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m Archiving 1 discussion(s) to Talk:Battle of Berlin/Archive 10) (bot
 
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|action1date=01:04, 27 July 2007
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|action1link=Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Peer review/Battle of Berlin
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==German numbers==
|action2link=Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Battle of Berlin
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From my talk page with my replies on [[User:Shipslong45|Shipslong45]] talk page. --[[User:Philip Baird Shearer|Philip Baird Shearer]] 17:27, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
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|action3link=Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Battle of Berlin/archive1
Hello
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What are you doing in the battle of Berlin article
|otd1date=2005-05-02|otd1oldid=16335190

|otd2date=2006-05-02|otd2oldid=51212000
From your edits it looks like that 45,000 soldiers and 40,000 were ALONE fighting 2,5 million Soldiers and these 85,000 men were able to inflict some 280,000 casualties
|otd3date=2007-05-02|otd3oldid=127611131

|otd4date=2008-05-02|otd4oldid=209404894
If you look at all other languages they all say that the Axis had 1,000,000 men
|otd5date=2009-05-02|otd5oldid=287469370

|otd6date=2010-05-02|otd6oldid=359542992
So why do you say that the Axis only had 85,000? <small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment was added by [[User:Shipslong45|Shipslong45]] ([[User talk:Shipslong45|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Shipslong45|contribs]]) 10:34, 17 August 2007 (UTC{{{3|}}})</small>
|otd7date=2015-05-02|otd7oldid=660036821

|otd8date=2016-05-02|otd8oldid=718036562

|otd9date=2017-05-02|otd9oldid=778399348
:If the number of Germans is known and sourced then please add a citation to a [[WP:V|Verifiable]], [[WP:RS|Reliable Source]], that states how many Germans were involved.
|otd10date=2019-05-02|otd10oldid=895190737

|otd11date=2020-05-02|otd11oldid=954091195
:The sentence I restored says: "'''In''' Berlin about 45,000 soldiers, supplemented by the ..." (my emphasis), also please read the footnote to the sentence that explains that "A large number of the 45,000 were troops of the LVI Panzer Corps that were at the start of the battle part of the German IX Army on the Seelow Heights". --[[User:Philip Baird Shearer|Philip Baird Shearer]] 10:48, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
|otd12date=2022-05-02|otd12oldid=1085817989
This internet LEARNING home page also says 1 million
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http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/battle_for_berlin.htm
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{{WikiProject Germany |importance=Top |Prussia=yes}}

{{WikiProject Soviet Union |importance=Top}}
So I will add the 1 million again ok? [[User:Shipslong45|Shipslong45]] 10:47, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
{{WikiProject Russia |importance=Top |hist=y |mil=y}}

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HUH?
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Just go here and look
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http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/battle_for_berlin.htm
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:The source provided is not good enough because there is no information about how the figures are arrived at and it does not cite its sources, and it is not published in a peer review journal or by a person who is an acknowledged expert historian of this period. For example do the figures include the German Twelfth and Twenty-First Armies which were initially facing the Western Allies, or is it only counting the figures for the formations on the Oder-Neisse front, Does it include all of the German [[Army Group Centre]] even those that did not take part in the Battle? --[[User:Philip Baird Shearer|Philip Baird Shearer]] 11:04, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
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This is very Verifiable and Reliable since it is an official site sanctioned by the United Kingdom to educate its citizens, it does not get more reliable then that [[User:Shipslong45|Shipslong45]] 10:51, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
{{User:HBC Archive Indexerbot/OptIn

