Jump to content

Talk:Denali–Mount McKinley naming dispute: Difference between revisions

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Browse history interactively
← Previous edit
Content deleted Content added
VisualWikitext
page has never been archived/set up one-click for future use
Tag: Replaced
 
(35 intermediate revisions by 17 users not shown)
Line 1: Line 1:
{{WikiProject banner shell|class=C|1=
{{ITN talk|August 31|2015}}
{{WikiProject Alaska|importance=mid}}
{{WikiProjectBannerShell|1=
{{WikiProject Alaska|class=C|importance=mid}}
{{WikiProject Mountains|importance=mid}}
{{WikiProject Mountains|class=C|b1=no|b2=yes|b3=yes|b4=yes|b5=yes|b6=yes|importance=mid}}
{{WikiProject Ohio|importance=}}
{{WikiProject Ohio|class=C|importance=}}
{{WikiProject U.S. Congress|importance=|subject=events}}
{{WikiProject U.S. Congress|class=C|importance=|subject=events}}
}}
}}
{{ITN talk|August 31|2015}}

{{Contentious topics/talk notice|ap|long}}

{{archive basics|counter=2}}

{{archives}}
==About that title...==
Why is this page called "Denali naming dispute" as opposed to "Mt. McKinley naming dispute"?

Or we could call it "Denali/Densmore's Peak/Doleika/Mt. McKinley/Tenada/Traleika/Tschigmit naming dispute"... <smile>

This could be as much fun as the [[Talk:Gdansk/Vote|Gdansk/Danzig naming dispute]]! --[[Special:Contributions/76.245.60.10|76.245.60.10]] ([[User talk:76.245.60.10|talk]]) 22:23, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

Because Denali is the more popular name among climbers and visitors to the Park. The only ones who call it McKinley are people who have only read about it in a book and have never been there. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/198.202.200.132|198.202.200.132]] ([[User talk:198.202.200.132|talk]]) 16:45, 15 December 2011 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

I agree with the first comment. To be honest, if there is truly a dispute, to be fair, this article should be titled 'Denali/McKinley Naming Dispute.' I see nothing wrong in properly naming it after the actual dispute. And frankly, no, the majority of people - even some mountaineers - call it McKinley. So let's keep the article neutral (ala Wiki standards) and change the name of the article.
[[Special:Contributions/24.29.30.173|24.29.30.173]] ([[User talk:24.29.30.173|talk]]) 02:26, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

"Because Denali is the more popular name among climbers and visitors to the Park. The only ones who call it McKinley are people who have only read about it in a book and have never been there." Nonsense. I've been there. I live nearby, and I call it McKinley. [[Special:Contributions/158.145.224.112|158.145.224.112]] ([[User talk:158.145.224.112|talk]]) 00:38, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

==Requested move 07 October 2014==
<div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 2em 0 0 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;"><!-- Template:RM top -->
:''The following is a closed discussion of a [[WP:requested moves|requested move]]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a [[Wikipedia:move review|move review]]. No further edits should be made to this section. ''

The result of the move request was: '''move''' the page to [[Denali–Mount McKinley naming dispute]], per the discussion below. [[User:Dekimasu|Dekimasu]]<small>[[User talk:Dekimasu|よ!]]</small> 08:28, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

----

[[:Denali naming dispute]] → {{no redirect|Denali/Mount McKinley naming dispute}} – As this is an article about a naming dispute, it would probably be best to include both names in the title in order to avoid taking sides. I would move this page myself, but I don't have that power as an anonymous editor, and don't particularly feel like making an account just for this. Additionally, as this is an article about a naming dispute, I have reason to believe that such a move could be considered controversial. [[Special:Contributions/69.45.35.62|69.45.35.62]] ([[User talk:69.45.35.62|talk]]) 16:22, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

===Survey===
:''Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with'' <code><nowiki>*'''Support'''</nowiki></code> ''or'' <code><nowiki>*'''Oppose'''</nowiki></code>'', then sign your comment with'' <code><nowiki>~~~~</nowiki></code>''. Since [[Wikipedia:Polling is not a substitute for discussion|polling is not a substitute for discussion]], please explain your reasons, taking into account [[Wikipedia:Article titles|Wikipedia's policy on article titles]].''

