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== Move to neutral title ==

Using official IDF designations is extremely biased to say tyhe least. A more generic title, based on the sources, should be used. [[User:FunkMonk|FunkMonk]] ([[User talk:FunkMonk|talk]]) 08:18, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
:I redirected this by mistake, but can't seem to revert myself. [[User:FunkMonk|FunkMonk]] ([[User talk:FunkMonk|talk]]) 01:41, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
::What would be the OK title? -[[User:DePiep|DePiep]] ([[User talk:DePiep|talk]]) 02:12, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
:::It's just ... [[List of Israeli attacks on the Gaza strip]]. What a mess~of wiki titles. -[[User:DePiep|DePiep]] ([[User talk:DePiep|talk]]) 02:58, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
::::Something similar to [[2014 Israel–Gaza conflict‎]]. For the same reasons. [[User:FunkMonk|FunkMonk]] ([[User talk:FunkMonk|talk]]) 02:59, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
:::::Maybe something like [[November 2012 Gaza–Israel clashes]], because there is [[March 2012 Gaza–Israel clashes]], so using only year as identifier would be insufficient. Also, maybe even some other problems of this article might be fixed using the solutions for [[March 2012 Gaza–Israel clashes]]. [[Special:Contributions/188.252.186.150|188.252.186.150]] ([[User talk:188.252.186.150|talk]]) 07:15, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
*Oppose moving it per UCN [[User:Darkness Shines|Darkness Shines]] ([[User talk:Darkness Shines|talk]]) 07:35, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

== Background ==

This section is a mess and full of [[WP:SYNTH]]. What is the logic of events included in the background? And the descriptions of the various events? I searched the archives and found that this concern was raised even earlier in many places including [[Talk:Operation_Pillar_of_Defense/Archive_4#Synthesis|here]], [[Talk:Operation_Pillar_of_Defense/Archive_5#Background|here]] and [[Talk:Operation_Pillar_of_Defense/Archive_3#POV.2C_OR_in_background_section|here]].

As far as I can see, the background section is talking about
* 2005 withdrawal
* Hamas Fatah conflict and 2007 coup
* Blockade
* 2008 war and ceasefire
* Rocket attacks and Israeli attacks since then
* Military capabilities of each side

I have no idea what is the logic of selecting these. To fix [[WP:SYNTH]], I am using [http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-20388298 this] BBC article (which is cited in the lead) as a source for the background, basically the section "What is the historical background to this crisis", which seems to cover much the same ground.

The topics covered in my new background, based on BBC article is:
* Brief mention of 1948 and 1967 and 2005 withdrawal
* Hamas Fatah conflict and 2007 coup
* Blockade
* 2008 war and ceasefire
* Rocket attacks and Israeli attacks since then

As far as I can see, they are the same, for the most part, except for the last section (military capabilities of each side), which I have removed. I will be writing the section in [[WP:SS]] for each of the topics based on their wikipedia.pages. [[User:Kingsindian|Kingsindian]] ([[User talk:Kingsindian|talk]]) 23:02, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

I have good faith reverted this [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Operation_Pillar_of_Defense&diff=628331038&oldid=628018864 edit]. Firstly, one has to argue that the military capabilities of either side should be here. If we assume that it should be: if you wish to include military capabilities of either side, describe them both, not just one data point of one side. See commented section for some details. Of course, I agree that the article as a whole is a mess. [[User:Kingsindian|Kingsindian]]&nbsp;[[User Talk: Kingsindian|&#9821;]][[Special:Contributions/Kingsindian|&#9818;]] 21:23, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

== Edit about pre-operation events ==


== Title violates NPOV rules ==
{{re|Wlglunight93}} I don't understand the logic of this [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Operation_Pillar_of_Defense&diff=628331265&oldid=628331038 edit] and this [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Operation_Pillar_of_Defense&diff=628331779&oldid=628331491 edit]. Why is information from down below copy-pasted above, and then some part of the duplicated information removed but not the rest? The paragraph was in chronological order: stuff in early 2012, then July, August, September, October. Now there is randomly a paragraph talking about October 2012 first, then goes back to beginning of 2012, then July etc. I have reverted this for now. [[User:Kingsindian|Kingsindian]]&nbsp;[[User Talk: Kingsindian|&#9821;]][[Special:Contributions/Kingsindian|&#9818;]] 22:01, 5 October 2014 (UTC)


