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==Title?==
== Potential ==


as it is now, the two entries "elecitric potential" and "potential" (the very last) are identical. would it not make much more sense to interpret the second potential as gravitational potential? then its SI dimension would be [''L''<sup>2</sup> ''T''<sup>-2</sup>] (the same as energy/mass), and the multiplication factor would just be c<sup>-2</sup>. --[[User:Diogenes2000|Diogenes2000]] ([[User talk:Diogenes2000|talk]]) 02:51, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
Should this be moved to [[geometrized unit]] (singular)? Sometimes the plural is appropriate in an article title; is this such a case? [[User:Michael Hardy|Michael Hardy]] 15:46, 18 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I moved it to '''geometrized unit system''', for in this case the plural was used to identify a category. Thanks for the comment.

==8&pi;G = 1?==

Isn't sometimes 8&pi;G set to 1? --[[User:Pjacobi|Pjacobi]] 11:05, July 31, 2005 (UTC)

:There actually are several different systems involved here. Your "sometimes" and the "sometimes" starting the second paragaph of the article are clues to that fact. [[User:Gene Nygaard|Gene Nygaard]] 11:16, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

Yes, 8&pi;G is another common convention, as is 16&pi;G=1. This is problematic. My impression is that the most common modern convention is 8&pi;G=1, but I could be mistaken. &ndash;[[User:Joke137|Joke137]] 18:10, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

::But what about Wald, ''General relativity'', Appendix F, which uses c = G =1? This is probably the most widely used graduate textbook on general relativity in the English-speaking world. Can anyone cite a major textbook which used either of the other two conventions mentioned by Joke137? ---[[User:Hillman|CH ]] [[User_talk:Hillman|(talk)]] 01:33, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

==Students beware==

I extensively edited the August 2006 version of this article and had been monitoring it for bad edits, but
I am leaving the WP and am now abandoning this article to its fate.

Just wanted to provide notice that I am only responsible (in part) for the last version I edited; see [[User:Hillman/Archive]]. I emphatically do not vouch for anything you might see in more recent versions, although I hope for the best.

Good luck in your search for information, regardless!---[[User:Hillman|CH]] 23:52, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

== MKS Charge units ==

I beleive there should be a entry for converting SI charge units in the official conversion table.

Using google calculator, I get for the conversion constant:


<math>\sqrt{G / 4 \pi \epsilon_0 c^4} </math> = sqrt(G / (4 * Pi * electric constant * c^4)) = 8.61667791 × 10-18 m / coulomb


question: what source should be used for constant values?

[[User:Pervect|Pervect]] 23:09, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

== Edits ==

I've made the edits indicated above, having gotten no comments. The conversion table from Wald is for cgs units, unfortunately. This would only matter for charge and related electrical units. I've marked up the table to indicate it's a cgs table as the simplest course of action to fix the issue.

consistincy checks:
: 1 statcolumb * sqrt(G)/c^2 -> 2.87 * 10^-25 cm = 2.87* 10^-27 m
: 1 coulomb -> 8.62 * 10^-18 m (from MKS table)

: 1 statcolumb / 1 coulomb = 3.33*10^-10


consistent with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statcoulomb
This is incosistent with the wiki [[cgs]] page, however!

more consistency checks:

: charge of electron = 1.381*10^-34 cm (MTW back cover)
: charge of electron = 1.60*10^-19 coulomb * 8.62*10^-18 m/coulomb = 1.38*10^-36 m = 1.38*10^-34 cm

[[User:Pervect|Pervect]] 22:41, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

== more edits ==

I went through and added the SI units and conversion factors to the table (a major edit at least in terms of work).

I cross-checked the conversion formulas for SI units with google calculator. Examples (cut and paste the following formula into google calc). epsilon_0 is "electric constant" in Google.