*By our standards for article titles, it should be [[Denali–Mount McKinley naming dispute]], because slashes are discouraged in article titles. I would definitely support moving it to that title, to avoid framing things from one side of the debate. [[Special:Contributions/209.211.131.181|209.211.131.181]] ([[User talk:209.211.131.181|talk]]) 18:47, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

*I suppose it makes a certain sort of sense to mention both names but I don't see any pressing need to change it. Not sure what specific policy section would compel it one way or the other. I have to admit that as an Alaskan I do personally find it difficult to approach this with an unbiased perspective because I have very strong opinions on the underlying dispute. (I'm originally from Ohio, and believe me, nobody there knows or cares about this except that one congressman, but it is important to thousands and thousands of Alaskans, who always, always, call it Denali) So, I don't oppose moving it, but I also don't see any harm in leaving it as is. [[User:Beeblebrox|Beeblebrox]] ([[User talk:Beeblebrox|talk]]) 19:52, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

*'''Weak oppose''' - I'm not sure I see a pressing need to change it either, and it seems like it would create an even longer, more awkward title. The dispute is over the fact that people want to name it Denali as opposed to the status quo, so I don't really see a bias in the current title. [[User:NorthBySouthBaranof|NorthBySouthBaranof]] ([[User talk:NorthBySouthBaranof|talk]]) 22:07, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

*'''Oppose''' [[MOS:SLASH]], slashes should not be used when avoidable. [[WP:SUBPAGE]] slashed titles cause subpage problems with talk pages, and appear like subpages in the world of URLs (ie. the Internet) -- [[Special:Contributions/65.94.171.225|65.94.171.225]] ([[User talk:65.94.171.225|talk]]) 04:02, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

*'''Weak support''' (with dashes) makes sense, especially considering that we use the BGN name Mount McKinley at present; some people might only know of one of the two names. Ready to be convinced by anyone who cares… &mdash;[[User talk:Innotata|''innotata'']] 05:45, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

*It should be "Mount McKinley naming dispute." The [http://geonames.nga.mil/namesgaz/ BGN] and [http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/mount%20mckinley Merriam-Webster] both give the name as "Mount McKinley." On Highbeam for last two years, I get [http://www.highbeam.com/Search?searchTerm=%26quot%3B%26quot%3BMount%20Denali%26quot%3B 8] news stories for "Mount Denali," [http://www.highbeam.com/Search?searchTerm=%22Mount+McKinley%22 195] for "Mount McKinley." What basis is there for us to call the mountain anything other than "Mount McKinley"? [[User:Claimsworth|Claimsworth]] ([[User talk:Claimsworth|talk]]) 12:43, 10 October 2014 (UTC)
::I take it you have not actually read this article? If you had you you would find the basis for calling it what it was called before some yahoo randomly renamed it after a politician, and what all Alaskans unfailingly call it at all times. More to the point, we aren't discussing what to call the mountain itself, we are discussing what to call the article on the dispute about its name. Also, "Mount Denali" is not a good search term. It's just plain "Denali". [[User:Beeblebrox|Beeblebrox]] ([[User talk:Beeblebrox|talk]]) 19:26, 10 October 2014 (UTC)
:::The so-called [[Alaska Board of Geographic Names]] that supposedly renamed this mountian is a mighty obscure organization, that's for sure. It gets [http://www.highbeam.com/Search?searchTerm=%22Alaska+Board+of+Geographic+Names%22 zero] news stories on Highbeam. It doesn't even have its own website or Wikipedia article. Other states have only [http://apps.msl.mt.gov/Geographic_Information/Applications/GeographicNamesAdvisor/ geographic names advisors] that advise the BGN. They don't claim the authority to rename geographic features. No, "Denali" is not a good search term. It returns mostly stories about Denali National Park, Denali Highway, Denali Media Holdings, etc. etc. Alaskans certainly use the term "Mount McKinley." See ''[http://juneauempire.com/stories/063098/mckinley.html Juneau Empire]'', ''[http://www.adn.com/article/20130521/glory-or-death-await-climbers-hoping-summit-mount-mckinley Alaska Dispatch]'', or ''[http://www.newsminer.com/news/alaska_news/article_fccfd300-6d90-11e2-86e0-0019bb30f31a.html Fairbanks Daily News-Miner]''. '''Update''': The Alaska board no longer exists and the state is not currently claiming that it has the authority to rename anything: "USBGN is the final word on choice, spelling and official use of the place names in the U.S."[http://dnr.alaska.gov/parks/oha/designations/geonames.htm] [[User:Claimsworth|Claimsworth]] ([[User talk:Claimsworth|talk]]) 21:10, 10 October 2014 (UTC)
::::You still seem to be missing the point, we are not discussing the name of the mountain itself. The topic of this article is the naming ''dispute''. Numbers from search results of the individual names for the mountain are of limited utility in coming to a decision here. [[User:Beeblebrox|Beeblebrox]] ([[User talk:Beeblebrox|talk]]) 03:02, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