Hello all,
:[https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Operation_Pillar_of_Defense&diff=628387293&oldid=628331779 This] is not duplicated information. It talks about foreign support received by both Hamas and Israel, which is important. I'm restoring it. [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Operation_Pillar_of_Defense&diff=628391691&oldid=628387293 This] is duplicated info indeed. I apologize for that mistake. I didn't notice it was already in the article.--[[User:Wlglunight93|Wlglunight93]] ([[User talk:Wlglunight93|talk]]) 22:09, 5 October 2014 (UTC)
::{{re|Wlglunight93}} I am afraid that makes no sense. The information was copy-pasted from below. How is it possible that you didn't know that this information was already present? Your other edit may or may not be fine, I will respond later. [[User:Kingsindian|Kingsindian]]&nbsp;[[User Talk: Kingsindian|&#9821;]][[Special:Contributions/Kingsindian|&#9818;]] 22:15, 5 October 2014 (UTC)
:::I found that information from the Shin Bet, but I didn't notice it was already there. I'm sorry! It was an honest mistake. You corrected it. The other information about foreign support is nowhere in the article. You made a mistake by removing it.--[[User:Wlglunight93|Wlglunight93]] ([[User talk:Wlglunight93|talk]]) 22:19, 5 October 2014 (UTC)
:::: {{re|Wlglunight93}} I am afraid I don't believe you. I am willing to [[WP:AGF]], but this it too much to stomach. Your edit was a word to word copy paste from below, and even included a reference which said "dead link" from below, which was actually not a dead link. As I said, your other edit may or may not be correct, but I will address it later. [[User:Kingsindian|Kingsindian]]&nbsp;[[User Talk: Kingsindian|&#9821;]][[Special:Contributions/Kingsindian|&#9818;]] 22:36, 5 October 2014 (UTC)
:::::I told you I'm sorry. I accepted your revert. There's nothing more I can do.--[[User:Wlglunight93|Wlglunight93]] ([[User talk:Wlglunight93|talk]]) 22:39, 5 October 2014 (UTC)


In looking at some of the articles on the various Gaza-Israeli conflicts, it's obvious that this article violates NPOV rules by adopting the Israeli operational codename for the war. It's obvious that if this article were called by the Palestinian operational name, it would also violate the NPOV rules. As per the other articles, it should be renamed. Because this might be argued, I figured I'd post to the talk page first before making this change. It would require some alterations in the article body as well to recognize and equally place the two names given to the war by opposing sides. [[User:Tarek|Tarek]] ([[User talk:Tarek|talk]]) 08:06, 12 May 2018 (UTC)
== Lead ==
:Its [[WP:COMMONNAME]] and have proper move discussion if you want to rename--[[user:Shrike|Shrike]] ([[User talk:Shrike|talk]]) 09:02, 12 May 2018 (UTC)


== Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 23 June 2018 ==
As is so often the case with major Gaza/Israel conflicts, the lead has become bloated and contains duplications (e.g. Jabari assassination). It contains detail that belong in the main sections. As a start I intend to 'declutter' the section on the lead-up to the operation, and to merge the detail into the Background section. And even when it contains detail, the two adversaries are not equally represented. [[User:Erictheenquirer|Erictheenquirer]] ([[User talk:Erictheenquirer|talk]]) 13:12, 15 December 2014 (UTC)


{{edit extended-protected|Operation Pillar of Defense|answered=yes}}
{{ping|201.235.223.225}} Regarding your revert of the text about Jabari being involved in the negotiation of a long term truce, your comment (no discussion by you in "Talk") seems to contain two messages: 1) "Gershon Baskin's opinion can't be used to state facts" and 2) "doesn't belong to lead". Treating 2) first, you believe that the fact that the man, whose assassination started the main conflict, was involved in the negotiations of a permanent peace agreement, does not belong in the Lead section, yet the model details of the rockets fired at Israel does. Could you explain this position instead of embarking on a non-discussed revert, please.
Remove the comma in the first paragraph after 'killing' so that the sentence is grammatically correct and reads 'killing of' rather than 'killing, of' [[User:Nickyschlobs|Nickyschlobs]] ([[User talk:Nickyschlobs|talk]]) 07:20, 23 June 2018 (UTC)
:[[File:Yes check.svg|20px|link=|alt=]] '''Done'''<!-- Template:EEp -->--[[User:QueerFilmNerd|QueerFilmNerd]] ([[User talk:QueerFilmNerd|talk]]) 09:17, 23 June 2018 (UTC)