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:As to your last edit you still have not [[WP:CITE|cited]] your source. --[[User:Philip Baird Shearer|Philip Baird Shearer]] 11:06, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
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The 1 million was the figure initially given in Soviet estimates. In other words, 1 million defenders is what the USSR prepared for in their plans. However, due to the depleted nature of the divisions facing them, the actual strength was probably somewhat less. My gut feeling says ~700,000, which would account for the difficulties encountered in the campaign, as well as the high body count and the numbers of prisoners taken. The German strength total couldn't have been much less than 600,000, in my estimation. Combining the five field armies, plus Op Group Steiner, plus Volkssturm, plus police units you have something at least on the order of 50-60 divisions. Given that German divisions tended to be on the large side, if you treated those 50-60 divisions as full strength you would very well end up with a figure close to 1 million. Allowing for some depletion but retaining combat effectiveness, a more realistic total would be somewhat less, but not significantly less. There's no way to go here except by estimating, since Germany didn't have an accounting system in 1945, and what they did have was already breaking down in 44.
{{Archives |bot=Lowercase sigmabot III |age=3 |units=months |search=yes|index=/Archive index}}

Unfortunately, the only figures that hint at an accurate total either this immediate postwar Soviet estimate of casualties I found (~937,000 killed/captured out of the expected 1,000,000), which is more of historigraphic rather than historical interest, or slanted pro-German accounts that seek to minimize any and all German engagement in this campaign out of some perverse sense of national honor (and I'm not bashing Ziemke, just idiots like Albert Seaton). It's true that the total Berlin garrison numbered 80,000-100,000, but if one wants to confine the operational area to the city itself, Soviet troop strengths would have to be revised to 350,000 for the seven armies that participated in the assault itself.

That said, there has to be some way of putting up reasonable estimates, but all the sources I have read either use the 1,000,000 figure (probably more accurate but not good enough for reasons stated above) or play the transparently disingenuous lowballing game that assumes the reader has no grasp of basic arithmetic. When/IF I find a sourced statistic that seems reasonable, I'll try to put it up. Until then, would it be all right to qualify the 1,000,000 figure as an initial estimate? <small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment was added by [[Special:Contributions/{{{IP|{{{User|68.160.55.123}}}}}}|{{{IP|{{{User|68.160.55.123}}}}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{IP|{{{User|68.160.55.123}}}}}}|talk]]) {{{Time|15:07:42, August 19, 2007 (UTC)}}}</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
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I sent an email to [http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/battle_for_berlin.htm History Learning Site > World War Two > The Battle for Berlin] (the source used by [[User:Shipslong45|Shipslong45]]) and the author was kind enough to send back a reply that said his sources were ''"History of World War Two" magazines published by Purnell''

It seems to me that the problem with German figures is that in the last few weeks of the war there was a big difference between the Order of Battle and the number of men actually available. A further problem is that as Beevor (p.287) points out when the battle was over the Soviets took into captivity as POWs any man in a uniform including many none combatants such as firemen and railwaymen. So it is probably impossible to know. However if the Soviets estimates were 1 million Germans and it is noted in a footnote with a source, I think we should included it. If for no other reason than it will stop it being put into the article every so often without an adequate source or footnoted comment that the primary source is a Soviet planning estimate. --[[User:Philip Baird Shearer|Philip Baird Shearer]] 18:08, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

:All right, I think I have found a solution to this conundrum. I just spent some time footnote digging in my books, and I think David Glantz has a definitive answer to this. He talks about the 1 million figure that is commonly repeated in Soviet sources, and he indicates that it includes all of Army Group Vistula, XII Army, and probably more of AG Center than engaged in the operation. In a classified postwar study titled ''Berlinskaya operatsiia 1945 goda'' prepared by the Soviet Army General Staff, German strength in and forward of Berlin was determined to be 766,750 men, 1,519 AFVs, and 9,303 guns. Considering that this document was kept classified while the more propagandistic figure of 1 million was allowed to float around and, well, propagate, I would suppose that this figure is likely to be realistic and definitive. The question is whether we should delete the unit list that is currently in the battlebox and replace it with a straight number or simply append this information to it. [[User:68.160.55.123|68.160.55.123]] 18:13, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

I say delete and replace the units the with a straight number, but leave the numbers for in Berlin. --[[User:Philip Baird Shearer|Philip Baird Shearer]] 18:38, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