===Discussion===
:''Any additional comments:''
*Noting for the record that I have [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Alaska&diff=628695812&oldid=627880566 notified] WikiProject Alaska of this discussion. [[User:Beeblebrox|Beeblebrox]] ([[User talk:Beeblebrox|talk]]) 19:56, 7 October 2014 (UTC)
<hr />
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a [[WP:RM|requested move]]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a [[WP:move review|move review]]. No further edits should be made to this section.</div><!-- Template:RM bottom -->

== Guidance from Iran and Iraq? ==

[[Shatt al-Arab]] is also Avrand Rud. There's a dispute in naming for that river. [[User:Sandra opposed to terrorism|Sandra opposed to terrorism]] ([[User talk:Sandra opposed to terrorism|talk]]) 18:14, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

==Officially renamed in 1917?==
The article says the Mountain was officially renamed in 1917. It keeps being quoted in the media without any real reference and I'm wondering if anyone has any citation for this. There's a citation link mid article but the bill named the park "Mount McKinley National Park" and doesn't reference the mountain at all only park boundaries. It seems to have been used in official capacity prior, as early as 1898 from what I can find, Dept of Interior, US Geological Survey Map: http://www.historicmapworks.com/Map/US/55646/Alaska+1898+Gold+and+Coal+Fields+Map+24x29/Alaska+1898+Gold+and+Coal+Fields+Map/Alaska/
Also, there's a NY Times article saying one of the First people to summit the Mountain was appealing to the national board of place names to have the name changed from McKinley to Denali, and it predates 1917: http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9F0DE7DD163DE633A25754C1A9619C946296D6CF

==From 1975 to 2015?==

The article's lead sentence "From 1975 to 2015 there was a dispute over the name of a mountain in Alaska, the centerpiece of Denali National Park and Preserve" strikes me as somewhat POV in that is assumes that the 28 August 2015 executive order will end the dispute. The Order may well put the dispute to rest, but we won't know for some years. I propose the following alternate lead:

"In 1975 a dispute over the name of a Alaska mountain arose when the Alaska Legislature asked the US government to officially change the mountain's name from "Mount McKinley" to "Mount Denali". That mountain, the centerpiece of Denali National Park and Preserve, is the highest in North America. Forty years later, in August 2015, the Department of the Interior granted Alaska's request."

I'm going to be bold and substitute it, but I will not be upset if someone has a better way of putting it. [[User:Carl Henderson|Carl Henderson]] ([[User talk:Carl Henderson|talk]]) 19:04, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

: I ended up going with slightly different language to incorporate Muboshgu's work. [[User:Carl Henderson|Carl Henderson]] ([[User talk:Carl Henderson|talk]]) 19:05, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

==Restoring John Boehner Quote==

I think PraetorianFury is confusing "Roll Call" with another source. "Roll Call" is published by The Economist Group, along with "The Economist", and "Congressional Quarterly". As for the blog format, according to [[WP:RS]], "Some news outlets host interactive columns they call blogs, and these may be acceptable as sources so long as the writers are professional journalists or are professionals in the field on which they write and the blog is subject to the news outlet's full editorial control."