:(amps)* (sqrt (G / (4 * pi * electric constant))) / c^3=
:(tesla) * (sqrt(G * (4 * pi * electric constant) ) / c) =
:(volts) * (sqrt(G * (4 * pi * electric constant) ) / c^2) =

==LUFE Matrix and unit conversion==

I recently added unidimensional version of LUFE Matrix to [[Geometrized unit system]] article, and too documenting reference to less simplified original duodimensional LUFE Matrix. I ask, how to convert meter, kilogram, second, ampere, kelvin, mole and candela to second, using cross-consistent converting formulas that too will retain cross-consistency in converting between meter, kilogram, second, ampere, kelvin, mole and candela, giving cross-consistent results? Which formulas are needed to perform this conversion task, directly from these units to seconds and second-derivations as follows:

*from meter to '''second to one power'''
*from kilogram to '''second to one power'''
*from second to '''second to one power'''
*from ampere to '''second to zero power'''
*from kelvin to '''second to minus one power'''
*from mole to '''second to zero power'''
*from candela to '''second to zero power'''

After removing from article I moved to discussion both reference of this duodimensional LUFE Matrix by Reginald Brooks that simplifies non-geometrized units to space and time dimensions, and too unidimensional LUFE Matrix that simplifies non-geometrized units to only one dimension, that can be either linear space or linear time dimension. It is a simplification of Brooks's one. Maybe it will be useful for someone?

{|class="wikitable"
|- height="20" style="mso-height-source:userset;height:15.0pt"
| height="20" class="xl24" width="110" style="height:15.0pt;width:83pt" | D<sup>-3</sup>
| class="xl24" width="110" style="width:83pt" | D<sup>-2</sup>
| class="xl24" width="110" style="width:83pt" | D<sup>-1</sup>
| class="xl24" width="110" style="width:83pt" | D<sup>0</sup>
| class="xl24" width="110" style="width:83pt" | D<sup>+1</sup>
| class="xl24" width="110" style="width:83pt" | D<sup>+2</sup>
| class="xl24" width="110" style="width:83pt" | D<sup>+3</sup>
|- height="20" style="mso-height-source:userset;height:15.0pt"
| height="100" class="xl25" width="110" style="height:75.0pt; width:83pt" | amount of substance concentration
| class="xl25" width="110" style="width:83pt" | angular acceleration,
electric charge density, mass density
| class="xl25" width="110" style="width:83pt" | acceleration, electric field,
electric field reluctance, electric field strength, electric flux density
| class="xl25" width="110" style="width:83pt" | conductance, velocity of
light
| class="xl25" width="110" style="width:83pt" | capacitance, length,
wavelength
| class="xl25" width="110" style="width:83pt" | angular momentum, Boltzmann
constant, entropy, heat capacity, magnetic moment, Planck constant,
universal gas constant
| class="xl25" width="110" style="width:83pt" | moment of inertia,
quadropole moment
|- height="20" style="mso-height-source:userset;height:15.0pt"
| height="100" class="xl25" width="110" style="height:75.0pt; width:83pt" |
| class="xl25" width="110" style="width:83pt" | electric current density
| class="xl25" width="110" style="width:83pt" | activity, angular frequency,
angular velocity, frequency, magnetic flux density, temperature
| class="xl25" width="110" style="width:83pt" | current, magnetomotive force
| class="xl25" width="110" style="width:83pt" | charge, electric flux, mass
| class="xl25" width="110" style="width:83pt" | area
| class="xl25" width="110" style="width:83pt" | volume
|- height="20" style="mso-height-source:userset;height:15.0pt"
| height="100" class="xl25" width="110" style="height:75.0pt; width:83pt" |
| class="xl25" width="110" style="width:83pt" | energy density, modulus of
elasticity, pressure, stress
| class="xl25" width="110" style="width:83pt" | heat flux, spring constant,
surface tension, thermal conductance
| class="xl25" width="110" style="width:83pt" | dose, potential difference,
specific energy
| class="xl25" width="110" style="width:83pt" | energy, heat, internal
energy, moment of force, torque, work
| class="xl25" width="110" style="width:83pt" | center of mass, electric
moment
| class="xl25" width="110" style="width:83pt" |
|- height="20" style="mso-height-source:userset;height:15.0pt"
| height="100" class="xl25" width="110" style="height:75.0pt; width:83pt" |
| class="xl25" width="110" style="width:83pt" | heat flux density,
irradiance, radiance, radiant flux density, sound intensity
| class="xl25" width="110" style="width:83pt" | Josephson frequency volt
quotient
| class="xl25" width="110" style="width:83pt" | energy, power, radiant flux
conduction
| class="xl25" width="110" style="width:83pt" | impulse, momentum
| class="xl25" width="110" style="width:83pt" | specific volume
| class="xl25" width="110" style="width:83pt" |
|- height="20" style="mso-height-source:userset;height:15.0pt"
| height="100" class="xl25" width="110" style="height:75.0pt; width:83pt" |
| class="xl25" width="110" style="width:83pt" | luminance
| class="xl25" width="110" style="width:83pt" | magnetic field intensity,
magnetic field strength, magnetization, viscosity
| class="xl25" width="110" style="width:83pt" | force, tension, thermal
conductivity
| class="xl25" width="110" style="width:83pt" | inductance, permeance
| class="xl25" width="110" style="width:83pt" | Stefan Boltzmann constant
| class="xl25" width="110" style="width:83pt" |
|- height="20" style="mso-height-source:userset;height:15.0pt"
| height="100" class="xl25" width="110" style="height:75.0pt; width:83pt" |
| class="xl25" width="110" style="width:83pt" |
| class="xl25" width="110" style="width:83pt" | Rydberg constant
| class="xl25" width="110" style="width:83pt" | impedance, reactance,
resistance
| class="xl25" width="110" style="width:83pt" | magnetic flux, specific heat,
thermal diffusivity
| class="xl25" width="110" style="width:83pt" |
| class="xl25" width="110" style="width:83pt" |
|- height="20" style="mso-height-source:userset;height:15.0pt"
| height="100" class="xl25" width="110" style="height:75.0pt; width:83pt" |
| class="xl25" width="110" style="width:83pt" |
| class="xl25" width="110" style="width:83pt" |
| class="xl25" width="110" style="width:83pt" | permeability of the vacuum
| class="xl25" width="110" style="width:83pt" | resistivity, temperature
coefficient resistance, thermal expansion coefficiency, time
| class="xl25" width="110" style="width:83pt" |
| class="xl25" width="110" style="width:83pt" |
|}