:Done. I also took the liberty of putting a sourced note about the 1 million figure, in case anyone tries to put it back.[[User:68.160.55.123|68.160.55.123]] 19:15, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

==Berlin Defense Area Figures==

Even though the claim of 1,500,000 men committed to the Berlin Defense Area is supposedly backed up by Beevor, I would have to question it. You can take a look at the map yourself for the total forces committed in the storming of the city.
[http://www.geocities.com/sonzabird/berlin.jpg http://www.geocities.com/sonzabird/berlin.jpg]
Counting the units, we have 1st Guards Tank Army, 2nd Guards Tank Army, 3rd Guards Tank Army, 3rd Shock Army, 5th Shock Army, 8th Guards Army, and 28th Army. That's a total of seven Soviet field armies, each of which number anywhere between 30,000-60,000 men (fewer in the tank armies and more in the shock armies). There is no way that those 7 armies could ever total more than half a million men, and the likely figure is more in the 300,000-400,000 range. I would delete the claim or seriously qualify it. There's too much history done by people who don't take the time to add the basic numbers in their head.[[User:68.160.55.123|68.160.55.123]] 19:58, 19 August 2007 (UTC)


== Semi-protected edit request on 5 November 2023 ==
From Christopher Duffy's ''Red Storm on the Reich,'' these are the typical unit strengths of Soviet formations.


{{Edit semi-protected|Battle of Berlin|answered=yes}}
Tank Army
Please remove "RAF" per [[WP:HATEXTRA]]. [[Special:Contributions/49.150.4.134|49.150.4.134]] ([[User talk:49.150.4.134|talk]]) 00:25, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
:35-50,000 men
:{{done}}<!-- Template:ESp --> Thank you. [[User:Liu1126|Liu1126]] ([[User talk:Liu1126|talk]]) 14:26, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
:900 (three corps) tanks
:850 artillery pieces


== Should Hitler be included as a commander/leader? ==
Combined Arms Army
:40,000 men
:400 tanks
:1,100 artillery pieces


Honestly, I think he should be included as a leader, but I want the input of other people first. [[User:WIKIPEDA (yes i meant to misspell it)|WIKIPEDA (yes i meant to misspell it)]] ([[User talk:WIKIPEDA (yes i meant to misspell it)|talk]]) 05:49, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
Guards and shock armies are largely similar, except that they have additional reinforcements and shock armies are proportionately heavier in artillery. In any case, there's no way that seven of these could total half a million, let alone 1.5 million. [[User:68.160.55.123|68.160.55.123]] 20:08, 19 August 2007 (UTC)


:I would agree. He was a the leader of the Third Reich and thus the head of the armed forces. [[User:Jmurphy042000|Jmurphy042000]] ([[User talk:Jmurphy042000|talk]]) 00:40, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
A couple of quibbles with the numbers: you have not included the tactical air armies also engaged in the battle, and there were several other Armies engaged not on the map ... for example First Polish and the Soviet Forty-seventh Army. I have not been through all the armies engaged in storming the city, but lets assume that you are correct I agree it comes to less than 1.5 million. In defence of Beevor, I would guess that he came to that number by taking those available in the two Fronts (army groups) that were initially engaged in the race for Berlin and were available for the assault. I guess he includes in his numbers those that were involved in the [[investment (military)|investment]] as well as those in the assault because it is I who have put in the words assault on BDA not he. His words are "Weidling found he was supposed to defend Berlin from 1.5 million Soviet troops with ..."