I am replacing the John Boehner with a bit more context, specifically in order not to give a POV that the 2015 name change is uncontroversial. Additionally, I believe that the opinion of the Speaker of the House on a matter of public concern—especially when it is at odds with the Executive Branch—is inherently notable.

Conversely, I don't think restoring the Regula "thinks he is a dictator" quote would gain anything, even though it's published in a presumed reliable source. It's inflammatory and Regula is no longer active in public life. [[User:Carl Henderson|Carl Henderson]] ([[User talk:Carl Henderson|talk]]) 00:24, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
:I want to restore it to the way I wrote it. Too much now of Boehner's praise of McKinley, why were the Sullivan approval and Regula "dictator" remark taken out? &ndash;&nbsp;[[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]]&nbsp;([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 00:36, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

::I thought Boehner's quote needed more context. I don't know why those Sullivan and Regula quotes were taken out. That was someone else's edit. I the removal missed the Sullivan remark. That should have gone back in. Thanks for catching it. As for Regula, I just thought it was over the top, and I didn't think had any good reason to revert the edit. [[User:Carl Henderson|Carl Henderson]] ([[User talk:Carl Henderson|talk]]) 05:52, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

:::{{ping|User:Carl Henderson}}This is from the "about" page from the Roll Call source: "CQ Roll Call provides essential intelligence and grassroots advocacy resources to take action." ''Grassroots'' and ''advocacy'' are both big warning signs when considering the reliability of sources, and the fact that it's also in a blog format does not inspire confidence. I don't have any problem with the material as is, but if you could find another source, that would resolve my concerns. [[User:PraetorianFury|PraetorianFury]] ([[User talk:PraetorianFury|talk]]) 06:54, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

:::: From what I can tell looking at the website of CQ Roll Call is that is their lobbying support services division that is separate from their news division (Congressional Quarterly, The Economist, Roll Call). The advertise those services as being "Nonpartisan insights and tools for those who lead, shape or follow public policy." I have no problem finding an additional source, though. (assuming the original content hasn't already been removed in subsequent changes). I will look for one later this afternoon. [[User:Carl Henderson|Carl Henderson]] ([[User talk:Carl Henderson|talk]]) 19:57, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

:::::Yes, I'm sure they advertise that. I would feel much better with different sources, thank you. If not for accuracy, then for longevity, so the next editor doesn't remove it down the line. [[User:PraetorianFury|PraetorianFury]] ([[User talk:PraetorianFury|talk]]) 21:21, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

== Section removed - poor reading of the source ==

I have removed the below text from the article:

''Meanwhile, Constitutional experts question the move, claiming the President of the United States of America has no Constitutional authority to decide the name of a mountain. First, they cite the fact the mountain is on federal land. Second, they recognize Congress has the power to name mountains, not the President. Third, they claim the power of Congress comes from Article IV, Section 3, giving Congress the authority to "make all needful Rules and Regulations respecting the territory and other Property belonging to the United States." They conclude that since the name McKinely was incorporated into federal statute, Obama's only authority in this matter is to either sign or veto a Congressional bill, and that he has no authority to arbitrarily change the name of a mountain, just as he has no authority to arbitrarily change any other federal law.''

Reading the original source ([http://originalismblog.typepad.com/the-originalism-blog/2015/08/does-the-president-have-the-constitutional-power-to-rename-a-mountainmichael-ramsey.html Does the President Have the Constitutional Power to Rename a Mountain?]), the above text is a fundamental misreading of it. It is correct to say, as the source does, that the president does not have ''Constitutional'' power to rename the mountain, but, as the source discusses, Constitutionally-enumerated powers are not the only ones which the president has — the executive branch also has various powers granted or delegated to it by Congress. As the source states, ''So the President's authority must come from Congress. And indeed there is something called the U.S. Board on Geographic Names that (according to its website) was "established in its present form by Public Law in 1947 to maintain uniform geographic name usage throughout the Federal Government." So I assume the Board has delegated authority to decide on the name, and the President has directed the Board to make this decision.'' This is, indeed, close to the legal mechanism by which the decision was made — a law enacted by Congress ([https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/43/364b 43 USC 364b]) permits the Secretary of the Interior to take action on geographic names under certain circumstances, and the Secretary has done so.