Source: [http://www.brooksdesign-cg.com/Code/Html/Lm/Lma.htm LUFE Matrix]

[[User:83.19.52.107|83.19.52.107]] 07:21, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

: I rather hate to say this after all the work this user has put in, but I think that the LUFE matrix is not a good Wikipedia reference, as per http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources, specifically WP:SPS

:I'll take the liberty of quoting the relevant section

---<quote begin>---

Self-published sources
Shortcut:
WP:SPS
WP:SELFPUB

'''Main article: Wikipedia:Attribution'''

A self-published source is a published source that has not been subject to any form of independent fact-checking, or where no one stands between the writer and the act of publication. It includes personal websites and books published by vanity presses. Anyone can create a website or pay to have a book published, and then claim to be an expert in a certain field. For that reason, self-published books, personal websites, and blogs are usually not acceptable as sources (see Exceptions below).

---<quote end>---

:I haven't been terribly active on Wikipedia recently, or I would have mentioned this much earlier.

:Unfortunately this suggests that a major revert is in order.... [[User:Pervect|Pervect]] 18:47, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

:If you find out something new, even a new way of presenting it, Wikipedia isn't the right place to publish it. Encyclopedias aren't for creative work. And I'd consider something new, as long as not taken up in textbooks or at least review papers. There is some middle ground, where nasty long-going arguments may arise (as happened regarding [[Entropy]]), but the case of the LUFE matrix seems rather clear to me. So I revert now. --[[User:Pjacobi|Pjacobi]] 22:24, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

==Unit conversion==
What's with conversion from all base SI units to seconds? How to convert from these units to second to various power as stated below and deduced from abovementioned LUFE Matrix?