== Semi-protected edit request on 21 March 2024 ==
I am more than willing to accept other figures, but they must be sourced, but for the moment I'll add investment to the wording. --[[User:Philip Baird Shearer|Philip Baird Shearer]] 21:51, 19 August 2007 (UTC)


{{Edit semi-protected|Battle of Berlin|answered=yes}}
:I just went through John Erickson's ''The Road to Berlin,'' and I am largely right. On the encirclement of Berlin (April 25th), Erickson writes, "Soviet command could now count on an encirclement line manned by at least nine armies--47th, 3rd and 5th Shock, 8th Guards, elements of the 28th, and four tank armies (1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th Guards)" (p. 590). Now, flipping back to the operational map on page 587, one can clearly see that 47th Army and 4th Gds Tank were holding their encirclement cordon about 20 miles west of Berlin near Ketzin, which means that only the seven armies I stated earlier were in assault positions on the outskirts of the city. And according to Erickson, the 28th Army was also maintaining an encirclement cordon around IX Army and IV Panzer, so it was only half there.
spell correction of defence plan to defense plan [[Special:Contributions/2600:1700:E60:2310:55B7:F1E8:FF3C:B1F|2600:1700:E60:2310:55B7:F1E8:FF3C:B1F]] ([[User talk:2600:1700:E60:2310:55B7:F1E8:FF3C:B1F|talk]]) 06:00, 21 March 2024 (UTC)
:Are you not a native English user? Only in [[American English]] is defence spelled as "defense". See: [https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/defence the relevant Wiktionary entry]. [[User:Dimadick|Dimadick]] ([[User talk:Dimadick|talk]]) 06:12, 21 March 2024 (UTC)
:[[File:Red information icon with gradient background.svg|20px|link=|alt=]] '''Not done:'''<!-- Template:ESp --> please see [[MOS:ENGVAR]]. [[User:M.Bitton|M.Bitton]] ([[User talk:M.Bitton|talk]]) 16:36, 21 March 2024 (UTC)
::shouldn't the proper language reflect the proper grammar? If the person is reading it in English, in America, shouldn't the article reflect that translation? As an American we can be thrown off by English spellings and vice versa,so shouldn't each page translation reflect the correct spelling? Even if that is two variations of one language, as they are not the same? [[User:Jmurphy042000|Jmurphy042000]] ([[User talk:Jmurphy042000|talk]]) 04:19, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
:::The default for international organisations is British English. For example, Americans working for NATO have to use British English. Doesn’t cause these organisations any problems [[Special:Contributions/86.3.134.204|86.3.134.204]] ([[User talk:86.3.134.204|talk]]) 06:27, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
::::I understand, however, that wasn't what I stated. I stated that the correct grammar should be reflected in the language they are viewing. As an American, who knows many Americans not framiliar with British English, it does cause problems. You're speaking of a world wide organization. That's like saying all scientists understand latin. Why? To stop the confusion you mentioned. However this is a different circumstance, is it not? If I am in American, reading American English I would expect to see that vocabulary used. Tyres in the UK is Tires in America. There are differences. Another example would be the slang term "boot". It is 2 vastly different things in America versus the UK. [[User:Jmurphy042000|Jmurphy042000]] ([[User talk:Jmurphy042000|talk]]) 00:44, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
:::::Also, Wikipedia is technically an American organization, not an international organization. Just because it is on the Web doesn't mean it is "international". It is technically an American non-profit. Which would mean the default language is... American English. [[User:Jmurphy042000|Jmurphy042000]] ([[User talk:Jmurphy042000|talk]]) 00:47, 17 May 2024 (UTC)


== Semi-protected edit request on 2 July 2024 ==
:As for 1st Polish, they did commit one division (probably ~10,000 men total) to the Berlin assault, but the map shows that the army largely bypassed the city pushing west to the Elbe alongside 61st Army. The operational map shows a total of 22 Soviet army-level formations, they are all shown to be engaged in front-line combat so it's apparent that rear area logistical formations are probably not included (reserves and logistics are however, included in the 2.5 million figure). So essentially, the immediate Berlin encirclement in assault positions consisted of 6.5 field armies along with some additional air support. Out of a total of 22 army formations, that's about 30% of total combat forces. It's highly unlikely that there were 1.5 million troops directed at the Berlin Defense Area, considering that 1.5 million would mean commitment from every single combat unit from all three fronts.