Nowhere in the source is found the claim that "Obama's only authority in this matter is to sign or veto a Congressional bill." Such an improper and false reading of the original source cannot be permitted to stand in a Wikipedia article. [[User:NorthBySouthBaranof|NorthBySouthBaranof]] ([[User talk:NorthBySouthBaranof|talk]]) 07:55, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
:I have rewritten the section to accurately depict the source's discussion of the Constitutional background for the president's actions — which he says were taken by authority of a Congressional delegation of power through a public law. [[User:NorthBySouthBaranof|NorthBySouthBaranof]] ([[User talk:NorthBySouthBaranof|talk]]) 08:15, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

Suggest the date given as 2975 in the first line should read 1975?

Nick <small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/37.130.249.2|37.130.249.2]] ([[User talk:37.130.249.2|talk]]) 14:49, 1 September 2015 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Does this construction violate WP:SYNTH? ==

Currently the article contains the following sentences: "Ohio Congressman Mike Turner vowed to fight the change, commenting that "I’m certain [Obama] didn’t notify President McKinley’s descendants, who find this outrageous."[33] (Both of McKinley's daughters died in early childhood, leaving no descendants.[34])" The second sentence is sourced separately from the first, and I believe the two sentences, juxtaposed in that manner, implies critics of the Denali name change are ignorant. I think that this arguably violates [[WP:SYNTH]] and that either the second sentence should be removed—or preferably—a different quote chosen that better represents the views of critics of the Denali name change. It's also a bit of a cheap shot. All politicians say dumb things from time to time.[[User:Carl Henderson|Carl Henderson]] ([[User talk:Carl Henderson|talk]]) 02:48, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

:It's pretty borderline. I wouldn't say "synth" necessarily because no "statement C" is stated or implied. If anything, it would be excluded due to not being mentioned in reliable sources relating to this issue, or [[WP:WEIGHT]]. Perhaps it would be best to remove that criticism entirely. There are enough people complaining about this that one ignorant comment won't make or break the point we're trying to make in the paragraph. [[User:PraetorianFury|PraetorianFury]] ([[User talk:PraetorianFury|talk]]) 03:48, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

:Huh, I just removed it, ''then'' looked here. I'm pretty sure this is classic SYNTH, using one source to dispute another. it is also a little bit of a dig, but that's not why I removed it. [[User:Hbdragon88|hbdragon88]] ([[User talk:Hbdragon88|talk]]) 07:50, 2 September 2015 (UTC)
::I do think the Congressman's statement implies that McKinley has direct descendants, or, at the very least, family who have strong feelings on the issue. McKinley's closest living relatives are [https://mckinleystarkcountyresearch.wordpress.com/mckinley-archives/you-think-you-are-related-to-president-william-mckinley/ cousins five and six times removed]. I, for one, am looking forward to their angry press conference. [[User:Vesuvius Dogg|Vesuvius Dogg]] ([[User talk:Vesuvius Dogg|talk]]) 13:20, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

== Should party affiliations be included? ==

The article does not have the party-state notation commonly used in discussing U.S. politicians. Is there a reason for this? I began to add a couple, like Bill Walker, Governor of Alaska (who is Republican) and the Ohio representatives who oppose the name change. But perhaps there is no consensus on whether this should be included. It is probably interesting to readers, because the split appears to have more to do with state than party. Alaskans, including Republicans, seem to support "Denali", while Ohioan politicians are against it, including some Democrats. So it is not a partisan matter. [[User:Roches|Roches]] ([[User talk:Roches|talk]]) 19:36, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 19:53, 10 June 2024

Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Denali–Mount_McKinley_naming_dispute&oldid=1228353298"