*from meter to '''second to one power'''
*from kilogram to '''second to one power'''
*from second to '''second to one power'''
*from ampere to '''second to zero power'''
*from kelvin to '''second to minus one power'''
*from mole to '''second to zero power'''
*from candela to '''second to zero power'''

[[User:83.5.0.83|83.5.0.83]] 16:32, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

:See the table in "Definition" which lists the more important cases. Perhaps the conversion factor of "1" for length should be explicitely added. Current and voltage may be added, mole and candela I would leave out. --[[User:Pjacobi|Pjacobi]] 16:38, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

::Can you update definition table in article to cover all seven SI base units, even mole and candela, and reorient table's conversion to converting from these units into second to various power, or at least provide in discussion all needed conversion formulas that fits my need of converting from seven SI units into second? I don't know all needed conversion factors for these, and those placed there converts into meters, but not into seconds.[[User:83.5.0.83|83.5.0.83]] 16:42, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

:::A mole is just a certain number of particles - it shouldn't need any conversion. I don't know how to handle candela offhand. To convert to seconds rather than meters, convert to meters and multiply by 1/c, which has units of seconds/meter.

:::As far as powers go, there is a standard rule for handling unit conversions, which is that if you square the units, you square the conversion factor. Example: 1 foot = 12 inch, 1 foot^2 = 144 square inches. There should be articles on how to do general unit conversions that explain this. However, dimensional analysis, the logical place for this, doesn't seem too detailed. So there is room for improvement in the Wikipedia, but the improvement should probably go into the dimensional analysis article. [[User:Pervect|Pervect]] 02:23, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

::::After aplying your tips I got:

::::*for conversion from meter to '''second to one power''' - c defining how many meters are in one second
::::*for conversion from kilogram to '''second to one power''' - c<sup>3</sup>/G defining how many kilograms are in one second
::::*for conversion from second to '''second to one power''' - no conversion factor, because 1s=1s<sup>1</sup>
::::*for conversion from ampere to '''second to zero power''' - no conversion factor, because it is dimensionless number
::::*for conversion from kelvin to '''second to minus one power''' - c<sup>5</sup>/(G*k) defining how many kelvins are in one second

::::(not in second to minus one power, because LUFE Matrix has contradiction at kelvin position between "°K" and "per °K" between these tables: [http://www.brooksdesign-cg.com/Code/Html/Lm/LMunitSI.htm] [http://www.brooksdesign-cg.com/Code/Html/Lm/LMGsota.htm])

::::*for conversion from mole to '''second to zero power''' - no conversion factor, because it is dimensionless number
::::*for conversion from candela to '''second to zero power''' - no conversion factor, because it is dimensionless number

::::I cross-checked these conversion factors by converting from obtained from second these values of both meter and kilogram back to kelvin, both using direct conversions from second to kelvin, and too from meter to kelvin multiplying by (c<sup>4</sup>/(G*k)) [K/m] and from kilogram to kelvin multiplying by (c<sup>2</sup>/k) [K/kg], and finally obtained the same results as in direct conversion from second to kelvin. That means that this set of conversion formulas is fully cross-consistent.

::::But how transform this conversion factor c<sup>5</sup>/(G*k) to change its dimension from '''kelvins per second to one power''' (K/s<sup>1</sup>) into '''kelvins per second to minus one power''' (K/s<sup>-1</sup>) ? [[User:83.5.72.232|83.5.72.232]] 10:44, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

:::::Boltzman's constant converts kelvins into energy units. A higher temperature means more energy. In geometric units, energy, mass, time, and length all share the same unit - the meter or centimeter in most variants. Therfore kelvin units, as a measure of energy, are not equivalent to hertz, but rather to meters or seconds. Think about linear dimensions. Feet are not equivalent to 1/feet and feet are not equivalent to square feet. Feet, 1/feet, and in general feet^n are all different units for different values of n and cannot be equated. [[User:Pervect|Pervect]] 17:23, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