== Move discussion in progress ==
Regarding 1) - Your "Gershon Baskin's opinion can't be used to state facts" - the detailed section "Pre-operation Events" - does exactly that. But anyway, what makes you conclude that Baskin's relating of Jabari's involvement was an "opinion"? Baskin was intimately involved in the formulation process. Please explain in "Talk" this time. [[User:Erictheenquirer|Erictheenquirer]] ([[User talk:Erictheenquirer|talk]]) 14:11, 15 December 2014 (UTC)


There is a move discussion in progress on [[Talk:Operation Autumn Clouds#Requested move 8 December 2019 |Talk:Operation Autumn Clouds]] which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. <!-- Talk:Operation Autumn Clouds crosspost --> —[[User:RMCD bot|RMCD bot]] 18:31, 8 December 2019 (UTC)
:Hi. Gershon Baskin is an unremarkable "peace activist" (meaning left-wing pro-Palestinian, with all due respect) who wrote an opinion piece for a minor anti-Israel newspaper like Haaretz (yes, there are anti-Israel websites in Israel, in a democracy that's not illegal). An opinion column in a biased POV newspaper by a dubious individual is not a [[wp:rs|reliable source]] to state facts, let alone without attribution, let alone in the lead. Besides, he is already included with proper attribution at the end of [[Operation Pillar of Defense#Pre-operation events|this section]], so putting him also in the lead is redundant, POV and undue.--[[Special:Contributions/201.235.60.40|201.235.60.40]] ([[User talk:201.235.60.40|talk]]) 01:22, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
::So you are suggesting that [[Ha'aretz]] is not WP:RS. You can read it's Wiki article, but allow me to highlight a few points: Ha'aretz is Israel's oldest daily newspaper. The English edition is published and sold together with the International New York Times. It functions for Israel much as The New York Times does for the United States. Now let's go to [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard]] - there is not a whiff there of Ha'artz not being WP:RS. So, if you don't mind, I will reject that rebuttal as being invalid.


== Spelling ==
::[[Gershon Baskin]] is a "dubious individual"? He is a columnist for the Jerusalem Post which has a 'central' political leaning; he has a Ph.D. in international relations; he was instrumental in the negotiations with Hamas leading to Gilad Shalit's release; he has been a key contact person between the Israeli government and Hamas; he was decorated by the Prime Minister of Italy; he was awarded the Histadrut Prize for Peace, the Turkish Foreign Policy Institute Peace Prize and the Tribute of Honor and Courage from the World Movement for Democracy. And you blandly, without any confirming support, brand him as "a dubious person". If that is not a mega-POV, then I have yet to see one. REJECTED. And finally, you believe that the assassination of a key player by a party in a peace negotiation of international importance does not warrant being in the summary prelude? Imagine if a US negotiator were to be assassinated by the Iranians. We would never hear the end of it. REJECTED!!!
::I await a relevant response before reverting. [[User:Erictheenquirer|Erictheenquirer]] ([[User talk:Erictheenquirer|talk]]) 14:12, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
::{{ping|201.235.60.40}}Please see above [[User:Erictheenquirer|Erictheenquirer]] ([[User talk:Erictheenquirer|talk]]) 14:14, 16 December 2014 (UTC)