{{edit semi-protected|Battle of Berlin|answered=yes}}
:Also, I am going to add the numbers from the Second Polish Army in the article where it mentions Polish involvement, since they were advancing on the extreme southern flank on AG Center.[[User:68.160.55.123|68.160.55.123]] 23:01, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
Someone changed the Nazi flag next to Hitler’s name to the flag of Israel. [[Special:Contributions/23.251.211.70|23.251.211.70]] ([[User talk:23.251.211.70|talk]]) 23:12, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
:{{done}}<!-- Template:ESp --> Fixed, thanks. [[User:Geardona|Geardona]] ([[User talk:Geardona|talk to me?]]) 23:40, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 18:11, 3 July 2024

Former featured article candidateBattle of Berlin is a former featured article candidate. Please view the links under Article milestones below to see why the nomination was archived. For older candidates, please check the archive.
On this day... Article milestones
DateProcessResult
July 27, 2007WikiProject peer reviewReviewed
September 22, 2008WikiProject A-class reviewApproved
October 11, 2008Featured article candidateNot promoted
On this day... Facts from this article were featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "On this day..." column on May 2, 2005, May 2, 2006, May 2, 2007, May 2, 2008, May 2, 2009, May 2, 2010, May 2, 2015, May 2, 2016, May 2, 2017, May 2, 2019, May 2, 2020, and May 2, 2022.
Current status: Former featured article candidate

Semi-protected edit request on 5 November 2023

[edit]

Please remove "RAF" per WP:HATEXTRA. 49.150.4.134 (talk) 00:25, 5 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

 Done Thank you. Liu1126 (talk) 14:26, 5 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Should Hitler be included as a commander/leader?

[edit]

Honestly, I think he should be included as a leader, but I want the input of other people first. WIKIPEDA (yes i meant to misspell it) (talk) 05:49, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I would agree. He was a the leader of the Third Reich and thus the head of the armed forces. Jmurphy042000 (talk) 00:40, 17 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 21 March 2024

[edit]

spell correction of defence plan to defense plan 2600:1700:E60:2310:55B7:F1E8:FF3C:B1F (talk) 06:00, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Are you not a native English user? Only in American English is defence spelled as "defense". See: the relevant Wiktionary entry. Dimadick (talk) 06:12, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
 Not done: please see MOS:ENGVAR. M.Bitton (talk) 16:36, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
shouldn't the proper language reflect the proper grammar? If the person is reading it in English, in America, shouldn't the article reflect that translation? As an American we can be thrown off by English spellings and vice versa,so shouldn't each page translation reflect the correct spelling? Even if that is two variations of one language, as they are not the same? Jmurphy042000 (talk) 04:19, 2 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The default for international organisations is British English. For example, Americans working for NATO have to use British English. Doesn’t cause these organisations any problems 86.3.134.204 (talk) 06:27, 16 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I understand, however, that wasn't what I stated. I stated that the correct grammar should be reflected in the language they are viewing. As an American, who knows many Americans not framiliar with British English, it does cause problems. You're speaking of a world wide organization. That's like saying all scientists understand latin. Why? To stop the confusion you mentioned. However this is a different circumstance, is it not? If I am in American, reading American English I would expect to see that vocabulary used. Tyres in the UK is Tires in America. There are differences. Another example would be the slang term "boot". It is 2 vastly different things in America versus the UK. Jmurphy042000 (talk) 00:44, 17 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Also, Wikipedia is technically an American organization, not an international organization. Just because it is on the Web doesn't mean it is "international". It is technically an American non-profit. Which would mean the default language is... American English. Jmurphy042000 (talk) 00:47, 17 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 2 July 2024

[edit]

Someone changed the Nazi flag next to Hitler’s name to the flag of Israel. 23.251.211.70 (talk) 23:12, 2 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 Done Fixed, thanks. Geardona (talk to me?) 23:40, 2 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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