::::::Thus if kelvin equals to meters or seconds, why LUFE Matrix treats temperature as dimension to minus one power as is stated in aboveplaced table and in LUFE Matrix subpage placed here:http://www.brooksdesign-cg.com/Code/Html/Lm/LMunitSI.htm ? With all other ratios LUFE Matrix dimensionally agrees with pink-titled conversion table in Wikipedia article about geometrized units. That suggests that possibility of changing dimension of abovementioned ratio from K/s<sup>1</sup> into K/s<sup>-1</sup> that you, Pervect denied, can exist. Please explain why there is contradiction between LUFE Matrix and your judging? [[User:83.5.72.232|83.5.72.232]] 19:05, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

:::::::LUFE Matrix treats temperature as dimension to minus one power instead of dimension to one power, because it has contradiction at kelvin position between "°K" and "per °K" between these tables: [http://www.brooksdesign-cg.com/Code/Html/Lm/LMunitSI.htm] [http://www.brooksdesign-cg.com/Code/Html/Lm/LMGsota.htm] Additionally, because c<sup>5</sup>/(G*k) [K/s] is consistent with other conversion factors, while h/k [K/Hz] is not consistent with other conversion factors, LUFE Matrix is in error at Kelvin position, while Wikipedia set of conversion factors is valid. That fact finally denies possibility of changing dimension of abovementioned ratio from K/s<sup>1</sup> into K/s<sup>-1</sup>.[[User:83.19.52.107|83.19.52.107]] 07:32, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

::::::::Finally our discussion about septenary geometrized units was crowned by releasing by me principles and creation process of such system in article placed here: http://www.internet-encyclopedia.org/index.php/Septimalisation [[User:83.19.52.107|83.19.52.107]] 07:06, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

== Getting from second to ampere, mole and candela ==
I now need to go into geometrically dimensionless SI base units, and because of geometrical dimensionessness of ampere, mole, and candela, I think that some visualisations are needed:

<b>For ampere:</b> Because 1A = 1 C/s, and because 1s equals 3.47921161E25C from this expression:
c^3/((G/(4*pi*(electric constant)))^0.5) [C/s]=[A], verifiable here: [http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=c%5E3%2F%28%28G%2F%284*pi*%28electric+constant%29%29%29%5E0.5%29&btnG=Google+Search Google] I can visualize resultant dimensionless unit of current as one second of space that equals 3.47921161E25C and 299792458m, that flows in one second of time. Due to this, I will rather consider coulomb as next base unit, because it has dimension of distance, and was not present in previous set of units such as meter, kilogram, second and kelvin.

<b>For mole:</b> Because 1mol= 1NA, I can visualize one mole as 6.0221415E23 dimensionless units, thus I will discard it completely, because it is not even ratio of two dimensionful units.

<b>For candela:</b> Because 1cd is 1/683 [W/sr], I will rather consider lumens to discard dimensionless steradian that is a dimensionless ratio of areas. 1 lm equals 1/683 [W], that equals [J/s] and [kg*m^2/s^3], and because ratio of length*mass^2 to time^3 is the same as ratio of distance^3 to distance^3, I can visualize lumen as dimensionless ratio of volumes, which makes lumen in its parts and its wholeness a totally dimensionless unit, consisted of ratios of dimensionful units such as meter, kilogram, and second which all have dimension of distance. Because lumen contains no additional units besides meter, kilogram, second, coulomb and kelvin, I will discard it completely.