There is a typo involving the but it s typed ths.
:::Gershon Baskin '''IS ALREADY IN THE ARTICLE!''' Jabari was not a "US negotiator". He was a senior Hamas terrorist who was the subject of a targeted killing. I wouldn't consider Gershon Baskin a reliable source to state facts, among other things because it contradicts the fact that the assassination of Ahmed Jabari was precipitated by three days of rocket fire from Gaza to Israel (that's not a "truce"). But that's not even my main point. He is already mentioned at the end of [[Operation Pillar of Defense#Pre-operation events|this section]] and his inclusion in the lead (plus without attribution) is redundant and fails [[wp:balance|balance]], [[wp:lead|lead]], [[wp:npov|NPOV]] and [[wp:undue|undue]]. You have Gershon Baskin in the proper section, so why your insistence on adding such a controversy about alleged "truce/peace talks" in the lead? The circumstances surrounding Jabari's death are developed elsewhere in the article.--[[User:Super Cable Guy|Super Cable Guy]] ([[User talk:Super Cable Guy|talk]]) 02:49, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
: Corrected. Thanks [[User:Cannolis|Cannolis]] ([[User talk:Cannolis|talk]]) 02:33, 30 March 2022 (UTC)
::::{{ping|Super Cable Guy}}Re yr "George Baskin is already in the article" - that is why there is a Lead to summarise important points from the detailed text. It is quite common.
::::Jabiri was a Hamas negotiator - even more pertinent to this case.
::::Re yr "I wouldn't consider Gershon Baskin a reliable source to state facts, among other things because it contradicts the fact that the assassination of Ahmed Jabari was precipitated by three days of rocket fire from Gaza to Israel (that's not a "truce")." Your reasoning is a flawed 'non sequitur' - there is zero logic in rejecting Baskin as a source of facts about Jabari's involvement in the formulation of a permanent truce (with Israeli knowledge) and offering as your rejection of him, rocket fire during three previous days; firing rockets and formulating a truce are not mutally exclusive in either space or time. You need to prove that Baskin had no knowledge of Jabari's involvement in a permanent truce and you have failed to provide that.
::::Regarding your "precipitated by three days of rocket fire from Israel" claim, I challenge the source of your information. My sources show that in the days prior to Jabari's assassination on 14 November 2012, rocket fire was minimal; and they explain why:
::::<blockquote>'Qassam Count' - there was almost no rocket fire on 11 November. This can perhaps be explained by the fact that Palestinian factions were in talks over a truce and were keen to see calm restored. Israel’s Ynet reported on 11 November: Egyptian Intelligence officials have successfully brokered an end to the current round of escalation in the south, Ynet learned Sunday. No Israeli source has corroborated the report.
::::On 12 November, two rockets were fired into Israel according to 'Qassam Count'. This came amid two days of air attacks by Israel on the Gaza Strip [by far the majority of attacks in the days before 14 November were perpetrated by Israel - See PCHR reports].
::::13 November: After five days of mounting violence, Israel and the Palestinians stepped back from the brink of a new war in the Gaza Strip on Tuesday, sending signals to each other via Egypt that they would hold their fire unless attacked. The report added: Ismail Haniyeh, prime minister of Gaza’s Hamas government, praised the main armed factions in the enclave for agreeing on Monday night to a truce. “They showed a high sense of responsibility by saying they would respect calm should the Israeli occupation also abide by it,” he said.
::::14 November: "Israel destroys the truce" - Yet Israel was not interested in calm. On 14 November Israel carried out the extrajudicial killing of Hamas military chief Ahmad al-Jabari.</blockquote>
::::Second source: "The assassination breaks a day-old lull in what was intense fighting between the Israeli military and Palestinian fighters in Gaza. A tacit truce was reached with the help of Egypt, but Israel has now broken it decisively."
::::Third source: "On November 14, two days after Palestinian factions in Gaza agree to a truce following several days of violence, Israel assassinates the leader of Hamas' military wing, Ahmed Jabari"
::::If you need further confirmation that Israel broke a truce and assassinated Jabari - just give a shout - there are dozens more sources; I have not even started with the Human Rights NGOs.
Now that I've shown you mine, you show me yours. And please, don't stoop to going back to before the truce was announced. That would be plain silly.[[User:Erictheenquirer|Erictheenquirer]] ([[User talk:Erictheenquirer|talk]]) 15:50, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
:Gershon is one of several opinions, and it doesn't belong to the lead, which already shows both points of view. Your proposed addition is repeated and disputed content. Just because it suits your politics, it doesn't need to be said twice. I think you refuse to [[wp:get the point]].--[[User:Super Cable Guy|Super Cable Guy]] ([[User talk:Super Cable Guy|talk]]) 19:46, 24 December 2014 (UTC)


