questions, they are not hard. Wikipedia works on WP:CONSENSUS. Something you fail to do. LibStar (talk) 09:13, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
- Perhaps you should read everything from my perspective and imagine your own messages were someone speaking to you. Would you really bother creating an account if this is the treatment you get from other Wikipedia editors when you're only trying to improve Wikipedia's content. 2405:6E00:289:B4FC:A535:DF74:821E:5DAB (talk) 09:10, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
- you have failed to respond to my points. Why the reluctance to discuss on the deletion page where there is no reliable sources defining the South Eastern Suburbs? Why the reluctance to create an account? LibStar (talk) 09:06, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
- I feel very attacked for trying to improve accuracy. I understand you're trying to follow the rules on Wikipedia but really at the end of the day all the information I'm adding is really not making Wikipedia worse. I guess no one likes a vigilante. 2405:6E00:289:B4FC:A535:DF74:821E:5DAB (talk) 09:03, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
- You have been previously told to gain consensus first before making these changes. You have a strong crusade for including South East Sydney on Wikipedia and have failed to discuss/defend your position on the deletion discussion. Secondly you should really create an WP:ACCOUNT rather than switching IP addresses every few days. LibStar (talk) 08:59, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
- Aside from your confounding strong disdain towards the south-east and whether or not it should be on the map. I did add useful accurate regions to the map which didn't exist before. Unfortunately Daceyvillain has taken a strong disliking towards anything I do at this point. 2405:6E00:289:B4FC:A535:DF74:821E:5DAB (talk) 08:55, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
South-Eastern Sydney
[edit]As I understand from previous discussions here is that there was a former south-east article of Sydney deleted and merged with the larger article of Sydney's Eastern Suburbs which apparently got south-east sydney removed from this map. While perhaps the region isn't referenced enough to warrant its own article, on this Sydney template map acknowledging this part of Sydney is still useful as it is acknowledged in government sources (mostly transport and council LGA) to be somewhat different from other parts of the Eastern Suburbs. I don't understand why it's been a touchy topic. From my understanding south-east Sydney is centred around the Randwick LGA. South-Western Sydney is part of Greater Western Sydney but it's still acknowledged individually in its own respect. I've done a lot of research on Sydney regions and the various ways they get divided and I found these reliable sources (mostly government sources) that are dedicated to south-east Sydney giving the impression that it does exist in its own form in some way to warrant an inclusion on the map. I'm not interested however in carrying on any heated debates that previously went on regarding this topic. This is just what I found:
- https://abs.gov.au/census/find-census-data/community-profiles/2021/11802
- https://www.transport.nsw.gov.au/projects/current-projects/cbd-and-south-east-light-rail
- https://www.linkt.com.au/using-toll-roads/about-sydney-toll-roads/eastern-distributor/sydney
- https://www.sgsep.com.au/projects/south-east-sydney-transport-strategy
- https://sgsep.com.au/assets/main/SES_Transport_Strategy_low-res.pdf
- https://www.future.transport.nsw.gov.au/future-transport-plans/south-east-sydney-transport-strategy
- https://transportnsw.info/document/5669/south_east_network_map_05122021.pdf
- https://profile.id.com.au/randwick/about
- https://economy.id.com.au/randwick/infrastructure
- https://dictionaryofsydney.org/place/randwick_local_government_area
- https://dictionaryofsydney.org/entry/randwick
- https://profile.id.com.au/baysidensw/about
- https://www.yourcouncil.nsw.gov.au/council-data/bayside-1674451854/
- https://dictionaryofsydney.org/place/botany_bay_local_government_area
- https://www.sydney.com/destinations/sydney/sydney-east/la-perouse
- https://www.alp.org.au/our-people/our-people/matt-thistlethwaite/
- https://www.nswports.com.au/community
- https://www.scentregroup.com/our-customers/westfield-destinations/westfield-eastgardens
- https://www.unswtouchfootball.org.au/about-our-club/
- https://www.rabbitohs.com.au/juniorleague/souths-east-oztag/
- https://www.nsw.gov.au/youthweek/events/south-east-block-party-maroubra
- https://www.randwick.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0006/347127/Randwick-Social-Study.pdf
- https://www.randwick.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0007/256849/Appendix-G-Economic-Benefits-Report.pdf
- https://www.randwick.nsw.gov.au/about-us/news/news-items/2022/june/community-celebrates-as-new-laws-pass-prohibiting-matraville-incinerator
- https://www.govnews.com.au/randwick-opening-up-as-new-centre-of-sydney-innovation/
- https://www.randwick.nsw.gov.au/about-us/news/news-items/2017/december/randwick-council-voices-opposition-to-privatisation-of-inner-west-bus-services
- https://www.randwick.nsw.gov.au/facilities-and-recreation/sports-fields/list-of-sports-fields/pioneers-park-sportsfields
Whatever consensus concludes regarding what regions stay on this map, the coding for the spaced out complete map is:
I trust Wikipedia consensus. 2405:6E00:48F:E430:70FF:6E85:406F:A524 (talk) 09:42, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
- Can you please confirm that you have not edited under another IP? As a "new" editor your edits are very detailed. LibStar (talk) 23:44, 17 July 2023 (UTC)