Source: [http://www.onr.navy.mil/sci_tech/31/312/ncsr/devices/led/ch_11_human_vision.pdf Human vision]


==Conversion factors between meter, kilogram, second, coulomb and kelvin==
==Conversion factors between meter, kilogram, second, coulomb and kelvin==

Here you have all needed conversion factors that covers all SI base units, and if not possible, their unique elements:
Here you have all needed conversion factors that covers all SI base units, and if not possible, their unique elements:


Line 304: Line 63:
*c^2/(k*(G*4*pi*(electric constant))^0.5) [K/C]
*c^2/(k*(G*4*pi*(electric constant))^0.5) [K/C]


All these units represents nothing else than distance along dimension, that makes SI redundant in comparison to geometrized units. I added all these abovementioned factors after proper formatting to article. They can be verified in Google calculator. [[User:Wikinger|Wikinger]] 16:46, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
All these units represents nothing else than distance along dimension, that makes SI redundant in comparison to geometrized units. I added all these abovementioned factors after proper formatting to article. They can be verified in Google calculator.

This all is exactly equivalent to dividing of one [[Planck unit]] by another [[Planck unit]], while using their direct SI values. [[Special:Contributions/83.30.150.203|83.30.150.203]] ([[User talk:83.30.150.203|talk]]) 08:20, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

== Geometric quantities ==

I removed an entire section with a table of conversions. @[[User:Anubub|Anubub]] reverted the change, but I took it out again based on [[WP:BURDEN]].

The table entries need a reference. If the entries are trivial, then we don't need the table. If the entries are [[WP:NOTABLE]] then they need a reference.

In addition, the practical issue is that entries in the table keep being changed and we have no justification for reverting such changes because we have no reference. [[User:Johnjbarton|Johnjbarton]] ([[User talk:Johnjbarton|talk]]) 16:09, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 19:09, 30 June 2024

Potential

[edit]

as it is now, the two entries "elecitric potential" and "potential" (the very last) are identical. would it not make much more sense to interpret the second potential as gravitational potential? then its SI dimension would be [L2 T-2] (the same as energy/mass), and the multiplication factor would just be c-2. --Diogenes2000 (talk) 02:51, 30 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Conversion factors between meter, kilogram, second, coulomb and kelvin

[edit]

Here you have all needed conversion factors that covers all SI base units, and if not possible, their unique elements:

into m

  • G/c^2 [m/kg]
  • c [m/s]
  • ((G/(4*pi*(electric constant)))^0.5)/c^2 [m/C]
  • (G*k)/c^4 [m/K]

into kg

  • c^2/G [kg/m]
  • c^3/G [kg/s]
  • 1/(G*4*pi*(electric constant))^0.5 [kg/C]
  • k/c^2 [kg/K]

into s

  • 1/c [s/m]
  • G/c^3 [s/kg]
  • ((G/(4*pi*(electric constant)))^0.5)/c^3 [s/C]
  • (G*k)/c^5 [s/K]

into C

  • c^2/((G/(4*pi*(electric constant)))^0.5) [C/m]
  • (G*4*pi*(electric constant))^0.5 [C/kg]
  • c^3/((G/(4*pi*(electric constant)))^0.5) [C/s]
  • (k*(G*4*pi*(electric constant))^0.5)/c^2 [C/K]

into K

  • c^4/(G*k) [K/m]
  • c^2/k [K/kg]
  • c^5/(G*k) [K/s]
  • c^2/(k*(G*4*pi*(electric constant))^0.5) [K/C]

All these units represents nothing else than distance along dimension, that makes SI redundant in comparison to geometrized units. I added all these abovementioned factors after proper formatting to article. They can be verified in Google calculator.

This all is exactly equivalent to dividing of one Planck unit by another Planck unit, while using their direct SI values. 83.30.150.203 (talk) 08:20, 20 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Geometric quantities

[edit]

I removed an entire section with a table of conversions. @Anubub reverted the change, but I took it out again based on WP:BURDEN.

The table entries need a reference. If the entries are trivial, then we don't need the table. If the entries are WP:NOTABLE then they need a reference.

In addition, the practical issue is that entries in the table keep being changed and we have no justification for reverting such changes because we have no reference. Johnjbarton (talk) 16:09, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Geometrized_unit_system&oldid=1231875259"