== "Bombing of media facilities" section ==
== Duplicate information at end of Background section ==


The end of the Background section seems to contain some duplicate information. The last two sections contain the following sentences:
The section was incoherent. I have rearranged the section according to this scheme:
* Casualties
* Israeli justification
* HRW investigation for four of the incidents which they said did not appear to be on military targets
* One separate incident, Al Shrouk incident, which appeared to be on military target. Also give HRW statement on this. It was repeated twice in different paragraphs, I have combined them and added the references in once place.
* Reporters without borders, NYT statement
* NGO monitor statement


"Major General [[Mohammad Ali Jafari]] stated, "We haven't sent any weapons to Gaza because it is under blockade, but we are honoured to announce that we gave them the technology of how to make Fajr-5 missiles." [[Ali Larijani]] said Iran was "honored" to help Gaza's Hamas with "material and military aspects"."
[[User:Kingsindian|Kingsindian]]&nbsp;[[User Talk: Kingsindian|&#9821;]][[Special:Contributions/Kingsindian|&#9818;]] 16:44, 12 April 2015 (UTC)


"However, the commander of the Iranian Revolutionary Guards, Major General Mohammad Ali Jafari stated "We haven't sent any weapons to Gaza because it is under blockade, but we are honoured to announce that we gave them the technology of how to make Fajr-5 missiles." Meanwhile, Ali Larijani said Iran was "honored" to help Gaza's Hamas with "material and military aspects"."
== Massacre ==


Can the text be changed here so that these sentences are only mentioned once? [[User:Youngrubby|Youngrubby]] ([[User talk:Youngrubby|talk]]) 19:24, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
This article has been linked to at [[Template:Massacres against Palestinians]]. If you have an opinion about it, please participate in [[Template talk:Massacres against Palestinians#Massacre|the discussion]].[[User_talk:WarKosign|&#8220;]][[User:WarKosign|WarKosign]][[Special:Contributions/WarKosign|&#8221;]] 06:03, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 10:40, 10 July 2024

Title violates NPOV rules

[edit]

Hello all,

In looking at some of the articles on the various Gaza-Israeli conflicts, it's obvious that this article violates NPOV rules by adopting the Israeli operational codename for the war. It's obvious that if this article were called by the Palestinian operational name, it would also violate the NPOV rules. As per the other articles, it should be renamed. Because this might be argued, I figured I'd post to the talk page first before making this change. It would require some alterations in the article body as well to recognize and equally place the two names given to the war by opposing sides. Tarek (talk) 08:06, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Its WP:COMMONNAME and have proper move discussion if you want to rename--Shrike (talk) 09:02, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 23 June 2018

[edit]

Remove the comma in the first paragraph after 'killing' so that the sentence is grammatically correct and reads 'killing of' rather than 'killing, of' Nickyschlobs (talk) 07:20, 23 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

 Done--QueerFilmNerd (talk) 09:17, 23 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Move discussion in progress

[edit]

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Operation Autumn Clouds which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 18:31, 8 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Spelling

[edit]

There is a typo involving the but it s typed ths.

Corrected. Thanks Cannolis (talk) 02:33, 30 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Duplicate information at end of Background section

[edit]

The end of the Background section seems to contain some duplicate information. The last two sections contain the following sentences:

"Major General Mohammad Ali Jafari stated, "We haven't sent any weapons to Gaza because it is under blockade, but we are honoured to announce that we gave them the technology of how to make Fajr-5 missiles." Ali Larijani said Iran was "honored" to help Gaza's Hamas with "material and military aspects"."

"However, the commander of the Iranian Revolutionary Guards, Major General Mohammad Ali Jafari stated "We haven't sent any weapons to Gaza because it is under blockade, but we are honoured to announce that we gave them the technology of how to make Fajr-5 missiles." Meanwhile, Ali Larijani said Iran was "honored" to help Gaza's Hamas with "material and military aspects"."

Can the text be changed here so that these sentences are only mentioned once? Youngrubby (talk) 19:24, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:2012_Gaza_War&oldid=1233684257"